[Deck] Bant

  • #1
    Primer written by aaronc123.

    PRIMER: BANT

    Updated: 10/13/10


    I. INTRODUCTION

    The word BANT refers to the colors: :symw:, :symg:, :symu:. Not only are these considered three of the stronger colors in Legacy, but the printing of the Alara block puts these colors over the top. Bant is an Aggro-Control deck based upon these colors.They give you access to powerful/efficient creatures (:symg:), powerful control/counter (:symu:), and some of the most efficient removal/balancing options (:symw:), as well as the multicolored cards to compliment through the color wheel. Playing Bant, allows you to have strong match-ups against almost any kind of deck. It has enough counter/protection to delay Combo decks enough to potentially win; It has enough powerful creatures to out-aggro Aggro decks; Finally, it has enough weapons to out-last and defeat Control decks. The great thing about the colors, is that: one could potentially build a sideboard that can beat any deck in their local meta, and one can change the parts of the deck to make it more conrol than aggro; or more aggro than control, depending on what style of player you are. Other than Combo players, you can almost taylor BANT to your favorite style of play.

    Here is a summary of the good and bad things of playing BANT.

    PROS
    • great match-ups against many decks
    • MD hate on artifacts/enchantments leaving the bant player flexibility
    • Exalted
    • Counter/Cantrips/Removal
    • almost every play is a strong play
    CONS
    • Not a deck to build for the Budget-Minded, expensive to make if cards aren't owned already.
    • Three-Color land base, proves difficult to deal with Wasteland/decks built to eliminate opponents resources
    • Difficult to run Utility Lands because of the land base and number of lands required to be efficient.

    II. DECK CONSTRUCTION

    I will break this section down into many parts for Organizational purposes as well as for purposes to distinguish between it's major Sub-archetypes.

    A. "THE CORE"
    This is by General Consensus, the very core of every Bant deck, being if it is control or not. Probably the set of cards I have seen as the "Core" in every competative build of this deck that I have ever seen.


    Bant CoreMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Rhox War Monk

    Instants
    4 Daze
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Force Of Will
    4 Brainstorm

    NO Progenitus Package
    1 Dryad Arbor
    3 Natural Order
    1 Progenitus



    Card Choices
    Noble Hierarch - Your Early Game Mana Fixer/NO Target/grants exalted
    Tarmogoyf - Um... Yeah.
    Rhox War Monk - almost broken, and as dreaded if not more so than 'goyf/chunked to FoW

    Swords to Plowshares - Best 1-drop Removal in Legacy
    Brainstorm Staple Legacy Cantrip
    Force of Will Staple Counterspell, still one of the best cards ever.
    Daze - Secondary free counterspell, as well as Anti-Fow

    About the NO > Progenitus Combo Package
    Besides being an obvious Win Con, Many players would say it's not Bant without it. A turn 3 Progenitus is very strong. Although technically you don't need thepackage to use Bant, it is strong. The Utility of Natural Order almost makes it too Strong to not include. Prog is the Obvious target, but other nasty green creatures can come in from the board, or goyf can be fetched as a late game trick if all one has is a hierarch out for example. These are the main reasons why I would include this package in the "Core" of the deck. Dryad Arbor, The last piece of the mini-combo, is an uncounterable NO target/Fetchable by a fetchland, and could serve as a last resort Exalted Beater.

    B. AGGRO VARIANTS

    Added to the "Core" Cards, The following cards differentiate the aggro from the control Heavy versions. There are Two Aggro Variants that are very popular right now:

    1. Bant aggro: The original Aggro deck for Bant
    2. Pro Excalibur Utilizes Equipment to compliment the very powerful Creatures

    Variant 1: Bant Aggro/Straight Bant Aggro

    Straight AggroMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures
    3 Qasali Pridemages
    2 Vendilion Clique
    2 Kitchen Finks

    Additional Cantrips
    3 Ponder



    Card Choices
    Qasali Pridemage - MD hate against enchants/artifacts/provides more exalted to your nasty core creatures.
    Vendilion Clique - Pseudo-Discard as well as evasive beater
    Kitchen Finks - another dreaded creature that has built-in recursion/life-gain.
    Ponder - usually added as an additional Cantrip in the straight aggro Build

    Variant 2: Pro Excalibur


    The difference here is dropping the additional Cantrips and a couple of weaker creatures (normally Kitchen Finks) for the "Equipment Package".

    Excalibur PackageMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures
    3 Qasali Pridemages
    2 Vendilion Clique

    Equipment Package
    2 Stoneforge Mystic
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow



    Card Choices
    Qasali Pridemage - MD hate against enchants/artifacts/provides more exalted to your nasty core creatures.
    Vendilion Clique - Pseudo-Discard as well as evasive beater

    The Equipment Package
    Stoneforge Mystic - Allows one to fetch the proper equip needed at the time/cast without being countered
    Umezawa's Jitte - Very strong, possibly strongest equip ever printed
    Sword of Fire and Ice - Very good against Weenie/goblins/etc.
    Sword of Light and Shadow - Protection if opponent has lots of removal

    C. CONTROL VARIANTS
    Added to the "Core" Cards, The following cards differentiate the Control from the Aggro Heavy versions. There is one popular control variant right now:

    1. BANT CONTROL


    The creature selection is a bit different here, and most people reduce the number of Rhox War Monk to 0-3 to fit the CounterTop Package into the deck as well as other control cards. Though it has the counter-top package in it, it is not truly a Countertop deck. For it has the means to play as one, it, unlike counter-top decks, is not based on countertop as the core of the deck.

    Control PackageMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures
    1 Trygon Predator

    Planeswalkers
    3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

    Counter Top Package
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Counterbalance



    Card Choices
    Trygon Predator - an enchant/artifact killer with staying power as well as evasive beater
    Jace The Mind Sculptor - permanent cantrip/creature control/as well as alternate win con

    CounterTop Package
    Utilizes Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance to achieve an all-in-one, Cantriping, counterspell engine. Some decks are based this as the core.

    D. LAND SELECTION


    Like the many variants of the builds for Bant, Deciding on which Dual/Fetches to use and the number of which to use, depends highly on the variant you decide to play. I have seen anywhere from 17 Lands (Aggro Heavy) to 22 Lands (Control Heavy). What I will do here is construct basically the Core of Lands Needed at minimum. The fillers will be Basic Lands. Because one of the inherent weaknesses of the deck is that it's 3 colors, anything beyond the core should be additional basic lands, probably basic Forest or Islands should be added. One can add more duals/fetches for the control build I suppose, but then it becomes vulnerable to Wasteland and what have you. Note: If your are using Daze, The duals should be Island based.

    This is what you should have, at the very minimum.
    LandMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    4 Tropical Island
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Flooded Strand
    2 Tundra
    1 Plains
    1 Island
    2 Forest



    E. Side Board Selection

    Like the land, Choosing the proper Side Board for your Meta and/or weak match ups is as important as the deck construction itself. Here I will Cover Most but not all card selections as good side board choices. This will cover both the Aggro, and the control Variants.

    Card Choices
    Sword of Body and Mind
    with the growing popularity of Madness Survival, as well as extra pro-blue/green needs grow, this is great for SB, it is even a personal preference of mine to run this over the light and shadow sword MD in Pro Excalibur, dropping the other sword to the board. Can be used against Merfolk with great success as well.

    Dueling Grounds
    Being that your creatures are Exalted, and theirs not in most cases, this will give the edge to both attacking and defending, allowing one to outrace very potent decks such as Zoo, Gobs, 'folk.

    Path to Exile
    for the aggro heavy Meta. Having 6-7 StP effects will mean the differences between defeat and failure in most mtach-ups

    Krosan Grip
    Split second removal needed to face off against CouterTop, or other heavy counter/control decks

    Propaganda / Ghostly Prison
    Some more options against the Aggro-Heavy Meta, some people prefer this to Dueling Grounds

    Silence / Orim's Chant
    The popularity of these on the side boards for Bant have waned since the banning of Mystical Tutor. It is still a viable option to stop combo however.

    Meddling Mage
    Good as a SB option from the board of the aggro OR control variants

    Gaddock Teeg / Ethersworn Canonist
    again, less popular today, because of combo being less effecient. Definately works against other decks though.

    Llawan, Cephalid Empress
    Great against Merfolk, may have too much of a narrow scope for your local meta however.

    Fire Spout
    If red is splashed, this becomes a powerful sweeper against, Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo

    Empyrial Archangel
    An additional NO target from the board that can shore up the deck in a heavy aggro environment.

    Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus
    Your standard Legacy Graveyard Hate. If played at the proper times, can shut down really explosive decks.

    Pithing Needle
    Colorless/cheap answers to the like of Survival of the Fittest, Goblin Charbelcher, etc.

    Engineered Explosives
    Cheap/colorless removal not requiring a color splash

    Hydroblast / Blue Elemental Blast
    Some very good Anti-Red cards as well as additional counters

    Spell Pierce
    Has become in it's own right, an additional cheap counterspell, or anti-Force of Will addition to many Legacy Decks

    Qasali Pridemage / Trygon Predator / Harmonic Sliver
    Additional cretures placed on the board to help surprise opponent/ more NO Targets if need be.


    F. ALTERNATE CARD SELECTIONS


    Here are some alternate cards or cards that are good in their own right, but they might be difficult to fit MD or SB. However, some of these cards pop up on lists from time to time.

    Wheel of Sun and Moon
    Great against painter decks, but isn't good enough to run 4 of. Tutor package almost needed.

    Knight of the Reliquary
    Very formidable creature, but there isn't enough land, nor room for utility lands... Therefore, is almost useless

    Rafiq of the Many
    Legendary, therefore not a good option to run... almost a win-more card. Can be NO'ed.

    Submerge
    good against Zoo

    Runed Halo
    Good against Combo mainly but has other uses. Same problem as Wheel. :symw::symw: cc may be too harsh

    Elspeth, Knight Errant
    possible alternate win con in the Bant control version

    Mother of Runes
    great card to use with war monks and goyfs. possible alternate to Cliques/Finks.

    Spell Snare
    Good alternate to Daze

    Chalice of the Void
    Can be used with some success in the Control Variant

    Counterspell
    slower than all the other good Legacy counters, but wouldn't be bad as an alternate in the control variant


    III. GAMEPLAY


    Whatever version one uses, it is pretty straight-forward. You play many efficient creatures and attack. At it's heart, it's an Aggro deck. However, it has enough support/disrutpion to outlast some very serious decks. For the versions that don't run any Planeswalkers, Progenitus is your other win condition. It is possible to have it on the board by turn 3 with this deck. The NO > Progenitus is by no means a combo that you should try mulligan into unless the situation calls for it. Your opponent is placed on a 2-turn clock. Some faint-hearted opponents will concede to the mere resolving of Natural Order. Also, remember, Progenitus is not your only NO Target. Imagine if you will, someone having a Meekstone out. If you have, especially 2 NO in your hand, don't be afraid to grab a Qasali Pridemage / Trygon Predator / Harmonic Sliver. For in this instance, Progenitus is useless until that artifact is Destroyed.

    The most Difficult part of either version of Bant is deciding what/when to use Natural Order for. It is very Utility. Also, This deck taps out early to play threats, it uses FoW and Daze for protection as well as stopping your opponents early plays.

    As for opening Hands, in most cases you want to keep a hand if:

    2 lands + 1 Hierarch
    2 lands
    1 land + 1 Hierarch
    1 Land + 2 Hierarch

    Ideal would be to keep Hands with a couple of creatures, couple of counters a couple lands and/or 1 cantrip and/or 1 StP.

    Band Hands:
    2 NOs 1 Progenitus 1 Plains rest creatures
    No lands (obvious)

    This deck Curves out at about 4, so as long as you have 2 Mana sources pretty quickly, you should be ok.


    IV. MATCHUPS

    I will briefly cover match-ups from my experience with this deck. As i play against other decks and gain experiences with them I will post my findings. Please PM me about information regarding other match-ups or if you have different opinions on the match-up information below and I will update the Primer.

    note: I don't use control version, if you play control version please PM me what you consider bad/good matchups according to the following scale, and I will update the Primer.

    KEY

    Favorable - 75%+ chances of winning against
    Slightly Favorable - 56%-74% Chance of winning
    Even Match - 45% - 55% Chance of winning
    Slightly Unfavorable - 26%-44% Chance of Winning
    Unfavorable - 25% and below chance of winning

    note: this isn't actually by the numbers and is opinionated through my experiences. Odds of matchups being good or bad may vary depending on which version of bant you are running. If you are using Bant aggro, this is pretty close to the odds. I'm not sure about the Control versions. The following Results are from Pro Excalibur Specifically. Percentages are just to give one an idea of how difficult the match-ups are

    Bant Aggro/Pro Excalibur Matches

    Zoo - slightly unfavorable
    -postboard: Even

    Merfolk - slightly unfavorable
    -postboard: - slightly favorable

    Dredge - slightly favorable
    -postboard: favorable

    Survival Madness/Vengevine Survival - slightly unfavorable
    postboard: slightly Favorable

    Pox - unfavorable
    postboard: slightly unfavorable / even

    Bant Control Match-Ups
    ?? TBD ??



    Any suggestions additional info is welcome. Please PM and I will update the primer as soon as possible.

    My record with Pro Excalibur

    CREDITS

    i credit Federico Gazzotti on Deckcheck, for I play that list with minor tweaks.

    I reference many lists from the Bant Deckcheck lists under "Control" and "Aggro" in the Legacy Section.

    I credit the other "Proven threads" to inspire the design of this Primer.
    Last edited by Korsakovia: 10/15/2010 10:41:37 AM
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  • #2
    I am suspicious of this so-called Bant aggro as proven. Currently (summer/fall of 2010), the best "Bant" deck that is winning, runs both Bant and Survival. You can look up "Bant Survival" in deckcheck, some decent results. Some versions even runs Vengevine. The Counterbalance version has almost disappeared from the Top 8 scenes. Unless you group all of them together, or you want to keep Survival version separate from the "traditional" Bant.
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  • #3
    Quote from twndomn
    I am suspicious of this so-called Bant aggro as proven. Currently (summer/fall of 2010), the best "Bant" deck that is winning, runs both Bant and Survival. You can look up "Bant Survival" in deckcheck, some decent results. Some versions even runs Vengevine. The Counterbalance version has almost disappeared from the Top 8 scenes. Unless you group all of them together, or you want to keep Survival version separate from the "traditional" Bant.


    Bant 'Aggro' and Control are lumped together for the purpose of this thread. Even without what deckcheck calls 'Aggro', 'Control' on it's on passed the 3.75% mark required for Proven.

    I disagree that the Counterbalance version has disappeared. Rather, it's made numerous Top 8 appearances(hence why it's in Proven). Bant Survival did not make as impressive a showing(hence its absence from Proven).
    Stop by, or leave me a message on IM if you need something or want to chat.

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  • #4
    so is bant aggro still good?? i dont see anyone posting in here... and in case it doesnt run the survival package or the countertop package, would it still be viable?
  • #5
    so is bant aggro still good?? i dont see anyone posting in here... and in case it doesnt run the survival package or the countertop package, would it still be viable?


    It's good as of the last two months, otherwise it wouldn't be in Proven.

    My guess on why there's a lack of activity is a) it's a fairly refined list, so there isn't much to discuss, b) no one here really plays it, so there's few people to discuss it.
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  • #6
    It's actually the opposite. The reason why there's so much lack of activity isn't because the deck is fairly refined, it's because the deck has so many variants. Everyone wants to make subtle changes to Bant and create a new deck flavor. Think of Bant Aggro like vanilla ice cream with no topings.

    Lack of activity is due to the following:
    1)Since the matchup differences are quite subtle between it's variants, it make it hard to pinpoint. Insofar that it actually requires a logic tree to realize you're playing this deck. -.-
    2) Natural Order has become less popular due to speed increase of legacy likely-hood of getting and increase in power of other cards. Now, Progentius is no longer unarguably the best fatty.
    3)Tons of alternative decks are available with the changing of very few cards. Not only is it just countertop/survival, now Enter New Horizons, Excalibur, UWg Tempo, etc.
    4) These alternative variants are a bit more specialized to offer a subtle but important play difference, catering to people who've invested into the card pools choices.
    5) Merfolk is more popular than ever...
    Last edited by luckme10: 9/24/2010 5:07:40 PM
  • #9
    It's actually pretty simple:

    There are only 2 refined Countertop decks that don't need much to discuss (these are both 'Proven'):

    - Countertop Progenitus (first list on this page)

    - 4C Countertop (Martell's list).

    The Countertop Progenitus (Bant Control) version has made numberous of top 8 appearances and is still prefered by some of the best Countertop players among us, even after having played/tested the 4C Countertop version. Both are very strong decks. Countertop Progenitus plays Stoneforge Mystic and Jitte SB to fight aggro, while 4C Countertop plays Firespout (so it's basically the aggro route vs control route). 4C Countertop is more control orientated, while Countertop Progenitus is more aggro orientated.

    Less people play Natural Order because of the popularity of Jace. Most want to play Jace as their main win condition and why not? He fits perfectly in the Supreme Blue Countertop shell, thus Natural Order sees less play...although all of this doesn't have anything to do with the true power of NO in Countertop.

    Bant Aggro (2nd list on this page) is a whole different animal; it isn't as refined as Countertop. It has many variations and UGW Tempo is one solid example of it (= Bant Aggro with Wasteland, Noble Hierarch, Daze).
    UGW Countertop
  • #10
    I run Path to Exile over swords simply because it can slow you down one whole turn. Am I the only one or are there others?
  • #11
    I rather just play swords to plowshares in the main and board in Path to exile if you need to. You have progenitus to swing for infinite anyway.

    I found quite a few Bant decks on deckcheck for reference here is the link:
    http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Bant+Control&format=Legacy
    2012: Top 64 at SCG Standard Portland Open with UW Miracle Control.
    2013: Top 32 at SCG Standard Tacoma Open with Esper Control.
    2014: Top 32 at SCG Legacy Tacoma Open with UWR Delver.
  • #12
    Quote from Gobblinz
    I run Path to Exile over swords simply because it can slow you down one whole turn. Am I the only one or are there others?


    A lot of people run 2 and 2... But I run 4 StP because you can StP your own goyf and gain 5-7 life to buy an extra turn.


    I'm running the Pro-Excalibur Version:

    aaronc123's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures
    2 Stoneforge Mystic
    1 Progenitus
    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 Vendilion Clique
    4 Noble Hierarch
    3 Qasali Pridemage
    4 Rhox War Monk
    1 Dryad Arbor

    Instant
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Brainstorm

    Sorcery
    3 Natural Order

    Artifacts
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    Land
    4 Tropical Island
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Tundra
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Plains
    1 Island
    1 Forest
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Savannah



    I went 3-1 Last Friday, losing in top 4 to Merfolk.

    Edit: Match up breakdown

    Match 1, L 1-2 vs Vengvine Survival
    Match 2, W 2-0 vs Merfolk
    Match 3, W 2-0 vs Dredge
    Match 4, W 2-1 vs Zoo

    Top 8: W 2-0 vs. Goblins
    Top 4: L 1-2 vs Merfolk

    I like this deck, i was never down and out the few games i lost.

    End Edit

    VS. Merfolk I am 1-1, Merfolk for some reason tends to eat my Lunch, it was the Island Walk and wasteland. A goblin player scooped to my Jitte on a war monk. I barely lost to Vengevine Survival. Crushed Zoo and barely beat the other Merfolk deck stabalizing at just 3 life one game.

    Side Note:
    Natural Order > Harmonic sliver can get you out of a sticky situation

    I am Considering the following changes on October 1st (when SoM is legal):

    Main Deck
    -1 Sword of Light and Shadow
    +1 Sword of Body and Mind I think this card will enourmously tip the balances if it resolves against Merfolk, Vengevine Survival or Zoo. The mill 10 cards might help Vengevine Survival, but the Wolf Tokens Hurt.

    Side Board:
    -2 Engineered Explosives - don't want to kill my own win cons
    -3 Pithing Needle - Don't really use, helps against Survival, but can be played around
    -1 Krosan Grip - I can lose a K-grip, not very often i need split second, but nice to have on the board

    +3 Dueling Grounds - Think that this card can flat out halt Merfolk/Vengevine Survival/Goblins/Zoo in a pinch. One of their guys vs. one of my exalted Goyfs/War Monks with a sword or Jitte is just bonkers.
    +2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor - This is highly experimental, but could come from nowhere and out tech the opponent.
    +1 Sword of Light and Shadow - Moved from Main to side. No one in Meta uses Lots of StP or MBA, so this is logical to be put on the board being that U and/or G are stronger colors.

    The end result, This will be my new Board:
    aaronc123's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Side
    3 Dueling Grounds
    3 Gaddock Teeg
    2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow
    2 Krosan Grip
    1 Harmonic Sliver
    3 Tormod's Crypt



    Any suggestions/opinions welcome.
    Last edited by aaronc123: 9/27/2010 10:53:41 AM


    Thank you mchief111, great sig

    Current Decks:


    Lvl 37 Planeswalker
    Current:

    Legacy:
    :symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | blue mana Spiral Tide | 0 mana MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | red mana Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | green mana Elf Combo
    Vintage:
    :symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
    Modern:
    :symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
    Standard:
    Wip
    EDH:
    :symb::symu::symw: Zur
  • #13
    IMO, Ghostly Prison > Dueling Grounds
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  • #14
    Quote from malcolmbw
    IMO, Ghostly Prison > Dueling Grounds


    Well, I like them both along with Propaganda, but they are all the same cost and I'm not running any mana denial. so, if it gets to a point in the game, they can tap 4 mana and attack with 2 creatures...

    With Goblins for instance you would have to deal with a 3/2 Piledriver AND a 2/2 Warchief in this situation instead of just a 1/2 Piledriver or 2/2 warchief... if I have a Monk out, I'm taking the 3 cause of the Pro Blue

    Same for Merfolk, If they all have Island walk, they can be hitting me for 5-7 damage if they have enough open, with grounds, if it resolves, there may only be a 2/2 or a 4/4 to deal with.

    IMHO, the prison can be played around a lot easier.


    Thank you mchief111, great sig

    Current Decks:


    Lvl 37 Planeswalker
    Current:

    Legacy:
    :symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | blue mana Spiral Tide | 0 mana MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | red mana Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | green mana Elf Combo
    Vintage:
    :symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
    Modern:
    :symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
    Standard:
    Wip
    EDH:
    :symb::symu::symw: Zur
  • #16
    I've actually tested dueling grounds in Countertop progenitus to shore up the merfolk matchup and it tends to work out pretty well. I don't remember wishing the dueling grounds was something else either. Besides, if the merfolk player can level up coralhelm commander to four in one turn then I am sure they can easily pay mana for ghostly prison/propoganda regardless.

    Sure, dueling grounds cost another color to cast but you do have noble hierarchs and the relevant fetchlands.
    2012: Top 64 at SCG Standard Portland Open with UW Miracle Control.
    2013: Top 32 at SCG Standard Tacoma Open with Esper Control.
    2014: Top 32 at SCG Legacy Tacoma Open with UWR Delver.
  • #17
    Went 4-0 Matches last FNM, but lost in top 8 to Zoo.

    Match 1: 2-0 vs. Dredge
    Match 2: 2-0 vs. Vengevine Survival
    Match 3: 2-1 vs. Imperial Painter
    Match 4: 2-1 vs. Pox

    Top 8: 0-2 vs Zoo

    Notes:
    Dueling Grounds allowed me to completely shut down Vengevine Survival. FYI
    Jace, the Mind Sculptor came in Handy vs. Pox
    Sword of Body and Mind was ran over Sword of Light and Shadow and was key in the pre-board victory over Vengevine Survival.

    Unfortunately, I was not able to draw into any Dueling Grounds against Zoo.
    Game 1: it was really the burn that got me that game. I had a sword of body and mind on a war monk, and was about to reck shop and stabalize at 7, but he drew into a lot burn before i could really get it going
    Game 2: Sided into 3 Dueling grounds, didn't draw any, but lost even with a turn 2 sword of body and mind.



    The SB i went with:
    aaronc123's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards


    Anyone have suggestions on the Zoo Matchup with my currect SB? I feel equips are too slow in this game.
    additional note: I'll probably drop Harmonic Sliver from the board for a Trygon Predator


    Maybe:
    Game 2 vs Zoo SB
    -1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    -1 Sword of Body and Mind
    -1 Stoneforge Mystic
    -2 Natural Order

    +3 Dueling Grounds
    +2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor


    Thank you mchief111, great sig

    Current Decks:


    Lvl 37 Planeswalker
    Current:

    Legacy:
    :symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | blue mana Spiral Tide | 0 mana MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | red mana Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | green mana Elf Combo
    Vintage:
    :symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
    Modern:
    :symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
    Standard:
    Wip
    EDH:
    :symb::symu::symw: Zur
  • #18
    Quote from aaronc123
    Went 4-0 Matches last FNM, but lost in top 8 to Zoo.

    Match 1: 2-0 vs. Dredge
    Match 2: 2-0 vs. Vengevine Survival
    Match 3: 2-1 vs. Imperial Painter
    Match 4: 2-1 vs. Pox

    Top 8: 0-2 vs Zoo

    Notes:
    Dueling Grounds allowed me to completely shut down Vengevine Survival. FYI
    Jace, the Mind Sculptor came in Handy vs. Pox
    Sword of Body and Mind was ran over Sword of Light and Shadow and was key in the pre-board victory over Vengevine Survival.

    Unfortunately, I was not able to draw into any Dueling Grounds against Zoo.
    Game 1: it was really the burn that got me that game. I had a sword of body and mind on a war monk, and was about to reck shop and stabalize at 7, but he drew into a lot burn before i could really get it going
    Game 2: Sided into 3 Dueling grounds, didn't draw any, but lost even with a turn 2 sword of body and mind.



    The SB i went with:
    Kevinliu's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards


    Anyone have suggestions on the Zoo Matchup with my currect SB? I feel equips are too slow in this game.
    additional note: I'll probably drop Harmonic Sliver from the board for a Trygon Predator


    Maybe:
    Game 2 vs Zoo SB
    -1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    -1 Sword of Body and Mind
    -1 Stoneforge Mystic
    -2 Natural Order

    +3 Dueling Grounds
    +2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor


    Congrats on your finish!

    I am not sure boarding out natural order is that great of an idea against zoo especially since your still keeping in noble hierarchs and a 10/10 with protection from everything can be pretty scary for the zoo player. I'd think I would rather board out the cliques instead. Although, your sideboard doesn't seem like it's tailored to shore up the zoo matchup.

    With so many aggro decks in your meta have you considered empyrial archangel for the board? Path to exile and blue blasts in the board could also be helpful in the zoo matchup. Of course, kitchen finks could have some application as well.
    Last edited by Kevinliu: 10/4/2010 2:45:23 PM
    2012: Top 64 at SCG Standard Portland Open with UW Miracle Control.
    2013: Top 32 at SCG Standard Tacoma Open with Esper Control.
    2014: Top 32 at SCG Legacy Tacoma Open with UWR Delver.
  • #19
    Quote from Kevinliu
    Congrats on your finish!

    I am not sure boarding out natural order is that great of an idea against zoo especially since your still keeping in noble hierarchs and a 10/10 with protection from everything can be pretty scary for the zoo player. I'd think I would rather board out the cliques instead. Although, your sideboard doesn't seem like it's tailored to shore up the zoo matchup.

    With so many aggro decks in your meta have you considered empyrial archangel for the board? Path to exile and blue blasts in the board could also be helpful in the zoo matchup. Of course, kitchen finks could have some application as well.


    Oh!! I never thought about the Angel. That isn't a bad idea.

    I think I can drop the Jace's from the board, cause they only really helped against Pox... and it was pure luck, Hierarch and Jace was in opening hand.

    3 Teeg might be overkill in my meta right now, i can NO > Teeg when needed, if i leave it MD. I do think extra counter would have helped against Zoo. There is Goblins running around besides mine as well... so Hydroblast isn't a bad idea either.

    So, what do you think about this for the board?

    aaronc123's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards


    Should i side out Progenitus? on the aggro matchups, since target will be Angel or leave both?


    Thank you mchief111, great sig

    Current Decks:


    Lvl 37 Planeswalker
    Current:

    Legacy:
    :symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | blue mana Spiral Tide | 0 mana MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | red mana Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | green mana Elf Combo
    Vintage:
    :symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
    Modern:
    :symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
    Standard:
    Wip
    EDH:
    :symb::symu::symw: Zur
  • #21
    Quote from aaronc123
    Oh!! I never thought about the Angel. That isn't a bad idea.

    I think I can drop the Jace's from the board, cause they only really helped against Pox... and it was pure luck, Hierarch and Jace was in opening hand.

    3 Teeg might be overkill in my meta right now, i can NO > Teeg when needed, if i leave it MD. I do think extra counter would have helped against Zoo. There is Goblins running around besides mine as well... so Hydroblast isn't a bad idea either.

    So, what do you think about this for the board?

    Kevinliu's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards


    Should i side out Progenitus? on the aggro matchups, since target will be Angel or leave both?

    Your sideboard looks fairly good but I'd like to see some path to exiles in there. However, I am not sure what to drop maybe a sword of light and shadow and something else.

    I'd probably keep both progenitus and empyral archangel in. Depending on the board state progenitus could be stronger since it hits for 10 instead of 5. Also, being able to cast more then one natural order to put two huge creatures on the field seems really good. Considering, zoo is very resilient and explosive against blue aggro-control decks. Well, except UG vengevine survival anyway.

    Also, I am suggesting blue blasts for the board since you can protect your hierarchs from burn spells and killing a grim lavamancer while your at it seems to be a priority in the zoo matchup.
    2012: Top 64 at SCG Standard Portland Open with UW Miracle Control.
    2013: Top 32 at SCG Standard Tacoma Open with Esper Control.
    2014: Top 32 at SCG Legacy Tacoma Open with UWR Delver.
  • #22
    Could you guys give some advice on how to play against merfolk and landstill. I seem to just loose against these decks.
    I have only played a few games vs these decks, but it seem there are a lot of these in our meta. And when I ran into one, it was an autoloss.

    My deck looks like this:

    chumpblocker's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    2 Island
    1 Forest
    1 Plains
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Windswept Heath
    4 Tundra
    4 Tropical Island

    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Quasali Pridemage
    3 Rhox Warmonk
    3 Trygon Predator
    1 Progenitus

    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    3 Natural Order



    Any advice on how play against merfolks and landstill or SB options would be great.
    thanks!
  • #23
    Against merfolk sideboard in Llawan, Cephalid Empress or merfolk assassin and save your removal for lord of atlantis... and get 4 tarmogoyf....
    Last edited by luckme10: 10/12/2010 4:03:29 AM
  • #24
    yeah. I took the goyfs out for a warmonk and trygons for testing. I'd probably be bringing them back.
    Thanks. I will try Llawan, Cephalid Empress in the SB.
    Do you think 3 Dueling Grounds and 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress would be ok? as that is what I have at the moment.
    But I still have Landstill to deal with.
  • #25
    The amount of sideboard dedication really depends on how prevalent you think the matchup will be.

    Although I haven't tested Dueling Grounds in this deck, I imagine its effectiveness is diminished now with Merfolk's Coralhelm Commander providing an additional beater/evasion. Still, I like the idea of anti swarm and I think it fits well in this deck. Llawan, on the other hand, like firesprout, is an effective sweeper.

    Landstill is tricky as you already know. And there are no real universal cards that we typically sideboard in to deal with such threats. Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle is good against deed/explosives and factory. I cannot stress enough how useful Needle is if you know your opponents possible targets. Elspeth and Vendilion Clique are also great threats against landstill. This is because Elspeth getting around their sweepers and Clique's card beater/evasion and discard is just awesome against blue. I usually run a pair of Vendillion Cliques main deck anyways since they are quite versatile. Another card is Academy Ruins. It's good for the long game (going well with needle and top) and provides great recursion effects.

    There are three cards that merfolk utilizes to easily beat landstill: Mutavault, Aether Vial, and Wasteland. Vial-Excalibur is a bant colored deck that utilizes mutavault and aether vial, possessing positive matchups against both Merfolk and Landstill. And although requiring a more hefty dedication, the later, Aether Vial, is simply amazing against Landstill. I think this warrants some testing in aggro heavy builds in conjuntion with or as opposed to Noble Hierarch.
    Last edited by luckme10: 10/12/2010 12:12:39 PM
  • #26
    Quote from luckme10
    The amount of sideboard dedication really depends on how prevalent you think the matchup will be.

    Although I haven't tested Dueling Grounds in this deck, I imagine its effectiveness is diminished now with Merfolk's Coralhelm Commander providing an additional beater/evasion. Still, I like the idea of anti swarm and I think it fits well in this deck. Llawan, on the other hand, like firesprout, is an effective sweeper.



    Well, Llawan/Firespout May be better than grounds against merfolk specifically.

    Here is my issue:

    My local meta has, from week to week
    2-3x Merfolk decks
    1-2 Zoo decks
    1-2 Goblin Decks
    1-2 Dredge Decks
    1 Madness Survival
    1 Pox deck
    1 White Stax
    1 Imperial Painter
    1 WW

    These are the normal decks that show up, besides white stax there is at least 1 that show up each week from the other archetypes that I listed.

    As you can see, Dueling Grounds hurts every deck (except Pox, Stax, and Painter of course), straight up stops Madness from winning in 1-2 turns. I feel it has more universal uses than sweepers, and on the offense, not much can go toe to toe against an Exalted, SoFM/SoBM equipped War Monk/Goyf (sobm = Sword of Body and Mind, I run Pro_Excalibur version). On the defensive side, I don't think even an Islandwalking Commander can outrace and equipped War Monk with Pro Blue.

    That being Said, My worst matchups are probably against Zoo and Merfolk. Especially without Dueling Grounds, Zoo's Burn gets me, and Islandwalking Merfolk just eat me alive.

    MD list for reference
    This leads me to SB discussion.

    My Original SB:

    Sideboard1Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    3 Dueling Grounds
    3 Gaddock Teeg
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    3 Krosan Grip
    2 Jace The Mind Sculptor
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow



    I made some changes and this is what I want to use this friday. However, I'm thinking about dropping Teeg altogether, because he has limited applications in my current meta. Only deck i used him against was dredge, and i really didn't need him when i played it.

    My Current SB:
    SideBoard2Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    3 Dueling Grounds
    2 Gaddock Teeg
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Krosan Grip
    3 Hydroblast
    1 Empyrial Archangel
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow



    I was thinking about taking out Teeg and replacing them with:
    2 x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
    ~or~
    2 x Path to Exile

    Anyone suggest anything else to further tweak my SB? Should i keep at least 1 Teeg on the SB so that i can Grab him with NO if needed?

    suggestions welcome.


    Thank you mchief111, great sig

    Current Decks:


    Lvl 37 Planeswalker
    Current:

    Legacy:
    :symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | blue mana Spiral Tide | 0 mana MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | red mana Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | green mana Elf Combo
    Vintage:
    :symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
    Modern:
    :symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
    Standard:
    Wip
    EDH:
    :symb::symu::symw: Zur
  • #27
    if zoo is your concern, i'd consider taking out some hydroblasts for absolute law; if black is your concern, try Absolute Grace . Submerge is also good against zoo and thus, should be considered as well.
    Last edited by luckme10: 10/13/2010 4:21:13 PM
  • #28
    Hello guys, I recently found a sotre within driving distance that helds legacy tournaments every saturdya and I want to give it a shot with an agro bant list. I dunnot know how the metagame will look like, I'd really appreciate any comment to my list;


    mimovil's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures
    4 noble hierarch
    4 tarmogoyf
    4 knight of the reliquary
    4 qasali pridemage

    4 Force of will
    4 daze
    4 brainstorm
    4 swords to plowshares
    4 path to exile
    2 jace 2.0

    Lands
    4 flooded strand
    3 misty rainforest
    3 windswepth heath
    2 tundra
    1 savannah
    2 tropical island
    4 wasteland
    1 forest
    1 island



    I have a feeling I'll be seeing lots of aggro decks that's the reason behind 8 removal spells. As for I sideboard I guess I'll have a general porpouse sideboard.
  • #29
    Quote from luckme10
    if zoo is your concern, i'd consider taking out some hydroblasts for absolute law; if black is your concern, try Absolute Grace . Submerge is also good against zoo and thus, should be considered as well.


    well, the problem is: I'm worried about Direct Burn damage, and Pox doesn't directly target anything. Submerge isn't bad.



    Also, there is a consistent Imperial Painter that's running around my meta... therefore, with Hydroblast i can counter Imperial Recruiter, as well as kill Grim Lavamancer, counter Burn spells targeting me or my nobles, or kill random Gobs/counter Piledriver.





    Quote from mimovil
    Hello guys, I recently found a sotre within driving distance that helds legacy tournaments every saturdya and I want to give it a shot with an agro bant list. I dunnot know how the metagame will look like, I'd really appreciate any comment to my list;


    aaronc123's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures
    4 noble hierarch
    4 tarmogoyf
    4 knight of the reliquary
    4 qasali pridemage

    4 Force of will
    4 daze
    4 brainstorm
    4 swords to plowshares
    4 path to exile
    2 jace 2.0

    Lands
    4 flooded strand
    3 misty rainforest
    3 windswepth heath
    2 tundra
    1 savannah
    2 tropical island
    4 wasteland
    1 forest
    1 island



    I have a feeling I'll be seeing lots of aggro decks that's the reason behind 8 removal spells. As for I sideboard I guess I'll have a general porpouse sideboard.


    Good list, but you sure that you have enough blue to support FoW?

    also, 8 removal is kinda much. I suggest you:
    -2 Path to Exile
    +2 Vendilion Clique or Rhox War Monk

    I think this will be better to support FoW.
    Move the 2 paths to the board.

    Also, Jace might not fit MB, Def good from the SB, How has he been working out?
    Last edited by aaronc123: 10/14/2010 3:36:37 PM


    Thank you mchief111, great sig

    Current Decks:


    Lvl 37 Planeswalker
    Current:

    Legacy:
    :symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | blue mana Spiral Tide | 0 mana MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | red mana Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | green mana Elf Combo
    Vintage:
    :symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
    Modern:
    :symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
    Standard:
    Wip
    EDH:
    :symb::symu::symw: Zur
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