I decided to gear my Board towards my weaker matchups. It is definately harder for me to beat Merfolk than say Goblins or Zoo (looking here at my mana base, the Island walk vs. Me is Brutal.) I use Firespout and Dueling Grounds (they are virtually interchangeable; enough to improve my odds against Zoo\Gobs), the problem is, that Cursecatcher takes care of Firespout so in that case Dueling Grounds is slightly better both on the offensive and defensive. Here in lies the problem: they still have islandwalk LOL... so a Coralhelm Commander leveled up w/ several lords out(esp. Lord of Atlantis) can still do serious damage to me, cause Goyfs can't block anyway, even without them having isandwalk. So I decided to devote 3 slots on the board to deal with Merfolk, probably Bants worst matchup IMO.
My Logic: If you can't beat them, join them via Merfolk Assassin. It's CMC is 1 less than Firespout or Dueling grounds and running 6 island duals, i can cast it fairly easy on turn 2 with counter protection. If i get that AND dueling grounds out vs. Merfolk they can have problems in which they will only be able to attack with 1 merfolk, or they hold on to their lords of atlantis for fear of the assassin or Exatled islandwalking assassin (lord give ALL OTHER merfolk islandwalk), thereby delaying them long enough for you to get exalted warmonks/goyfs/knights online, or get rid of your island duals via KoTR.
Well, ironically, lately i have not been paired vs. Merfolk, and the 1 time i did a few weeks ago, even though I had assassin in my opening hand, I faced Mana Screw, not getting :symu::symu: online until turn 5-ish.
Therefore, my anti-Merfolk tech is still questionable, and requires more testing.
That doesn't sound bad, but already i feel like there isn't enough creatures sometimes. I was thinking about going with 61 cards though.(anti-Mill tech; provided its not infinite mill lol) I find it dosen't affect your draws much so I'm thinking about cramming in a Stifle or a Karakas (MD anti-Iona/Emrakul tech)
Okay, that sounds sensible. I think the merfolk assassin tech could work because it seems similiar to the preacher tech in landstill to fight off the same matchup. Besides, you can get out merfolk assassin a turn sooner with noble hierach in addition to having a land open to cast pierce or play around an opposing daze.
Well, you don't have to play with 4 stifles but I guess that depends on what you play against. Although, against a deck like vengevine survival; if they don't have early Hierarch/Bird, both stifle and wasteland become substantially better. So that may be a good reason to play with 4 stifles and 4 wastes. *shrugs*
is 4 daze really that good? i hate returning a land to my hand early in the game when i cant pay to cast daze, then im back to the same clock as last turn likely NOT getting my 3cc spells out. also against the numerous wasteland decks you have to fetch a basic island into play which helps nearly none of you creatures but rhox, you need a forest early most of the time to develop, an island to defend your position, and tropical is likely to get wasted. i consistantly run 3 daze, i say 4 stifle 3 daze because we need our mana development early in the game and stifle can defend vs wasteland. makes tropicals better as you can drop it with a waste on opponents field, pass the turn and stifle, top,brainstorm,daze, what have you.
is 4 daze really that good? i hate returning a land to my hand early in the game when i cant pay to cast daze, then im back to the same clock as last turn likely NOT getting my 3cc spells out. also against the numerous wasteland decks you have to fetch a basic island into play which helps nearly none of you creatures but rhox, you need a forest early most of the time to develop, an island to defend your position, and tropical is likely to get wasted. i consistantly run 3 daze, i say 4 stifle 3 daze because we need our mana development early in the game and stifle can defend vs wasteland. makes tropicals better as you can drop it with a waste on opponents field, pass the turn and stifle, top,brainstorm,daze, what have you.
It's a personal preference, really. However, I believe that one needs 4 Daze to be effective for the early game. the way i look at it: You drop a Trop > Noble, if they wasteland they will have no for the daze you will cast on them next turn. And you still have noble and maybe a fetch to grab a basic island if you suspect another waste in their hand. And depending on your hand/fetch grab, you can have a 1/2 Goyf, a noble, WITH counter protection and they have NO LAND. Sounds like you haven't sacrificed any tempo to me. It also highly depends on who goes first. Extra Daze become FoW Fodder later as well.
I have experimented alot with the counter package in this deck, i even tried 2-3 pierce main. My win percentage goes up slightly with 4 daze as opposed to 3 daze. Dazing an opponents noble in the mirror is a wicked play. I'm not saying that 4 stifle isn't as equally as good, I'm just saying that an available Daze is very good turns 1-2. I will probably even run my 4th Stifle as my 61st card.
I don't think the 4th daze should be looked at as a personal preference because imo it's not. Considering, it happens to be a pretty dang good card especially in a deck with both stifle and wastelands. Also, by running hierarchs you can basically neglect the draw back from casting daze for free.
I don't think the 4th daze should be looked at as a personal preference because imo it's not. Considering, it happens to be a pretty dang good card especially in a deck with both stifle and wastelands. Also, by running hierarchs you can basically neglect the draw back from casting daze for free.
Yes, IMO... there shouldn't be less than 4 Daze in the deck, cause it is probably the 2nd best counter ever printed, but if you straight up refuse to run more than exactly 60 cards and you HAVE to have 4 stifle, logically, cut a daze or a spell snare for the stifle... I know a lot of people that refuse to run more than 3 Daze, I was once like this too; I just find 4 daze, 3 spell snare, 3 stifle, 4 FoW and 6 cantrips to be well balanced and I can tell you, i have been using this deck for months; My record is not as good when i only run 3 daze... call me crazy but i swear the deck even plays differently LOL.
3 vs 4 Daze has been one of those highly argued points for a long time. Therefore, I believe it's a personal preference in what you believe in... but I HIGHLY RECCOMMEND that one runs 4
Yes, IMO... there shouldn't be less than 4 Daze in the deck, cause it is probably the 2nd best counter ever printed, but if you straight up refuse to run more than exactly 60 cards and you HAVE to have 4 stifle, logically, cut a daze or a spell snare for the stifle... I know a lot of people that refuse to run more than 3 Daze, I was once like this too; I just find 4 daze, 3 spell snare, 3 stifle, 4 FoW and 6 cantrips to be well balanced and I can tell you, i have been using this deck for months; My record is not as good when i only run 3 daze... call me crazy but i swear the deck even plays differently LOL.
3 vs 4 Daze has been one of those highly argued points for a long time. Therefore, I believe it's a personal preference in what you believe in... but I HIGHLY RECCOMMEND that one runs 4
So your telling me that your record is like 15-2 with 3 dazes and like 12-4 with 4 dazes?
In all seriousness, here is what I have been kinda messing around with as of late. It seems promising against vengevine survival assuming survival doesn't get banned. Although, I would like to note that I haven't really gotten that much of a chance to test it extensively.
In all seriousness, here is what I have been kinda messing around with as of late. It seems promising against vengevine survival assuming survival doesn't get banned. Although, I would like to note that I haven't really gotten that much of a chance to test it extensively.
Interesting... from the yard to battle SotF. This could work. Even without splashing I like the MD EEs. This opens up Engineered Plague for the tribal matchups too.
I'm probably not going to change the build of any of my decks drastically, until Dec. 20th. When the Banned/Restricted Lists get updated.
Yeah, setting EE at three can still be pretty good. I think the only reason why I like the black splash though is because of fetchlands and knight of the reliquary. I don't think splashing for a fourth color would be as good without additional/alternate ways to fetch.
Although, extirpate seems questionable against ooze survival because even if you extirpate their vengevines they can still beat you with necrotic ooze and this goes vice versa as well. But I suppose that's why I also have a Bojuka Bog in the board and I should really be playing with 4 KOTRs since they are really good.
Isn't this basicly New Horizons? without the Horizon Canopy and Terravore?
Not Really. The decks play A LOT differently. I played New Horizons for a couple of weeks and I felt it was too slow.
This list here is Kevinliu's experimental build featuring a splash from the board. It is also more "control" feel to it. New Horizons is a meta deck that feasts off of all the Fetch lands and card types.
Well, Klejs isn't totally off but yeah it's more like tempo bant with the splash of black to shore up the survival matchup. The main difference between these builds and New Horizons is Noble Hierarch which I think is a substantial difference as far as mulligan decisions goes. Noble hierarch with one forest in an opening hand can go a long ways as far as keeping the hand or not.
I'm new to competitive and have had an interest in Legacy for a bit now. I've been tying to build this deck as my entry into the format. Just 4 wasteland and 4 Tarmogoyfs and I'll have the CounterTop control version (no Jace). A couple of questions; is this a good starter deck for a newbie ( cost aside) to get into Legacy, and is the NO control version viable without Jace?
I originally liked the concept of Spanish Inquistion and TES, but I tried to goldfish them and they seem insanely complex. I then chose Bant because I had most of the duals and Forces already. And I've just been dying to play a real control deck. Should I not bother playing until I get a few Jaces though?
I'm new to competitive and have had an interest in Legacy for a bit now. I've been tying to build this deck as my entry into the format. Just 4 wasteland and 4 Tarmogoyfs and I'll have the CounterTop control version (no Jace). A couple of questions; is this a good starter deck for a newbie ( cost aside) to get into Legacy, and is the NO control version viable without Jace?
Well, I'm not much of a control player, but IMO Jace 2.0 isn't the core of the deck. Is he good? Yes.... Is he as good in Legacy as he is in Standard? No. In CounterTop and decks of the like, Jace is pretty solid though. The most I have used Jace 2.0 on Legacy is SideBoarding Him in the Pro Excalibur Variant. I wasn't all that impressed with him, but granted Pro Excalibur is Aggro Based. I would imagine Jace is better with counter top. I would say you can run other things in place of Jace, like the equips package, if you want to see how it plays, before deciding to drop $350 on a playset of Jace 2.0. I don't think he makes or breaks the control version, but he is definately a threat. note: I have seen Jace's Ultimate only 1 time in Legacy. You won't win with him only very often.
I'm not sure if this is a good Legacy starter deck, but most people don't have the cards to make these sort of decks in their first foray into the format. I always say the best way to learn a deck is to make it and use it. I think one has to grasp the Meta IMO to be effective. Yes, learning the deck you make is important, but knowing what's out there and how to beat it greatly improves the way you play your deck, guessing what your opponent will do, as well as enabling you to make better Side Boards.
The biggest thing about Bant is that it is a tempo deck. You need to know when to mulligan, keep a hand with a noble and a basic forest or not, etc. That's why i think, compared to other Legacy decks like Gobs, it isn't as straightforward.
I originally liked the concept of Spanish Inquistion and TES, but I tried to goldfish them and they seem insanely complex. I then chose Bant because I had most of the duals and Forces already. And I've just been dying to play a real control deck. Should I not bother playing until I get a few Jaces though?
I have made and taken apart in the last year or so(Combo):
TES
Pact Spanish Inquisition
ANT**** (My Fav)
Belcher
Fetchland Tendrils
Ever since the banning of Mystical Tutor, I switched from ANT to variuos other combo decks trying to find something consistent. They aren't that complex, but something you will notice about Bant over Combo decks: it is a very consistent deck (Like Gobs, my other Favorite deck). I find that you have a decent chance of beating most decks, about 50/50 (except Merfolk; more like 30/70 pre-board).
Yeah, Aaron is spot on. I would much rather play Jace the mindsculptor in a countertop build then a non-countertop build. Having the ability to constantly protect Jace under counterbalance is pretty huge imo.
Alright! I've got almost everything coming! A week of hardcore and persistent trading has paid off! All I need is Flooded Strand. But I feel like I can build something for now until I obtain those. So how does something like this look?
I'm gonna have to start doing some testing to see what really works, but I just wanted to have a starting point. KotR seems so good with fetchlands and wastelands. Any suggestions? Also, I pretty much have a playset of every card used to build the Control version of this deck. I just don't know what's optimal.
Alright! I've got almost everything coming! A week of hardcore and persistent trading has paid off! All I need is Flooded Strand. But I feel like I can build something for now until I obtain those. So how does something like this look?
I'm gonna have to start doing some testing to see what really works, but I just wanted to have a starting point. KotR seems so good with fetchlands and wastelands. Any suggestions? Also, I pretty much have a playset of every card used to build the Control version of this deck. I just don't know what's optimal.
That build looks good, but IMO, I think you should move the 2 Spell Peirce to the Board and add 1 Daze and 1 Natural Order. I Feel that 2 of things that you can't tutor For (or self-contained win cons ala Jace 2.0) will be very inconsistent. 3-ofs just provide the necessary proportions to ave better chances. Daze for instance doesn't shine beyond turn 3-4 in most cases. If you only have 2, you may never even see it all game long, even with all the Cantripping going on. Spell Pierce is also a weak card for one of our worst matchups possible; Merfolk. That's why I think Spell Pierce goes on the board unless you have a bunch of extra slots main deck lol.
That build looks good, but IMO, I think you should move the 2 Spell Peirce to the Board and add 1 Daze and 1 Natural Order. I Feel that 2 of things that you can't tutor For (or self-contained win cons ala Jace 2.0) will be very inconsistent. 3-ofs just provide the necessary proportions to ave better chances. Daze for instance doesn't shine beyond turn 3-4 in most cases. If you only have 2, you may never even see it all game long, even with all the Cantripping going on. Spell Pierce is also a weak card for one of our worst matchups possible; Merfolk. That's why I think Spell Pierce goes on the board unless you have a bunch of extra slots main deck lol.
OK cool, thanks for your input. I wasn't sure about Spell Pierce. It looks like an awesome card though. What exactly makes it weak against Merfolk? More creature spells played than anything else? Your comment about Daze being weak later on makes sense. So I assume that they become fodder to for FoW? I've got another list that I've been working with I'll post in this spot later.
How do other Planeswalkers fair up in this deck? I was thinking of adding a Jace Belern as a one of for now. Some added card draw always seems like a good addition, and at the very least he feeds Tarmogoyf in the graveyard. Any input? Thanks again for the advice. I will be playing some Legacy next week
OK cool, thanks for your input. I wasn't sure about Spell Pierce. It looks like an awesome card though. What exactly makes it weak against Merfolk? More creature spells played than anything else? Your comment about Daze being weak later on makes sense. So I assume that they become fodder to for FoW? I've got another list that I've been working with I'll post in this spot later.
I usually keep 3 Pierce on the sideboard if im playing against Combo or Control. I find it isn't as useful against any kind of aggro deck except maybe Zoo. The problem is, Merfolk has a lot of counter as well as you. I suppose its good to have against the turn 1 Æther Vial.
How do other Planeswalkers fair up in this deck? I was thinking of adding a Jace Belern as a one of for now. Some added card draw always seems like a good addition, and at the very least he feeds Tarmogoyf in the graveyard. Any input? Thanks again for the advice. I will be playing some Legacy next week
Well... Planeswalkers aren't generally as good in Legacy as they are in say Standard. I have only really seen 3 used extensively: Jace, The Mindsculptor, Elspeth, Knight Errant, and Tezzeret the Seeker. I have yet to see any others used to as much success. Jace 2.0 goes nicely into CounterTop, MUC, Elspeth goes good in Staxx, MWC type decks, and Tezz is only really used in Bomberman. In other words, there is only really 3 of them used in very specific decks. 4 CMC is really the max you can go in Legacy (unless cheated into play). My theory is that until there is a Reanimate for Planeswalkers, most of them probably won't be used in Legacy.
As far as Bant is concerned. I guess you could mess around with Jace 1.0 until you get Jace 2.0s, just don't be upset/surprised if jace 1.0 is pitched to FoW most of the time lol.
Whenever I am on the play, I usually board in spell pierces because countering a first turn Vial can go a long ways in winning the merfolk matchup. It's a priority in stopping a Aether Vial at all costs especially since it's lethal with their standstills. Although, spell pierces seems amazing on the draw as well, especially if you want to protect your Stoneforge mystic from force of will or even daze.
As for playing plainswalkers, I ran both Jace the mindsculptor and Elsepth, knight-Errant in Countertop Bant. Elspeth is a pretty good card against zoo and Jace is of course amazing against blue based decks like New Horizons and the mirror.
Wasteland and Knight of the Reliquary were originally in the deck, but I couldn't find a way to fit both of them in without compromising on other useful elements, such as the utility offered by Qasali Pridemage and the equipment package.
At least my playset of Knight of the Reliquary will now be free to go into my upcoming Dark Horizons deck.
Are there any major differences in gameplay with Bant Aggro compared to New Horizons, other than being less susceptible to graveyard hate, and having more creatures?
I think any deck with wastelands and stifles is bound to play much differently then a deck without either. But that's for a fact that wasteland happens to be an absurd card and stifle can also be insane in almost any matchup. So having a deck with both mana disruption and countermagic can just win games on it's own.
Also, Aaron's Pro excalibur build can be solid in the right metagame. However, with survival being banned, Bant Aggro/Control in general seems like a pretty solid choice. Just watch out for merfolks though but that matchup can be properly metagamed against.
Also, Aaron's Pro excalibur build can be solid in the right metagame. However, with survival being banned, Bant Aggro/Control in general seems like a pretty solid choice. Just watch out for merfolks though but that matchup can be properly metagamed against.
Are you suggesting a different Bant variant, or are you just saying that Bant (whatever the variant) is generally fine to use?
Are you suggesting a different Bant variant, or are you just saying that Bant (whatever the variant) is generally fine to use?
I am saying any Bant variant is fine to use. I mean stoneforge mystic with noble hierarch and equipment is very strong in the format. Noble hierarch is just bonkers in alot of matchups as well. Considering, Hierarch enables you to play everything in your deck a turn faster.
You could always splash red for maindeck firespouts as well if you really wanted to but it just seems more practical to just maindeck a couple of equipment with stoneforge. Especially since Noble Hierarch can be quite strong against mana denial decks(Example: Merfolks and Goblins).
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Okay, that sounds sensible. I think the merfolk assassin tech could work because it seems similiar to the preacher tech in landstill to fight off the same matchup. Besides, you can get out merfolk assassin a turn sooner with noble hierach in addition to having a land open to cast pierce or play around an opposing daze.
Well, you don't have to play with 4 stifles but I guess that depends on what you play against. Although, against a deck like vengevine survival; if they don't have early Hierarch/Bird, both stifle and wasteland become substantially better. So that may be a good reason to play with 4 stifles and 4 wastes. *shrugs*
It's a personal preference, really. However, I believe that one needs 4 Daze to be effective for the early game. the way i look at it: You drop a Trop > Noble, if they wasteland they will have no for the daze you will cast on them next turn. And you still have noble and maybe a fetch to grab a basic island if you suspect another waste in their hand. And depending on your hand/fetch grab, you can have a 1/2 Goyf, a noble, WITH counter protection and they have NO LAND. Sounds like you haven't sacrificed any tempo to me. It also highly depends on who goes first. Extra Daze become FoW Fodder later as well.
I have experimented alot with the counter package in this deck, i even tried 2-3 pierce main. My win percentage goes up slightly with 4 daze as opposed to 3 daze. Dazing an opponents noble in the mirror is a wicked play. I'm not saying that 4 stifle isn't as equally as good, I'm just saying that an available Daze is very good turns 1-2. I will probably even run my 4th Stifle as my 61st card.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Yes, IMO... there shouldn't be less than 4 Daze in the deck, cause it is probably the 2nd best counter ever printed, but if you straight up refuse to run more than exactly 60 cards and you HAVE to have 4 stifle, logically, cut a daze or a spell snare for the stifle... I know a lot of people that refuse to run more than 3 Daze, I was once like this too; I just find 4 daze, 3 spell snare, 3 stifle, 4 FoW and 6 cantrips to be well balanced and I can tell you, i have been using this deck for months; My record is not as good when i only run 3 daze... call me crazy but i swear the deck even plays differently LOL.
3 vs 4 Daze has been one of those highly argued points for a long time. Therefore, I believe it's a personal preference in what you believe in... but I HIGHLY RECCOMMEND that one runs 4
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
So your telling me that your record is like 15-2 with 3 dazes and like 12-4 with 4 dazes?
In all seriousness, here is what I have been kinda messing around with as of late. It seems promising against vengevine survival assuming survival doesn't get banned. Although, I would like to note that I haven't really gotten that much of a chance to test it extensively.
2 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
Creatures
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Preordain
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Bayou
3 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
1 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Spell Pierce
2 Nature's Claim
something like that! lol
Interesting... from the yard to battle SotF. This could work. Even without splashing I like the MD EEs. This opens up Engineered Plague for the tribal matchups too.
I'm probably not going to change the build of any of my decks drastically, until Dec. 20th. When the Banned/Restricted Lists get updated.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Although, extirpate seems questionable against ooze survival because even if you extirpate their vengevines they can still beat you with necrotic ooze and this goes vice versa as well. But I suppose that's why I also have a Bojuka Bog in the board and I should really be playing with 4 KOTRs since they are really good.
2 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
Creatures
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Preordain
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Bayou
3 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
1 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Spell Pierce
2 Nature's Claim
Isn't this basicly New Horizons? without the Horizon Canopy and Terravore?
Said about Yawgmoth’s Will
Credits to Miraculous Recovery Signatures for the truly miraculous sig.
GURRUG Delver
RGoblins
RUGPunishing Balance
Modern:
UR Izzet Tron
Not Really. The decks play A LOT differently. I played New Horizons for a couple of weeks and I felt it was too slow.
This list here is Kevinliu's experimental build featuring a splash from the board. It is also more "control" feel to it. New Horizons is a meta deck that feasts off of all the Fetch lands and card types.
Usually, New Horizons creature base is ONLY this:
4 Terravore
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Notice the lack of Exalted, Noble Hierarch, etc.
A single, well protected Relic of Progenitus can beat New Horizons.
Bant Aggro plays more like Zoo. Cheap, effecient creatures that swing, and you have Counter Complementing your creature base instead of Zoo's Burn.
Here is the Creature package in my build:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
This is less dependent on the GY. With wicked tempo, you could possibly be attacking with a 5/6 beater with lifelink on turn 3.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
I originally liked the concept of Spanish Inquistion and TES, but I tried to goldfish them and they seem insanely complex. I then chose Bant because I had most of the duals and Forces already. And I've just been dying to play a real control deck. Should I not bother playing until I get a few Jaces though?
First EDH deck http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=415455
Well, I'm not much of a control player, but IMO Jace 2.0 isn't the core of the deck. Is he good? Yes.... Is he as good in Legacy as he is in Standard? No. In CounterTop and decks of the like, Jace is pretty solid though. The most I have used Jace 2.0 on Legacy is SideBoarding Him in the Pro Excalibur Variant. I wasn't all that impressed with him, but granted Pro Excalibur is Aggro Based. I would imagine Jace is better with counter top. I would say you can run other things in place of Jace, like the equips package, if you want to see how it plays, before deciding to drop $350 on a playset of Jace 2.0. I don't think he makes or breaks the control version, but he is definately a threat. note: I have seen Jace's Ultimate only 1 time in Legacy. You won't win with him only very often.
I'm not sure if this is a good Legacy starter deck, but most people don't have the cards to make these sort of decks in their first foray into the format. I always say the best way to learn a deck is to make it and use it. I think one has to grasp the Meta IMO to be effective. Yes, learning the deck you make is important, but knowing what's out there and how to beat it greatly improves the way you play your deck, guessing what your opponent will do, as well as enabling you to make better Side Boards.
For example, alot of newbies in Legacy think that Spell Snare is awful... In Legacy it only counters the most rediculous things lol, like Tarmogoyf, Daze, Survival of the Fittest, Gaddock Teeg, Counterbalance, Umezawa's Jitte, just to name a few INCREDIBLE game changing Legacy staples.
The biggest thing about Bant is that it is a tempo deck. You need to know when to mulligan, keep a hand with a noble and a basic forest or not, etc. That's why i think, compared to other Legacy decks like Gobs, it isn't as straightforward.
I have made and taken apart in the last year or so(Combo):
TES
Pact Spanish Inquisition
ANT**** (My Fav)
Belcher
Fetchland Tendrils
Ever since the banning of Mystical Tutor, I switched from ANT to variuos other combo decks trying to find something consistent. They aren't that complex, but something you will notice about Bant over Combo decks: it is a very consistent deck (Like Gobs, my other Favorite deck). I find that you have a decent chance of beating most decks, about 50/50 (except Merfolk; more like 30/70 pre-board).
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Progenitus
Instants - 22
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Natural Order
Enchantment - 3
3 Counterbalance
Artifact - 3
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Land - 18
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
I'm gonna have to start doing some testing to see what really works, but I just wanted to have a starting point. KotR seems so good with fetchlands and wastelands. Any suggestions? Also, I pretty much have a playset of every card used to build the Control version of this deck. I just don't know what's optimal.
First EDH deck http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=415455
That build looks good, but IMO, I think you should move the 2 Spell Peirce to the Board and add 1 Daze and 1 Natural Order. I Feel that 2 of things that you can't tutor For (or self-contained win cons ala Jace 2.0) will be very inconsistent. 3-ofs just provide the necessary proportions to ave better chances. Daze for instance doesn't shine beyond turn 3-4 in most cases. If you only have 2, you may never even see it all game long, even with all the Cantripping going on. Spell Pierce is also a weak card for one of our worst matchups possible; Merfolk. That's why I think Spell Pierce goes on the board unless you have a bunch of extra slots main deck lol.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
OK cool, thanks for your input. I wasn't sure about Spell Pierce. It looks like an awesome card though. What exactly makes it weak against Merfolk? More creature spells played than anything else? Your comment about Daze being weak later on makes sense. So I assume that they become fodder to for FoW? I've got another list that I've been working with I'll post in this spot later.
How do other Planeswalkers fair up in this deck? I was thinking of adding a Jace Belern as a one of for now. Some added card draw always seems like a good addition, and at the very least he feeds Tarmogoyf in the graveyard. Any input? Thanks again for the advice. I will be playing some Legacy next week
First EDH deck http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=415455
I usually keep 3 Pierce on the sideboard if im playing against Combo or Control. I find it isn't as useful against any kind of aggro deck except maybe Zoo. The problem is, Merfolk has a lot of counter as well as you. I suppose its good to have against the turn 1 Æther Vial.
And yes, Daze becomes good FoW Fodder.
Well... Planeswalkers aren't generally as good in Legacy as they are in say Standard. I have only really seen 3 used extensively: Jace, The Mindsculptor, Elspeth, Knight Errant, and Tezzeret the Seeker. I have yet to see any others used to as much success. Jace 2.0 goes nicely into CounterTop, MUC, Elspeth goes good in Staxx, MWC type decks, and Tezz is only really used in Bomberman. In other words, there is only really 3 of them used in very specific decks. 4 CMC is really the max you can go in Legacy (unless cheated into play). My theory is that until there is a Reanimate for Planeswalkers, most of them probably won't be used in Legacy.
As far as Bant is concerned. I guess you could mess around with Jace 1.0 until you get Jace 2.0s, just don't be upset/surprised if jace 1.0 is pitched to FoW most of the time lol.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
As for playing plainswalkers, I ran both Jace the mindsculptor and Elsepth, knight-Errant in Countertop Bant. Elspeth is a pretty good card against zoo and Jace is of course amazing against blue based decks like New Horizons and the mirror.
1 Island
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Natural Order
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Wasteland and Knight of the Reliquary were originally in the deck, but I couldn't find a way to fit both of them in without compromising on other useful elements, such as the utility offered by Qasali Pridemage and the equipment package.
At least my playset of Knight of the Reliquary will now be free to go into my upcoming Dark Horizons deck.
Are there any major differences in gameplay with Bant Aggro compared to New Horizons, other than being less susceptible to graveyard hate, and having more creatures?
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
Also, Aaron's Pro excalibur build can be solid in the right metagame. However, with survival being banned, Bant Aggro/Control in general seems like a pretty solid choice. Just watch out for merfolks though but that matchup can be properly metagamed against.
Are you suggesting a different Bant variant, or are you just saying that Bant (whatever the variant) is generally fine to use?
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
I am saying any Bant variant is fine to use. I mean stoneforge mystic with noble hierarch and equipment is very strong in the format. Noble hierarch is just bonkers in alot of matchups as well. Considering, Hierarch enables you to play everything in your deck a turn faster.
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
You could always splash red for maindeck firespouts as well if you really wanted to but it just seems more practical to just maindeck a couple of equipment with stoneforge. Especially since Noble Hierarch can be quite strong against mana denial decks(Example: Merfolks and Goblins).