This is for, as the title suggests, serious metagame discussion in preparation for Grand Prix Columbus. I will be watching this thread heavily for signs of spam, useless posts, and the like. If I find myself to be guilty of this, I will give MYSELF an infraction...because I'm no better than the rest of you.
Which is better? Aggro? Control? Combo? A mixture? Something completely new? Bring your thoughts here, but please try to keep decklists to their respective threads. Individual card discussion is encouraged, and so is disagreement, providing it doesn't degenerate into flaming.
Can any of you create a deck that beats Goblins, Threshold, AND storm combo decks? If you can, give me the list first (j/k)
Discuss, MTGS Legacy community.
Some helpful links will be added soon; here is one.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
The deck I got 12th place at the Legacy Championships with what 80/20 vs goblins and threshold. In one round, I swept solidarity (game one my tech came at a lucky time...top does that). I only lost 4 games in all 8 rounds. I lost game 1, round one to landstill and time ran out b/c we didn't know when to start and thus did so late. in round 4, i mull'd to 4 and conceded in response to his 1st turn duress. in round 8, against roland chang, i won game 2...he got the other two. if he hadn't had such bad tie-breakers, we both would have id'd in the top 8. he mentions me here: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/12638.html
I've been thinking about writing an article about my deck, but I'm not sure I want to print the deck list anywhere or spend the time to write about it. You def have to beat goblins (which I swept in round 2 and 3). then threshold. the recent side event at PT kobe may change things a little with that 1st place deck, but I haven't had time to test against it yet. I'll try and find the metagame breakdown I typed up before the legacy champs event. I think my deck, roman candle, is an awesome deck, but it doesn't want to face a few things. rifter b/c it takes too long and game 1 i probably won't win. landstill is a problem, but sudden shock and krosan grip might help that (stupid disk). sudden shock might help against madness a lot, not that we were seeing it a lot, but we might now. I spent like 3 months preparing for this format and got very good at it. Thanks WOTC for giving us another GP!
I would a mix between aggo-control/Control-Combo. Control is to important in a meta deck not to be involded.
THis is my thoughts on meta decks, any two color combo in magic can be made into a meta deck. Between two colors lays all or most of the answers to ones problems. Thuse, I would say we would have to start with a mana base(Duals/Fetchs) before anything else can be done.
It will need 4 duals for aggro-control and 3 to 4 for control-combo. I would aim more to aggro-control to tell the truth, its stronger. just look at B/W and threshold. Fetchs is key as well, 6 to 8. Will we need wasteland, YES. Port, Maybe. basics yes. Manlands Only if control-combo for pit or ring.
I would think creauters like Jotun grunt, Silver Knight, Spectral Lynx(im thinking white for some reason) are great creatures verse many of the top deck... WOW I'm one eyen it right now. I will finish my rant in the morning.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
I doubt there will be much that changes in the format until then, and as such, you'll probably find me as the only Stax player there, unless I drag some teammates.
Mr. Nightmare, I have been considering caving in recently. Goblins is becoming increasingly difficult for Dirt with all the hate I am encountering in Alabama. how is the Goblin matchup for you, and do you play Worship?
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I don't hate working out. I hate working. I'm actually fine with the out.
The meta was extremely diverse at the legacy championships. It was quoted to have over 30 different archetypes there.
In that light, I highly expect goblins, thresh, b/w and b/r sui variants, combo, loam control, and landstill to show up in numbers. To a lesser extent, I would expect some red aggro strategies other than goblins to be prevalent as well.
B/W is getting a huge boost in popularity since the printing of flagstones and smallpox. Loam control is also jumping in popularity as well. I expect loam control will become a tier 1 deck due to its ability to crush aggro. This means that combo will get a lot better. Threshold will not die out, per se, but it will lose popularity as loam control and b/w decks get better. I don't expect faerie and angel stompy to be huge players, but angel stompy has been successful at beating goblins (something I consider the viability exam for legacy). Allow me to reiterate: IF YOUR DECK CANNOT BEAT GOBLINS CONSISTENTLY, DON'T PLAY IT!
Now that that is out of the way, I do expect a new combo deck to popup. This is due to the fact that a new one or two has popped up for every major legacy event that has happened the past 2-3 years. (2 land belcher, salvagers, solidarity, iggy-pop, bomberman, etc...) The key to winning in legacy right now is to not devote your entire strategy to 1 card (belcher - iggy pop), and to be able to control red / green creatures.
In the end, my advice is to be innovative in your decks, but be even more thorough in your testing and you will do well.
Mr. Nightmare, I have been considering caving in recently. Goblins is becoming increasingly difficult for Dirt with all the hate I am encountering in Alabama. how is the Goblin matchup for you, and do you play Worship?
Goblins is pretty much an even match up. i do not run Worship currently, although the option is there for the GP. Honestly, I don't play the matchup very often, since the deck is kind of dead in my Meta.
If I were to go, I'd probably run either rifter or deadguy. Rifter is just so disgusting right now and no one notices it. If played well, it can wreck goblins, threshold, and just have a field day with loam control (yeah, cycle 3 lands a turn!). My sideboard would be 15 straight combo hate slots from glowrider and true believer to rule of law orim's chant and abbeyance.
IF YOUR DECK CANNOT BEAT GOBLINS CONSISTANTLY, DON'T PLAY IT.
Tru dat. If you can consistantly beat goblins and threshold, my money is on you to win the whole thing.
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Quote from "Warden" »
rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
If you can consistantly beat goblins and threshold, my money is on you to win the whole thing.
But my deck does! Heh, like I said...had only lost 2 games going into 8th round of legacy champs (and those weren't even in the same match...but one of them came with time running out...my only match loss at that point). I would have Top 8'd but Roland couldn't ID with me b/c of bad tie-breakers. I lost game 1 and 3 to a random deck with a good player. it happens.
What about one that makes Thresh cry (usually) and sometimes beats Goblins..unless I don't draw lands. And kill spells. Or if they don't draw three Piledrivers.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
Goblins is pretty much an even match up. i do not run Worship currently, although the option is there for the GP. Honestly, I don't play the matchup very often, since the deck is kind of dead in my Meta.
An even match sadly isn't good enough unless you get lucky. I played Goblins 8 times at Gencon to a 4-4 record. Unfortunately, two of those losses came during Worlds, knocking me out of contention.
emidln, I was looking at your sig and an idea came to me: how good is Uba Mask against storm combo decks? I would assume pretty fair, but I could be wrong. I've never tested with it, so maybe someone with experience could give me some insight?
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
Not that I will be going to GP columbus, but I have an U/W angel stompy legacy deck that has worked well so far. The main deck is much more anti-combo than most AS decks. It runs 4 glowrider main, and 2 true believers, although that could go up to 4 as well. meddling mages also help make the combo matchup a bit harder, since they can't bounce everything they need to before going off. Needless to say, the sideboard is very anti-goblin, making it essentially a transformational list. It seems to meet the criteria of beating combo and goblins, but would have a rough time against threshold, although i haven't played that matchup much.
emidln, I was looking at your sig and an idea came to me: how good is Uba Mask against storm combo decks? I would assume pretty fair, but I could be wrong. I've never tested with it, so maybe someone with experience could give me some insight?
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
Eventually, it does. At first, it says Hand Size -2 and RFG 3 cards. For a deck like Iggy Pop that only needs to see a Sorcery and 2 permanents, this can actually be a help. For decks like Veggie Tendrils or Solidarity, it's a nightmare because they want to optimize their hand before they go off. Additionally, it must be bounced for Brain Freeze decks to win.
I've found Uba Mask to be really busted as a 2-3 of in Legacy. It shuts off Aether Vial, serves as a lockpiece in Stax, is disruption to Aluren and Solidarity, and serves as a recurring ancestral recall or better with Sylvan Library. Plus, out of the board in UbaStax, I've Uba-locked my share of unsuspecting random decks with Welders.
I had a R/G/B Control deck abusing Sylvan Library, Goblin Welder, Ensnaring Bridge, LED, Infernal Tutor, Uba Mask and some other random cards. I haven't worked on it in awhile, but it's an interesting concept. I'll have to find my last list and post it.
How much do you expect to see the SmallPox/Loam Control start to show up. Since I haven't tested Legacy since August, I don't know it much. I'm afraid of it with the deck I was playing b/c if I don't duress all of their dev. dreams, I lose... Hardcore LD destroys my deck. Sacred ground won't do anything since it can be blown up easily, and dreams doesn't target, so I could gilded light or anything. Blue is the only color I don't run, so I can't mage it. I could cranial it, but that'd feel dumb. Soon I hope to have time to post some old metagame notes....if I still have them.
Can any of you create a deck that beats Goblins, Threshold, AND storm combo decks? If you can, give me the list first (j/k)
AoK, POX is the way. it can beat all of those three decks that you mentioned with ease. please test it out. you will see. we have been testing quite a bit with it and it is definitely a dirty man's deck.
you feel so bad playing it because your opponent always feels so screwed.
I know of a deck that beats Goblins and Threshold and is even against storm combo. I know of a deck that beats Threshold, Storm combo and random jank and is even against Goblins. I don't know of a deck that is better than even with all of them. I, too, would like to see such a deck.
LandDestroyer's Control deck and my R/G UbaStax deck, respectively. I don't know if his list is published, but various incarnations of my UbaStax deck are floating around. It doesn't really lose to a whole lot, except Goblins.
Interestingly enough, we're both running Control decks with Ensnaring Bridge and the color red. Maybe that is something to think about. Also, we both missed out on top8 at Gencon holding down the 9-16 spots.
yeah, my deck is 80% win against goblins (though swept both times i played it at legacy championship),
i swept solidarity at gencon, i figure i'm maybe a little under 50% game 1, 90% game 2, 80% game 3.
i'm 80% against threshold.
i can beat iggy pop if they don't kill me on turn one...but it's not a great match up.
salvagers might eat me alive. rifter takes too long to beat.
i can win, but don't want to sea rec-sur or landstill.
My deck was one of the best at gencon (should have been, i spent 3 months on it). I am currently testing a new version that will probably be a little weaker against threshold, but I think stronger overall.
Oh, and against pikula, i had no worse game than any other deck. That's what my roommate played. Strong, but not consistent enough for my taste.
Edit: I've been wanting to write an aritcle about my deck for soooo long, but haven't had time. Maybe in December I'll have a chance. It'll be worth reading, I promise.
yeah, my deck is 80% win against goblins (though swept both times i played it at legacy championship),
i swept solidarity at gencon, i figure i'm maybe a little under 50% game 1, 90% game 2, 80% game 3.
i'm 80% against threshold.
I have a really, really large issue with you making these claims. Especially since we have no idea what you're playing, since you didn't actually top 8 at Gencon, despite having "the best deck there." All I see is another random person talking about how they broke the format, with no results to back it up. Remember when emidln said he did? I made the same comment then, and I'm still waiting for Contract Tendrils to make even a small blip on the radar.
80% means you cannot lose, barring their nut hand, or your own deck crapping the bed.
90% means you absolutely cannot lose unless you draw and keep a 7 land hand, and then you win sometimes anyway.
I do not believe for a second that your deck has that kind of matchup percentage against the three best decks in the format.
Which is better? Aggro? Control? Combo? A mixture? Something completely new? Bring your thoughts here, but please try to keep decklists to their respective threads. Individual card discussion is encouraged, and so is disagreement, providing it doesn't degenerate into flaming.
Can any of you create a deck that beats Goblins, Threshold, AND storm combo decks? If you can, give me the list first (j/k)
Discuss, MTGS Legacy community.
Some helpful links will be added soon; here is one.
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13200.html (Thanks Finn and SCG for helping out!)
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
I've been thinking about writing an article about my deck, but I'm not sure I want to print the deck list anywhere or spend the time to write about it. You def have to beat goblins (which I swept in round 2 and 3). then threshold. the recent side event at PT kobe may change things a little with that 1st place deck, but I haven't had time to test against it yet. I'll try and find the metagame breakdown I typed up before the legacy champs event. I think my deck, roman candle, is an awesome deck, but it doesn't want to face a few things. rifter b/c it takes too long and game 1 i probably won't win. landstill is a problem, but sudden shock and krosan grip might help that (stupid disk). sudden shock might help against madness a lot, not that we were seeing it a lot, but we might now. I spent like 3 months preparing for this format and got very good at it. Thanks WOTC for giving us another GP!
THis is my thoughts on meta decks, any two color combo in magic can be made into a meta deck. Between two colors lays all or most of the answers to ones problems. Thuse, I would say we would have to start with a mana base(Duals/Fetchs) before anything else can be done.
It will need 4 duals for aggro-control and 3 to 4 for control-combo. I would aim more to aggro-control to tell the truth, its stronger. just look at B/W and threshold. Fetchs is key as well, 6 to 8. Will we need wasteland, YES. Port, Maybe. basics yes. Manlands Only if control-combo for pit or ring.
I would think creauters like Jotun grunt, Silver Knight, Spectral Lynx(im thinking white for some reason) are great creatures verse many of the top deck... WOW I'm one eyen it right now. I will finish my rant in the morning.
I agree with Spectral Lynx being quite good in today's meta, seeing as it's pro-Threshold guys and regenerates. Seems fair to me.
However, I won't be using white mana, myself.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
The meta was extremely diverse at the legacy championships. It was quoted to have over 30 different archetypes there.
In that light, I highly expect goblins, thresh, b/w and b/r sui variants, combo, loam control, and landstill to show up in numbers. To a lesser extent, I would expect some red aggro strategies other than goblins to be prevalent as well.
B/W is getting a huge boost in popularity since the printing of flagstones and smallpox. Loam control is also jumping in popularity as well. I expect loam control will become a tier 1 deck due to its ability to crush aggro. This means that combo will get a lot better. Threshold will not die out, per se, but it will lose popularity as loam control and b/w decks get better. I don't expect faerie and angel stompy to be huge players, but angel stompy has been successful at beating goblins (something I consider the viability exam for legacy). Allow me to reiterate: IF YOUR DECK CANNOT BEAT GOBLINS CONSISTENTLY, DON'T PLAY IT!
Now that that is out of the way, I do expect a new combo deck to popup. This is due to the fact that a new one or two has popped up for every major legacy event that has happened the past 2-3 years. (2 land belcher, salvagers, solidarity, iggy-pop, bomberman, etc...) The key to winning in legacy right now is to not devote your entire strategy to 1 card (belcher - iggy pop), and to be able to control red / green creatures.
In the end, my advice is to be innovative in your decks, but be even more thorough in your testing and you will do well.
Goblins is pretty much an even match up. i do not run Worship currently, although the option is there for the GP. Honestly, I don't play the matchup very often, since the deck is kind of dead in my Meta.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK Level 4 Bad Guy
But my deck does! Heh, like I said...had only lost 2 games going into 8th round of legacy champs (and those weren't even in the same match...but one of them came with time running out...my only match loss at that point). I would have Top 8'd but Roland couldn't ID with me b/c of bad tie-breakers. I lost game 1 and 3 to a random deck with a good player. it happens.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
An even match sadly isn't good enough unless you get lucky. I played Goblins 8 times at Gencon to a 4-4 record. Unfortunately, two of those losses came during Worlds, knocking me out of contention.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
Eventually, it does. At first, it says Hand Size -2 and RFG 3 cards. For a deck like Iggy Pop that only needs to see a Sorcery and 2 permanents, this can actually be a help. For decks like Veggie Tendrils or Solidarity, it's a nightmare because they want to optimize their hand before they go off. Additionally, it must be bounced for Brain Freeze decks to win.
I've found Uba Mask to be really busted as a 2-3 of in Legacy. It shuts off Aether Vial, serves as a lockpiece in Stax, is disruption to Aluren and Solidarity, and serves as a recurring ancestral recall or better with Sylvan Library. Plus, out of the board in UbaStax, I've Uba-locked my share of unsuspecting random decks with Welders.
I had a R/G/B Control deck abusing Sylvan Library, Goblin Welder, Ensnaring Bridge, LED, Infernal Tutor, Uba Mask and some other random cards. I haven't worked on it in awhile, but it's an interesting concept. I'll have to find my last list and post it.
AoK, POX is the way. it can beat all of those three decks that you mentioned with ease. please test it out. you will see. we have been testing quite a bit with it and it is definitely a dirty man's deck.
you feel so bad playing it because your opponent always feels so screwed.
Interestingly enough, we're both running Control decks with Ensnaring Bridge and the color red. Maybe that is something to think about. Also, we both missed out on top8 at Gencon holding down the 9-16 spots.
i swept solidarity at gencon, i figure i'm maybe a little under 50% game 1, 90% game 2, 80% game 3.
i'm 80% against threshold.
i can beat iggy pop if they don't kill me on turn one...but it's not a great match up.
salvagers might eat me alive. rifter takes too long to beat.
i can win, but don't want to sea rec-sur or landstill.
My deck was one of the best at gencon (should have been, i spent 3 months on it). I am currently testing a new version that will probably be a little weaker against threshold, but I think stronger overall.
Oh, and against pikula, i had no worse game than any other deck. That's what my roommate played. Strong, but not consistent enough for my taste.
Edit: I've been wanting to write an aritcle about my deck for soooo long, but haven't had time. Maybe in December I'll have a chance. It'll be worth reading, I promise.
80% means you cannot lose, barring their nut hand, or your own deck crapping the bed.
90% means you absolutely cannot lose unless you draw and keep a 7 land hand, and then you win sometimes anyway.
I do not believe for a second that your deck has that kind of matchup percentage against the three best decks in the format.