So... After a very long time of going back and forth with White based landstill... I've slowly realized that that deck just doesn't have what the current format needs.
A card that needs to be in landstill nowadays is definitely pernicious deed... With all the vials, counterbalances, low cc creatures, and the occasional challice, chrome mox, jitte, and manlands... Something needs to be able to give landstill an edge.
Deed is good, but I would hardly say white builds can't do the same.
I honestly have always hated planeswalkers... Doesn't anyone see them for what they really are?
I'll say it... They are win-more. They cannot change a losing board position (elspeth cannot deal with multiple creatures, and neither can jace)... They are strictly win-conditions that also happen to give additional board advantage once you've already taken control of the board (i.e. win more).
This is a very harsh critique because I understand where you're coming from but also have to argue some points about PW's.
First and foremost, they are ALWAYS another option in your arsenal. I am still warming up to them (been playing for years and the concept of them is soooo pokemon) but at the end of the day, they are a versatile option for any player to run. I agree, a PW cannot defeat a horde or save your arse from "omg I'm about to lose" situation; BUT they definitely break open games. To you, this is win-more, to me and others, they are momentum changing plays.
In 4 color, it's probably hard to squeeze in something like Elspeth, but if you use her (or any PW) to compliment your strategy, they are incredibly valuable. Nevertheless, everyone has their own opinions...I don't know what you expect from a lone card, and especially with the situation described, I doubt any 1 card could help you from a losing fight. PW's do a damn good job bailing you out -- all I'm gonna say.
...I cannot show my list right now (preparing for a large tourney, and don't want secret tech to get out)... But, there are several things people need to know about BHWC.
Fair enough, but do post your list afterwards. If I went 4 color ($$$ plus I find it not in my best interest to pilot the deck since it plays different from 2 and 3 color), I have tech up my sleeve as well.
Elspeth, humilty, and Wrath of god: You already have access to the best mass board control cards in the format (EE and Deed)... Why taint the deck with weaker card choices?
Again, I'd reconsider the harsh judgement on lady Elspeth. 2x in a deck isn't going to break your list (maybe it does, who knows). I can agree in principle on Wrath and Humility being jank in 4c.
Other cards like wasteland and stifle are things of the past... It used to be that the format was slow enough that we could have the luxury of time... These tempo cards COULD allow us to play an occasional mana-denial game in conjunction with crucible recursion tactics... But, with Cmcs in decks lowering and lowering, a 3 mana artifact is too slow to make it viable in a slower deck such as landstill.
I agree with wasteland not being efficient in 4c Landstill, but WHOA WHOA WHOA on what was said. wasteland, if any card, is more important because curves have gone down. Nearly every deck (light exceptions to goblins and merfolks) runs duals out the ying-yang....the ability to knock down a land *let's say tropical island* could win you the match right then and there.
Is it in your best interest to run Waste? Maybe. Will it color screw others? Yes. Will it hurt tempo like always? Yes. Will it hurt your own manabase....yes. I wouldn't proclaim Wasteland being dead --- it's one of the biggest cards in the format, even with power creep. Plus it's the achilles heel of this deck.
Stifle can work on its own, but wasteland is just not what this deck wants... It want to develop its own manabase and maintain control of the game state with other powerful spells and abilities.
WHY ON EARTH would you ever want this guy in landstill?...
MD he's goyf. SB he's goyf. 1G for what would commonly be a 4/5 or 5/6 isn't something to scoff at. He's 100% SB material at worst. Comes in against decks that can't handle goyf or is used normally as a staple kill condition. You also undervalue the effect of "I have a goyf in play" -- which goes very very far in gameplay. Sure, it can die to removal (your or theirs) and other critters, but in this sense, it's a removal spell + damage prevention. If you're lucky, he swings and you melt the table with deed rather than draw into redundant removal/counterspells. Goyf can block damage (which is important), kill attacking threats (removal), soak up opposing counterspells and removal (bait), and attack (additional win-con + your threat).
***
My tech in 4color would be extirpate MD. I would do whatever it takes to squeeze in 2-3x Exitrpate...seriously, it's broken with the amount of removal you can run. 4 deed, 3 EE, 3 Vind (i'd run vind), 2-3 Extirpate --- that's 12-13 cards that act as hyper efficient threat-removal.
I won't be going to tourneys until 2010, but I'm in the holiday spirit....enjoy my suggestion.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Deed is good, but I would hardly say white builds can't do the same.
I agree with this especially since Uwb landstill runs vindicate and engineered explosives. Although, I often like engineered explosives because it's a board sweeper that's colorless and therefore requires any color of mana, that's the beauty of sunburst.
rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
I have been messing around with this list as of late. I had a chance to test it for like a day and was impressed with the results it has put up against Merfolks, zoo, and countertop progenitus. Deed apparently seems to be pretty good especially with zendikar fetchlands to fetch out a basic manabase against opposing wastelands.
It isn't technically Ugbw landstill because of the lack of white for cards such as swords to plowshares and decree of justice. However, I suppose the deck is still similiar with pernicious deed, brainstorm, and manlands.
This is my current list, she did well in the GP, making the second day:
4 force of will
4 counterspell
3 cunning wish
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
3 pernicious deed
3 EE
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 life from the loam
1 humility
1 elspeth
2 decree of justice
1 Jace, the mind sculptor
4 flooded strand
2 Polluted delta
3 tundra
3 underground
3 tropical island
2 island
2 plains
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust bowl
1 Academy ruins
Side:
3 Canonist
1 hide / seek
1 pulse of the fields
1 krosan grip
1 blue elemental blast
1 zealous persecution
2 path to exile
2 relic of progenitus
2 extirpate
1 tutor
That's a nice deck, my list on the opening post of this thread(the last decklist) seems pretty similiar to yours minus the new jace. With that said, I definitely like the addition of the new Jace with pernicious deed in this deck.
IMO, I still think cunning wish puts Landstill over the top and wins you matches that you should not win otherwise.
Zealous Persecution seems pretty techy especially since you can grab it with cunning wish. I like it.
I am just curious though, what place did you end up getting overall and care to write a tournament report in thread?
The biggest difference between a decree and a manland is you can actually put early pressure underneath a standstill with a manland while you'll have to wait a few turns before decree becomes relevant. I have won countless games against opponents by just constantly attacking with factories and if my factories bites the dust then that's when decree will come in. With that said, your bombs doesn't necassary have to be your primary threats.
I'm not entirely sure if the wishboard is the way to go atm, but this variation seems to be winning more frequently. Either that or SICKSICKSICK is on one hell of a run with this deck.
I have also seen variations with Intuition, but they don't seem to be winning very much.
Thought Scour is terrible in BV. How many flashback spells are being run? Say roughly 15. This gives you a roughly 38% chance of milling one flashback spell. And even if you do, you paid one mana to cantrip and dump an overcosted spell. Alchemy, Geistflame, Devil's play, etc. all cost much more to flash back than your average card, so you're not getting full value out of it.
You'd much rather play Ponder. At least that generates a tangible advantage.
I couldn't understand what you were saying.
"You take the pair against ant lost."
".....and you put him Diabolic bench and some basic innocent and ready."
Thought Scour is terrible in BV. How many flashback spells are being run? Say roughly 15. This gives you a roughly 38% chance of milling one flashback spell. And even if you do, you paid one mana to cantrip and dump an overcosted spell. Alchemy, Geistflame, Devil's play, etc. all cost much more to flash back than your average card, so you're not getting full value out of it.
You'd much rather play Ponder. At least that generates a tangible advantage.
I'm not entirely sure if the wishboard is the way to go atm, but this variation seems to be winning more frequently. Either that or SICKSICKSICK is on one hell of a run with this deck.
I have also seen variations with Intuition, but they don't seem to be winning very much.
I think you should run more blue dual lands and more basics like a plains. Swords to plowshares seems too strong of card not to include a basic plains in the manabase.
Nature's Claim in the board seems icky to me, I think it should really be a Krosan grip, IMO.
Nature's Claim in the board seems icky to me, I think it should really be a Krosan grip, IMO.
I concur. I only ever use Nature's Claim over Grip in combo decks -- most notably Reanimator and Dredge -- because early grave hate can slow me down enough for them to get a leg up. In those decks I want something as fast as possible, and the versus :2mana::symg: is totally worth giving them four life. Where you don't need the speed, Krosan Grip is leaps and bounds better, and whatever people might say about Landstill, "fast" isn't usually one of the words they use.
I have beaten reanimator, merfolk, zoo, New Horizons, storm combo, and Countertop Progenitus a number of times with this list in testing. I have been loving the 2 mutavaults because it gives you the opportunity to play under standstill so you can take advantage of the enchantment more. Mutavault(Inspired by Rsaunder) also gives you an upperhand in the merfolk matchup as well. Jace the mindsculptor is probably the best card in the deck so it's a auto 4-of and it's one of the only reasons to play more then 1 island.
Sorry to double post, its 2 days later so im presuming its okay.
I dropped Cunning Wish/wishboard. I just didn't feel that it was effective enough and that replacing those spell snare because the 2 mana spells are what kill this deck.
Here is what I am wondering-
3 or 4 Jace's? I am using 4 right now and most times they are just force fodder.
Removal Package (4 Snuff Out and 2 Innocent Blood or 4 Innocent Blood and 2 Ghastly Demise) The reason why im thinking of snuff out is that you can set yourself up better for standstill/counter magic and allows for free removal, late game you can play it for 4 mana.
I haven't had any complaints about it so far. Although, I am thinking of doing -1 EE for another perish but I am not entirely sure on that change yet.
As for the mainboard, I have been trying out 1 loam and 1 crucible but will probably be going back to running 2 loams.
@bstars4ever: I'd rather run Fact or fiction over Jace Beleren if you want card draw in the mirror match but that's more so of a preference of mine. I mean, I always count on FoF to break stalemates in the mirror for me back when I used to play the mirror all the time. I remember when I used to run 4 fact or fictions and 4 standstills since brainstorm doesn't really do that much in the mirror while both FoF and/or standstills were able to keep me ahead on cards. Of course, I was running Uwr Landstill at the time and red blasts were so good in the mirror as well as solidarity.
I haven't had any complaints about it so far. Although, I am thinking of doing -1 EE for another perish but I am not entirely sure on that change yet.
As for the mainboard, I have been trying out 1 loam and 1 crucible but will probably be going back to running 2 loams.
@bstars4ever: I'd rather run Fact or fiction over Jace Beleren if you want card draw in the mirror match but that's more so of a preference of mine. I mean, I always count on FoF to break stalemates in the mirror for me back when I used to play the mirror all the time. I remember when I used to run 4 fact or fictions and 4 standstills since brainstorm doesn't really do that much in the mirror while both FoF and/or standstills were able to keep me ahead on cards. Of course, I was running Uwr Landstill at the time and red blasts were so good in the mirror as well as solidarity.
So have you tested Fact or Fiction yet in the sideboard?
By the way, I like the maelstrom pulse idea as it can kill multiples at once, kills Jace MTS, and counterbalance.
The singleton blue blasts looks good as you probably need only one to kill a grim lavamancer or a kird ape here and there.
Overall, your sideboard seems pretty good.
I didnt get around to playing this week. I played golf with some buddies I work with instead of playing magic.
In theory it seems it can be godly because of library manipulation.
The other option is Garruk Wildspeaker with untapping the mishra's factories/leaving mana open for counter magic. Im just trying to think a card that is hard to deal with and means "I win"
I really like pulse, it was krosan grip before but then counterbalance fell out of my meta so i pulled them out for pulses.
I think the most attractive role of maelstrom pulse is that it can hit plainswalkers which is huge. In fact, I played the Ugb Landstill mirror about 2 days ago on mws and I won pretty handily in the second game since I was able to pulse their Jace, the mindsculptor and then extirpate it. Still, the mirror takes alot of skill to play correctly but it's good practice nonetheless. So, kudos on the pulses in the sideboard.
As for fact or fiction, it's amazing even without library manipulation since drawing cards helps you win attrition wars and the mirror is full of attrition.
Although, Jace the mindsculptor is still the best card in the deck against the mirror and against the whole format.
I think the most attractive role of maelstrom pulse is that it can hit plainswalkers which is huge. In fact, I played the Ugb Landstill mirror about 2 days ago on mws and I won pretty handily in the second game since I was able to pulse their Jace, the mindsculptor and then extirpate it. Still, the mirror takes alot of skill to play correctly but it's good practice nonetheless. So, kudos on the pulses in the sideboard.
As for fact or fiction, it's amazing even without library manipulation since drawing cards helps you win attrition wars and the mirror is full of attrition.
Although, Jace the mindsculptor is still the best card in the deck against the mirror and against the whole format.
So, just took Jason Ford's BUG Landstill list from the GP to a Legacy tournament in Studio City, CA yesterday. I changed the 3 Cunning Wish main to Spell Snares after repeated issues against aggro. For reference, my board was:
3 Pithing Needle (mostly for Vial, but good for other things as well)
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Perish
2 Nature's Ruin
3 Krosan Grip
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Maelstrom Pulse
I ended 3-2-1.
Round 1 vs Aluren 2-1
Round 2 vs Eva Green 1-2 (directly due to colored mana issues games 2 & 3)
Round 3 vs Natural Order Elves 2-0
Round 4 vs Cephalid Breakfast w/ Skill Borrower 2-0
Round 5 vs Merfolk draw (issues with colored mana, but also unfamiliarity with this format and not playing more conservatively)
Round 6 vs Merfolk 1-2 (issues with colored mana, again)
There were several times during the tournament that I outright lost games due to color inconsistencies, like drawing 2 Factories and a Waste, then mulling to 6 only to find a Factory and Waste again. I'd say there were at least 4 games where this happened. Unfortunately, 2 of those directly resulted in the match loss for those rounds. While it's a little encouraging that the deck is resilient enough that it can still win matches where an entire game is thrown away to color screw, it's troublesome nonetheless.
In testing before the tournament, I lost handily to Merfolk as well as Zoo. I always felt just far enough behind vs Zoo that I wasn't able to push a game through, even though they were all very close. Merfolk, however, felt nigh unwinnable (I was only able to get so close to winning round 5 due to my opponent making several misplays).
I feel my aggro matchup is sorely lacking, though I feel quite comfortable vs control or combo. In reading these forums and doing some other poking around online, I'm convinced that white should be in the deck. However, I'm not exactly comfortable to give up Deed or Life from the Loam.
The list quoted at the top of page 5 by Cibergrun looks nearly identical to what I'd been sketching out in my head. Who here has tested such a version, and what have been their findings? I was forced to go 1 for 1 vs all the very relevant threats Zoo dealt out to me, and I think Academy Ruins could solve that problem outright. I'm also interested in hearing how Crucible has been vs Life from the Loam, and how important people feel Pernicious Deed is (a card I have very mixed feelings about right now).
I just started playing this deck and never get mana screwed.
The best way to combat such a thing is to consistantly shuffle:
7+ riffles/side shufflse, 1-2 pile shuffles (7 piles each shuffle), followed by a final 7+ rifle/side shuffles.
Before each match and between each game.
The only time I get mana screwed is when I don't shuffle enough, and the lands stack in a pattern because of how I arrange my lands during a game ( I arrange them by type).
I also consistantly win against Merfolk, unless they use an alt version which utilizies that 1 (U/G)(U/G) merfolk w/islandwalk that draws cards based on the amount of combat damage dealt to player. however, I have not tested against merfolk decks that utilize stifles yet...
Also, it helps to time Life of the Loam's dredge ability correctly w/Brainstorm and/or Jace the Mindsculptor in order to ramp and thin out your deck more. It may be a little presumptuous to ask if you are doing this or not, but I feel like it may help your "mana screw" too.
In theory, it seems really good against the mirror but extirpate can still be a problem and I still rather have card draw. But it's probably more so of a preference then anything else so if you want to play raven's crime you can. I think it can be good since it forces your opponent to find specific answers for it. Adding raven's crime just means you have more angles you can use in the mirror which can give you the upperhand. However, the substantial draw backs to raven's crime is I don't really see it being that useful in other matchups and you can't really C. wish for it. Also, I forgot to mention that C. wish is also one of the best cards in the mirror as well. C. wish for extripate has largely won me the mirror. Well, back when I would play uwb cunning Landstill anyway.
@mutedequilibrium: Well, the matchup for ugb landstill can still be pretty good for merfolk just because of how broken Aether Vial and wasteland is against us. I think if you really have color issues, I'd recommend playing with a couple of engineered explosives alongside of deed. Engineered explosives is pretty good against wastes since it's colorless so it has less discrepancies as far as casting it.
Although, sorry to see you do not so well though but there is always next time right? Goodluck in your future events with Landstill.
@abraxas
You're thinking of Cold-Eyed Selkie (which I fortunately haven't played against, yet). And I think that shuffle method might be a good and thorough way to go about things from now on. I'll give it a shot.
@bstars4evr
What would you define as playing Deed 'right,' then? Also, Plague seems pretty bad against Merfolk considering it only kills Cursecatcher and Silvergill Adept. And, well, the whole 12-16 possible lords thing.
@Cecilia
I was thinking EE would be a pretty solid complement to Deed, so I'll be testing that along with more basics, and a more thorough shuffle method. You're right about Vial being really rough for us, and EE should be able to make that first turn play significantly less frightening.
What's your experience been with Academy Ruins? Is it a mainstay of the deck, or only certain colored builds? Life from the Loam vs Crucible? While I love the 'uncounterability' of LFTL, the 'hands-free' aspect of Crucible is very appealing as it allows me to leave my mana up for other things.
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Deed is good, but I would hardly say white builds can't do the same.
This is a very harsh critique because I understand where you're coming from but also have to argue some points about PW's.
First and foremost, they are ALWAYS another option in your arsenal. I am still warming up to them (been playing for years and the concept of them is soooo pokemon) but at the end of the day, they are a versatile option for any player to run. I agree, a PW cannot defeat a horde or save your arse from "omg I'm about to lose" situation; BUT they definitely break open games. To you, this is win-more, to me and others, they are momentum changing plays.
In 4 color, it's probably hard to squeeze in something like Elspeth, but if you use her (or any PW) to compliment your strategy, they are incredibly valuable. Nevertheless, everyone has their own opinions...I don't know what you expect from a lone card, and especially with the situation described, I doubt any 1 card could help you from a losing fight. PW's do a damn good job bailing you out -- all I'm gonna say.
Fair enough, but do post your list afterwards. If I went 4 color ($$$ plus I find it not in my best interest to pilot the deck since it plays different from 2 and 3 color), I have tech up my sleeve as well.
Again, I'd reconsider the harsh judgement on lady Elspeth. 2x in a deck isn't going to break your list (maybe it does, who knows). I can agree in principle on Wrath and Humility being jank in 4c.
I agree with wasteland not being efficient in 4c Landstill, but WHOA WHOA WHOA on what was said. wasteland, if any card, is more important because curves have gone down. Nearly every deck (light exceptions to goblins and merfolks) runs duals out the ying-yang....the ability to knock down a land *let's say tropical island* could win you the match right then and there.
Is it in your best interest to run Waste? Maybe. Will it color screw others? Yes. Will it hurt tempo like always? Yes. Will it hurt your own manabase....yes. I wouldn't proclaim Wasteland being dead --- it's one of the biggest cards in the format, even with power creep. Plus it's the achilles heel of this deck.
Crucible of Worlds? Forget Loam, have a CoW!
MD he's goyf. SB he's goyf. 1G for what would commonly be a 4/5 or 5/6 isn't something to scoff at. He's 100% SB material at worst. Comes in against decks that can't handle goyf or is used normally as a staple kill condition. You also undervalue the effect of "I have a goyf in play" -- which goes very very far in gameplay. Sure, it can die to removal (your or theirs) and other critters, but in this sense, it's a removal spell + damage prevention. If you're lucky, he swings and you melt the table with deed rather than draw into redundant removal/counterspells. Goyf can block damage (which is important), kill attacking threats (removal), soak up opposing counterspells and removal (bait), and attack (additional win-con + your threat).
***
My tech in 4color would be extirpate MD. I would do whatever it takes to squeeze in 2-3x Exitrpate...seriously, it's broken with the amount of removal you can run. 4 deed, 3 EE, 3 Vind (i'd run vind), 2-3 Extirpate --- that's 12-13 cards that act as hyper efficient threat-removal.
I won't be going to tourneys until 2010, but I'm in the holiday spirit....enjoy my suggestion.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I agree with this especially since Uwb landstill runs vindicate and engineered explosives. Although, I often like engineered explosives because it's a board sweeper that's colorless and therefore requires any color of mana, that's the beauty of sunburst.
Deed and 25 duals < 6 basic lands and ***.
IMO.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK Level 4 Bad Guy
It isn't technically Ugbw landstill because of the lack of white for cards such as swords to plowshares and decree of justice. However, I suppose the deck is still similiar with pernicious deed, brainstorm, and manlands.
Here is my build.
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Mutavault
3 Underground Sea
1 Forest
1 Swamp
Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Counterbalance
3 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt
That's a nice deck, my list on the opening post of this thread(the last decklist) seems pretty similiar to yours minus the new jace. With that said, I definitely like the addition of the new Jace with pernicious deed in this deck.
IMO, I still think cunning wish puts Landstill over the top and wins you matches that you should not win otherwise.
Zealous Persecution seems pretty techy especially since you can grab it with cunning wish. I like it.
I am just curious though, what place did you end up getting overall and care to write a tournament report in thread?
Here is the most recent list that 4-0'd
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Innocent Blood
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Standstill
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
36 other spells
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Extirpate
1 Hideous Laughter
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Nature's Claim
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Stifle
1 Tempest of Light
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Tsabo's Decree
I'm not entirely sure if the wishboard is the way to go atm, but this variation seems to be winning more frequently. Either that or SICKSICKSICK is on one hell of a run with this deck.
I have also seen variations with Intuition, but they don't seem to be winning very much.
"You take the pair against ant lost."
".....and you put him Diabolic bench and some basic innocent and ready."
Can you rephrase those?
I think you should run more blue dual lands and more basics like a plains. Swords to plowshares seems too strong of card not to include a basic plains in the manabase.
Nature's Claim in the board seems icky to me, I think it should really be a Krosan grip, IMO.
I concur. I only ever use Nature's Claim over Grip in combo decks -- most notably Reanimator and Dredge -- because early grave hate can slow me down enough for them to get a leg up. In those decks I want something as fast as possible, and the versus :2mana::symg: is totally worth giving them four life. Where you don't need the speed, Krosan Grip is leaps and bounds better, and whatever people might say about Landstill, "fast" isn't usually one of the words they use.
3 Wasteland
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
Spells
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Innocent Blood
1 Life from the loam
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Plague
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
I have beaten reanimator, merfolk, zoo, New Horizons, storm combo, and Countertop Progenitus a number of times with this list in testing. I have been loving the 2 mutavaults because it gives you the opportunity to play under standstill so you can take advantage of the enchantment more. Mutavault(Inspired by Rsaunder) also gives you an upperhand in the merfolk matchup as well. Jace the mindsculptor is probably the best card in the deck so it's a auto 4-of and it's one of the only reasons to play more then 1 island.
current wishboard-
There is a 43 lands player that i am having problems with, i am thinking about splashing red and play price of progress in the sideboard.
--me on the sig--
-- Trade Thread -- Buy List --
I dropped Cunning Wish/wishboard. I just didn't feel that it was effective enough and that replacing those spell snare because the 2 mana spells are what kill this deck.
Here is what I am wondering-
3 or 4 Jace's? I am using 4 right now and most times they are just force fodder.
Removal Package (4 Snuff Out and 2 Innocent Blood or 4 Innocent Blood and 2 Ghastly Demise) The reason why im thinking of snuff out is that you can set yourself up better for standstill/counter magic and allows for free removal, late game you can play it for 4 mana.
Sideboard-
--me on the sig--
-- Trade Thread -- Buy List --
3 Hydroblast
3 Engineered Plague
1 Perish
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
2 Relic of progenitus
I haven't had any complaints about it so far. Although, I am thinking of doing -1 EE for another perish but I am not entirely sure on that change yet.
As for the mainboard, I have been trying out 1 loam and 1 crucible but will probably be going back to running 2 loams.
@bstars4ever: I'd rather run Fact or fiction over Jace Beleren if you want card draw in the mirror match but that's more so of a preference of mine. I mean, I always count on FoF to break stalemates in the mirror for me back when I used to play the mirror all the time. I remember when I used to run 4 fact or fictions and 4 standstills since brainstorm doesn't really do that much in the mirror while both FoF and/or standstills were able to keep me ahead on cards. Of course, I was running Uwr Landstill at the time and red blasts were so good in the mirror as well as solidarity.
Ill give it a shot, thanks for the suggestion
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So have you tested Fact or Fiction yet in the sideboard?
By the way, I like the maelstrom pulse idea as it can kill multiples at once, kills Jace MTS, and counterbalance.
The singleton blue blasts looks good as you probably need only one to kill a grim lavamancer or a kird ape here and there.
Overall, your sideboard seems pretty good.
I didnt get around to playing this week. I played golf with some buddies I work with instead of playing magic.
In theory it seems it can be godly because of library manipulation.
The other option is Garruk Wildspeaker with untapping the mishra's factories/leaving mana open for counter magic. Im just trying to think a card that is hard to deal with and means "I win"
I really like pulse, it was krosan grip before but then counterbalance fell out of my meta so i pulled them out for pulses.
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As for fact or fiction, it's amazing even without library manipulation since drawing cards helps you win attrition wars and the mirror is full of attrition.
Although, Jace the mindsculptor is still the best card in the deck against the mirror and against the whole format.
what about raven's crime? With life from the loam in play it seems like a win.
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3 Pithing Needle (mostly for Vial, but good for other things as well)
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Perish
2 Nature's Ruin
3 Krosan Grip
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Maelstrom Pulse
I ended 3-2-1.
Round 1 vs Aluren 2-1
Round 2 vs Eva Green 1-2 (directly due to colored mana issues games 2 & 3)
Round 3 vs Natural Order Elves 2-0
Round 4 vs Cephalid Breakfast w/ Skill Borrower 2-0
Round 5 vs Merfolk draw (issues with colored mana, but also unfamiliarity with this format and not playing more conservatively)
Round 6 vs Merfolk 1-2 (issues with colored mana, again)
There were several times during the tournament that I outright lost games due to color inconsistencies, like drawing 2 Factories and a Waste, then mulling to 6 only to find a Factory and Waste again. I'd say there were at least 4 games where this happened. Unfortunately, 2 of those directly resulted in the match loss for those rounds. While it's a little encouraging that the deck is resilient enough that it can still win matches where an entire game is thrown away to color screw, it's troublesome nonetheless.
In testing before the tournament, I lost handily to Merfolk as well as Zoo. I always felt just far enough behind vs Zoo that I wasn't able to push a game through, even though they were all very close. Merfolk, however, felt nigh unwinnable (I was only able to get so close to winning round 5 due to my opponent making several misplays).
I feel my aggro matchup is sorely lacking, though I feel quite comfortable vs control or combo. In reading these forums and doing some other poking around online, I'm convinced that white should be in the deck. However, I'm not exactly comfortable to give up Deed or Life from the Loam.
The list quoted at the top of page 5 by Cibergrun looks nearly identical to what I'd been sketching out in my head. Who here has tested such a version, and what have been their findings? I was forced to go 1 for 1 vs all the very relevant threats Zoo dealt out to me, and I think Academy Ruins could solve that problem outright. I'm also interested in hearing how Crucible has been vs Life from the Loam, and how important people feel Pernicious Deed is (a card I have very mixed feelings about right now).
Any info would be much appreciated!
The best way to combat such a thing is to consistantly shuffle:
7+ riffles/side shufflse, 1-2 pile shuffles (7 piles each shuffle), followed by a final 7+ rifle/side shuffles.
Before each match and between each game.
The only time I get mana screwed is when I don't shuffle enough, and the lands stack in a pattern because of how I arrange my lands during a game ( I arrange them by type).
I also consistantly win against Merfolk, unless they use an alt version which utilizies that 1 (U/G)(U/G) merfolk w/islandwalk that draws cards based on the amount of combat damage dealt to player. however, I have not tested against merfolk decks that utilize stifles yet...
Also, it helps to time Life of the Loam's dredge ability correctly w/Brainstorm and/or Jace the Mindsculptor in order to ramp and thin out your deck more. It may be a little presumptuous to ask if you are doing this or not, but I feel like it may help your "mana screw" too.
Mana has never really been a problem except for the time i was port/wastelocked on one green source and needed to play life from the loam.
why no engineered plague? I heard that they are good vs merfolk. Especially in multiples.
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In theory, it seems really good against the mirror but extirpate can still be a problem and I still rather have card draw. But it's probably more so of a preference then anything else so if you want to play raven's crime you can. I think it can be good since it forces your opponent to find specific answers for it. Adding raven's crime just means you have more angles you can use in the mirror which can give you the upperhand. However, the substantial draw backs to raven's crime is I don't really see it being that useful in other matchups and you can't really C. wish for it. Also, I forgot to mention that C. wish is also one of the best cards in the mirror as well. C. wish for extripate has largely won me the mirror. Well, back when I would play uwb cunning Landstill anyway.
@mutedequilibrium: Well, the matchup for ugb landstill can still be pretty good for merfolk just because of how broken Aether Vial and wasteland is against us. I think if you really have color issues, I'd recommend playing with a couple of engineered explosives alongside of deed. Engineered explosives is pretty good against wastes since it's colorless so it has less discrepancies as far as casting it.
Although, sorry to see you do not so well though but there is always next time right? Goodluck in your future events with Landstill.
You're thinking of Cold-Eyed Selkie (which I fortunately haven't played against, yet). And I think that shuffle method might be a good and thorough way to go about things from now on. I'll give it a shot.
@bstars4evr
What would you define as playing Deed 'right,' then? Also, Plague seems pretty bad against Merfolk considering it only kills Cursecatcher and Silvergill Adept. And, well, the whole 12-16 possible lords thing.
@Cecilia
I was thinking EE would be a pretty solid complement to Deed, so I'll be testing that along with more basics, and a more thorough shuffle method. You're right about Vial being really rough for us, and EE should be able to make that first turn play significantly less frightening.
What's your experience been with Academy Ruins? Is it a mainstay of the deck, or only certain colored builds? Life from the Loam vs Crucible? While I love the 'uncounterability' of LFTL, the 'hands-free' aspect of Crucible is very appealing as it allows me to leave my mana up for other things.