Nope. Same reason that I haven't considered considered Ashen Ghoul or Nether Shadow; there's really no purpose in having that many creatures in your graveyard. Doing so makes Relic or Crypt hurt significantly more.
This deck is really fun to play, but is just toooo slow. You need to get to 4+ mana to do anything at all. I tried adding a bit more green, and Wall of Roots seems solid. It helps both with the vulnerability to early beaters like Wild Nacatl and smooths out the mana a bit. I kinda want to try out Wall of Blossoms, too...
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Everything is true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true, false, and meaningless in some sense. Repeat this 666 times and you will reach enlightenment.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
This deck is really fun to play, but is just toooo slow. You need to get to 4+ mana to do anything at all. I tried adding a bit more green, and Wall of Roots seems solid. It helps both with the vulnerability to early beaters like Wild Nacatl and smooths out the mana a bit. I kinda want to try out Wall of Blossoms, too...
Where are you getting 4 mana? Either you've butchered the deck to pieces or you're running the old build, and even then, not much costs beyond 3.
It's not that hard to do most of your stuff with 2 or 3, but the deck does take off with 4-5. You make it sound like the curve starts at 4, which just isn't true (mana curve broken down on previous page).
Real quick:
If you abuse the nightmareeffect on a dancing creature, will it still get exiled?
Quote from magiccards.info »
10/4/2004: Corpse Dance only exiles the card if the card is still on the battlefield at the beginning of the end step.
By sacrificing the creature, this stops Corpse Dance from exiling it. This is opposed to unearth, where the creature gets exiled at EOT *or* if it would leave play.
I think he means things don't go nuts until then. For me, magic number is 5. Go Maw, sac to Carrion Feeder, Tortured existence with Krovikan Horror, Maw again, sac to Carrion Feeder, swing. Fun times. Oh, and same goes for Mesmeric Fiend. So how about this: it doesn't have a high curve, but it is mana-hungry.
Also, @poppeleseed:
What Buried Alive piles do you normally make?
Also, I don't think Twisted Abomination is a good replacement for Chrome Mox in the budget list. Although he's cool as a "thinning" engine, he shouldn't be counted as a mana source. So, starting from your Sample Budget Decklist, I'm going to take 2 of the Abominations out, and move in 2 swamps. Also, what does your sideboard look like?
Do you have enough "sacrifice a creature" cards to trick "the nightmare effect"?
You only have Carrion Feeder and Krovikan Horror, but Krovikan has 4cc and needs 1 mana to activate. If you can support them, perhaps Thoughtpicker Witch could be useful too to soft-lock your opponent (making him draws only lands).
I think that you need a non-creature card to make "the nightmare effects" with a card that the opponent can't remove easily, but I can't find a black one. Some non-creature funny effects in other colors (or colorless): Altar of Dementia Goblin Bombardment Martyr's Cause Spawning Pit
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Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Started testing Grave Pact as a two-of, and it seems perfect in this deck. It turns things like Shriekmaw and Fleshbag Marauder into card advantage by allowing you to two-for-one your opponent. It does not, however, work well with Faceless Butcher, so I may cut those in favor of more Fleshbag Marauders in case I decide to keep Grave Pact.
I tried playtesting against LED dredge, vial affinity, reanimator, mighty quinn today.
Dredge
Game 1:
He won the die roll and played first.
I didn't have anything useful MB against him so just lay lands, he comboed off on turn 3 and I lost.
Game 2:
Boarded in +4 Faerie Macabre -2 Mesmeric Fiend -1 Puppeteer Clique -1 Undead Gladiator (don't have extirpates yet).
I mulligan to 5 to get 1 faerie in (the prior hands did not have any gy hate). He dredged and combo off on turn 4, but not before i removed his flamekin and dread return.
0-1
Affinity
Game 1:
I won the die roll and started first. Turn 1 swamp TE, he played seat, thoper and worker. Turn 2 swamp hymn, hitting a ravager and frogmite, he played vial and enforcer. Turn 3 got a fleshbag, mox imprint tombstalker, he sacs thoper. Turn 4 I managed to get the engine going and he lost after that.
Game 2:
He got a quick start, and the game ends on turn 4.
Game 3:
Pretty much the same as game 1. But he got out MoE one after another. Got lucky and topdecked a butcher to remove one MoE before the second one came in. But had no land, eventually drew a feeder then a land, and established a lock and won.
1-1
Reanimator
Game 1:
I won the die roll and played a TE turn one as I had no 1cc disruption. He apparently got a god hand and played turn 1 underground sea, petal, entomb iona and reanimate. GG
Game 2:
Boarded in +4 Faerie Macabre -1 Faceless Butcher -1 Tombstalker -1 Undead Gladiator -1 Terastodon.
I mulli to 5 to at least get 1 faerie in my hand. I played swamp, TE. He drew and passed, discarding 1 iona. I turn 2 i played another land and passed. He played a sea and petal again, and cast reanimate, i trigger faerie to remove iona. the reanimate fizzled. He sacs the petal to cast extirpate on my faerie, there goes my little gy hate. I played buried alive on my next turn but he daze it. Next turn he lay a sea, and end. I drew a tombstalker and had no land. He played a fetch and petal and entomb exhume an iona. GG
1-2
Mighty Quinn
Game 1:
I won the die roll. I played swamp, mox imprinting my 2nd TE. Hymn, I got his E Dragon and O ring. He drew and played plains and grindstone. Turn 3, I cast buried alive, bringing a mesmeric fiend, a horror and 1 feeder, returning horror at EOT. Turn 2 he lay yet another land and cast painter's servant. Turn 3, drew shriekmaw, I drop horror to get mesmeric fiend and cast hopefully to see what's in his hand, i saw a plains, 2 StP and 1 Abeyance. He comboed off and I lost.
Game 2:
I began with duress to see a hand with 2 chants, 1 scepter, 3 plains and 1 e dragon, hit the chant. He played a chant and go. Turn 2 I got no more disruption, so I play a land and cast TE. He cast scepter imprinting chant. Then turn 3 onwards the game dragged under the scepter chant until he drew a sacred mesa and beat for the win.
1-3
I think I might have made a quite a few mistakes and play errors, so feel free to correct me (i'm also testing out a build, so feel free to correct my list too, I'm not too familiar with the deck).
I'm playing in the budget version, and I flat out don't like Tombstalker in it. Sure, getting a card or two out of a grave is nice, but otherwise, it can clog up the hand.
I'm also playing budget, but I've never had a problem with Tombstalker. Running it at 2, it's rare to see early, and if you do see it in your opening hand, you can pitch it to Totured Existence or Zombie Infestation, if you run it. However, I rarely have troubles casting it. Again, this may be because of Zombie Infestation, but I usually have a lot for Tombstalker to eat, and even if I don't, bringing a Tombstalker back with Corpse Dance isn't a bad deal.
I would like to announce that I am retarded (please leave all flaming and/or trolling to pm's). Formerly, I have asserted my concern regarding dredge (or more specifically, my concern about burying a Krovikan Horror under junk). After pulling my head out of my own ass, I remembered a rule specific to this situation:
Quote from Comprehensive Rules »
404.3. If an effect or rule puts two or more cards into the graveyard at the same time, the owner of those cards may arrange them in any order.
This being said, dredge not only offers us recurring food for Tortured Existence, but can also feed it and offer us another way to get big threats into the grave (say, for Corpse Dance). Creatures with dredge are fairly limited, and I probably wouldn't run more than one or two, as dredging keeps you from drawing cards that let you abuse dredge.
Necroplasm. Necroplasm. You know you want too.....
But in all seriousness, Necroplasm. If Zoo doesn't kill it that turn, they lose their 1 drops. Then their 2 drops. Then he blows himself up, but can even take care of giant Knights.
Necroplasm is also nine damage over four turns. Which, I'm sad to say, isn't that bad for this deck. Dredge seems like a useful tool for the deck. I'll be the madman who suggests Kokusho as a reanimation target. A 10 damage, 15 life swing off corpse dance is no joke.
Necroplasm. Necroplasm. You know you want too.....
But in all seriousness, Necroplasm. If Zoo doesn't kill it that turn, they lose their 1 drops. Then their 2 drops. Then he blows himself up, but can even take care of giant Knights.
I like necroplasm too. Don't forget that turn 1 he eats all tokens and animated manlands; could certainly be fun for a ton of matchups. Another thing you can do with it:
Corpse Dance at end of their turn. Necroplasm gets a counter during your upkeep, and during the beginning of your end step, you're able to let the 'plasm trigger go off and still sacrifice it to something before the "exile" trigger from the dance goes off.
he'll never eat an animated manland, sadly. they turn down the same time his ability checks. if there are lots of tokens, though, he'll happily eat those, but only on your turn.
he'll never eat an animated manland, sadly. they turn down the same time his ability checks. if there are lots of tokens, though, he'll happily eat those, but only on your turn.
Actually, yes it will. Necroplasm goes off at the beginning of the end step. Mishra's Factory (or any manland) stays a creature until the cleanup step.
ah, then I apologize. so you should drop it as a surprise effect after they animate one?
Unfortunately, that's the only way he'll be able to legitimately hit one. Doesn't mean that you can't throw a less useful creature into a Factory, then drop him post-combat.
Tokens, it's wonderful. Even hitting 1s and 2s isn't unreasonable (Mongoose and Taromgoyf). The fact that it gets around Shroud is amazing, too
I began testing a little more extensively last night. Things I learned:
This deck eats it to leyline. Mono-black, you need to out aggro them (not very easy). Green/white splash, you need to have a way to get rid of it. Reverent Silence or Tranquil Domain works as an easy way to clear them out for green.
Stifle hurts. Especially versus merfolk and tempothresh, since all of our removal can be hit by it. This slows us down, and forces us to either wait until they're tapped out or strip it from their hand.
Spell Snare - It's really not all that great against us. Game 1, count on it either being a dead card against us, or seeing them pitch it to force. It really only hits 6 slots in our maindeck.
Could someone post more decklists? How good is deck on the third page?
What about zombie infestation and necroplasm?
Obviously you wouldn't want to run Zombie Infestation alongside Necroplasm. Right now, I'm testing 'plasm as a general removal, although his ability to be used as a pseudo-horror is also nice. The dredge mechanic isn't terrible, but I wouldn't rely too heavily on it; doing so leaves you much more susceptible to grave hate.
Not too much is changed from mono-black to green splash in the main deck; it's for the sideboard. If you're on a less restricted budget, you can use Bayou over tomb.
Puppeteer Clique has been doing really well, as it steals twice. It's hilarious against Dredge and Pox; stealing Nether Spirit or Bloodghast can really screw with their gameplan.
I'm still not sure about Beseech the Queen, but I'm not sure what to replace it with.
Someone suggested Oversold Cemetery. Have you ever considered that?
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
Nope. Same reason that I haven't considered considered Ashen Ghoul or Nether Shadow; there's really no purpose in having that many creatures in your graveyard. Doing so makes Relic or Crypt hurt significantly more.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
If you abuse the nightmare effect on a dancing creature, will it still get exiled?
Where are you getting 4 mana? Either you've butchered the deck to pieces or you're running the old build, and even then, not much costs beyond 3.
It's not that hard to do most of your stuff with 2 or 3, but the deck does take off with 4-5. You make it sound like the curve starts at 4, which just isn't true (mana curve broken down on previous page).
By sacrificing the creature, this stops Corpse Dance from exiling it. This is opposed to unearth, where the creature gets exiled at EOT *or* if it would leave play.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Also, @poppeleseed:
What Buried Alive piles do you normally make?
Also, I don't think Twisted Abomination is a good replacement for Chrome Mox in the budget list. Although he's cool as a "thinning" engine, he shouldn't be counted as a mana source. So, starting from your Sample Budget Decklist, I'm going to take 2 of the Abominations out, and move in 2 swamps. Also, what does your sideboard look like?
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
[180 classic cube]
Dredge
Game 1:
He won the die roll and played first.
I didn't have anything useful MB against him so just lay lands, he comboed off on turn 3 and I lost.
Game 2:
Boarded in +4 Faerie Macabre -2 Mesmeric Fiend -1 Puppeteer Clique -1 Undead Gladiator (don't have extirpates yet).
I mulligan to 5 to get 1 faerie in (the prior hands did not have any gy hate). He dredged and combo off on turn 4, but not before i removed his flamekin and dread return.
0-1
Affinity
Game 1:
I won the die roll and started first. Turn 1 swamp TE, he played seat, thoper and worker. Turn 2 swamp hymn, hitting a ravager and frogmite, he played vial and enforcer. Turn 3 got a fleshbag, mox imprint tombstalker, he sacs thoper. Turn 4 I managed to get the engine going and he lost after that.
Game 2:
He got a quick start, and the game ends on turn 4.
Game 3:
Pretty much the same as game 1. But he got out MoE one after another. Got lucky and topdecked a butcher to remove one MoE before the second one came in. But had no land, eventually drew a feeder then a land, and established a lock and won.
1-1
Reanimator
Game 1:
I won the die roll and played a TE turn one as I had no 1cc disruption. He apparently got a god hand and played turn 1 underground sea, petal, entomb iona and reanimate. GG
Game 2:
Boarded in +4 Faerie Macabre -1 Faceless Butcher -1 Tombstalker -1 Undead Gladiator -1 Terastodon.
I mulli to 5 to at least get 1 faerie in my hand. I played swamp, TE. He drew and passed, discarding 1 iona. I turn 2 i played another land and passed. He played a sea and petal again, and cast reanimate, i trigger faerie to remove iona. the reanimate fizzled. He sacs the petal to cast extirpate on my faerie, there goes my little gy hate. I played buried alive on my next turn but he daze it. Next turn he lay a sea, and end. I drew a tombstalker and had no land. He played a fetch and petal and entomb exhume an iona. GG
1-2
Mighty Quinn
Game 1:
I won the die roll. I played swamp, mox imprinting my 2nd TE. Hymn, I got his E Dragon and O ring. He drew and played plains and grindstone. Turn 3, I cast buried alive, bringing a mesmeric fiend, a horror and 1 feeder, returning horror at EOT. Turn 2 he lay yet another land and cast painter's servant. Turn 3, drew shriekmaw, I drop horror to get mesmeric fiend and cast hopefully to see what's in his hand, i saw a plains, 2 StP and 1 Abeyance. He comboed off and I lost.
Game 2:
I began with duress to see a hand with 2 chants, 1 scepter, 3 plains and 1 e dragon, hit the chant. He played a chant and go. Turn 2 I got no more disruption, so I play a land and cast TE. He cast scepter imprinting chant. Then turn 3 onwards the game dragged under the scepter chant until he drew a sacred mesa and beat for the win.
1-3
I think I might have made a quite a few mistakes and play errors, so feel free to correct me (i'm also testing out a build, so feel free to correct my list too, I'm not too familiar with the deck).
It's not optimised but here's my list.
18 Swamps
// 18 Creatures
4 Carrion Feeder
3 Krovikan Horror
2 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Shriekmaw
1 Tombstalker
1 Undead Gladiator
1 Terastodon
1 Puppeteer Clique
4 Tortured Existence
3 Buried Alive
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Corpse Dance
3 Skeletal Scrying
4 Chrome Mox
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
[180 classic cube]
This being said, dredge not only offers us recurring food for Tortured Existence, but can also feed it and offer us another way to get big threats into the grave (say, for Corpse Dance). Creatures with dredge are fairly limited, and I probably wouldn't run more than one or two, as dredging keeps you from drawing cards that let you abuse dredge.
Card descriptions to follow once I begin testing.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
But in all seriousness, Necroplasm. If Zoo doesn't kill it that turn, they lose their 1 drops. Then their 2 drops. Then he blows himself up, but can even take care of giant Knights.
I am petitioning to get players to stop complaining about mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
I like necroplasm too. Don't forget that turn 1 he eats all tokens and animated manlands; could certainly be fun for a ton of matchups. Another thing you can do with it:
Corpse Dance at end of their turn. Necroplasm gets a counter during your upkeep, and during the beginning of your end step, you're able to let the 'plasm trigger go off and still sacrifice it to something before the "exile" trigger from the dance goes off.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Actually, yes it will. Necroplasm goes off at the beginning of the end step. Mishra's Factory (or any manland) stays a creature until the cleanup step.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Unfortunately, that's the only way he'll be able to legitimately hit one. Doesn't mean that you can't throw a less useful creature into a Factory, then drop him post-combat.
Tokens, it's wonderful. Even hitting 1s and 2s isn't unreasonable (Mongoose and Taromgoyf). The fact that it gets around Shroud is amazing, too
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
This deck eats it to leyline. Mono-black, you need to out aggro them (not very easy). Green/white splash, you need to have a way to get rid of it. Reverent Silence or Tranquil Domain works as an easy way to clear them out for green.
Stifle hurts. Especially versus merfolk and tempothresh, since all of our removal can be hit by it. This slows us down, and forces us to either wait until they're tapped out or strip it from their hand.
Spell Snare - It's really not all that great against us. Game 1, count on it either being a dead card against us, or seeing them pitch it to force. It really only hits 6 slots in our maindeck.
Other thoughts to follow.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Thanks Darth Monkey
What about zombie infestation and necroplasm?
Obviously you wouldn't want to run Zombie Infestation alongside Necroplasm. Right now, I'm testing 'plasm as a general removal, although his ability to be used as a pseudo-horror is also nice. The dredge mechanic isn't terrible, but I wouldn't rely too heavily on it; doing so leaves you much more susceptible to grave hate.
As for decklists, here's what I've been testing:
Mono-black:
2x Mesmeric Fiend
2x Necroplasm
2x Tombstalker
1x Faceless Butcher
1x Fleshbag Marauder
3x Shriekmaw
3x Krovikan Horror
1x Puppeteer Clique
1x Terastodon
3x Duress
3x Buried Alive
3x Corpse Dance
4x Tortured Existence
1x Beseech the Queen
18x Swamp
3x Pithing Needle
3x Infest
1x Kagemaro
1x Extirpate
1x Faceless Butcher
2x Golgari Brownscale
Green Splash
Not too much is changed from mono-black to green splash in the main deck; it's for the sideboard. If you're on a less restricted budget, you can use Bayou over tomb.
Puppeteer Clique has been doing really well, as it steals twice. It's hilarious against Dredge and Pox; stealing Nether Spirit or Bloodghast can really screw with their gameplan.
I'm still not sure about Beseech the Queen, but I'm not sure what to replace it with.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.