The word BANT refers to the colors: :symw:, :symg:, :symu:. Not only are these considered three of the stronger colors in Legacy, but the printing of the Alara block puts these colors over the top. Bant is an Aggro-Control deck based upon these colors.They give you access to powerful/efficient creatures (:symg:), powerful control/counter (:symu:), and some of the most efficient removal/balancing options (:symw:), as well as the multicolored cards to compliment through the color wheel. Playing Bant, allows you to have strong match-ups against almost any kind of deck. It has enough counter/protection to delay Combo decks enough to potentially win; It has enough powerful creatures to out-aggro Aggro decks; Finally, it has enough weapons to out-last and defeat Control decks. The great thing about the colors, is that: one could potentially build a sideboard that can beat any deck in their local meta, and one can change the parts of the deck to make it more conrol than aggro; or more aggro than control, depending on what style of player you are. Other than Combo players, you can almost taylor BANT to your favorite style of play.
Here is a summary of the good and bad things of playing BANT.
PROS
great match-ups against many decks
MD hate on artifacts/enchantments leaving the bant player flexibility
Exalted
Counter/Cantrips/Removal
almost every play is a strong play
CONS
Not a deck to build for the Budget-Minded, expensive to make if cards aren't owned already.
Three-Color land base, proves difficult to deal with Wasteland/decks built to eliminate opponents resources
Difficult to run Utility Lands because of the land base and number of lands required to be efficient.
II. DECK CONSTRUCTION
I will break this section down into many parts for Organizational purposes as well as for purposes to distinguish between it's major Sub-archetypes.
A. "THE CORE"
This is by General Consensus, the very core of every Bant deck, being if it is control or not. Probably the set of cards I have seen as the "Core" in every competative build of this deck that I have ever seen.
Card Choices Noble Hierarch - Your Early Game Mana Fixer/NO Target/grants exalted Tarmogoyf - Um... Yeah. Rhox War Monk - almost broken, and as dreaded if not more so than 'goyf/chunked to FoW
Swords to Plowshares - Best 1-drop Removal in Legacy Brainstorm Staple Legacy Cantrip Force of Will Staple Counterspell, still one of the best cards ever. Daze - Secondary free counterspell, as well as Anti-Fow
About the NO > Progenitus Combo Package
Besides being an obvious Win Con, Many players would say it's not Bant without it. A turn 3 Progenitus is very strong. Although technically you don't need thepackage to use Bant, it is strong. The Utility of Natural Order almost makes it too Strong to not include. Prog is the Obvious target, but other nasty green creatures can come in from the board, or goyf can be fetched as a late game trick if all one has is a hierarch out for example. These are the main reasons why I would include this package in the "Core" of the deck. Dryad Arbor, The last piece of the mini-combo, is an uncounterable NO target/Fetchable by a fetchland, and could serve as a last resort Exalted Beater.
B. AGGRO VARIANTS
Added to the "Core" Cards, The following cards differentiate the aggro from the control Heavy versions. There are Two Aggro Variants that are very popular right now:
1. Bant aggro: The original Aggro deck for Bant 2. Pro Excalibur Utilizes Equipment to compliment the very powerful Creatures
Card Choices Qasali Pridemage - MD hate against enchants/artifacts/provides more exalted to your nasty core creatures. Vendilion Clique - Pseudo-Discard as well as evasive beater Kitchen Finks - another dreaded creature that has built-in recursion/life-gain. Ponder - usually added as an additional Cantrip in the straight aggro Build
Variant 2: Pro Excalibur
The difference here is dropping the additional Cantrips and a couple of weaker creatures (normally Kitchen Finks) for the "Equipment Package".
Card Choices Qasali Pridemage - MD hate against enchants/artifacts/provides more exalted to your nasty core creatures. Vendilion Clique - Pseudo-Discard as well as evasive beater
The Equipment Package Stoneforge Mystic - Allows one to fetch the proper equip needed at the time/cast without being countered Umezawa's Jitte - Very strong, possibly strongest equip ever printed Sword of Fire and Ice - Very good against Weenie/goblins/etc. Sword of Light and Shadow - Protection if opponent has lots of removal
C. CONTROL VARIANTS
Added to the "Core" Cards, The following cards differentiate the Control from the Aggro Heavy versions. There is one popular control variant right now:
1. BANT CONTROL
The creature selection is a bit different here, and most people reduce the number of Rhox War Monk to 0-3 to fit the CounterTop Package into the deck as well as other control cards. Though it has the counter-top package in it, it is not truly a Countertop deck. For it has the means to play as one, it, unlike counter-top decks, is not based on countertop as the core of the deck.
Card Choices Trygon Predator - an enchant/artifact killer with staying power as well as evasive beater Jace The Mind Sculptor - permanent cantrip/creature control/as well as alternate win con
CounterTop Package
Utilizes Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance to achieve an all-in-one, Cantriping, counterspell engine. Some decks are based this as the core.
D. LAND SELECTION
Like the many variants of the builds for Bant, Deciding on which Dual/Fetches to use and the number of which to use, depends highly on the variant you decide to play. I have seen anywhere from 17 Lands (Aggro Heavy) to 22 Lands (Control Heavy). What I will do here is construct basically the Core of Lands Needed at minimum. The fillers will be Basic Lands. Because one of the inherent weaknesses of the deck is that it's 3 colors, anything beyond the core should be additional basic lands, probably basic Forest or Islands should be added. One can add more duals/fetches for the control build I suppose, but then it becomes vulnerable to Wasteland and what have you. Note: If your are using Daze, The duals should be Island based.
This is what you should have, at the very minimum.
Like the land, Choosing the proper Side Board for your Meta and/or weak match ups is as important as the deck construction itself. Here I will Cover Most but not all card selections as good side board choices. This will cover both the Aggro, and the control Variants.
Card Choices Sword of Body and Mind
with the growing popularity of Madness Survival, as well as extra pro-blue/green needs grow, this is great for SB, it is even a personal preference of mine to run this over the light and shadow sword MD in Pro Excalibur, dropping the other sword to the board. Can be used against Merfolk with great success as well.
Dueling Grounds
Being that your creatures are Exalted, and theirs not in most cases, this will give the edge to both attacking and defending, allowing one to outrace very potent decks such as Zoo, Gobs, 'folk.
Path to Exile
for the aggro heavy Meta. Having 6-7 StP effects will mean the differences between defeat and failure in most mtach-ups
Krosan Grip
Split second removal needed to face off against CouterTop, or other heavy counter/control decks
Propaganda / Ghostly Prison
Some more options against the Aggro-Heavy Meta, some people prefer this to Dueling Grounds
Silence / Orim's Chant
The popularity of these on the side boards for Bant have waned since the banning of Mystical Tutor. It is still a viable option to stop combo however.
Meddling Mage
Good as a SB option from the board of the aggro OR control variants
Gaddock Teeg / Ethersworn Canonist
again, less popular today, because of combo being less effecient. Definately works against other decks though.
Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Great against Merfolk, may have too much of a narrow scope for your local meta however.
Fire Spout
If red is splashed, this becomes a powerful sweeper against, Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo
Empyrial Archangel
An additional NO target from the board that can shore up the deck in a heavy aggro environment.
Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus
Your standard Legacy Graveyard Hate. If played at the proper times, can shut down really explosive decks.
Here are some alternate cards or cards that are good in their own right, but they might be difficult to fit MD or SB. However, some of these cards pop up on lists from time to time.
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Great against painter decks, but isn't good enough to run 4 of. Tutor package almost needed.
Knight of the Reliquary
Very formidable creature, but there isn't enough land, nor room for utility lands... Therefore, is almost useless
Rafiq of the Many
Legendary, therefore not a good option to run... almost a win-more card. Can be NO'ed.
Counterspell
slower than all the other good Legacy counters, but wouldn't be bad as an alternate in the control variant
III. GAMEPLAY
Whatever version one uses, it is pretty straight-forward. You play many efficient creatures and attack. At it's heart, it's an Aggro deck. However, it has enough support/disrutpion to outlast some very serious decks. For the versions that don't run any Planeswalkers, Progenitus is your other win condition. It is possible to have it on the board by turn 3 with this deck. The NO > Progenitus is by no means a combo that you should try mulligan into unless the situation calls for it. Your opponent is placed on a 2-turn clock. Some faint-hearted opponents will concede to the mere resolving of Natural Order. Also, remember, Progenitus is not your only NO Target. Imagine if you will, someone having a Meekstone out. If you have, especially 2 NO in your hand, don't be afraid to grab a Qasali Pridemage / Trygon Predator / Harmonic Sliver. For in this instance, Progenitus is useless until that artifact is Destroyed.
The most Difficult part of either version of Bant is deciding what/when to use Natural Order for. It is very Utility. Also, This deck taps out early to play threats, it uses FoW and Daze for protection as well as stopping your opponents early plays.
As for opening Hands, in most cases you want to keep a hand if:
2 lands + 1 Hierarch
2 lands
1 land + 1 Hierarch
1 Land + 2 Hierarch
Ideal would be to keep Hands with a couple of creatures, couple of counters a couple lands and/or 1 cantrip and/or 1 StP.
Band Hands:
2 NOs 1 Progenitus 1 Plains rest creatures
No lands (obvious)
This deck Curves out at about 4, so as long as you have 2 Mana sources pretty quickly, you should be ok.
IV. MATCHUPS
I will briefly cover match-ups from my experience with this deck. As i play against other decks and gain experiences with them I will post my findings. Please PM me about information regarding other match-ups or if you have different opinions on the match-up information below and I will update the Primer.
note: I don't use control version, if you play control version please PM me what you consider bad/good matchups according to the following scale, and I will update the Primer.
KEY
Favorable - 75%+ chances of winning against Slightly Favorable - 56%-74% Chance of winning Even Match - 45% - 55% Chance of winning Slightly Unfavorable - 26%-44% Chance of Winning Unfavorable - 25% and below chance of winning
note: this isn't actually by the numbers and is opinionated through my experiences. Odds of matchups being good or bad may vary depending on which version of bant you are running. If you are using Bant aggro, this is pretty close to the odds. I'm not sure about the Control versions. The following Results are from Pro Excalibur Specifically. Percentages are just to give one an idea of how difficult the match-ups are
I am suspicious of this so-called Bant aggro as proven. Currently (summer/fall of 2010), the best "Bant" deck that is winning, runs both Bant and Survival. You can look up "Bant Survival" in deckcheck, some decent results. Some versions even runs Vengevine. The Counterbalance version has almost disappeared from the Top 8 scenes. Unless you group all of them together, or you want to keep Survival version separate from the "traditional" Bant.
Bant 'Aggro' and Control are lumped together for the purpose of this thread. Even without what deckcheck calls 'Aggro', 'Control' on it's on passed the 3.75% mark required for Proven.
I disagree that the Counterbalance version has disappeared. Rather, it's made numerous Top 8 appearances(hence why it's in Proven). Bant Survival did not make as impressive a showing(hence its absence from Proven).
so is bant aggro still good?? i dont see anyone posting in here... and in case it doesnt run the survival package or the countertop package, would it still be viable?
so is bant aggro still good?? i dont see anyone posting in here... and in case it doesnt run the survival package or the countertop package, would it still be viable?
It's good as of the last two months, otherwise it wouldn't be in Proven.
My guess on why there's a lack of activity is a) it's a fairly refined list, so there isn't much to discuss, b) no one here really plays it, so there's few people to discuss it.
It's actually the opposite. The reason why there's so much lack of activity isn't because the deck is fairly refined, it's because the deck has so many variants. Everyone wants to make subtle changes to Bant and create a new deck flavor. Think of Bant Aggro like vanilla ice cream with no topings.
Lack of activity is due to the following:
1)Since the matchup differences are quite subtle between it's variants, it make it hard to pinpoint. Insofar that it actually requires a logic tree to realize you're playing this deck. -.-
2) Natural Order has become less popular due to speed increase of legacy likely-hood of getting and increase in power of other cards. Now, Progentius is no longer unarguably the best fatty.
3)Tons of alternative decks are available with the changing of very few cards. Not only is it just countertop/survival, now Enter New Horizons, Excalibur, UWg Tempo, etc.
4) These alternative variants are a bit more specialized to offer a subtle but important play difference, catering to people who've invested into the card pools choices.
5) Merfolk is more popular than ever...
I went 3-1 Last Friday, losing in top 4 to Merfolk.
Edit: Match up breakdown
Match 1, L 1-2 vs Vengvine Survival
Match 2, W 2-0 vs Merfolk
Match 3, W 2-0 vs Dredge
Match 4, W 2-1 vs Zoo
Top 8: W 2-0 vs. Goblins
Top 4: L 1-2 vs Merfolk
I like this deck, i was never down and out the few games i lost.
End Edit
VS. Merfolk I am 1-1, Merfolk for some reason tends to eat my Lunch, it was the Island Walk and wasteland. A goblin player scooped to my Jitte on a war monk. I barely lost to Vengevine Survival. Crushed Zoo and barely beat the other Merfolk deck stabalizing at just 3 life one game.
Side Note:
Natural Order > Harmonic sliver can get you out of a sticky situation
I am Considering the following changes on October 1st (when SoM is legal):
Main Deck
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
+1 Sword of Body and Mind I think this card will enourmously tip the balances if it resolves against Merfolk, Vengevine Survival or Zoo. The mill 10 cards might help Vengevine Survival, but the Wolf Tokens Hurt.
Side Board:
-2 Engineered Explosives - don't want to kill my own win cons
-3 Pithing Needle - Don't really use, helps against Survival, but can be played around
-1 Krosan Grip - I can lose a K-grip, not very often i need split second, but nice to have on the board
+3 Dueling Grounds - Think that this card can flat out halt Merfolk/Vengevine Survival/Goblins/Zoo in a pinch. One of their guys vs. one of my exalted Goyfs/War Monks with a sword or Jitte is just bonkers.
+2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor - This is highly experimental, but could come from nowhere and out tech the opponent.
+1 Sword of Light and Shadow - Moved from Main to side. No one in Meta uses Lots of StP or MBA, so this is logical to be put on the board being that U and/or G are stronger colors.
Well, I like them both along with Propaganda, but they are all the same cost and I'm not running any mana denial. so, if it gets to a point in the game, they can tap and attack with 2 creatures...
With Goblins for instance you would have to deal with a 3/2 Piledriver AND a 2/2 Warchief in this situation instead of just a 1/2 Piledriver or 2/2 warchief... if I have a Monk out, I'm taking the 3 cause of the Pro Blue
Same for Merfolk, If they all have Island walk, they can be hitting me for 5-7 damage if they have enough open, with grounds, if it resolves, there may only be a 2/2 or a 4/4 to deal with.
IMHO, the prison can be played around a lot easier.
I've actually tested dueling grounds in Countertop progenitus to shore up the merfolk matchup and it tends to work out pretty well. I don't remember wishing the dueling grounds was something else either. Besides, if the merfolk player can level up coralhelm commander to four in one turn then I am sure they can easily pay mana for ghostly prison/propoganda regardless.
Sure, dueling grounds cost another color to cast but you do have noble hierarchs and the relevant fetchlands.
Unfortunately, I was not able to draw into any Dueling Grounds against Zoo. Game 1: it was really the burn that got me that game. I had a sword of body and mind on a war monk, and was about to reck shop and stabalize at 7, but he drew into a lot burn before i could really get it going Game 2: Sided into 3 Dueling grounds, didn't draw any, but lost even with a turn 2 sword of body and mind.
Anyone have suggestions on the Zoo Matchup with my currect SB? I feel equips are too slow in this game. additional note: I'll probably drop Harmonic Sliver from the board for a Trygon Predator
Unfortunately, I was not able to draw into any Dueling Grounds against Zoo. Game 1: it was really the burn that got me that game. I had a sword of body and mind on a war monk, and was about to reck shop and stabalize at 7, but he drew into a lot burn before i could really get it going Game 2: Sided into 3 Dueling grounds, didn't draw any, but lost even with a turn 2 sword of body and mind.
Anyone have suggestions on the Zoo Matchup with my currect SB? I feel equips are too slow in this game. additional note: I'll probably drop Harmonic Sliver from the board for a Trygon Predator
I am not sure boarding out natural order is that great of an idea against zoo especially since your still keeping in noble hierarchs and a 10/10 with protection from everything can be pretty scary for the zoo player. I'd think I would rather board out the cliques instead. Although, your sideboard doesn't seem like it's tailored to shore up the zoo matchup.
With so many aggro decks in your meta have you considered empyrial archangel for the board? Path to exile and blue blasts in the board could also be helpful in the zoo matchup. Of course, kitchen finks could have some application as well.
I am not sure boarding out natural order is that great of an idea against zoo especially since your still keeping in noble hierarchs and a 10/10 with protection from everything can be pretty scary for the zoo player. I'd think I would rather board out the cliques instead. Although, your sideboard doesn't seem like it's tailored to shore up the zoo matchup.
With so many aggro decks in your meta have you considered empyrial archangel for the board? Path to exile and blue blasts in the board could also be helpful in the zoo matchup. Of course, kitchen finks could have some application as well.
Oh!! I never thought about the Angel. That isn't a bad idea.
I think I can drop the Jace's from the board, cause they only really helped against Pox... and it was pure luck, Hierarch and Jace was in opening hand.
3 Teeg might be overkill in my meta right now, i can NO > Teeg when needed, if i leave it MD. I do think extra counter would have helped against Zoo. There is Goblins running around besides mine as well... so Hydroblast isn't a bad idea either.
Oh!! I never thought about the Angel. That isn't a bad idea.
I think I can drop the Jace's from the board, cause they only really helped against Pox... and it was pure luck, Hierarch and Jace was in opening hand.
3 Teeg might be overkill in my meta right now, i can NO > Teeg when needed, if i leave it MD. I do think extra counter would have helped against Zoo. There is Goblins running around besides mine as well... so Hydroblast isn't a bad idea either.
Should i side out Progenitus? on the aggro matchups, since target will be Angel or leave both?
Your sideboard looks fairly good but I'd like to see some path to exiles in there. However, I am not sure what to drop maybe a sword of light and shadow and something else.
I'd probably keep both progenitus and empyral archangel in. Depending on the board state progenitus could be stronger since it hits for 10 instead of 5. Also, being able to cast more then one natural order to put two huge creatures on the field seems really good. Considering, zoo is very resilient and explosive against blue aggro-control decks. Well, except UG vengevine survival anyway.
Also, I am suggesting blue blasts for the board since you can protect your hierarchs from burn spells and killing a grim lavamancer while your at it seems to be a priority in the zoo matchup.
Could you guys give some advice on how to play against merfolk and landstill. I seem to just loose against these decks.
I have only played a few games vs these decks, but it seem there are a lot of these in our meta. And when I ran into one, it was an autoloss.
yeah. I took the goyfs out for a warmonk and trygons for testing. I'd probably be bringing them back.
Thanks. I will try Llawan, Cephalid Empress in the SB.
Do you think 3 Dueling Grounds and 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress would be ok? as that is what I have at the moment.
But I still have Landstill to deal with.
The amount of sideboard dedication really depends on how prevalent you think the matchup will be.
Although I haven't tested Dueling Grounds in this deck, I imagine its effectiveness is diminished now with Merfolk's Coralhelm Commander providing an additional beater/evasion. Still, I like the idea of anti swarm and I think it fits well in this deck. Llawan, on the other hand, like firesprout, is an effective sweeper.
Landstill is tricky as you already know. And there are no real universal cards that we typically sideboard in to deal with such threats. Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle is good against deed/explosives and factory. I cannot stress enough how useful Needle is if you know your opponents possible targets. Elspeth and Vendilion Clique are also great threats against landstill. This is because Elspeth getting around their sweepers and Clique's card beater/evasion and discard is just awesome against blue. I usually run a pair of Vendillion Cliques main deck anyways since they are quite versatile. Another card is Academy Ruins. It's good for the long game (going well with needle and top) and provides great recursion effects.
There are three cards that merfolk utilizes to easily beat landstill: Mutavault, Aether Vial, and Wasteland. Vial-Excalibur is a bant colored deck that utilizes mutavault and aether vial, possessing positive matchups against both Merfolk and Landstill. And although requiring a more hefty dedication, the later, Aether Vial, is simply amazing against Landstill. I think this warrants some testing in aggro heavy builds in conjuntion with or as opposed to Noble Hierarch.
The amount of sideboard dedication really depends on how prevalent you think the matchup will be.
Although I haven't tested Dueling Grounds in this deck, I imagine its effectiveness is diminished now with Merfolk's Coralhelm Commander providing an additional beater/evasion. Still, I like the idea of anti swarm and I think it fits well in this deck. Llawan, on the other hand, like firesprout, is an effective sweeper.
Well, Llawan/Firespout May be better than grounds against merfolk specifically.
Here is my issue:
My local meta has, from week to week
2-3x Merfolk decks
1-2 Zoo decks
1-2 Goblin Decks
1-2 Dredge Decks
1 Madness Survival
1 Pox deck
1 White Stax
1 Imperial Painter
1 WW
These are the normal decks that show up, besides white stax there is at least 1 that show up each week from the other archetypes that I listed.
As you can see, Dueling Grounds hurts every deck (except Pox, Stax, and Painter of course), straight up stops Madness from winning in 1-2 turns. I feel it has more universal uses than sweepers, and on the offense, not much can go toe to toe against an Exalted, SoFM/SoBM equipped War Monk/Goyf (sobm = Sword of Body and Mind, I run Pro_Excalibur version). On the defensive side, I don't think even an Islandwalking Commander can outrace and equipped War Monk with Pro Blue.
That being Said, My worst matchups are probably against Zoo and Merfolk. Especially without Dueling Grounds, Zoo's Burn gets me, and Islandwalking Merfolk just eat me alive.
I made some changes and this is what I want to use this friday. However, I'm thinking about dropping Teeg altogether, because he has limited applications in my current meta. Only deck i used him against was dredge, and i really didn't need him when i played it.
if zoo is your concern, i'd consider taking out some hydroblasts for absolute law; if black is your concern, try Absolute Grace . Submerge is also good against zoo and thus, should be considered as well.
Hello guys, I recently found a sotre within driving distance that helds legacy tournaments every saturdya and I want to give it a shot with an agro bant list. I dunnot know how the metagame will look like, I'd really appreciate any comment to my list;
I have a feeling I'll be seeing lots of aggro decks that's the reason behind 8 removal spells. As for I sideboard I guess I'll have a general porpouse sideboard.
if zoo is your concern, i'd consider taking out some hydroblasts for absolute law; if black is your concern, try Absolute Grace . Submerge is also good against zoo and thus, should be considered as well.
well, the problem is: I'm worried about Direct Burn damage, and Pox doesn't directly target anything. Submerge isn't bad.
Also, there is a consistent Imperial Painter that's running around my meta... therefore, with Hydroblast i can counter Imperial Recruiter, as well as kill Grim Lavamancer, counter Burn spells targeting me or my nobles, or kill random Gobs/counter Piledriver.
Hello guys, I recently found a sotre within driving distance that helds legacy tournaments every saturdya and I want to give it a shot with an agro bant list. I dunnot know how the metagame will look like, I'd really appreciate any comment to my list;
I have a feeling I'll be seeing lots of aggro decks that's the reason behind 8 removal spells. As for I sideboard I guess I'll have a general porpouse sideboard.
Good list, but you sure that you have enough blue to support FoW?
Hi. Has anyone tried Leyline of Sanctity?
I think it could come in for burn, tendrils combo(there still are some out there), discarder (which usually show up in our local store) and some grindstone decks.
I just got 4 and I'm thinking of trying it out. Though I'm not really sure.
My current SB would look like this:
I think this will be better to support FoW.
Move the 2 paths to the board.
Also, Jace might not fit MB, Def good from the SB, How has he been working out?
I have almost encountered no problems with FOW support, I will test the changes you suggest.
I really like MD Jace, it keeps me from not running out of was and it can be pitched to FOW early in the game. My list is more agro oriented so many people don't see it coming and it can be game breaking.
Is 4 daze too much? It just an awful topdeck, should I lower the daze count to 3?
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PRIMER: BANT
Updated: 10/13/10
I. INTRODUCTION
The word BANT refers to the colors: :symw:, :symg:, :symu:. Not only are these considered three of the stronger colors in Legacy, but the printing of the Alara block puts these colors over the top. Bant is an Aggro-Control deck based upon these colors.They give you access to powerful/efficient creatures (:symg:), powerful control/counter (:symu:), and some of the most efficient removal/balancing options (:symw:), as well as the multicolored cards to compliment through the color wheel. Playing Bant, allows you to have strong match-ups against almost any kind of deck. It has enough counter/protection to delay Combo decks enough to potentially win; It has enough powerful creatures to out-aggro Aggro decks; Finally, it has enough weapons to out-last and defeat Control decks. The great thing about the colors, is that: one could potentially build a sideboard that can beat any deck in their local meta, and one can change the parts of the deck to make it more conrol than aggro; or more aggro than control, depending on what style of player you are. Other than Combo players, you can almost taylor BANT to your favorite style of play.
Here is a summary of the good and bad things of playing BANT.
PROS
II. DECK CONSTRUCTION
I will break this section down into many parts for Organizational purposes as well as for purposes to distinguish between it's major Sub-archetypes.
A. "THE CORE"
This is by General Consensus, the very core of every Bant deck, being if it is control or not. Probably the set of cards I have seen as the "Core" in every competative build of this deck that I have ever seen.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force Of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
Card Choices
Noble Hierarch - Your Early Game Mana Fixer/NO Target/grants exalted
Tarmogoyf - Um... Yeah.
Rhox War Monk - almost broken, and as dreaded if not more so than 'goyf/chunked to FoW
Swords to Plowshares - Best 1-drop Removal in Legacy
Brainstorm Staple Legacy Cantrip
Force of Will Staple Counterspell, still one of the best cards ever.
Daze - Secondary free counterspell, as well as Anti-Fow
About the NO > Progenitus Combo Package
Besides being an obvious Win Con, Many players would say it's not Bant without it. A turn 3 Progenitus is very strong. Although technically you don't need thepackage to use Bant, it is strong. The Utility of Natural Order almost makes it too Strong to not include. Prog is the Obvious target, but other nasty green creatures can come in from the board, or goyf can be fetched as a late game trick if all one has is a hierarch out for example. These are the main reasons why I would include this package in the "Core" of the deck. Dryad Arbor, The last piece of the mini-combo, is an uncounterable NO target/Fetchable by a fetchland, and could serve as a last resort Exalted Beater.
B. AGGRO VARIANTS
Added to the "Core" Cards, The following cards differentiate the aggro from the control Heavy versions. There are Two Aggro Variants that are very popular right now:
1. Bant aggro: The original Aggro deck for Bant
2. Pro Excalibur Utilizes Equipment to compliment the very powerful Creatures
Variant 1: Bant Aggro/Straight Bant Aggro
3 Qasali Pridemages
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Ponder
Card Choices
Qasali Pridemage - MD hate against enchants/artifacts/provides more exalted to your nasty core creatures.
Vendilion Clique - Pseudo-Discard as well as evasive beater
Kitchen Finks - another dreaded creature that has built-in recursion/life-gain.
Ponder - usually added as an additional Cantrip in the straight aggro Build
Variant 2: Pro Excalibur
The difference here is dropping the additional Cantrips and a couple of weaker creatures (normally Kitchen Finks) for the "Equipment Package".
3 Qasali Pridemages
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Card Choices
Qasali Pridemage - MD hate against enchants/artifacts/provides more exalted to your nasty core creatures.
Vendilion Clique - Pseudo-Discard as well as evasive beater
The Equipment Package
Stoneforge Mystic - Allows one to fetch the proper equip needed at the time/cast without being countered
Umezawa's Jitte - Very strong, possibly strongest equip ever printed
Sword of Fire and Ice - Very good against Weenie/goblins/etc.
Sword of Light and Shadow - Protection if opponent has lots of removal
C. CONTROL VARIANTS
Added to the "Core" Cards, The following cards differentiate the Control from the Aggro Heavy versions. There is one popular control variant right now:
1. BANT CONTROL
The creature selection is a bit different here, and most people reduce the number of Rhox War Monk to 0-3 to fit the CounterTop Package into the deck as well as other control cards. Though it has the counter-top package in it, it is not truly a Countertop deck. For it has the means to play as one, it, unlike counter-top decks, is not based on countertop as the core of the deck.
1 Trygon Predator
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
Card Choices
Trygon Predator - an enchant/artifact killer with staying power as well as evasive beater
Jace The Mind Sculptor - permanent cantrip/creature control/as well as alternate win con
CounterTop Package
Utilizes Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance to achieve an all-in-one, Cantriping, counterspell engine. Some decks are based this as the core.
D. LAND SELECTION
Like the many variants of the builds for Bant, Deciding on which Dual/Fetches to use and the number of which to use, depends highly on the variant you decide to play. I have seen anywhere from 17 Lands (Aggro Heavy) to 22 Lands (Control Heavy). What I will do here is construct basically the Core of Lands Needed at minimum. The fillers will be Basic Lands. Because one of the inherent weaknesses of the deck is that it's 3 colors, anything beyond the core should be additional basic lands, probably basic Forest or Islands should be added. One can add more duals/fetches for the control build I suppose, but then it becomes vulnerable to Wasteland and what have you. Note: If your are using Daze, The duals should be Island based.
This is what you should have, at the very minimum.
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Forest
E. Side Board Selection
Like the land, Choosing the proper Side Board for your Meta and/or weak match ups is as important as the deck construction itself. Here I will Cover Most but not all card selections as good side board choices. This will cover both the Aggro, and the control Variants.
Card Choices
Sword of Body and Mind
with the growing popularity of Madness Survival, as well as extra pro-blue/green needs grow, this is great for SB, it is even a personal preference of mine to run this over the light and shadow sword MD in Pro Excalibur, dropping the other sword to the board. Can be used against Merfolk with great success as well.
Dueling Grounds
Being that your creatures are Exalted, and theirs not in most cases, this will give the edge to both attacking and defending, allowing one to outrace very potent decks such as Zoo, Gobs, 'folk.
Path to Exile
for the aggro heavy Meta. Having 6-7 StP effects will mean the differences between defeat and failure in most mtach-ups
Krosan Grip
Split second removal needed to face off against CouterTop, or other heavy counter/control decks
Propaganda / Ghostly Prison
Some more options against the Aggro-Heavy Meta, some people prefer this to Dueling Grounds
Silence / Orim's Chant
The popularity of these on the side boards for Bant have waned since the banning of Mystical Tutor. It is still a viable option to stop combo however.
Meddling Mage
Good as a SB option from the board of the aggro OR control variants
Gaddock Teeg / Ethersworn Canonist
again, less popular today, because of combo being less effecient. Definately works against other decks though.
Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Great against Merfolk, may have too much of a narrow scope for your local meta however.
Fire Spout
If red is splashed, this becomes a powerful sweeper against, Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo
Empyrial Archangel
An additional NO target from the board that can shore up the deck in a heavy aggro environment.
Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus
Your standard Legacy Graveyard Hate. If played at the proper times, can shut down really explosive decks.
Pithing Needle
Colorless/cheap answers to the like of Survival of the Fittest, Goblin Charbelcher, etc.
Engineered Explosives
Cheap/colorless removal not requiring a color splash
Hydroblast / Blue Elemental Blast
Some very good Anti-Red cards as well as additional counters
Spell Pierce
Has become in it's own right, an additional cheap counterspell, or anti-Force of Will addition to many Legacy Decks
Qasali Pridemage / Trygon Predator / Harmonic Sliver
Additional cretures placed on the board to help surprise opponent/ more NO Targets if need be.
F. ALTERNATE CARD SELECTIONS
Here are some alternate cards or cards that are good in their own right, but they might be difficult to fit MD or SB. However, some of these cards pop up on lists from time to time.
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Great against painter decks, but isn't good enough to run 4 of. Tutor package almost needed.
Knight of the Reliquary
Very formidable creature, but there isn't enough land, nor room for utility lands... Therefore, is almost useless
Rafiq of the Many
Legendary, therefore not a good option to run... almost a win-more card. Can be NO'ed.
Submerge
good against Zoo
Runed Halo
Good against Combo mainly but has other uses. Same problem as Wheel. :symw::symw: cc may be too harsh
Elspeth, Knight Errant
possible alternate win con in the Bant control version
Mother of Runes
great card to use with war monks and goyfs. possible alternate to Cliques/Finks.
Spell Snare
Good alternate to Daze
Chalice of the Void
Can be used with some success in the Control Variant
Counterspell
slower than all the other good Legacy counters, but wouldn't be bad as an alternate in the control variant
III. GAMEPLAY
Whatever version one uses, it is pretty straight-forward. You play many efficient creatures and attack. At it's heart, it's an Aggro deck. However, it has enough support/disrutpion to outlast some very serious decks. For the versions that don't run any Planeswalkers, Progenitus is your other win condition. It is possible to have it on the board by turn 3 with this deck. The NO > Progenitus is by no means a combo that you should try mulligan into unless the situation calls for it. Your opponent is placed on a 2-turn clock. Some faint-hearted opponents will concede to the mere resolving of Natural Order. Also, remember, Progenitus is not your only NO Target. Imagine if you will, someone having a Meekstone out. If you have, especially 2 NO in your hand, don't be afraid to grab a Qasali Pridemage / Trygon Predator / Harmonic Sliver. For in this instance, Progenitus is useless until that artifact is Destroyed.
The most Difficult part of either version of Bant is deciding what/when to use Natural Order for. It is very Utility. Also, This deck taps out early to play threats, it uses FoW and Daze for protection as well as stopping your opponents early plays.
As for opening Hands, in most cases you want to keep a hand if:
2 lands + 1 Hierarch
2 lands
1 land + 1 Hierarch
1 Land + 2 Hierarch
Ideal would be to keep Hands with a couple of creatures, couple of counters a couple lands and/or 1 cantrip and/or 1 StP.
Band Hands:
2 NOs 1 Progenitus 1 Plains rest creatures
No lands (obvious)
This deck Curves out at about 4, so as long as you have 2 Mana sources pretty quickly, you should be ok.
IV. MATCHUPS
I will briefly cover match-ups from my experience with this deck. As i play against other decks and gain experiences with them I will post my findings. Please PM me about information regarding other match-ups or if you have different opinions on the match-up information below and I will update the Primer.
note: I don't use control version, if you play control version please PM me what you consider bad/good matchups according to the following scale, and I will update the Primer.
KEY
Favorable - 75%+ chances of winning against
Slightly Favorable - 56%-74% Chance of winning
Even Match - 45% - 55% Chance of winning
Slightly Unfavorable - 26%-44% Chance of Winning
Unfavorable - 25% and below chance of winning
note: this isn't actually by the numbers and is opinionated through my experiences. Odds of matchups being good or bad may vary depending on which version of bant you are running. If you are using Bant aggro, this is pretty close to the odds. I'm not sure about the Control versions. The following Results are from Pro Excalibur Specifically. Percentages are just to give one an idea of how difficult the match-ups are
Bant Aggro/Pro Excalibur Matches
Zoo - slightly unfavorable
-postboard: Even
Merfolk - slightly unfavorable
-postboard: - slightly favorable
Dredge - slightly favorable
-postboard: favorable
Survival Madness/Vengevine Survival - slightly unfavorable
postboard: slightly Favorable
Pox - unfavorable
postboard: slightly unfavorable / even
Bant Control Match-Ups
?? TBD ??
Any suggestions additional info is welcome. Please PM and I will update the primer as soon as possible.
My record with Pro Excalibur
4-1 Matches FNM
My List
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus
1 Dryad Arbor
Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Natural Order
Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Body and Mind
Land
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Dueling Grounds
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
3 Hydroblast
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
CREDITS
i credit Federico Gazzotti on Deckcheck, for I play that list with minor tweaks.
I reference many lists from the Bant Deckcheck lists under "Control" and "Aggro" in the Legacy Section.
I credit the other "Proven threads" to inspire the design of this Primer.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Bant 'Aggro' and Control are lumped together for the purpose of this thread. Even without what deckcheck calls 'Aggro', 'Control' on it's on passed the 3.75% mark required for Proven.
I disagree that the Counterbalance version has disappeared. Rather, it's made numerous Top 8 appearances(hence why it's in Proven). Bant Survival did not make as impressive a showing(hence its absence from Proven).
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
It's good as of the last two months, otherwise it wouldn't be in Proven.
My guess on why there's a lack of activity is a) it's a fairly refined list, so there isn't much to discuss, b) no one here really plays it, so there's few people to discuss it.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Lack of activity is due to the following:
1)Since the matchup differences are quite subtle between it's variants, it make it hard to pinpoint. Insofar that it actually requires a logic tree to realize you're playing this deck. -.-
2) Natural Order has become less popular due to speed increase of legacy likely-hood of getting and increase in power of other cards. Now, Progentius is no longer unarguably the best fatty.
3)Tons of alternative decks are available with the changing of very few cards. Not only is it just countertop/survival, now Enter New Horizons, Excalibur, UWg Tempo, etc.
4) These alternative variants are a bit more specialized to offer a subtle but important play difference, catering to people who've invested into the card pools choices.
5) Merfolk is more popular than ever...
I found quite a few Bant decks on deckcheck for reference here is the link:
http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Bant+Control&format=Legacy
A lot of people run 2 and 2... But I run 4 StP because you can StP your own goyf and gain 5-7 life to buy an extra turn.
I'm running the Pro-Excalibur Version:
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Progenitus
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
1 Dryad Arbor
Instant
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Natural Order
Artifacts
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Land
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tundra
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Savannah
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Engineered Explosives
I went 3-1 Last Friday, losing in top 4 to Merfolk.
Edit: Match up breakdown
Match 1, L 1-2 vs Vengvine Survival
Match 2, W 2-0 vs Merfolk
Match 3, W 2-0 vs Dredge
Match 4, W 2-1 vs Zoo
Top 8: W 2-0 vs. Goblins
Top 4: L 1-2 vs Merfolk
I like this deck, i was never down and out the few games i lost.
End Edit
VS. Merfolk I am 1-1, Merfolk for some reason tends to eat my Lunch, it was the Island Walk and wasteland. A goblin player scooped to my Jitte on a war monk. I barely lost to Vengevine Survival. Crushed Zoo and barely beat the other Merfolk deck stabalizing at just 3 life one game.
Side Note:
Natural Order > Harmonic sliver can get you out of a sticky situation
I am Considering the following changes on October 1st (when SoM is legal):
Main Deck
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
+1 Sword of Body and Mind I think this card will enourmously tip the balances if it resolves against Merfolk, Vengevine Survival or Zoo. The mill 10 cards might help Vengevine Survival, but the Wolf Tokens Hurt.
Side Board:
-2 Engineered Explosives - don't want to kill my own win cons
-3 Pithing Needle - Don't really use, helps against Survival, but can be played around
-1 Krosan Grip - I can lose a K-grip, not very often i need split second, but nice to have on the board
+3 Dueling Grounds - Think that this card can flat out halt Merfolk/Vengevine Survival/Goblins/Zoo in a pinch. One of their guys vs. one of my exalted Goyfs/War Monks with a sword or Jitte is just bonkers.
+2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor - This is highly experimental, but could come from nowhere and out tech the opponent.
+1 Sword of Light and Shadow - Moved from Main to side. No one in Meta uses Lots of StP or MBA, so this is logical to be put on the board being that U and/or G are stronger colors.
The end result, This will be my new Board:
3 Dueling Grounds
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Krosan Grip
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Tormod's Crypt
Any suggestions/opinions welcome.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Trades
http://www.cashpirate.com/members/register.php?ref=Malcolmbw
make money for free online.
Looking for Karakas, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Aether Vials and more
Well, I like them both along with Propaganda, but they are all the same cost and I'm not running any mana denial. so, if it gets to a point in the game, they can tap and attack with 2 creatures...
With Goblins for instance you would have to deal with a 3/2 Piledriver AND a 2/2 Warchief in this situation instead of just a 1/2 Piledriver or 2/2 warchief... if I have a Monk out, I'm taking the 3 cause of the Pro Blue
Same for Merfolk, If they all have Island walk, they can be hitting me for 5-7 damage if they have enough open, with grounds, if it resolves, there may only be a 2/2 or a 4/4 to deal with.
IMHO, the prison can be played around a lot easier.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Sure, dueling grounds cost another color to cast but you do have noble hierarchs and the relevant fetchlands.
Match 1: 2-0 vs. Dredge
Match 2: 2-0 vs. Vengevine Survival
Match 3: 2-1 vs. Imperial Painter
Match 4: 2-1 vs. Pox
Top 8: 0-2 vs Zoo
Notes:
Dueling Grounds allowed me to completely shut down Vengevine Survival. FYI
Jace, the Mind Sculptor came in Handy vs. Pox
Sword of Body and Mind was ran over Sword of Light and Shadow and was key in the pre-board victory over Vengevine Survival.
Unfortunately, I was not able to draw into any Dueling Grounds against Zoo.
Game 1: it was really the burn that got me that game. I had a sword of body and mind on a war monk, and was about to reck shop and stabalize at 7, but he drew into a lot burn before i could really get it going
Game 2: Sided into 3 Dueling grounds, didn't draw any, but lost even with a turn 2 sword of body and mind.
The SB i went with:
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Dueling Grounds
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Krosan Grip
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Anyone have suggestions on the Zoo Matchup with my currect SB? I feel equips are too slow in this game.
additional note: I'll probably drop Harmonic Sliver from the board for a Trygon Predator
Maybe:
Game 2 vs Zoo SB
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice
-1 Sword of Body and Mind
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-2 Natural Order
+3 Dueling Grounds
+2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Congrats on your finish!
I am not sure boarding out natural order is that great of an idea against zoo especially since your still keeping in noble hierarchs and a 10/10 with protection from everything can be pretty scary for the zoo player. I'd think I would rather board out the cliques instead. Although, your sideboard doesn't seem like it's tailored to shore up the zoo matchup.
With so many aggro decks in your meta have you considered empyrial archangel for the board? Path to exile and blue blasts in the board could also be helpful in the zoo matchup. Of course, kitchen finks could have some application as well.
Oh!! I never thought about the Angel. That isn't a bad idea.
I think I can drop the Jace's from the board, cause they only really helped against Pox... and it was pure luck, Hierarch and Jace was in opening hand.
3 Teeg might be overkill in my meta right now, i can NO > Teeg when needed, if i leave it MD. I do think extra counter would have helped against Zoo. There is Goblins running around besides mine as well... so Hydroblast isn't a bad idea either.
So, what do you think about this for the board?
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Empyrial Archangel
3 Dueling Grounds
3 Hydroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Should i side out Progenitus? on the aggro matchups, since target will be Angel or leave both?
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Your sideboard looks fairly good but I'd like to see some path to exiles in there. However, I am not sure what to drop maybe a sword of light and shadow and something else.
I'd probably keep both progenitus and empyral archangel in. Depending on the board state progenitus could be stronger since it hits for 10 instead of 5. Also, being able to cast more then one natural order to put two huge creatures on the field seems really good. Considering, zoo is very resilient and explosive against blue aggro-control decks. Well, except UG vengevine survival anyway.
Also, I am suggesting blue blasts for the board since you can protect your hierarchs from burn spells and killing a grim lavamancer while your at it seems to be a priority in the zoo matchup.
I have only played a few games vs these decks, but it seem there are a lot of these in our meta. And when I ran into one, it was an autoloss.
My deck looks like this:
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Quasali Pridemage
3 Rhox Warmonk
3 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Natural Order
Any advice on how play against merfolks and landstill or SB options would be great.
thanks!
Thanks. I will try Llawan, Cephalid Empress in the SB.
Do you think 3 Dueling Grounds and 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress would be ok? as that is what I have at the moment.
But I still have Landstill to deal with.
Although I haven't tested Dueling Grounds in this deck, I imagine its effectiveness is diminished now with Merfolk's Coralhelm Commander providing an additional beater/evasion. Still, I like the idea of anti swarm and I think it fits well in this deck. Llawan, on the other hand, like firesprout, is an effective sweeper.
Landstill is tricky as you already know. And there are no real universal cards that we typically sideboard in to deal with such threats. Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle is good against deed/explosives and factory. I cannot stress enough how useful Needle is if you know your opponents possible targets. Elspeth and Vendilion Clique are also great threats against landstill. This is because Elspeth getting around their sweepers and Clique's card beater/evasion and discard is just awesome against blue. I usually run a pair of Vendillion Cliques main deck anyways since they are quite versatile. Another card is Academy Ruins. It's good for the long game (going well with needle and top) and provides great recursion effects.
There are three cards that merfolk utilizes to easily beat landstill: Mutavault, Aether Vial, and Wasteland. Vial-Excalibur is a bant colored deck that utilizes mutavault and aether vial, possessing positive matchups against both Merfolk and Landstill. And although requiring a more hefty dedication, the later, Aether Vial, is simply amazing against Landstill. I think this warrants some testing in aggro heavy builds in conjuntion with or as opposed to Noble Hierarch.
Well, Llawan/Firespout May be better than grounds against merfolk specifically.
Here is my issue:
My local meta has, from week to week
2-3x Merfolk decks
1-2 Zoo decks
1-2 Goblin Decks
1-2 Dredge Decks
1 Madness Survival
1 Pox deck
1 White Stax
1 Imperial Painter
1 WW
These are the normal decks that show up, besides white stax there is at least 1 that show up each week from the other archetypes that I listed.
As you can see, Dueling Grounds hurts every deck (except Pox, Stax, and Painter of course), straight up stops Madness from winning in 1-2 turns. I feel it has more universal uses than sweepers, and on the offense, not much can go toe to toe against an Exalted, SoFM/SoBM equipped War Monk/Goyf (sobm = Sword of Body and Mind, I run Pro_Excalibur version). On the defensive side, I don't think even an Islandwalking Commander can outrace and equipped War Monk with Pro Blue.
That being Said, My worst matchups are probably against Zoo and Merfolk. Especially without Dueling Grounds, Zoo's Burn gets me, and Islandwalking Merfolk just eat me alive.
MD list for reference
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
Sorcery
3 Natural Order
Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
My Original SB:
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
2 Jace The Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
I made some changes and this is what I want to use this friday. However, I'm thinking about dropping Teeg altogether, because he has limited applications in my current meta. Only deck i used him against was dredge, and i really didn't need him when i played it.
My Current SB:
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
3 Hydroblast
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
I was thinking about taking out Teeg and replacing them with:
2 x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
~or~
2 x Path to Exile
Anyone suggest anything else to further tweak my SB? Should i keep at least 1 Teeg on the SB so that i can Grab him with NO if needed?
suggestions welcome.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
4 qasali pridemage
4 Force of will
4 daze
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
4 path to exile
2 jace 2.0
4 flooded strand
3 misty rainforest
3 windswepth heath
2 tundra
1 savannah
2 tropical island
4 wasteland
1 forest
1 island
I have a feeling I'll be seeing lots of aggro decks that's the reason behind 8 removal spells. As for I sideboard I guess I'll have a general porpouse sideboard.
well, the problem is: I'm worried about Direct Burn damage, and Pox doesn't directly target anything. Submerge isn't bad.
Also, there is a consistent Imperial Painter that's running around my meta... therefore, with Hydroblast i can counter Imperial Recruiter, as well as kill Grim Lavamancer, counter Burn spells targeting me or my nobles, or kill random Gobs/counter Piledriver.
Good list, but you sure that you have enough blue to support FoW?
also, 8 removal is kinda much. I suggest you:
-2 Path to Exile
+2 Vendilion Clique or Rhox War Monk
I think this will be better to support FoW.
Move the 2 paths to the board.
Also, Jace might not fit MB, Def good from the SB, How has he been working out?
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
I think it could come in for burn, tendrils combo(there still are some out there), discarder (which usually show up in our local store) and some grindstone decks.
I just got 4 and I'm thinking of trying it out. Though I'm not really sure.
My current SB would look like this:
3 Dueling Grounds
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Relic of Progenitus
Our meta here has some of every deck but usually has Merfolks, Zoo, Gobs, Rock, Landstill, Loam, Dredge and different forms of BANT.
Any suggestions for my SB? Is Leyline of Sanctity worth the slot?
Thanks!
I have almost encountered no problems with FOW support, I will test the changes you suggest.
I really like MD Jace, it keeps me from not running out of was and it can be pitched to FOW early in the game. My list is more agro oriented so many people don't see it coming and it can be game breaking.
Is 4 daze too much? It just an awful topdeck, should I lower the daze count to 3?