You ware right Pinguster, Noxious isn´t as good as I thought. I opted for a second Stinkweed Imp in its pace since STP and PTE both exile creatures and the Imp is a much needed engine part in this deck.
Lectrys: I´ve tryed the Stronghold for a wile, but ended taking it out. The fact that make´s us vunerable to Wasteland sucks, also becomes clunky whiule trying to cast a turn 3 gatekeeper. I believed that it would be Tortured#5 but ended Chittering rats Myself denying me a draw step every time I used it. harsh but true. Specially considering that is the most expensive card in my collection and I want to use it in every deck I play (wich is curretly this one).
As far as Budget concern goes I´m happy with the list. The second Beseech should be another Persecutor, and the Disks would turn into Caba Therapies for speed reasons only, since It´s a solid sweeper (leaves Planeswalkers alive though.
The deck still suffers from really fast aggro rushes as well as combo since topdecked bombs are allways in their favor.
If we have just a little time to stabilize, any game goes into our favor.
You ware right Pinguster, Noxious isn´t as good as I thought. I opted for a second Stinkweed Imp in its pace since STP and PTE both exile creatures and the Imp is a much needed engine part in this deck.
Lectrys: I´ve tryed the Stronghold for a wile, but ended taking it out. The fact that make´s us vunerable to Wasteland sucks, also becomes clunky whiule trying to cast a turn 3 gatekeeper. I believed that it would be Tortured#5 but ended Chittering rats Myself denying me a draw step every time I used it. harsh but true. Specially considering that is the most expensive card in my collection and I want to use it in every deck I play (wich is curretly this one).
As far as Budget concern goes I´m happy with the list. The second Beseech should be another Persecutor, and the Disks would turn into Caba Therapies for speed reasons only, since It´s a solid sweeper (leaves Planeswalkers alive though.
The deck still suffers from really fast aggro rushes as well as combo since topdecked bombs are allways in their favor.
If we have just a little time to stabilize, any game goes into our favor.
Fixed. Deck tags help out immensely. Instead of [cards]stuff[/c ards] w/o the space there you can replace "cards" with "deck".
You shouldn't have problems with aggro types (Zoo and friends). However, if you keep getting hit with Empty the Warrens, side in a couple of Infest. Super blowout card.
I gotta say, I greatly enjoy the use of Grafted Wargear as a budget replacement for Jitte in Genio's list. Slapping one on a Vampire Nighthawk must be pretty satisfying.
I gotta say, I greatly enjoy the use of Grafted Wargear as a budget replacement for Jitte in Genio's list. Slapping one on a Vampire Nighthawk must be pretty satisfying.
Equip 0 goes a long way.
Another option I´ve tested was replacing both Nighthawk and the Wargear for Crypt Rats and Basilisk Collar but ended being a situational bomb, a glass cannon more or less.
Goyf is green. He dies to 'maw. Seriously folks, just run the list. Proxy it up and run it. Then you'll understand. We're optimized to take on creature based decks.
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I play this:
Standard:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
I agree with Spawnman62, even with a budget list like mine Creature decks are favorably to say the least. Sometimes fast aggro rusher ARE a problem, but i´ve never get to test Pinguster´s list, wich I think is the most optimized to date.
@Khamul: Never ever cut Hymn, is CA by itself, can be soulcrushing when timed correctly and is a counterspell magnet, that will let you resolve your threats.
I´m running Stiky as a 2-off and I wouldn´t cut him, he is just very good. i know it looks like crap at first glance, but Flying Deathtouch recurring Equip carrier that also dredges into more beef is just to good to pass up. It sucks as a clock by himself, but it just stops aggro cold.
Given the post directly above yours, this is a weak plan.
Surgical Extraction doesn't do much on its own--the argument has been done to death: Unless you are fortunate enough to hit multiple copies of a card in your opponent's hand, Surgical Extraction is card disadvantage at the sake of potentially reducing an opponent's card quality. You cannot be assured that your opponent has the cards in hand/would have drawn the cards you exiled, and unless the opponent was so dependent on having access to certain cards in deck or the graveyard, you would often have been better off just having a card that actually effects the board.
Extraction + Wasteland might hurt a deck badly if they only play a limited number of dual lands and no basics in the color you're trying to cut.
Extraction + Discard doesn't do anything unless you see that an opponent has multiple copies of a card that is actually worth exiling.
Basically, that's too many "ifs" to make Extraction anything more than a sideboard card against decks that actually outright lose to Extraction on key pieces in their graveyard. You aren't running bad cards to make Extraction good, but having to rely on other cards to make Extraction relevant means that it itself isn't good enough to warrant inclusion in your deck.
Cabal Therapy isn't a bad card. It is an outlet to reoccur Gatekeeper with tortured existence in play. The ability to recast our creatures is kinda the whole point of the deck.
I'm not saying it's a great card either. I wouldn't run a full set of them in this deck, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth considering in the deck list.
Percy on the other hand..... that's just a bad card lol
Cabal Therapy isn't a bad card. It is an outlet to reoccur Gatekeeper with tortured existence in play. The ability to recast our creatures is kinda the whole point of the deck.
I'm not saying it's a great card either. I wouldn't run a full set of them in this deck, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth considering in the deck list.
Percy on the other hand..... that's just a bad card lol
Cabal Therapy isn't a bad card. It's just bad in this deck. What does Cabal Therapy do? On its own (AKA you shouldn't just be playing this card if you're assuming you're going to see your opponent's hand before you cast it), Cabal Therapy protects you from cards that are so crippling to your strategy that you would be willing to blind name them and suffer the card disadvantage just to know that your opponent doesn't have them. Does this deck have a card like that which is not only so powerful against it but also so frequently played that you would be willing to lose a card only to make sure your opponent doesn't have it? If not, I'd say that you're effectively playing Cabal Therapy only as a sacrifice outlet, and you wouldn't just play a card in your deck that reads "B: You sacrifice a creature." With a creature to sacrifice, it can become at worst a 1-for-2, but that still doesn't seem worth it.
I see. I thought it could be a good idea when i watched this final and how Tempo RUG scoops after having their Tropical Islands exiled. Anyway, Canadian doesn't depend so much on green now the have Delver and there aren't many other decks that depend so much on splashing a color. I was also looking for something to improve our worst match-ups, which IMHO are combo and Iona (both Reanimator and Dredge). Discard is not always enought to beat combo, and removing tutor seems fine to slow them down. Sideboarding Leyline of Sanctity seems very risky, making you mull hard to find it (or not).
Why would you want to be messing around with cutting RUG Delver decks off of green mana when you can just kill Tarmogoyf indefinitely? That's the kind of thing that I'm talking about. Playing Extraction just to hit lands is only something I have ever seen done against that one deck, honestly.
Surgical Extraction works well against all of the decks you're saying are bad matches, but are they so bad that you're willing to make your deck objectively weaker against all of the other decks that this deck is not weak against?
I see. I thought it could be a good idea when i watched this final and how Tempo RUG scoops after having their Tropical Islands exiled. Anyway, Canadian doesn't depend so much on green now the have Delver and there aren't many other decks that depend so much on splashing a color. I was also looking for something to improve our worst match-ups, which IMHO are combo and Iona (both Reanimator and Dredge). Discard is not always enought to beat combo, and removing tutor seems fine to slow them down. Sideboarding Leyline of Sanctity seems very risky, making you mull hard to find it (or not).
Cabal Therapy isn't a bad card. It's just bad in this deck. What does Cabal Therapy do? On its own (AKA you shouldn't just be playing this card if you're assuming you're going to see your opponent's hand before you cast it), Cabal Therapy protects you from cards that are so crippling to your strategy that you would be willing to blind name them and suffer the card disadvantage just to know that your opponent doesn't have them. Does this deck have a card like that which is not only so powerful against it but also so frequently played that you would be willing to lose a card only to make sure your opponent doesn't have it? If not, I'd say that you're effectively playing Cabal Therapy only as a sacrifice outlet, and you wouldn't just play a card in your deck that reads "B: You sacrifice a creature." With a creature to sacrifice, it can become at worst a 1-for-2, but that still doesn't seem worth it.
You're preaching to the choir here my friend. As I said in the post you quoted me in. "Cabal Therapy isn't a bad card".
If it is weak enough you wouldn't run a full set, you shouldn't be playing it turn one anyways. If it was game 2 and I just lost game 1 to combo, you bet your sweet bippy I'm going to blindly name something just to make sure my opponent doesn't have it. Even if you aren't playing combo and you blindly name something, (which you wouldn't, because you wouldn't play it turn 1 since that is what Duress or Tortured Existence is for) you get information. It's a 3-for-1. Information, Card Advantage, outlet to sacrafice and/or reoccur a creature.
Like I said before, it isn't a bad card. I wouldn't play a full set in my build. Just because it doesn't belong in the version of the deck you have put together doesn't mean it doesn't belong at all.
You're preaching to the choir here my friend. As I said in the post you quoted me in. "Cabal Therapy isn't a bad card".
If it is weak enough you wouldn't run a full set, you shouldn't be playing it turn one anyways. If it was game 2 and I just lost game 1 to combo, you bet your sweet bippy I'm going to blindly name something just to make sure my opponent doesn't have it. Even if you aren't playing combo and you blindly name something, (which you wouldn't, because you wouldn't play it turn 1 since that is what Duress or Tortured Existence is for) you get information. It's a 3-for-1. Information, Card Advantage, outlet to sacrafice and/or reoccur a creature.
Like I said before, it isn't a bad card. I wouldn't play a full set in my build. Just because it doesn't belong in the version of the deck you have put together doesn't mean it doesn't belong at all.
I am contending that it in fact does not belong here at all. As I previously said, the sacrifice outlet ability is supposed to be an added bonus because you shouldn't be happy with playing cards just to kill your creatures. And the primary use of Cabal Therapy isn't an effect I think this deck wants or needs in the mainboard, nor am I entirely sure that it is strong enough to warrant sideboard inclusion over stronger answers.
You wouldn't optimally want to pay one mana and a card just for information, and that is literally all that Cabal Therapy will do a good number of times you cast it unless you're lucky, a Jedi, or you never play the card without leading with a Duress or something. Peek isn't a card that I think has ever been good enough for Legacy, and it at least has the decency to replace itself; what you're actually doing in a lot of situations is 1-for-0'ing yourself by casting Cabal Therapy. I admit this is the worst case, yes, but the point I'm trying to make is that it takes other cards to make Cabal Therapy into something that is marginally worth the cost of even having the card in your deck. This might be where we disagree: The primary function of Cabal Therapy is to be 100% sure that your opponent has zero copies of [card you hate most] in hand. I believe that the number of cards/decks which contain cards so debilitating to your strategy that you would reasonably want to just have the information that your opponent can't do X to you to is so low that I do not believe it is feasible to include a card with this function in your mainboard.
Your example with combo holds weight in that you would want a card like Cabal Therapy against it, but where we are disagreeing is that I think that having Cabal Therapy in your deck in game one makes your deck weaker against everything non-combo, and I don't think that the loss you take there is worth gaining that bit of advantage in your preboard combo match. There are also probably better answers available to you when you are building your sideboard, as well.
Even then, I'm not entirely sure what's going on here to make you want a sacrifice outlet in this deck. As you said, the ability to recast creatures is the entire point of the deck...but the reason you want to be recasting your creatures shouldn't be because you're killing them off yourself.
And the primary use of Cabal Therapy isn't an effect I think this deck wants or needs......
The primary effect isn't something the deck wants or needs????
So what do you play instead of Duress, or Hymn, or Liliana. Funny how 3 cards that are commonly used in the deck share the effect of Cabal Therapy.
The primary function of Cabal Therapy is to be 100% sure that your opponent has zero copies of [card you hate most] in hand.
Your totally right. Cards that tutor for answers to an opponents deck never get played in legacy. You certainly would never know that they have a pro black sword in their hand after casting Stoneforge Mystic. Nobody plays Maverick or Stoneblade anymore, right? Intuition.... What's that card do?
Even then, I'm not entirely sure what's going on here to make you want a sacrifice outlet in this deck. As you said, the ability to recast creatures is the entire point of the deck...but the reason you want to be recasting your creatures shouldn't be because you're killing them off yourself.
It's very hard to imagine a Legacy match-up where one creature being played could cause you to lose since you didn't have a way to reoccur a creature next turn. Protection from color x, Anihilator 6, equiped creature has protection from, opponents hand size goes to zero. Those kind of creatures never get played in Legacy.
I definitely wouldn't want to get rid of Bob when I'm low on life and I'm poised to win as long as I don't flip Shriekmaw or K-Horror next turn. I can't think of one good reason why I would want that option at all in my deck.
It's a toolbox card, like the way Phyrexian Revoker was in the list a ways back. Despite the points you listed, which are valid, I still think it has a place at the table. Either as a Duress/Therapy split, SB or a budget replacement for Liliana or Thoughtseize. I never said it was the go to, end all be all card. I just think that if someone is putting together a list, it should be a consideration because it does have it's uses.
I guess in the end we will just have to agree to disagree.
Discard in this deck has two functions, and both are important. When I play, I find that I often will use discard more to put an opponent off of their game than to prevent an opponent from messing with mine. For the sake of this discussion, I am saying that Cabal Therapy isn't a discard spell, in that it cannot disrupt an opponent as effectively as even terrible discard like Funeral Charm or something. Cabal Therapy is a card that solely provides you with the information that your opponent isn't holding a specific card. Not too awesome. You aren't disrupting your opponent if your opponent doesn't have that card. Therefore, Cabal Therapy is most often utilized in combo decks where a very specific card is the only relevant card and as such it is more often worth it to spend a mana and a card to hand check your opponent. This deck is not that deck.
Everything you said about Cabal Therapy as a discard spell applies to Thoughtseize, except Thoughtseize does it better because you can actually cast it even when your opponent isn't going out of their way to tell you what to name. Basically, you can cast Thoughtseize on turn one and actually use it to do something to your opponent every time they don't just automatically concede to you by keeping a seven land hand.
It seems like you're advocating playing the far inferior spell just to save yourself in weird corner cases, and that's not playing to win--that's adopting a losing mentality before you've even played your first game. I would say that the number of times that Cabal Therapy saves your ass will be far lower than the number of times that Cabal Therapy will be that suboptimal Peek I was getting at before.
Playing Cabal Therapy to kill your Dark Confidant is bad because you're forgoing the ability to disrupt your opponent in the beginning of the game for the sake of having a panic button for when you already have a freaking Dark Confidant in play. You should be drawing enough other spells to have either killed your opponent or you should have found one of your other removal spells (since the deck is literally filled with them). If neither of those has happened yet, you're unlucky and you're going to lose the game regardless. Playing Cabal Therapy to kill your own creatures so you can TE them back to deal with hard-to-solve creatures is bad because I would posit that you can solve those creatures with better gameplay. I concede to you that this might be a presumptuous claim--but even if I am wrong, it is folly to assume that the best answer is to objectively weaken the deck by playing ill-fitting cards just in case these situations come up and there was just no way you could've sandbagged that Gatekeeper against the deck with the Mirran Crusader in it, or whatever the case may be.
Your comparison to Phyrexian Revoker does not hold weight because Phyrexian Revoker actually disrupts your opponent and can actively win the game by being a creature, while Cabal Therapy will literally be setting you back in more cases by being in the deck instead of a card with a better fit.
I wouldn't tell someone to not consider all of their options; I am merely stating that Cabal Therapy is one that you should consider and immediately dismiss if you intend to play the deck optimally, and the reasons why are as I have outlined above. Yes, you never said it was the best card--but defending it the way you have is misleading in that it implies that there are merits to playing this card over other cards, which I do not believe to be the case in any way. The argument that you're using basically feels like the same thing a person would say about a card like Gate to Phyrexia in this deck. But yes, we should agree to disagree at this point.
I´ve been reading many of the latests post regardin Therapy yes or no, and saw that is often compared to Thoughtseize. My question is the following: Is thoughtseize really good in this deck? I mean, we already have some solid creature control. Is the lifeloss manageable? Basically if I want to play a second discard spell in the SB (Duress is MD) why not playing IoK instead of it?
Because IoK doesn't cost $$$ and people want to feel validated by their purchase of big money cards instead of an uncommon from a recent set.
The main thing is people will claim that it can grab anything aside from land. It's better if Belcher is played in your meta.... and Jace.... that's about it.
I had to quote this, because I think it's a mistake people make too often. A lot of times you see this cool combo and you want to put it in your deck. This is actually a good combo, but the thing you should be thinking about is "can any of these cards justify its slot on its own?". The answer is no, thus, you shouldn't run them. You want consistency in your decks and whenever you are putting a bad (or non-optimal) card in your list so that another bad card becomes playable, you're better off cutting both.
i must agree with the main point here.. i do like percy but he is not needed at all, i disagree with the therapy though as a 2 of it is amazingly good against combo and or control decks and having a quick way to sac a bob that could kill you an imp to get more beef or even a gatekeeper to recurr him while wrecking an opponnents hand is not bad at all.
alas the disruption suite has been discussed a lot and it all depends on taste or metagame calla.. for me 4 inquisition 2 therapy and 3 hymn plus 2 liliana is the way to go at the moment..
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Standard RUGRUG Ramp
Modern GRTurbo Moon,RRRSkred Red
Legacy BBBNightmare Effect,GUWEnchantress,UWBCephalid Breakfast
Jitte is crucial for those match ups. I was also for a period of time Jitte-less (I traded away some Thoughtseizes to get mine. True Story).
I know the committee won't agree with the approach I used before I was able to put Jitte in, but I'll post it anyways.
For goblins, or any swarm type deck, Phyrexian Obliterator is an absolute power house. For it to be relevant however Dark Ritual is a must. Popular belief will say Dark Ritual and Obliterator are terrible cards, but it isn't if your opponent is playing goblins or zoo and you just dropped Obliterator on turn 2. He is a game changer. Don't try to replace Jitte with a sword of whatever because it won't work tempo wise. Sometimes the mana isn't there for them to be relevant when they need to come out but I hear Vampire Nighthawks are relevant in that match up.
Sure, it "dies to removal duuurrrrr" and "DR is card disadvantage duuuurrrr" etc. etc. etc. But it worked pretty well for me.
i must agree with the main point here.. i do like percy but he is not needed at all, i disagree with the therapy though as a 2 of it is amazingly good against combo and or control decks and having a quick way to sac a bob that could kill you an imp to get more beef or even a gatekeeper to recurr him while wrecking an opponnents hand is not bad at all.
alas the disruption suite has been discussed a lot and it all depends on taste or metagame calla.. for me 4 inquisition 2 therapy and 3 hymn plus 2 liliana is the way to go at the moment..
I'd just like to say thank you for saying that. Since no one else seems to be permitted to have an idea outside of what is considered the norm for this deck at the moment. I personally use a 3 Duress 2 Therapy and 4 hymn split in my build. I would use 2 Liliana's as well, but I don't have them.
I was making a generalistic point of view, not talking directly about Therapy in this deck. The thing is, if you're playing the Percy+Therapy combo, you should ask yourself 2 things:
1) Would you still play Percy if you dropped Therapy from your deck?
2) Would you still play Therapy if you dropped Percy from your deck?
As far as 1) goes, I don't think you would, so Percy has no place in the deck. On the other hand, if you'd still play Therapy without Percy because it interacts greatly with a number of cards in the deck, then you should keep it in. That's what you want: Cards that are great on their own but shine even brighter when combined with a high percentage of the other cards in your deck. This is what makes decks great.
Now, talking about this specific deck, I haven't played a single game with this, but from my experience with Legacy, I don't understand why you're not running 4 Hymn. It's the best discard availabe in the format. It's 2 for 1, it can take just about any card and, if you're lucky, it can destroy a hand. Also, if you happen to draw 2, it's even better. Yes, it's a poor draw when you and your opponent are both in topdeck mode, but then again, all discard has this flaw. Overral, I think Hymn should be a 0-of or a 4-of in every deck. I don't see a situation where any deck would want any other number (maybe I'm wrong, though).
This, sans orange small eye hurting font. Seriously though, test percy with and w/out therapy. Therapy is a good card. Situational, but still good. We just run better stuff.
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Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Standard:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
well well as i said i like percy as a card but in this deck he is not needed, as for the therapy hell yes on its own its always good its a potential 2 for 1 at least and sometimes alot more than that if it happens to give you some interaction bonuses with the rest of your cards thats just swell for me.. i must say that it is a very slill intensive card and im not under estimating anyone but to me that could be the only reason not to run it.
as for me not running 4 hymns, well i played a lot last uear with aun full set and i always hated to draw one of those when i have wrecked my opponnents hand so i did some maths and i came woth that distribution, things have changed nowadays and i probablu need to re think about running thoughtseizes instead of iok but since where i live now there are nl legacy tourneys i dont play this fpomat that often...
oh and please please play and test this deck before even considering to post your opinions because on paper it is really deceiving.
anyway keep the nightmare alive...
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Aside from that never-ending debate, I would like some help with very fast creature decks. I have just played some games vs Non-vial goblins and I've been humiliated every time except when he drew 4 lands in a row with 4 in his starting hand after mulling to six. All my discard is useless since he filled his hand again with Matron and Ringleader, and was able to drop lots of creatures in a few turns. I will definitely try IoK over Duress against these kind of decks, because I only had Shriekmaw/Smother(post-side) in response to T1 Goblin Lackey and T2 Warren Instigator or Goblin Warchief. Also the lack of Jitte affect the match-ups against swarm decks.
I´ve found the same problem, for me is 3x Ratchet Bomb somewere in the 75, some people have suggested Infest as well-
I tried Phyrexian Arena and Street Wraith as a replacement for Bob because I thought the risk of losing 5 life for revealing Shriekmaw or 4 life for Krovikan Horror was terrible.... I was wrong.
Bob really is all that and a bag of chips in this deck. As Pinguster likes to say "If you look carefully at Bob's text it actually reads "You win the game"." People obsess about getting rid of him any way possible as fast as they can.
He is definitely a must if you want to play the list competitively but Sign in Blood seems like a pretty decent replacement if you don't have them or want to pony up the $$$ for them. I haven't tried it personally but it looks better than what I tried. I must also agree that the Jitte's are worth picking up first if you don't have them already.
Honestly yes they are but I'd get jitte before bob.
He actually does though, if they don't kill him you win. It's as simple as that. He absolutely 100% forces a removal spell the turn he is played or else you will win.
QFT, minus 1 thing: Bob LOVES him some 'maw. For reals. The only time you should ever lose to anything with dudes, is when bob decides that you need some 'maw. Just warning you now. This will happen eventually.
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"Failing to Find" Since March 2010.
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Standard:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
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Lectrys: I´ve tryed the Stronghold for a wile, but ended taking it out. The fact that make´s us vunerable to Wasteland sucks, also becomes clunky whiule trying to cast a turn 3 gatekeeper. I believed that it would be Tortured#5 but ended Chittering rats Myself denying me a draw step every time I used it. harsh but true. Specially considering that is the most expensive card in my collection and I want to use it in every deck I play (wich is curretly this one).
As a sidenote my current list goes like this:
As far as Budget concern goes I´m happy with the list. The second Beseech should be another Persecutor, and the Disks would turn into Caba Therapies for speed reasons only, since It´s a solid sweeper (leaves Planeswalkers alive though.
The deck still suffers from really fast aggro rushes as well as combo since topdecked bombs are allways in their favor.
If we have just a little time to stabilize, any game goes into our favor.
Fixed. Deck tags help out immensely. Instead of [cards]stuff[/c ards] w/o the space there you can replace "cards" with "deck".
You shouldn't have problems with aggro types (Zoo and friends). However, if you keep getting hit with Empty the Warrens, side in a couple of Infest. Super blowout card.
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
Equip 0 goes a long way.
Another option I´ve tested was replacing both Nighthawk and the Wargear for Crypt Rats and Basilisk Collar but ended being a situational bomb, a glass cannon more or less.
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
@Khamul: Never ever cut Hymn, is CA by itself, can be soulcrushing when timed correctly and is a counterspell magnet, that will let you resolve your threats.
I´m running Stiky as a 2-off and I wouldn´t cut him, he is just very good. i know it looks like crap at first glance, but Flying Deathtouch recurring Equip carrier that also dredges into more beef is just to good to pass up. It sucks as a clock by himself, but it just stops aggro cold.
Given the post directly above yours, this is a weak plan.
Surgical Extraction doesn't do much on its own--the argument has been done to death: Unless you are fortunate enough to hit multiple copies of a card in your opponent's hand, Surgical Extraction is card disadvantage at the sake of potentially reducing an opponent's card quality. You cannot be assured that your opponent has the cards in hand/would have drawn the cards you exiled, and unless the opponent was so dependent on having access to certain cards in deck or the graveyard, you would often have been better off just having a card that actually effects the board.
Extraction + Wasteland might hurt a deck badly if they only play a limited number of dual lands and no basics in the color you're trying to cut.
Extraction + Discard doesn't do anything unless you see that an opponent has multiple copies of a card that is actually worth exiling.
Basically, that's too many "ifs" to make Extraction anything more than a sideboard card against decks that actually outright lose to Extraction on key pieces in their graveyard. You aren't running bad cards to make Extraction good, but having to rely on other cards to make Extraction relevant means that it itself isn't good enough to warrant inclusion in your deck.
I'm not saying it's a great card either. I wouldn't run a full set of them in this deck, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth considering in the deck list.
Percy on the other hand..... that's just a bad card
Hey!What's going on in here?
YUM!
Cabal Therapy isn't a bad card. It's just bad in this deck. What does Cabal Therapy do? On its own (AKA you shouldn't just be playing this card if you're assuming you're going to see your opponent's hand before you cast it), Cabal Therapy protects you from cards that are so crippling to your strategy that you would be willing to blind name them and suffer the card disadvantage just to know that your opponent doesn't have them. Does this deck have a card like that which is not only so powerful against it but also so frequently played that you would be willing to lose a card only to make sure your opponent doesn't have it? If not, I'd say that you're effectively playing Cabal Therapy only as a sacrifice outlet, and you wouldn't just play a card in your deck that reads "B: You sacrifice a creature." With a creature to sacrifice, it can become at worst a 1-for-2, but that still doesn't seem worth it.
Why would you want to be messing around with cutting RUG Delver decks off of green mana when you can just kill Tarmogoyf indefinitely? That's the kind of thing that I'm talking about. Playing Extraction just to hit lands is only something I have ever seen done against that one deck, honestly.
Surgical Extraction works well against all of the decks you're saying are bad matches, but are they so bad that you're willing to make your deck objectively weaker against all of the other decks that this deck is not weak against?
If that's the angle you were going for I would use Extirpate instead of Surgical Extraction. Slower, but given the match-up, I would value the uncounterable ability far more.
Leyline of the Void for Dredge and Reanimator. Thoughtseize, Sadistic Sacracrament and Mindbreak Trap for combo.
If the main deck is more or less optimized, what are people running in their sideboard?
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You're preaching to the choir here my friend. As I said in the post you quoted me in. "Cabal Therapy isn't a bad card".
If it is weak enough you wouldn't run a full set, you shouldn't be playing it turn one anyways. If it was game 2 and I just lost game 1 to combo, you bet your sweet bippy I'm going to blindly name something just to make sure my opponent doesn't have it. Even if you aren't playing combo and you blindly name something, (which you wouldn't, because you wouldn't play it turn 1 since that is what Duress or Tortured Existence is for) you get information. It's a 3-for-1. Information, Card Advantage, outlet to sacrafice and/or reoccur a creature.
Like I said before, it isn't a bad card. I wouldn't play a full set in my build. Just because it doesn't belong in the version of the deck you have put together doesn't mean it doesn't belong at all.
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I am contending that it in fact does not belong here at all. As I previously said, the sacrifice outlet ability is supposed to be an added bonus because you shouldn't be happy with playing cards just to kill your creatures. And the primary use of Cabal Therapy isn't an effect I think this deck wants or needs in the mainboard, nor am I entirely sure that it is strong enough to warrant sideboard inclusion over stronger answers.
You wouldn't optimally want to pay one mana and a card just for information, and that is literally all that Cabal Therapy will do a good number of times you cast it unless you're lucky, a Jedi, or you never play the card without leading with a Duress or something. Peek isn't a card that I think has ever been good enough for Legacy, and it at least has the decency to replace itself; what you're actually doing in a lot of situations is 1-for-0'ing yourself by casting Cabal Therapy. I admit this is the worst case, yes, but the point I'm trying to make is that it takes other cards to make Cabal Therapy into something that is marginally worth the cost of even having the card in your deck. This might be where we disagree: The primary function of Cabal Therapy is to be 100% sure that your opponent has zero copies of [card you hate most] in hand. I believe that the number of cards/decks which contain cards so debilitating to your strategy that you would reasonably want to just have the information that your opponent can't do X to you to is so low that I do not believe it is feasible to include a card with this function in your mainboard.
Your example with combo holds weight in that you would want a card like Cabal Therapy against it, but where we are disagreeing is that I think that having Cabal Therapy in your deck in game one makes your deck weaker against everything non-combo, and I don't think that the loss you take there is worth gaining that bit of advantage in your preboard combo match. There are also probably better answers available to you when you are building your sideboard, as well.
Even then, I'm not entirely sure what's going on here to make you want a sacrifice outlet in this deck. As you said, the ability to recast creatures is the entire point of the deck...but the reason you want to be recasting your creatures shouldn't be because you're killing them off yourself.
The primary effect isn't something the deck wants or needs????
So what do you play instead of Duress, or Hymn, or Liliana. Funny how 3 cards that are commonly used in the deck share the effect of Cabal Therapy.
Your totally right. Cards that tutor for answers to an opponents deck never get played in legacy. You certainly would never know that they have a pro black sword in their hand after casting Stoneforge Mystic. Nobody plays Maverick or Stoneblade anymore, right? Intuition.... What's that card do?
It's very hard to imagine a Legacy match-up where one creature being played could cause you to lose since you didn't have a way to reoccur a creature next turn. Protection from color x, Anihilator 6, equiped creature has protection from, opponents hand size goes to zero. Those kind of creatures never get played in Legacy.
I definitely wouldn't want to get rid of Bob when I'm low on life and I'm poised to win as long as I don't flip Shriekmaw or K-Horror next turn. I can't think of one good reason why I would want that option at all in my deck.
It's a toolbox card, like the way Phyrexian Revoker was in the list a ways back. Despite the points you listed, which are valid, I still think it has a place at the table. Either as a Duress/Therapy split, SB or a budget replacement for Liliana or Thoughtseize. I never said it was the go to, end all be all card. I just think that if someone is putting together a list, it should be a consideration because it does have it's uses.
I guess in the end we will just have to agree to disagree.
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Everything you said about Cabal Therapy as a discard spell applies to Thoughtseize, except Thoughtseize does it better because you can actually cast it even when your opponent isn't going out of their way to tell you what to name. Basically, you can cast Thoughtseize on turn one and actually use it to do something to your opponent every time they don't just automatically concede to you by keeping a seven land hand.
It seems like you're advocating playing the far inferior spell just to save yourself in weird corner cases, and that's not playing to win--that's adopting a losing mentality before you've even played your first game. I would say that the number of times that Cabal Therapy saves your ass will be far lower than the number of times that Cabal Therapy will be that suboptimal Peek I was getting at before.
Playing Cabal Therapy to kill your Dark Confidant is bad because you're forgoing the ability to disrupt your opponent in the beginning of the game for the sake of having a panic button for when you already have a freaking Dark Confidant in play. You should be drawing enough other spells to have either killed your opponent or you should have found one of your other removal spells (since the deck is literally filled with them). If neither of those has happened yet, you're unlucky and you're going to lose the game regardless. Playing Cabal Therapy to kill your own creatures so you can TE them back to deal with hard-to-solve creatures is bad because I would posit that you can solve those creatures with better gameplay. I concede to you that this might be a presumptuous claim--but even if I am wrong, it is folly to assume that the best answer is to objectively weaken the deck by playing ill-fitting cards just in case these situations come up and there was just no way you could've sandbagged that Gatekeeper against the deck with the Mirran Crusader in it, or whatever the case may be.
Your comparison to Phyrexian Revoker does not hold weight because Phyrexian Revoker actually disrupts your opponent and can actively win the game by being a creature, while Cabal Therapy will literally be setting you back in more cases by being in the deck instead of a card with a better fit.
I wouldn't tell someone to not consider all of their options; I am merely stating that Cabal Therapy is one that you should consider and immediately dismiss if you intend to play the deck optimally, and the reasons why are as I have outlined above. Yes, you never said it was the best card--but defending it the way you have is misleading in that it implies that there are merits to playing this card over other cards, which I do not believe to be the case in any way. The argument that you're using basically feels like the same thing a person would say about a card like Gate to Phyrexia in this deck. But yes, we should agree to disagree at this point.
You mad bro?
You should be. WINNING
Let's not troll people, thanks.
Kors
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The main thing is people will claim that it can grab anything aside from land. It's better if Belcher is played in your meta.... and Jace.... that's about it.
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i must agree with the main point here.. i do like percy but he is not needed at all, i disagree with the therapy though as a 2 of it is amazingly good against combo and or control decks and having a quick way to sac a bob that could kill you an imp to get more beef or even a gatekeeper to recurr him while wrecking an opponnents hand is not bad at all.
alas the disruption suite has been discussed a lot and it all depends on taste or metagame calla.. for me 4 inquisition 2 therapy and 3 hymn plus 2 liliana is the way to go at the moment..
currently playing
Standard RUGRUG Ramp
Modern GRTurbo Moon,RRRSkred Red
Legacy BBBNightmare Effect,GUWEnchantress,UWBCephalid Breakfast
I know the committee won't agree with the approach I used before I was able to put Jitte in, but I'll post it anyways.
For goblins, or any swarm type deck, Phyrexian Obliterator is an absolute power house. For it to be relevant however Dark Ritual is a must. Popular belief will say Dark Ritual and Obliterator are terrible cards, but it isn't if your opponent is playing goblins or zoo and you just dropped Obliterator on turn 2. He is a game changer. Don't try to replace Jitte with a sword of whatever because it won't work tempo wise. Sometimes the mana isn't there for them to be relevant when they need to come out but I hear Vampire Nighthawks are relevant in that match up.
Sure, it "dies to removal duuurrrrr" and "DR is card disadvantage duuuurrrr" etc. etc. etc. But it worked pretty well for me.
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I'd just like to say thank you for saying that. Since no one else seems to be permitted to have an idea outside of what is considered the norm for this deck at the moment. I personally use a 3 Duress 2 Therapy and 4 hymn split in my build. I would use 2 Liliana's as well, but I don't have them.
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This, sans orange small eye hurting font. Seriously though, test percy with and w/out therapy. Therapy is a good card. Situational, but still good. We just run better stuff.
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
as for me not running 4 hymns, well i played a lot last uear with aun full set and i always hated to draw one of those when i have wrecked my opponnents hand so i did some maths and i came woth that distribution, things have changed nowadays and i probablu need to re think about running thoughtseizes instead of iok but since where i live now there are nl legacy tourneys i dont play this fpomat that often...
oh and please please play and test this deck before even considering to post your opinions because on paper it is really deceiving.
anyway keep the nightmare alive...
currently playing
Standard RUGRUG Ramp
Modern GRTurbo Moon,RRRSkred Red
Legacy BBBNightmare Effect,GUWEnchantress,UWBCephalid Breakfast
I´ve found the same problem, for me is 3x Ratchet Bomb somewere in the 75, some people have suggested Infest as well-
Bob really is all that and a bag of chips in this deck. As Pinguster likes to say "If you look carefully at Bob's text it actually reads "You win the game"." People obsess about getting rid of him any way possible as fast as they can.
He is definitely a must if you want to play the list competitively but Sign in Blood seems like a pretty decent replacement if you don't have them or want to pony up the $$$ for them. I haven't tried it personally but it looks better than what I tried. I must also agree that the Jitte's are worth picking up first if you don't have them already.
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QFT, minus 1 thing: Bob LOVES him some 'maw. For reals. The only time you should ever lose to anything with dudes, is when bob decides that you need some 'maw. Just warning you now. This will happen eventually.
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.