ok so this was the deck I've been building as a starting point. Almost all my cards have arrived in the mail, just waiting on my 3 tropical island, 2 natural order. However, upon further inspection, I don't have any enchantment or artifact removal. Qasali Pridemage, Trygon Predator, or Krosan Grip should be on here obviously, I'm guessing the creatures would be a better choice. But what do I remove? I know this deck is really based on simply countering everything, but there's bound to be something that gets past my hand and CounterTop. It's always good to have a solution in the deck somewhere. So any who's played this build have any suggestions? I thought maybe drop the 2 war monks for 2 pridemages, but I don't know. Almost seems like spells should go considering that the pridemages are not going to stay on the battlefield long and therefore I should view them as a spell slot. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
Alright! I've got almost everything coming! A week of hardcore and persistent trading has paid off! All I need is Flooded Strand. But I feel like I can build something for now until I obtain those. So how does something like this look?
I'm gonna have to start doing some testing to see what really works, but I just wanted to have a starting point. KotR seems so good with fetchlands and wastelands. Any suggestions? Also, I pretty much have a playset of every card used to build the Control version of this deck. I just don't know what's optimal.
ok so this was the deck I've been building as a starting point. Almost all my cards have arrived in the mail, just waiting on my 3 tropical island, 2 natural order. However, upon further inspection, I don't have any enchantment or artifact removal. Qasali Pridemage, Trygon Predator, or Krosan Grip should be on here obviously, I'm guessing the creatures would be a better choice. But what do I remove? I know this deck is really based on simply countering everything, but there's bound to be something that gets past my hand and CounterTop. It's always good to have a solution in the deck somewhere. So any who's played this build have any suggestions? I thought maybe drop the 2 war monks for 2 pridemages, but I don't know. Almost seems like spells should go considering that the pridemages are not going to stay on the battlefield long and therefore I should view them as a spell slot. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
I'd rather cut the wastelands and run more fetchlands that can fetch for green sources. Considering, one of your strongest agendas is to resolve a natural order.
I'd do something like -4 Wastelands, +2 Flooded Strand, +2 Misty Rainforest.
Also, I would make this change. -4 Spell Snare, +2 Qasali Pridemage, +1 Ponder, +1 Daze.
Ok so it seems like everyone has a lot of opinions about what should be in and what shouldn't. Like I said, I'm just trying to have a solid deck to start with, and then do testing of my own. I hope I'm not coming across as "Build my deck for me." I definitely do appreciate all the input.
Everyone seems to think that Spell Snare should be the first contender to go. That does make sense. Provided I have CounterTop out, Daze, Goyf, and Counterbalance are 2 drops that do the same job. So that's 7 to have come up in my top 3 cards. I guess Spell Snare is better to run in Aggro or Excalibur.
Wasteland just seems like a great way to really screw your opponents tempo. Does my mana base look that bad where I would not even want to try running maybe 2? I will try my starting deck without them.
I will start with replacing them with 2 Misty Rainforest, 1 Forest, and 1 more Island. I will be getting some Flooded Strand in the next 2 weeks. But until then I have to work without them. I'll drop the 4 Spell Snare, add 2 Qasali Pridemage, 1 Ponder, and 1 Daze. The Daze I'm on the fence about only because what Aaron said before is that they're only good early game, and then they become FoW fodder. Maybe a 4th Counterbalance would be better.
I'm really hoping I can get a chance to play with this on Thursday. The new LGS I go to has a bunch of Legacy players, but they haven't been there the past few weeks due to the holiday. I'd like to show up with a cool deck to play them. So I guess I will try this out for now. Thanks again for everyone's input. I'm hoping soon enough to be able to contribute to this thread.
The reason for playing the 4th daze is because it seems necessary to resolve a counterbalance and/or natural order in the mirror(I could see a resurgence of countertop decks with the post banning of survival). The importance of having daze becomes even more apparent when you tap out to play either card.
Sure, it's a sound idea to listen to pretty good legacy players like Aaron but I think it's very important to find what cards work the best for you instead of just relying on other people to tell you if the card is good or not. I mean, I have my own reasons on why I would play the 4th daze or not and so does Aaron. So I suggest you do the same.
You should have the best of both worlds not just one.
As for adding a 4th counterbalance, it seems like it's good if you want to draw counterbalance every game. However, that can dictate on what your matchups are since boarding out counterbalance against any deck with Aether Vial seems logical to me. Both merfolks and goblins comes to mind in this case.
Thanks for the input, Kevin. I agree 100% about making my deck to fit my play style. Like I said before I just wanted advice from you fellow Bant players to find a nice starting core for my deck. I am a long time casual player and just never had a chance to play competitive or even with a top tier deck until now. I plan on trying out and testing every card under the sun that could possibly go into my deck to see what really suits me. I hope I have not come across as a lazy person requesting everyone to build my deck. I simply don't know the opposing top tier decks and what's best for what.
The reason for playing the 4th daze is because it seems necessary to resolve a counterbalance and/or natural order in the mirror(I could see a resurgence of countertop decks with the post banning of survival). The importance of having daze becomes even more apparent when you tap out to play either card.
Sure, it's a sound idea to listen to pretty good legacy players like Aaron but I think it's very important to find what cards work the best for you instead of just relying on other people to tell you if the card is good or not. I mean, I have my own reasons on why I would play the 4th daze or not and so does Aaron. So I suggest you do the same.
You should have the best of both worlds not just one.
As for adding a 4th counterbalance, it seems like it's good if you want to draw counterbalance every game. However, that can dictate on what your matchups are since boarding out counterbalance against any deck with Aether Vial seems logical to me. Both merfolks and goblins comes to mind in this case.
Thanks for the input, Kevin. I agree 100% about making my deck to fit my play style. Like I said before I just wanted advice from you fellow Bant players to find a nice starting core for my deck. I am a long time casual player and just never had a chance to play competitive or even with a top tier deck until now. I plan on trying out and testing every card under the sun that could possibly go into my deck to see what really suits me. I hope I have not come across as a lazy person requesting everyone to build my deck. I simply don't know the opposing top tier decks and what's best for what.
Yeah, man we are always here to hope either me, aaron, or anybody else is here to help you and others.
Bant is definitely a good archetype to start with in Legacy.
Also, nah I didn't really see you being a lazy person. I mean, it seems like you spent time to put together your own deck and also study various Bant lists on the internet. Your putting effort in and that's what matters.
Feel free to ask questions and we will do our best as a legacy community to answer them.
Goodluck in your future Legacy tournaments and we are glad to have you as a legacy strategist.
I'd consider dropping the two MD Pridemages for a complete set of the CB/Top package. If you feel you need the hate MD, then put K-Grip in their place. Gives you more 3cc CB material. The exhausted isn't rly gonna get you anywhere.
Ok so it seems like everyone has a lot of opinions about what should be in and what shouldn't. Like I said, I'm just trying to have a solid deck to start with, and then do testing of my own. I hope I'm not coming across as "Build my deck for me." I definitely do appreciate all the input.
Everyone seems to think that Spell Snare should be the first contender to go. That does make sense. Provided I have CounterTop out, Daze, Goyf, and Counterbalance are 2 drops that do the same job. So that's 7 to have come up in my top 3 cards. I guess Spell Snare is better to run in Aggro or Excalibur.
Wasteland just seems like a great way to really screw your opponents tempo. Does my mana base look that bad where I would not even want to try running maybe 2? I will try my starting deck without them.
I will start with replacing them with 2 Misty Rainforest, 1 Forest, and 1 more Island. I will be getting some Flooded Strand in the next 2 weeks. But until then I have to work without them. I'll drop the 4 Spell Snare, add 2 Qasali Pridemage, 1 Ponder, and 1 Daze. The Daze I'm on the fence about only because what Aaron said before is that they're only good early game, and then they become FoW fodder. Maybe a 4th Counterbalance would be better.
I'm really hoping I can get a chance to play with this on Thursday. The new LGS I go to has a bunch of Legacy players, but they haven't been there the past few weeks due to the holiday. I'd like to show up with a cool deck to play them. So I guess I will try this out for now. Thanks again for everyone's input. I'm hoping soon enough to be able to contribute to this thread.
Yeah, you should definitely play with 4 tops with 4 counterbalance if you want to consistently assemble the softlock. Although, the softlock isn't as nearly as strong as it used to be so that might be one reason on why Nefasus only plays 3 copies of both cards. *Shrugs*
I have never liked using CounterTop in any color combinations. I guess that I may be too aggressive, but i could never get it consistently even with 4 and 4 copies. That is one of the great parts of this archetype, as i explained in the primer, one can adjust to his/her play style.
I'm not the greatest CTop player, but IMO, to get the "softlock" online and to have a better counterspell suite... the core should not have any Spell Snare Main board, and should have 4 tops and 4 Counterbalance Main. I feel that Qasali doesn't fit either, in the control build.
I think I like Counterspell over Daze in this type of shell. I feel that you don't want to lose tempo by bouncing Islands and you need :symu::symu: to cast Counterbalance anyways.
Brining in Firespout or EE from the board and/or Spell Snare can strengthen up the Tribal matchups.
I have never liked using CounterTop in any color combinations. I guess that I may be too aggressive, but i could never get it consistently even with 4 and 4 copies. That is one of the great parts of this archetype, as i explained in the primer, one can adjust to his/her play style.
I'm not the greatest CTop player, but IMO, to get the "softlock" online and to have a better counterspell suite... the core should not have any Spell Snare Main board, and should have 4 tops and 4 Counterbalance Main. I feel that Qasali doesn't fit either, in the control build.
I think I like Counterspell over Daze in this type of shell. I feel that you don't want to lose tempo by bouncing Islands and you need :symu::symu: to cast Counterbalance anyways.
Brining in Firespout or EE from the board and/or Spell Snare can strengthen up the Tribal matchups.
I agree with all your points.
I think counterspell is pretty solid in a countertop shell but sometimes daze can just be better since it's free. Also, since you play with Noble Hiearachs bouncing an island from casting a Daze for free isn't really all that bad.
I have never liked using CounterTop in any color combinations. I guess that I may be too aggressive, but i could never get it consistently even with 4 and 4 copies. That is one of the great parts of this archetype, as i explained in the primer, one can adjust to his/her play style.
I'm not the greatest CTop player, but IMO, to get the "softlock" online and to have a better counterspell suite... the core should not have any Spell Snare Main board, and should have 4 tops and 4 Counterbalance Main. I feel that Qasali doesn't fit either, in the control build.
I think I like Counterspell over Daze in this type of shell. I feel that you don't want to lose tempo by bouncing Islands and you need :symu::symu: to cast Counterbalance anyways.
Brining in Firespout or EE from the board and/or Spell Snare can strengthen up the Tribal matchups.
I totally agree with Kev. This is one of the best posts I've read in December (and I've been quietly looking at a LOT of stuff). I may not post much in this thread, but this is spot-on.
Question - Would you consider Clique to be in a more control-ish build? I looked at that core and thought the girls fit nicely. Especially if you're thinking of nixing Q.Pridemage for control-focused.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Clique was played in the 4c countertop list that top 8 at GP columbus and I felt that deck was one of the most controlling aggro-control builds around. Clique provided as both a clock and a disruption spell in one package and seemed to be quite powerful with Jace 2.0 and counterbalance.
Although, clique can also be effective in tempo oriented aggro-control builds like New Horizons, Team America, and of course Tempo Bant. From playing experience, Vendillion Clique is quite good against blue based decks while not as good against red based decks like zoo and goblins. But people might play clique in the zoo matchup to try to gain card advantage of 2 to 1 by grabbing a creature from their hand and then the zoo player would attempt to remove the clique with a burn spell or a pte.
Well I finally got my deck completed this past week! I got to play a few games on Thursday at my LGS. First I played my little brother who just got the Premium Fire and Lightning deck for Christmas. This wasn't a very fair match up so game 1 I kept a hand with a couple lands, 2 forces, 1 goyf, 1 top, and a Swords. Pretty slow game for me, not getting any good draws. Mid game I get CounterTop out. I end up losing a turn before I could have won. Haha. He ended up with good draws. He wins with FireblastReverberate, no counters in hand, hilarity ensues. We played several more games. He manages to beat me 3 or 4 out of 12 games. I manage Turn 4 Progenitus twice.
After that went to my LGS. Only 2 of the Legacy players show up. It's insanely packed. 29 people show up to draft. I managed to play one of them between his rounds. He has a Stax deck. I've read very little about other decks, and only know the basic idea of Stax.
Games 1 and 2 were completely rape for me. Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere lock me out. Game 2 I managed to start with Turn 1 and Hierarch, Turn 2 Goyf, Turn 3 Hierarch. He responds with Magus of the Tabernacle and Armageddon. I have no chance to recover. Game 3 I was doing a bit better, but the next draft round was called mid game so we had to stop.
The people watching us told me it was a bad match up for me, but damn that was so scary. My first real match and I was just completely wrecked. I still haven't put together a sideboard. For Stax obviously Krosan Grip would go in, Trygon Predator, Tormod's Crypt seem very useful as well. He was running Crucible/Wasteland. Is that match up just generally an uphill battle? I would like to go in next week with a better chance against that guy.
All in all, it was great to complete my first deck and actually get to use it. I managed to also acquire, 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Sword of Body and Mind, and 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor via trades. Going to try the Aggro and Excalibur versions out this week. I traded one of my FTV: Exiled sets for a Jace, and someone else is interested in doing the offer next Thursday. So I may just cave and buy a 3rd Jace to try a different control version out.
On a side note, the burns deck is a LOT better than the Slivers. Has some good Legacy singles in it. I recommend it to anyone, going to pick one up today for myself. My little brother is new to Magic and really enjoyed that deck so much. I've been trying to get him to play Legacy, and we looked into the Legacy Burn deck. He was very opposed to getting into Legacy just because of reading about decks that are capable of turn 1 wins. After looking at the Burn list, he changed his tune and should have all the needed cards by next week. Grim Lavamancer can be purchased for 6 each now. Getting a set for myself. My Legacy collection has grown so much these past 3 weeks. I can almost build Merfolk and Zoo now as well!
Well I finally got my deck completed this past week! I got to play a few games on Thursday at my LGS. First I played my little brother who just got the Premium Fire and Lightning deck for Christmas. This wasn't a very fair match up so game 1 I kept a hand with a couple lands, 2 forces, 1 goyf, 1 top, and a Swords. Pretty slow game for me, not getting any good draws. Mid game I get CounterTop out. I end up losing a turn before I could have won. Haha. He ended up with good draws. He wins with FireblastReverberate, no counters in hand, hilarity ensues. We played several more games. He manages to beat me 3 or 4 out of 12 games. I manage Turn 4 Progenitus twice.
After that went to my LGS. Only 2 of the Legacy players show up. It's insanely packed. 29 people show up to draft. I managed to play one of them between his rounds. He has a Stax deck. I've read very little about other decks, and only know the basic idea of Stax.
Games 1 and 2 were completely rape for me. Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere lock me out. Game 2 I managed to start with Turn 1 and Hierarch, Turn 2 Goyf, Turn 3 Hierarch. He responds with Magus of the Tabernacle and Armageddon. I have no chance to recover. Game 3 I was doing a bit better, but the next draft round was called mid game so we had to stop.
The people watching us told me it was a bad match up for me, but damn that was so scary. My first real match and I was just completely wrecked. I still haven't put together a sideboard. For Stax obviously Krosan Grip would go in, Trygon Predator, Tormod's Crypt seem very useful as well. He was running Crucible/Wasteland. Is that match up just generally an uphill battle? I would like to go in next week with a better chance against that guy.
All in all, it was great to complete my first deck and actually get to use it. I managed to also acquire, 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Sword of Body and Mind, and 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor via trades. Going to try the Aggro and Excalibur versions out this week. I traded one of my FTV: Exiled sets for a Jace, and someone else is interested in doing the offer next Thursday. So I may just cave and buy a 3rd Jace to try a different control version out.
On a side note, the burns deck is a LOT better than the Slivers. Has some good Legacy singles in it. I recommend it to anyone, going to pick one up today for myself. My little brother is new to Magic and really enjoyed that deck so much. I've been trying to get him to play Legacy, and we looked into the Legacy Burn deck. He was very opposed to getting into Legacy just because of reading about decks that are capable of turn 1 wins. After looking at the Burn list, he changed his tune and should have all the needed cards by next week. Grim Lavamancer can be purchased for 6 each now. Getting a set for myself. My Legacy collection has grown so much these past 3 weeks. I can almost build Merfolk and Zoo now as well!
Well, it takes a while to get used to playing CToP. Do you have the list of the deck you used?
Again, I'm not a good CToP player, in fact I dislike it a lot and I use the more aggro-based build. Any experienced CToP players have comments for Nefarsus?
At any rate, FYI, that Precon Burn deck isn't as good as the actual Legacy Burn deck. (i actually bought 4 Fire & Lightning decks myself and I am 1 FOIL Lava Spike away from a Foil Legacy Burn deck; as a side note LOL )
Anyways, the Burn Matchup should be managable. With CounterTop Online and a 2-drop, you can just about Counter 50% of their deck, give or take. My Immediate answers MD for burn is War monks, then, Spell Pirece/Snare Hydroblast comes in from the Board. If you are running Natural Order, Empyrial Archangel could be a beast from the board vs. Burn.
Finally, Stax is indeed a difficult matchup. Not impossible, but difficult. Being that you curve out at 4 probably, you need to get Noble Hierarch out really early and counter smokestack and Tanglewire.
Finally, Stax is indeed a difficult matchup. Not impossible, but difficult. Being that you curve out at 4 probably, you need to get Noble Hierarch out really early and counter smokestack and Tanglewire.
I never did see a Tanglewire get played, my biggest problems were Chalice and Trinisphere.
So I got to play some more games tonight. Played ANT 4 games. The guy didn't want to tell me what he was playing, even though when I first came in he asked what I had, and I had told him. I ended up going 2-2 against him. Late game Progenitus, and Turn 4 Progenitus ftw. After that I played U/B Merfolk. Got pretty beat there. 1-2. I don't have a sideboard completed yet, so that's going to make a huge difference. But they weren't sideboarding either. Well aside from ANT, who just Burning Wish into SB. I'll do a run down of all the games tonight or tomorrow when I get home.
All in all, it was fun to get some games in and really learning the opposition. ANT looks fun. It was cool watching it go off. Once a week to play Legacy is not enough though. Wish I could play more often. I hear there are a couple tournaments coming up in DC and Jersey. It'd be cool to get in a groove to enter those.
I never did see a Tanglewire get played, my biggest problems were Chalice and Trinisphere.
So I got to play some more games tonight. Played ANT 4 games. The guy didn't want to tell me what he was playing, even though when I first came in he asked what I had, and I had told him. I ended up going 2-2 against him. Late game Progenitus, and Turn 4 Progenitus ftw. After that I played U/B Merfolk. Got pretty beat there. 1-2. I don't have a sideboard completed yet, so that's going to make a huge difference. But they weren't sideboarding either. Well aside from ANT, who just Burning Wish into SB. I'll do a run down of all the games tonight or tomorrow when I get home.
All in all, it was fun to get some games in and really learning the opposition. ANT looks fun. It was cool watching it go off. Once a week to play Legacy is not enough though. Wish I could play more often. I hear there are a couple tournaments coming up in DC and Jersey. It'd be cool to get in a groove to enter those.
I'd like to ask you some questions Nefarsus. Hopefully you'll be able to benefit from them and I am not trying to criticize you or anything so don't worry.
In those games that you played, did you have to mulligan often?
Also, how did you lose the games against ANT? Couldn't assemble countertop in time or was there something else?
As for the ub merfolk matchup, yeah that matchup can be rather tough with their vials, merfolk lords and standstills if they are running them.
Overall, how do you like your deck? Is there anything you would change concerning the expected matchups for future tournaments and your play preference?
As for a sideboard you could try out something like this:
How about the goblins matchup? How are the matchups for u?
My meta has lots of them...Is Tivadar's Crusade a solution?
Well, if your meta is full of goblins you should play blue elemental/hydroblasts in the board as well as maindecking 3-4 stoneforge mystics with a couple of umezawa's jittes and sword of fire and ice. Stoneforge mystic is just nutty against aggro.
I know Rhox War Monk is good vs. Zoo, but am I the only person thinking Knight of the Reliquary is a much better creature vs. everything else?
He's proven himself in the legacy format in multiple decks, and even if you can throw in 1-2 wastelands, it makes him worthwhile. Add to that a dryad arbor & natural order package, and he just seems to make the most sense.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
I know Rhox War Monk is good vs. Zoo, but am I the only person thinking Knight of the Reliquary is a much better creature vs. everything else?
He's proven himself in the legacy format in multiple decks, and even if you can throw in 1-2 wastelands, it makes him worthwhile. Add to that a dryad arbor & natural order package, and he just seems to make the most sense.
Yeah, I run 3 and 3 in my current build, and 4 wastes
hi guys, im new in legacy and im starting to like this deck, but i dont know if it can be a budget, but still doesnt loose the competitiveness of the deck. thanks!
hi guys, im new in legacy and im starting to like this deck, but i dont know if it can be a budget, but still doesnt loose the competitiveness of the deck. thanks!
You can try a budget build if you don't care about DCI ratings etc., incase it doesn't work out to great. The thing is... you need Force ow will to counter stuff on your turn 0. I guess you can just run conventional counterspells and hope you don't get matched against a Belcher/SA/Storm deck, but that is inevitable.
Tarmogoyf is also Hard to replace. Reason is, I have been absolutely mana-screwed before (Plains and Noble Hierarch out only) and was still able to win with an Exalted Goyf.
Card replacement Choices (I guess; untested): click on spoiler
Rest of the deck should be cheap enough assuming your not runing Jace 2.0 (which there is no reps... maybe Jace 1.0 lol)
May I make a suggestion? I don't know your budget but I would say to try to invest in at least 4x Force of Will... even if you decide to play another deck with blue in it, most blue decks run that card
Is it possible to run this deck to a good end without the counterbalance package?
I day 2'd GP columbus and ended up 74th overall.... I had an aggro bant/control deck with the NO combo in the board.
Ran 2 elspeth 2 jace. in the main and depending on control or aggro match up kept one in over the other brining in half the combo.
From my experience... this deck is explosive and can just go over the top. (i even beat survival vine on day 2)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Never tell me the odds"
Legacy: GRB Belcher UUB Merfolk RRR Burn GWU Bant Walker RB Goblins
You had CTop in it? Or did you run the straight aggro/control? I don't Like jace or elspeth without CTop package. To me they are too slow in a straight aggro build.
sidenote: How did bringing in NO PRO from the board work? I never liked doing that, b/c they assume you have that main anyways, the experienced players anyhow.
Check out my Pro Excalibur build towards the Primer. It's fun.
First EDH deck http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=415455
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
I'd rather cut the wastelands and run more fetchlands that can fetch for green sources. Considering, one of your strongest agendas is to resolve a natural order.
I'd do something like -4 Wastelands, +2 Flooded Strand, +2 Misty Rainforest.
Also, I would make this change. -4 Spell Snare, +2 Qasali Pridemage, +1 Ponder, +1 Daze.
Everyone seems to think that Spell Snare should be the first contender to go. That does make sense. Provided I have CounterTop out, Daze, Goyf, and Counterbalance are 2 drops that do the same job. So that's 7 to have come up in my top 3 cards. I guess Spell Snare is better to run in Aggro or Excalibur.
Wasteland just seems like a great way to really screw your opponents tempo. Does my mana base look that bad where I would not even want to try running maybe 2? I will try my starting deck without them.
I will start with replacing them with 2 Misty Rainforest, 1 Forest, and 1 more Island. I will be getting some Flooded Strand in the next 2 weeks. But until then I have to work without them. I'll drop the 4 Spell Snare, add 2 Qasali Pridemage, 1 Ponder, and 1 Daze. The Daze I'm on the fence about only because what Aaron said before is that they're only good early game, and then they become FoW fodder. Maybe a 4th Counterbalance would be better.
I'm really hoping I can get a chance to play with this on Thursday. The new LGS I go to has a bunch of Legacy players, but they haven't been there the past few weeks due to the holiday. I'd like to show up with a cool deck to play them. So I guess I will try this out for now. Thanks again for everyone's input. I'm hoping soon enough to be able to contribute to this thread.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Progenitus
Instants - 19
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder
3 Natural Order
Enchantment - 3
3 Counterbalance
Artifact - 3
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Land - 18
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
First EDH deck http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=415455
Sure, it's a sound idea to listen to pretty good legacy players like Aaron but I think it's very important to find what cards work the best for you instead of just relying on other people to tell you if the card is good or not. I mean, I have my own reasons on why I would play the 4th daze or not and so does Aaron. So I suggest you do the same.
You should have the best of both worlds not just one.
As for adding a 4th counterbalance, it seems like it's good if you want to draw counterbalance every game. However, that can dictate on what your matchups are since boarding out counterbalance against any deck with Aether Vial seems logical to me. Both merfolks and goblins comes to mind in this case.
First EDH deck http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=415455
Yeah, man we are always here to hope either me, aaron, or anybody else is here to help you and others.
Bant is definitely a good archetype to start with in Legacy.
Also, nah I didn't really see you being a lazy person. I mean, it seems like you spent time to put together your own deck and also study various Bant lists on the internet. Your putting effort in and that's what matters.
Feel free to ask questions and we will do our best as a legacy community to answer them.
Goodluck in your future Legacy tournaments and we are glad to have you as a legacy strategist.
I'm not the greatest CTop player, but IMO, to get the "softlock" online and to have a better counterspell suite... the core should not have any Spell Snare Main board, and should have 4 tops and 4 Counterbalance Main. I feel that Qasali doesn't fit either, in the control build.
Something like this:
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining top
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
I think I like Counterspell over Daze in this type of shell. I feel that you don't want to lose tempo by bouncing Islands and you need :symu::symu: to cast Counterbalance anyways.
Brining in Firespout or EE from the board and/or Spell Snare can strengthen up the Tribal matchups.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
I agree with all your points.
I think counterspell is pretty solid in a countertop shell but sometimes daze can just be better since it's free. Also, since you play with Noble Hiearachs bouncing an island from casting a Daze for free isn't really all that bad.
I totally agree with Kev. This is one of the best posts I've read in December (and I've been quietly looking at a LOT of stuff). I may not post much in this thread, but this is spot-on.
Question - Would you consider Clique to be in a more control-ish build? I looked at that core and thought the girls fit nicely. Especially if you're thinking of nixing Q.Pridemage for control-focused.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Although, clique can also be effective in tempo oriented aggro-control builds like New Horizons, Team America, and of course Tempo Bant. From playing experience, Vendillion Clique is quite good against blue based decks while not as good against red based decks like zoo and goblins. But people might play clique in the zoo matchup to try to gain card advantage of 2 to 1 by grabbing a creature from their hand and then the zoo player would attempt to remove the clique with a burn spell or a pte.
After that went to my LGS. Only 2 of the Legacy players show up. It's insanely packed. 29 people show up to draft. I managed to play one of them between his rounds. He has a Stax deck. I've read very little about other decks, and only know the basic idea of Stax.
Games 1 and 2 were completely rape for me. Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere lock me out. Game 2 I managed to start with Turn 1 and Hierarch, Turn 2 Goyf, Turn 3 Hierarch. He responds with Magus of the Tabernacle and Armageddon. I have no chance to recover. Game 3 I was doing a bit better, but the next draft round was called mid game so we had to stop.
The people watching us told me it was a bad match up for me, but damn that was so scary. My first real match and I was just completely wrecked. I still haven't put together a sideboard. For Stax obviously Krosan Grip would go in, Trygon Predator, Tormod's Crypt seem very useful as well. He was running Crucible/Wasteland. Is that match up just generally an uphill battle? I would like to go in next week with a better chance against that guy.
All in all, it was great to complete my first deck and actually get to use it. I managed to also acquire, 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Sword of Body and Mind, and 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor via trades. Going to try the Aggro and Excalibur versions out this week. I traded one of my FTV: Exiled sets for a Jace, and someone else is interested in doing the offer next Thursday. So I may just cave and buy a 3rd Jace to try a different control version out.
On a side note, the burns deck is a LOT better than the Slivers. Has some good Legacy singles in it. I recommend it to anyone, going to pick one up today for myself. My little brother is new to Magic and really enjoyed that deck so much. I've been trying to get him to play Legacy, and we looked into the Legacy Burn deck. He was very opposed to getting into Legacy just because of reading about decks that are capable of turn 1 wins. After looking at the Burn list, he changed his tune and should have all the needed cards by next week. Grim Lavamancer can be purchased for 6 each now. Getting a set for myself. My Legacy collection has grown so much these past 3 weeks. I can almost build Merfolk and Zoo now as well!
First EDH deck http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=415455
Well, it takes a while to get used to playing CToP. Do you have the list of the deck you used?
Again, I'm not a good CToP player, in fact I dislike it a lot and I use the more aggro-based build. Any experienced CToP players have comments for Nefarsus?
At any rate, FYI, that Precon Burn deck isn't as good as the actual Legacy Burn deck. (i actually bought 4 Fire & Lightning decks myself and I am 1 FOIL Lava Spike away from a Foil Legacy Burn deck; as a side note LOL )
Anyways, the Burn Matchup should be managable. With CounterTop Online and a 2-drop, you can just about Counter 50% of their deck, give or take. My Immediate answers MD for burn is War monks, then, Spell Pirece/Snare Hydroblast comes in from the Board. If you are running Natural Order, Empyrial Archangel could be a beast from the board vs. Burn.
Finally, Stax is indeed a difficult matchup. Not impossible, but difficult. Being that you curve out at 4 probably, you need to get Noble Hierarch out really early and counter smokestack and Tanglewire.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Progenitus
Instants - 19
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder
3 Natural Order
Enchantment - 3
3 Counterbalance
Artifact - 3
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Land - 18
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
I never did see a Tanglewire get played, my biggest problems were Chalice and Trinisphere.
So I got to play some more games tonight. Played ANT 4 games. The guy didn't want to tell me what he was playing, even though when I first came in he asked what I had, and I had told him. I ended up going 2-2 against him. Late game Progenitus, and Turn 4 Progenitus ftw. After that I played U/B Merfolk. Got pretty beat there. 1-2. I don't have a sideboard completed yet, so that's going to make a huge difference. But they weren't sideboarding either. Well aside from ANT, who just Burning Wish into SB. I'll do a run down of all the games tonight or tomorrow when I get home.
All in all, it was fun to get some games in and really learning the opposition. ANT looks fun. It was cool watching it go off. Once a week to play Legacy is not enough though. Wish I could play more often. I hear there are a couple tournaments coming up in DC and Jersey. It'd be cool to get in a groove to enter those.
First EDH deck http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=415455
I'd like to ask you some questions Nefarsus. Hopefully you'll be able to benefit from them and I am not trying to criticize you or anything so don't worry.
In those games that you played, did you have to mulligan often?
Also, how did you lose the games against ANT? Couldn't assemble countertop in time or was there something else?
As for the ub merfolk matchup, yeah that matchup can be rather tough with their vials, merfolk lords and standstills if they are running them.
Overall, how do you like your deck? Is there anything you would change concerning the expected matchups for future tournaments and your play preference?
As for a sideboard you could try out something like this:
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell pierce
2 Path to Exile
1 Relic of progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
My meta has lots of them...Is Tivadar's Crusade a solution?
Well, if your meta is full of goblins you should play blue elemental/hydroblasts in the board as well as maindecking 3-4 stoneforge mystics with a couple of umezawa's jittes and sword of fire and ice. Stoneforge mystic is just nutty against aggro.
He's proven himself in the legacy format in multiple decks, and even if you can throw in 1-2 wastelands, it makes him worthwhile. Add to that a dryad arbor & natural order package, and he just seems to make the most sense.
Yeah, I run 3 and 3 in my current build, and 4 wastes
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
You can try a budget build if you don't care about DCI ratings etc., incase it doesn't work out to great. The thing is... you need Force ow will to counter stuff on your turn 0. I guess you can just run conventional counterspells and hope you don't get matched against a Belcher/SA/Storm deck, but that is inevitable.
Tarmogoyf is also Hard to replace. Reason is, I have been absolutely mana-screwed before (Plains and Noble Hierarch out only) and was still able to win with an Exalted Goyf.
Card replacement Choices (I guess; untested):
click on spoiler
budget options:
Tarmogoyf --> Quirion Dryad or Troll Ascetic or Werebear
Force of Will --> substitute Daze for it, then in Daze slots run Spell Pierce or Spell Snare or Counterspell
Noble Hierarch --> Birds or Paradise (you'll muss the exalted though)
Dual Lands --> Shocklands (e.g. Watery Grave; 3 life hurts with a fetch though)
Fetchlands --> can't really rep... Newer Island/plains/Forest Fetches from Zendikar (cheaper)
Rest of the deck should be cheap enough assuming your not runing Jace 2.0 (which there is no reps... maybe Jace 1.0 lol)
May I make a suggestion? I don't know your budget but I would say to try to invest in at least 4x Force of Will... even if you decide to play another deck with blue in it, most blue decks run that card
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
I day 2'd GP columbus and ended up 74th overall.... I had an aggro bant/control deck with the NO combo in the board.
Ran 2 elspeth 2 jace. in the main and depending on control or aggro match up kept one in over the other brining in half the combo.
From my experience... this deck is explosive and can just go over the top. (i even beat survival vine on day 2)
Legacy:
GRB Belcher
UUB Merfolk
RRR Burn
GWU Bant Walker
RB Goblins
sidenote: How did bringing in NO PRO from the board work? I never liked doing that, b/c they assume you have that main anyways, the experienced players anyhow.
Check out my Pro Excalibur build towards the Primer. It's fun.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur