How do you feel about Ratchet Bomb? I'm experimenting with it at FNM tonight. There is a 40-man Legacy tourney tomorrow about 1 hour from where i live. I'm either going to use Bant Aggro or Goblins.
It's really good I have been boarding in two with a ubw dreadstill list I have been messing with and they have been excellent. The fact that it doesn't require mana to activate makes it quite playable.
I did well with Bant Aggro this past weekend: 2nd in a 20-man Tourney.
Tourney Summary
Match 1: L 1-2 vs. Dredge (incredible bad draws)
Match 2: W 2-1 vs. Rouge Bant deck build (guy had Bant, but Ran Scepter-Chant MD)
Match 3: W 2-1 vs. GW Aggro (Intresting Cycle-lands, KoTRs and Terravores)
Match 4: L 1-2 vs. Imperial Painter (He had God hands again...)
Match 5: W 2-0 vs. 2 Land Belcher (scooped both times after FoW his Seething Song)
Top 8: W 2-0 vs. Rogue Bant (totally crushed him both games)
Top 4: W 2-0 vs. Zoo (destroyed Zoo, Stifle his early fetches was too much)
Top 2: Me and the Vengevival Guy split packs, was very late at this point, we were tired. He said he would have probably lost to me though, because he always has problems against me lol.
I did well with Bant Aggro this past weekend: 2nd in a 20-man Tourney.
Tourney Summary
Match 1: L 1-2 vs. Dredge (incredible bad draws)
Match 2: W 2-1 vs. Rouge Bant deck build (guy had Bant, but Ran Scepter-Chant MD)
Match 3: W 2-1 vs. GW Aggro (Intresting Cycle-lands, KoTRs and Terravores)
Match 4: L 1-2 vs. Imperial Painter (He had God hands again...)
Match 5: W 2-0 vs. 2 Land Belcher (scooped both times after FoW his Seething Song)
Top 8: W 2-0 vs. Rogue Bant (totally crushed him both games)
Top 4: W 2-0 vs. Zoo (destroyed Zoo, Stifle his early fetches was too much)
Top 2: Me and the Vengevival Guy split packs, was very late at this point, we were tired. He said he would have probably lost to me though, because he always has problems against me lol.
Ratchet Bomb is amazing; thinking about moving the volcanic Main deck and just running 61 cards to accommodate a slot for a 3rd Bomb.
Impressive result. Just curious though what matchups did you board Ratchet bomb against? I am assuming you boarded them in practically all of your matchups right?
Also, I am glad you find Ratchet bomb to be amazing.
Impressive result. Just curious though what matchups did you board Ratchet bomb against? I am assuming you boarded them in practically all of your matchups right?
Actually, come to think about it, yes. I put Bomb in after game against all of my opponents.
Dredge: Handles zombie tokens @0 charge counters or Discard outlets @1 counter Rogue Bant Handles goyfs/scepters @2 or war monks @ 3, since it requires no mana i can pop it before casting my own goyfs/monks GW aggro Kills KoTR, Terravore @ 3 (his only win cons) Imperial Painter Left a Bomb @ 1... he had to get rid of it before playing Grindstone lol Belcher kills all Goblin tokens @ 0 charge counters Zoo kills nacatls/loam lions/grim lavamancer @ 1 Charge Counter Vengevine Survival goyfs/survival/wild mongrel @ 2
Firespout is still better against the aggro matchup (unless it's Merfolk, hits Vial AND cursecatchers)... but any deck where you have to worry about enchantements/artifacts/massive Goyfs/12-20 free goblin/zombie Tokens the bomb is superior.
I'm really starting to like it over EE.
Being that Both Bomb and EE are vulnerable to both Needle/K-Grip/Stifle, they are really even in the comparison. To EE or Bomb for 0 it takes same amount of mana. Bomb is completely colorless so i can cast it on turn 2 with only 2 wasteland out. Only major downside is that you have to keep it in play longer and draw into it early enough.
How so? Does Counterbalance not check the cc as EE is being cast? e.g. If I cast an EE with a :symu::symw:, won't it's cc = 2, which is the same as Bomb? Or does it check EE being as :xmana:? Not trying to be sarcastic are anything, just curious.
Edit: Oh wait, I see. you can cast EE where as the " " can be like 12, but if all you spent was :symu::symw: it can kill nonland permanents with 2cc. If you mean something different, please explain. On the contrary if you are casting EE, you would have to go to like 6cc to make sure you get around Counterbalace. If this is infact the case, won't it be vulnerable to Daze, or say if the have Pridemage out, that would be a bad play, cause you have no mana to activate it... cause realistically once you get to the point where you can cast 6cc, you have already lost or won pretty much in Legacy.
How so? Does Counterbalance not check the cc as EE is being cast? e.g. If I cast an EE with a :symu::symw:, won't it's cc = 2, which is the same as Bomb? Or does it check EE being as :xmana:? Not trying to be sarcastic are anything, just curious.
Edit: Oh wait, I see. you can cast EE where as the " " can be like 12, but if all you spent was :symu::symw: it can kill nonland permanents with 2cc. If you mean something different, please explain. On the contrary if you are casting EE, you would have to go to like 6cc to make sure you get around Counterbalace. If this is infact the case, won't it be vulnerable to Daze, or say if the have Pridemage out, that would be a bad play, cause you have no mana to activate it... cause realistically once you get to the point where you can cast 6cc, you have already lost or won pretty much in Legacy.
correct me if i don't see it.
It makes the cc most flexable not only to Counterbalance but also to Spell Snare. You can easily get around Counterbalance without paying 6. You just need to know what to set x as. To make a long story short, being able to flex the casting cost of EE makes it trump Bomb IMO. The only thing that would make Bomb better is if you were trying to get rid of something more than 3(Jace, MS) and had a suitable clock to get 4+ turns in. And 4+ turns is a monsterous amount of time to waste expecially when your running an "Aggro" deck. If your worried about anything in that catagory then add a little bounce. Echoing Truth and Wipe Away come to my mind.
Idk, if you want to beat countertop engineered explosives or ratchet bomb is the wrong card to play in my opinion. I'd say the correct card to play instead is Krosan grip.
However, against any other deck I'd play ratchet bomb because it doesn't cost any mana to activate it while engineered explosives takes two mana. So blowing up non-land permanents with ratchet bomb and then drop a goyf, knight, or even a rhox on the same turn can be savage tempo right there.
Edit:
By the way, here is a new tempo bant list that I have been working on as of late. It's been decent against vengevival, merfolks, zoo and storm combo.
It makes the cc most flexable not only to Counterbalance but also to Spell Snare. You can easily get around Counterbalance without paying 6. You just need to know what to set x as. To make a long story short, being able to flex the casting cost of EE makes it trump Bomb IMO. The only thing that would make Bomb better is if you were trying to get rid of something more than 3(Jace, MS) and had a suitable clock to get 4+ turns in. And 4+ turns is a monsterous amount of time to waste expecially when your running an "Aggro" deck. If your worried about anything in that catagory then add a little bounce. Echoing Truth and Wipe Away come to my mind.
I see your point, but what if you need to get rid of counterbalance? Variable cost is great, but if the counter-top player knows you have EE, he very may well attempt to protect it by topping a 2 drop anyways. I agree with Kevin, K-grip i feel would be the better choice. Don't forget, I'm running Pridemages/Stifle MD. I think my Main Deck is strong vs. Countertop already though. I think it comes down to what deck you are using, which determines what is better, EE or R-Bomb.
@Kevinliu
I like that build you posted earlier, I may try to work in 2 R-Bombs Main, I feel like i can definitely drop 1 Daze, I run 4, I would rather have spell snare or R-bomb in hand late game... Plus it makes Goyf Stronger.
I like that build you posted earlier, I may try to work in 2 R-Bombs Main, I feel like i can definitely drop 1 Daze, I run 4, I would rather have spell snare or R-bomb in hand late game... Plus it makes Goyf Stronger.
Thanks, I did managed to beat Countertop the other day 2-0 with the list. I haven't really tested the list a whole lot but with 4 spell snares and 4 spell pierces between the MD and SB you should be able to take on both countertop and vengevine survival. I'd say your favored against both decks.
Thanks, I did managed to beat Countertop the other day 2-0 with the list. I haven't really tested the list a whole lot but with 4 spell snares and 4 spell pierces between the MD and SB you should be able to take on both countertop and vengevine survival. I'd say your favored against both decks.
IMO, Spell snare just counters all of the most powerful stuff in Legacy still, goyfs, painters, counterbalance, jittes, burning wish... Hell i used it to counter stoneforge mystic, stopping my opponent from going equip crazy lol
IMO, Spell snare just counters all of the most powerful stuff in Legacy still, goyfs, painters, counterbalance, jittes, burning wish... Hell i used it to counter stoneforge mystic, stopping my opponent from going equip crazy lol
Seriously though, one of the main reasons why I am running 3 dazes/4 spell snares though is because even though daze has potential to be fairly alright against vengevival on the play. But, however, on the draw not so much while spell snare is obviously very strong in either scenario.
I've been slowly putting together a Bant Control list, and I see that Dryad Arbor is in everyone's lists.
I'm just curious, but what about it is so great?
Edit: Never mind. Just read that section in the primer. Sweet
Glad to see more people pick up Bant. A good decklist to start from is from the primer. Although, I think any Bant deck with 4 spell snares can do quite well in the current environment with vengevival everywhere.
Great primer, I'm glad we finally have one, was waiting for it for a long time.
No problem, I like this deck, and I think it is strong enough to be very competitive for a long time as long as people keep using it and there are more innovations over time.
So I figure I should probably post my list up so I can get some pointers from all you experts out in MTGS-land. And, without further ado, my current Bant Control list:
Hopefully, it's looking pretty close to being competitive. I wasn't sure if I had too few lands or not, but admittedly I haven't done much testing with it yet.
I know if I'm playing Daze I should probably have all my duals be islands, so Savannah will come out as soon as I can trade it for a Tundra or something.
I am also considering putting in a couple Jace 2.0's I just got my hands on.
Spell Snare might be a good bet since there are definitely 1 or 2 survi-vine decks at the store I play at. The sideboard I'm going to use will pretty much just have a bunch of graveyard hate in it, since there are a few dredge decks. Any recommended sideboard cards in case I encounter a janky infect deck?
So I figure I should probably post my list up so I can get some pointers from all you experts out in MTGS-land. And, without further ado, my current Bant Control list:
Hopefully, it's looking pretty close to being competitive. I wasn't sure if I had too few lands or not, but admittedly I haven't done much testing with it yet.
I know if I'm playing Daze I should probably have all my duals be islands, so Savannah will come out as soon as I can trade it for a Tundra or something.
I am also considering putting in a couple Jace 2.0's I just got my hands on.
Spell Snare might be a good bet since there are definitely 1 or 2 survi-vine decks at the store I play at. The sideboard I'm going to use will pretty much just have a bunch of graveyard hate in it, since there are a few dredge decks. Any recommended sideboard cards in case I encounter a janky infect deck?
Thanks in advance for the feedback!
Your build looks pretty solid.
Although, how often are you able to pull off natural order with only 14 green creatures? I'd run at least 15 not including dryad arbor. I also think Knight of the reliquary is way too strong in any Bant deck so I'd run at least two.
Here is my build of Bant NO Countertop that I have been messing around a bit on mws last weekend. I managed to beat zoo 2-0, Merfolks 2-1, UG Vengevival 2-1, and GW Vengevival 2-0.
- And in the original primer post it says that the Dredge matchup is slightly favorable pre board. I just wonder how that's possible. Isn't countering their discard outlets the Bant player's only chance to win that matchup?
Well, it is highly dependent on what you are running, and what their plans are, but yes, FoW or Daze the primary discard outlet, you have EE or Ratchet Bomb set to 0 to kill massive amounts of Zombie tokens if you run them Main, you can counter Dread Return, Wasteland your Own Dryad Arbor after fetching it is tech to RFG bridges (always hilarious); Oh and Natural Order is natural hate on bridges. Heck, I have even used Qasali Pridemage to Kill my own Jitte! therefore removing bridges... All of your answers are at Instant speed so they can't sac any creatures in response... Iona isn't tough to play around, especially if you have Progenitus Main board... What color will they name? G? ok StP... or W to stop StP, but you can get Progenitus out and race them...
Hey guys, I got 2 questions concerning this deck archetype.
- What do you think of Lorescale Coatl? In matches that last longer than say 4-5 turns this card can be pretty awesome, easily outpowering Tarmogoyfs, especially with support from Brainstorm, Ponder and Jace 2.0.
- And in the original primer post it says that the Dredge matchup is slightly favorable pre board. I just wonder how that's possible. Isn't countering their discard outlets the Bant player's only chance to win that matchup?
Lorescale Coatl would probably go in the trygon predator/knight of the reliquary slots. I'd admit, Coatl can get pretty big as the game progress but Knight is already big whenever you play him and he can set your manabase up to cast Natural order if you don't have noble hierarch online. I personally think that is one big reason to play Knight especially against the thousand or so decks that play wasteland and/or removal for hierarchs.
Although, KOTR is a beating in any bant deck in general.
just played my new bant deck tonight, i like this deck alot!
was playing a buddy who is a tourney nut,
went 4w-1l against angel stax, the one loss was me keeping a poor hand followed by quickly getting armogeddoned.
went 2w-1l against dredge, wheel of sun and moon won me one game and turn 3 progenitus got me the other
went 0w-2l against dreadstill, second game took an hour and i was at 27 life to his 8 before he resolved a standstill then recur'd EE against me over and over to pwn my creatures till he dreadnoughted me to death.
overall good first night, very pleased with how the deck plays. im playing a controllish build with countertop, no swords and the NO package.
mirran crusader is a decent replacement for rhox war monk IMO, at least in this meta. the protection from green plus double strike helps loads against survival, zoo and elves. i wish there were more black decks that it would help against too though.
I took a small Hiatus from Bant the last couple of weeks, but i picked it up again this past weekend. I made some more tweaks and I am still pleased with the results, as I didn't have a single loss until Game 2 round 4. Possibly the only reason why I did not make top 2 was a major misplay.
Match 1: W2-L0 vs.Cheeriosnote: FoW beats Glimpse of Nature
Match 2: W2-L0 vs. Vedalken Cetrark and the Gorilla Shaman with Liquimetal Coating, can't think of name of deck, but turns everything into artifacts and blows them up
Match 3: W2-L0 vs. Pact Spanish Inquisitionnote:Stifle on Slithermuse's "leave" play ability was key
Match 4: W1-L2 vs. Vengevival + Devourer Combonote: This matchup was rough, as I did not have Board Wipers (dropped Firespout from the board)
Top 8: W2-L1 vs. Bant + Chant sticks (rogue build) Top 4: W1-L2 vs. Sneak and Shownote: Emrakul was too much coupled with misplays on my part.
Click on Spoiler to see list. Considering adding Karakas as my 61st card. Still fine-tuning a bit, but i like 4 Daze Main Decked.
mirran crusader is a decent replacement for rhox war monk IMO, at least in this meta. the protection from green plus double strike helps loads against survival, zoo and elves. i wish there were more black decks that it would help against too though.
As far as this goes, :symw::symw: could be hard to cast consistently. Lifelink saves your butt a lot of the time. Maybe Pro Excalibur or controller build could work... playtesting required.
Congrats on the finish Aaron and welcome back. Your list looks interesting. I also like the merfolk assassins in the board. I am curious though, how has that been against merfolks in testing? Care to explain a bit in detail about the tech?
I have one suggestion for your main though, I think you should run 4 stifles and possibly cut a rhox war monk. Stifles is still bonkers against just about anything including ooze survival.
Your list looks interesting. I also like the merfolk assassins in the board. I am curious though, how has that been against merfolks in testing? Care to explain a bit in detail about the tech?
I decided to gear my Board towards my weaker matchups. It is definately harder for me to beat Merfolk than say Goblins or Zoo (looking here at my mana base, the Island walk vs. Me is Brutal.) I use Firespout and Dueling Grounds (they are virtually interchangeable; enough to improve my odds against Zoo\Gobs), the problem is, that Cursecatcher takes care of Firespout so in that case Dueling Grounds is slightly better both on the offensive and defensive. Here in lies the problem: they still have islandwalk LOL... so a Coralhelm Commander leveled up w/ several lords out(esp. Lord of Atlantis) can still do serious damage to me, cause Goyfs can't block anyway, even without them having isandwalk. So I decided to devote 3 slots on the board to deal with Merfolk, probably Bants worst matchup IMO.
My Logic: If you can't beat them, join them via Merfolk Assassin. It's CMC is 1 less than Firespout or Dueling grounds and running 6 island duals, i can cast it fairly easy on turn 2 with counter protection. If i get that AND dueling grounds out vs. Merfolk they can have problems in which they will only be able to attack with 1 merfolk, or they hold on to their lords of atlantis for fear of the assassin or Exatled islandwalking assassin (lord give ALL OTHER merfolk islandwalk), thereby delaying them long enough for you to get exalted warmonks/goyfs/knights online, or get rid of your island duals via KoTR.
Well, ironically, lately i have not been paired vs. Merfolk, and the 1 time i did a few weeks ago, even though I had assassin in my opening hand, I faced Mana Screw, not getting :symu::symu: online until turn 5-ish.
Therefore, my anti-Merfolk tech is still questionable, and requires more testing.
I have one suggestion for your main though, I think you should run 4 stifles and possibly cut a rhox war monk. Stifles is still bonkers against just about anything including ooze survival.
That doesn't sound bad, but already i feel like there isn't enough creatures sometimes. I was thinking about going with 61 cards though.(anti-Mill tech; provided its not infinite mill lol) I find it dosen't affect your draws much so I'm thinking about cramming in a Stifle or a Karakas (MD anti-Iona/Emrakul tech)
Well, i don't think it would really replace rhox's, since rhox has lifelink on its own, its blue (fow pitch), it's harder to kill with jitte, and can't die to lightning bolt, firespout and so on... But, i also believe mirran could be cool potential ADDITION to the deck and not replacement, since bant already plays quality creature base.
It's really good I have been boarding in two with a ubw dreadstill list I have been messing with and they have been excellent. The fact that it doesn't require mana to activate makes it quite playable.
Tourney Summary
Match 1: L 1-2 vs. Dredge (incredible bad draws)
Match 2: W 2-1 vs. Rouge Bant deck build (guy had Bant, but Ran Scepter-Chant MD)
Match 3: W 2-1 vs. GW Aggro (Intresting Cycle-lands, KoTRs and Terravores)
Match 4: L 1-2 vs. Imperial Painter (He had God hands again...)
Match 5: W 2-0 vs. 2 Land Belcher (scooped both times after FoW his Seething Song)
Top 8: W 2-0 vs. Rogue Bant (totally crushed him both games)
Top 4: W 2-0 vs. Zoo (destroyed Zoo, Stifle his early fetches was too much)
Top 2: Me and the Vengevival Guy split packs, was very late at this point, we were tired. He said he would have probably lost to me though, because he always has problems against me lol.
3 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Firespout
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volcanic Island
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
Ratchet Bomb is amazing; thinking about moving the volcanic Main deck and just running 61 cards to accommodate a slot for a 3rd Bomb.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Impressive result. Just curious though what matchups did you board Ratchet bomb against? I am assuming you boarded them in practically all of your matchups right?
Also, I am glad you find Ratchet bomb to be amazing.
Actually, come to think about it, yes. I put Bomb in after game against all of my opponents.
Dredge: Handles zombie tokens @0 charge counters or Discard outlets @1 counter
Rogue Bant Handles goyfs/scepters @2 or war monks @ 3, since it requires no mana i can pop it before casting my own goyfs/monks
GW aggro Kills KoTR, Terravore @ 3 (his only win cons)
Imperial Painter Left a Bomb @ 1... he had to get rid of it before playing Grindstone lol
Belcher kills all Goblin tokens @ 0 charge counters
Zoo kills nacatls/loam lions/grim lavamancer @ 1 Charge Counter
Vengevine Survival goyfs/survival/wild mongrel @ 2
Firespout is still better against the aggro matchup (unless it's Merfolk, hits Vial AND cursecatchers)... but any deck where you have to worry about enchantements/artifacts/massive Goyfs/12-20 free goblin/zombie Tokens the bomb is superior.
I'm really starting to like it over EE.
Being that Both Bomb and EE are vulnerable to both Needle/K-Grip/Stifle, they are really even in the comparison. To EE or Bomb for 0 it takes same amount of mana. Bomb is completely colorless so i can cast it on turn 2 with only 2 wasteland out. Only major downside is that you have to keep it in play longer and draw into it early enough.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
It gets around Counterbalance.
sinx sinx + cosx cosx = 1
Sin2x= 2 sinx cosx
Cos2x= cosx cosx - sinx sinx
Cos(x+y)= cosx cosy - sinx siny
Sin(x+y)= sinx cosy + siny cosx
Know your Math do your math!
Trade thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8137863#post8137863
How so? Does Counterbalance not check the cc as EE is being cast? e.g. If I cast an EE with a :symu::symw:, won't it's cc = 2, which is the same as Bomb? Or does it check EE being as :xmana:? Not trying to be sarcastic are anything, just curious.
Edit: Oh wait, I see. you can cast EE where as the " " can be like 12, but if all you spent was :symu::symw: it can kill nonland permanents with 2cc. If you mean something different, please explain. On the contrary if you are casting EE, you would have to go to like 6cc to make sure you get around Counterbalace. If this is infact the case, won't it be vulnerable to Daze, or say if the have Pridemage out, that would be a bad play, cause you have no mana to activate it... cause realistically once you get to the point where you can cast 6cc, you have already lost or won pretty much in Legacy.
correct me if i don't see it.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
It makes the cc most flexable not only to Counterbalance but also to Spell Snare. You can easily get around Counterbalance without paying 6. You just need to know what to set x as. To make a long story short, being able to flex the casting cost of EE makes it trump Bomb IMO. The only thing that would make Bomb better is if you were trying to get rid of something more than 3(Jace, MS) and had a suitable clock to get 4+ turns in. And 4+ turns is a monsterous amount of time to waste expecially when your running an "Aggro" deck. If your worried about anything in that catagory then add a little bounce. Echoing Truth and Wipe Away come to my mind.
sinx sinx + cosx cosx = 1
Sin2x= 2 sinx cosx
Cos2x= cosx cosx - sinx sinx
Cos(x+y)= cosx cosy - sinx siny
Sin(x+y)= sinx cosy + siny cosx
Know your Math do your math!
Trade thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8137863#post8137863
However, against any other deck I'd play ratchet bomb because it doesn't cost any mana to activate it while engineered explosives takes two mana. So blowing up non-land permanents with ratchet bomb and then drop a goyf, knight, or even a rhox on the same turn can be savage tempo right there.
Edit:
By the way, here is a new tempo bant list that I have been working on as of late. It's been decent against vengevival, merfolks, zoo and storm combo.
2 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Rhox War Monk
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
2 Ponder
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle
1 Hibernation
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Submerge
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
I see your point, but what if you need to get rid of counterbalance? Variable cost is great, but if the counter-top player knows you have EE, he very may well attempt to protect it by topping a 2 drop anyways. I agree with Kevin, K-grip i feel would be the better choice. Don't forget, I'm running Pridemages/Stifle MD. I think my Main Deck is strong vs. Countertop already though. I think it comes down to what deck you are using, which determines what is better, EE or R-Bomb.
@Kevinliu
I like that build you posted earlier, I may try to work in 2 R-Bombs Main, I feel like i can definitely drop 1 Daze, I run 4, I would rather have spell snare or R-bomb in hand late game... Plus it makes Goyf Stronger.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Thanks, I did managed to beat Countertop the other day 2-0 with the list. I haven't really tested the list a whole lot but with 4 spell snares and 4 spell pierces between the MD and SB you should be able to take on both countertop and vengevine survival. I'd say your favored against both decks.
IMO, Spell snare just counters all of the most powerful stuff in Legacy still, goyfs, painters, counterbalance, jittes, burning wish... Hell i used it to counter stoneforge mystic, stopping my opponent from going equip crazy lol
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
You forgot to mention survival of the fittest.
Seriously though, one of the main reasons why I am running 3 dazes/4 spell snares though is because even though daze has potential to be fairly alright against vengevival on the play. But, however, on the draw not so much while spell snare is obviously very strong in either scenario.
I'm just curious, but what about it is so great?
Edit: Never mind. Just read that section in the primer. Sweet
Yeah, running him is highly dependent if you are running Natural Order + Progenitus or not. If you choose to not use that combo, drop the Dryad.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Glad to see more people pick up Bant. A good decklist to start from is from the primer. Although, I think any Bant deck with 4 spell snares can do quite well in the current environment with vengevival everywhere.
No problem, I like this deck, and I think it is strong enough to be very competitive for a long time as long as people keep using it and there are more innovations over time.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator
Spells - 16
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
NO Package - 5
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Dryad Arbor
Lands - 18
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Forest
Hopefully, it's looking pretty close to being competitive. I wasn't sure if I had too few lands or not, but admittedly I haven't done much testing with it yet.
I know if I'm playing Daze I should probably have all my duals be islands, so Savannah will come out as soon as I can trade it for a Tundra or something.
I am also considering putting in a couple Jace 2.0's I just got my hands on.
Spell Snare might be a good bet since there are definitely 1 or 2 survi-vine decks at the store I play at. The sideboard I'm going to use will pretty much just have a bunch of graveyard hate in it, since there are a few dredge decks. Any recommended sideboard cards in case I encounter a janky infect deck?
Thanks in advance for the feedback!
Your build looks pretty solid.
Although, how often are you able to pull off natural order with only 14 green creatures? I'd run at least 15 not including dryad arbor. I also think Knight of the reliquary is way too strong in any Bant deck so I'd run at least two.
Here is my build of Bant NO Countertop that I have been messing around a bit on mws last weekend. I managed to beat zoo 2-0, Merfolks 2-1, UG Vengevival 2-1, and GW Vengevival 2-0.
2 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Tundra
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Spell Snare
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Pithing Needle
2 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Stoneforge Mystic
Well, it is highly dependent on what you are running, and what their plans are, but yes, FoW or Daze the primary discard outlet, you have EE or Ratchet Bomb set to 0 to kill massive amounts of Zombie tokens if you run them Main, you can counter Dread Return, Wasteland your Own Dryad Arbor after fetching it is tech to RFG bridges (always hilarious); Oh and Natural Order is natural hate on bridges. Heck, I have even used Qasali Pridemage to Kill my own Jitte! therefore removing bridges... All of your answers are at Instant speed so they can't sac any creatures in response... Iona isn't tough to play around, especially if you have Progenitus Main board... What color will they name? G? ok StP... or W to stop StP, but you can get Progenitus out and race them...
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Lorescale Coatl would probably go in the trygon predator/knight of the reliquary slots. I'd admit, Coatl can get pretty big as the game progress but Knight is already big whenever you play him and he can set your manabase up to cast Natural order if you don't have noble hierarch online. I personally think that is one big reason to play Knight especially against the thousand or so decks that play wasteland and/or removal for hierarchs.
Although, KOTR is a beating in any bant deck in general.
was playing a buddy who is a tourney nut,
went 4w-1l against angel stax, the one loss was me keeping a poor hand followed by quickly getting armogeddoned.
went 2w-1l against dredge, wheel of sun and moon won me one game and turn 3 progenitus got me the other
went 0w-2l against dreadstill, second game took an hour and i was at 27 life to his 8 before he resolved a standstill then recur'd EE against me over and over to pwn my creatures till he dreadnoughted me to death.
overall good first night, very pleased with how the deck plays. im playing a controllish build with countertop, no swords and the NO package.
The misplay occurred in Top 4 vs. Show and Sneak, Game 3, when I had kept a hand with 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Daze and 1 Tarmogoyf. I should have mulliganed into Force of Will and a Pithing Needle, although, looking back he had a FoW, Sneak Attack, and Show and Tell. What happened was: I played a Goyf (got greedy), didn't leave a open for Spell Snare. So I dazed his Sneak Attack but he RFGed a Simian Spirit Guide to pay for the on Daze... That was pretty much GG as i didn't have an answer for a Turn 2 Sneak Attacked Emrakul, The Aeons Torn.
Tourney Summary
Overall: 3-1
Match 1: W2-L0 vs.Cheerios note: FoW beats Glimpse of Nature
Match 2: W2-L0 vs. Vedalken Cetrark and the Gorilla Shaman with Liquimetal Coating, can't think of name of deck, but turns everything into artifacts and blows them up
Match 3: W2-L0 vs. Pact Spanish Inquisition note:Stifle on Slithermuse's "leave" play ability was key
Match 4: W1-L2 vs. Vengevival + Devourer Combo note: This matchup was rough, as I did not have Board Wipers (dropped Firespout from the board)
Top 8: W2-L1 vs. Bant + Chant sticks (rogue build)
Top 4: W1-L2 vs. Sneak and Show note: Emrakul was too much coupled with misplays on my part.
Click on Spoiler to see list. Considering adding Karakas as my 61st card. Still fine-tuning a bit, but i like 4 Daze Main Decked.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Knight of the Reliquary
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
2 Ponder
Land
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Dueling Grounds
3 Spell Pierce
3 Pithing Needle
3 Merfolk Assassin
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tormod's Crypt
As far as this goes, :symw::symw: could be hard to cast consistently. Lifelink saves your butt a lot of the time. Maybe Pro Excalibur or controller build could work... playtesting required.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
I have one suggestion for your main though, I think you should run 4 stifles and possibly cut a rhox war monk. Stifles is still bonkers against just about anything including ooze survival.
Thanks
I decided to gear my Board towards my weaker matchups. It is definately harder for me to beat Merfolk than say Goblins or Zoo (looking here at my mana base, the Island walk vs. Me is Brutal.) I use Firespout and Dueling Grounds (they are virtually interchangeable; enough to improve my odds against Zoo\Gobs), the problem is, that Cursecatcher takes care of Firespout so in that case Dueling Grounds is slightly better both on the offensive and defensive. Here in lies the problem: they still have islandwalk LOL... so a Coralhelm Commander leveled up w/ several lords out(esp. Lord of Atlantis) can still do serious damage to me, cause Goyfs can't block anyway, even without them having isandwalk. So I decided to devote 3 slots on the board to deal with Merfolk, probably Bants worst matchup IMO.
My Logic: If you can't beat them, join them via Merfolk Assassin. It's CMC is 1 less than Firespout or Dueling grounds and running 6 island duals, i can cast it fairly easy on turn 2 with counter protection. If i get that AND dueling grounds out vs. Merfolk they can have problems in which they will only be able to attack with 1 merfolk, or they hold on to their lords of atlantis for fear of the assassin or Exatled islandwalking assassin (lord give ALL OTHER merfolk islandwalk), thereby delaying them long enough for you to get exalted warmonks/goyfs/knights online, or get rid of your island duals via KoTR.
Well, ironically, lately i have not been paired vs. Merfolk, and the 1 time i did a few weeks ago, even though I had assassin in my opening hand, I faced Mana Screw, not getting :symu::symu: online until turn 5-ish.
Therefore, my anti-Merfolk tech is still questionable, and requires more testing.
That doesn't sound bad, but already i feel like there isn't enough creatures sometimes. I was thinking about going with 61 cards though.(anti-Mill tech; provided its not infinite mill lol) I find it dosen't affect your draws much so I'm thinking about cramming in a Stifle or a Karakas (MD anti-Iona/Emrakul tech)
That's true, but I think running the Pro Excalibur package with on-ofs of Rafiq of the Many, Progenitus and Natural Order is more versatile.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur