I personally think people underrate countertop right now because of how skill intensive the deck can be. But in a random meta I would think countertop could shore up alot of matchups since it provides that "soft lock" but that's just based on my experience.
It only provides the soft lock when your playing in a developed meta, because you can build your deck to tailor to it.
In a random meta, I would play a more aggro/control build and ditch the CB strategy.
Also, I advise Vendilion Clique on the list above.
It only provides the soft lock when your playing in a developed meta, because you can build your deck to tailor to it.
In a random meta, I would play a more aggro/control build and ditch the CB strategy.
Also, I advise Vendilion Clique on the list above.
Eh, it depends, there are alot of decks that have a mana curve from 1-3 so that's where CB truely shines. Still, countertop is quite skill intensive to play properly and so that's why alot of players shy away from it but the better players will always resort back to countertop at some point. Also, clique isn't very good in a metagame full of aggro decks like zoo and goblins. Clique is much better against blue based decks.
Eh, it depends, there are alot of decks that have a mana curve from 1-3 so that's where CB truely shines. Still, countertop is quite skill intensive to play properly and so that's why alot of players shy away from it but the better players will always resort to countertop at some point. Also, clique isn't very good in a metagame full of aggro decks like zoo and goblins. Clique is much better against blue based decks.
But it's understandable to cut the CB plan if your focusing more on the short game compared to the long one. I personally would play countertop in a random meta since I am more accustomed to playing blue based aggro-control with countertop then without it(Unless it's merfolks). I feel being quite comfortable with a certain list goes a long way in being successful in tournaments.
I personally think people underrate countertop right now because of how skill intensive the deck can be. But in a random meta I would think countertop could shore up alot of matchups since it provides that "soft lock" but that's just based on my experience.
I personally wouldn't, I thought I had them in there. Anyway, I would probably cut a 1 path, 1 ponder, and 2 pridemages for 4 noble hierarchs. 18 blue cards for force of will seems plenty anyway. You could also cut a knight but I think playing 4 KOTR is correct.
What is everyones opinion on Rhox War Monk versus Knight of the Reliquary in CounterTop Progenitus? Both fit the 3 drop slot, and I'm talking a 4-of.
Rhox War Monk
Pros:
1. Hoses aggro, gives time to set up Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance or Natural Order
2. 3 drop, second turn off of a Noble Hierarch, good with Daze
3. 4 Toughness
4. The creature Burn players don't want to see
5. Lifelink is insane, especially with exalted
6. Can be pitched to Force of Will
Cons:
1. Although it rarely occurs, casting it can sometimes he problematic
2. Gets trumped by Goyf in the later game
Knight of the Reliquary
Pros:
1. Tutorable lands (Karakas, Wasteland, etc.)
2. I would probably play a Clique or two main deck if I play Karakas, and Clique is good, especially when you need to see some fresh cards with Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance
3. The biggest creature on the board after turn 3, and for the rest of the game, unless you want to Natural Order for Progenitus
4. Tutoring up fetchlands to reset Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top
Cons:
1. Can't exile to Force of Will
2. Wasteland makes the mana base slightly worse, especially when the deck relies heavily on GG (Natural Order), and UU (Counterbalance)
3. I don't think I would use him for being the aggressor, but more of a controlling/utility creature (I guess this is my playstyle, as supposed to other people who know when and when to not attack with Knight)
Let me know what I'm missing. What should I play as a 4 of? I don't want a 2-2 or 3-1 split, I don't think that's right.
I run a NO/Zenith/Excalibur list and have considered all numbers of splits, but I keep coming back to 4 War Monk. The reason is pretty simple: lifelink wins games. I cannot count the number of games I won because of lifelink.
For CB, things are a little different. You don't want a Rhox turn 2 or 3, because you want to nail the CB, and later KotR is better. On the other hand, Rhox will buy you time if you don't see CB. To be honest, I don't know, because I have never liked any CB deck, but I hope maybe my ramblings help in some way. Maybe post your list?
KOtR is a bit situational. rhox warmonk is better, and is proven its worth eversince.
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A team should be as happy as a meal - TEAM HAPPYMEAL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tronGR
Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
Do you guys think, with the addition of Mental Misstep, that Noble Hierarch should get cut from the deck?
From what I can imagine, this card is supposed to slow down the format so many the acceleration isn't needed???
Also, will Beat Within make an apperrance in the decks 75?
I doubt it. Exalted is powerful, and turn 2 Rhox get better, not worse, in a slower format. If you are worrying about it being countered, that's something else, although I still wouldn't drop it.
I run a NO/Zenith/Excalibur list and have considered all numbers of splits, but I keep coming back to 4 War Monk. The reason is pretty simple: lifelink wins games. I cannot count the number of games I won because of lifelink.
For CB, things are a little different. You don't want a Rhox turn 2 or 3, because you want to nail the CB, and later KotR is better. On the other hand, Rhox will buy you time if you don't see CB. To be honest, I don't know, because I have never liked any CB deck, but I hope maybe my ramblings help in some way. Maybe post your list?
Eh, maybe in Excalibur, but definetly not in NO/Zenith. I would run 1 at most.
Natural Order will always be powerful. I think Countertop just got got better, because Misstep answers the problematic cards (Turn 1 Aether Vial for Merfolk, etc.)
CounterTop Progenitus is a deck as well, try combining the two.
Natural Order will always be powerful. I think Countertop just got got better, because Misstep answers the problematic cards (Turn 1 Aether Vial for Merfolk, etc.)
CounterTop Progenitus is a deck as well, try combining the two.
That was the original NO Bant, was NO and CounterTop in the same deck.
However Zenith made NO a more consistent threat as there as no longer any need for Top, and it could switch to an aggro set-up as well.
That was the original NO Bant, was NO and CounterTop in the same deck.
However Zenith made NO a more consistent threat as there as no longer any need for Top, and it could switch to an aggro set-up as well.
I haven't tested GSZ too much. I plan on doing it soon. I'm just not a fan of pure aggro strategies. Let's face it, all the deck has for permission/removal is Swords, Force of Will and Daze.
I can see this card replacing Daze in temp oriented Bant Builds. I feel it fits the aggro/excalibur strategies. Being able to counter that turn 1 lackey/vial/thoughtseize/StP/misstep while casting your Noble is very aggressive while on the play.
I feel like it might be helpful if this thread were separated into different threads for the Aggro/Excalibur build, NO Bant (minus Counterbalance), and builds with Counterbalance (which could possibly be merged into existing Counterbalance threads). I only say this because they all seem like separate and very different decks only connected by color and possibly evolution, as Dyne pointed out. Not sure if this will happen, but if other people feel the same way it might help to say so. I also say this because I'm mostly just interested in the NO Bant build of AJ Sacher and Todd Anderson fame (and probably others as well).
So anyway, regarding that deck, what do people think of this version piloted by Reid Duke?
The deck seems ridiculously strong because as someone else said, it's basically an aggro-control-combo deck to some extent, at least that it can play each role well enough to shift to the best one for the given matchup. Clique helps a lot with this I feel because it fills the aggro and control roles very well. The drawbacks seem to be the loss of Swords (because this is actually not Bant) and a lack of GSZ toolbox dudes, which have helped other builds. In the toolbox direction is this deck, suggested by Todd Anderson for after Mental Misstep is printed:
This one is more traditional, of course, and eschews the ability to sling Bolts to the face in order to deal with creatures that have more than 3 toughness. I really like the Terastodon in the maindeck, as it is often a better NO target than Proggy and gives you another out to a drawn Proggy. What I don't really like are the 2 Tarmogoyfs, because I still really want to run 4 so that the beatdown plan becomes stronger and to allow you to grab toolbox creatures with your GSZs instead of getting Goyfs with them all the time. Thoughts on this?
Yeah, it is silly, but in reality it is basically the same deck with one change - he took out the only white card and added 6 bolts, so I guess it's helpful at least to keep the deck under the same title as similar decks. And it further highlights the fact that sometimes it's silly to organize a thread by color rather than by strategy.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Does anyone think Sword of Feast and Famine has a place in this deck?
I imagine this sword being a beast in this deck just for the fact that you get to untap your lands.
The protection is real good too...just a thought
Here's my first shot at Bant in Legacy so any help would be GREATLY appreciated!
I really like the main deck but I could see taking out Rhox War Monk for maybe another Vendilion Clique and another Daze; maybe adding a Qasali Pridemage would be good too.
This one is more traditional, of course, and eschews the ability to sling Bolts to the face in order to deal with creatures that have more than 3 toughness. I really like the Terastodon in the maindeck, as it is often a better NO target than Proggy and gives you another out to a drawn Proggy. What I don't really like are the 2 Tarmogoyfs, because I still really want to run 4 so that the beatdown plan becomes stronger and to allow you to grab toolbox creatures with your GSZs instead of getting Goyfs with them all the time. Thoughts on this?
I've been playing this deck but -1 Tropical Island, -1 Terravore, +2 Goyf. This deck is almost a combo deck as it wins 70%+ of its games on the back of Natural Order. Misstep has been decent at protecting creatures but not too great at protecting Natural Order. I still prefer it to Daze, however. Terastadon IS amazing. It completely turns the High Tide in your favor-them losing three lands is an insane setback. It's also great against Merfolk if you're behind-blow up all your island and suddenly get 18 power worth of creatures. It has solid matchups all around. During testing the only deck I had a little trouble with was Affinity but sideboard hate can usually solve that problem.
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It only provides the soft lock when your playing in a developed meta, because you can build your deck to tailor to it.
In a random meta, I would play a more aggro/control build and ditch the CB strategy.
Also, I advise Vendilion Clique on the list above.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Eh, it depends, there are alot of decks that have a mana curve from 1-3 so that's where CB truely shines. Still, countertop is quite skill intensive to play properly and so that's why alot of players shy away from it but the better players will always resort back to countertop at some point. Also, clique isn't very good in a metagame full of aggro decks like zoo and goblins. Clique is much better against blue based decks.
This is very true.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Is it alright to cut the Noble Hierarchs?
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
I personally wouldn't, I thought I had them in there. Anyway, I would probably cut a 1 path, 1 ponder, and 2 pridemages for 4 noble hierarchs. 18 blue cards for force of will seems plenty anyway. You could also cut a knight but I think playing 4 KOTR is correct.
Rhox War Monk
Pros:
1. Hoses aggro, gives time to set up Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance or Natural Order
2. 3 drop, second turn off of a Noble Hierarch, good with Daze
3. 4 Toughness
4. The creature Burn players don't want to see
5. Lifelink is insane, especially with exalted
6. Can be pitched to Force of Will
Cons:
1. Although it rarely occurs, casting it can sometimes he problematic
2. Gets trumped by Goyf in the later game
Knight of the Reliquary
Pros:
1. Tutorable lands (Karakas, Wasteland, etc.)
2. I would probably play a Clique or two main deck if I play Karakas, and Clique is good, especially when you need to see some fresh cards with Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance
3. The biggest creature on the board after turn 3, and for the rest of the game, unless you want to Natural Order for Progenitus
4. Tutoring up fetchlands to reset Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top
Cons:
1. Can't exile to Force of Will
2. Wasteland makes the mana base slightly worse, especially when the deck relies heavily on GG (Natural Order), and UU (Counterbalance)
3. I don't think I would use him for being the aggressor, but more of a controlling/utility creature (I guess this is my playstyle, as supposed to other people who know when and when to not attack with Knight)
Let me know what I'm missing. What should I play as a 4 of? I don't want a 2-2 or 3-1 split, I don't think that's right.
For CB, things are a little different. You don't want a Rhox turn 2 or 3, because you want to nail the CB, and later KotR is better. On the other hand, Rhox will buy you time if you don't see CB. To be honest, I don't know, because I have never liked any CB deck, but I hope maybe my ramblings help in some way. Maybe post your list?
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah (Really useful with Natural Order)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
From what I can imagine, this card is supposed to slow down the format so many the acceleration isn't needed???
Also, will Beat Within make an apperrance in the decks 75?
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Eh, maybe in Excalibur, but definetly not in NO/Zenith. I would run 1 at most.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Also, which deck is better now? CounterTop or Natural Order?
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
Natural Order will always be powerful. I think Countertop just got got better, because Misstep answers the problematic cards (Turn 1 Aether Vial for Merfolk, etc.)
CounterTop Progenitus is a deck as well, try combining the two.
That was the original NO Bant, was NO and CounterTop in the same deck.
However Zenith made NO a more consistent threat as there as no longer any need for Top, and it could switch to an aggro set-up as well.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I haven't tested GSZ too much. I plan on doing it soon. I'm just not a fan of pure aggro strategies. Let's face it, all the deck has for permission/removal is Swords, Force of Will and Daze.
I can see this card replacing Daze in temp oriented Bant Builds. I feel it fits the aggro/excalibur strategies. Being able to counter that turn 1 lackey/vial/thoughtseize/StP/misstep while casting your Noble is very aggressive while on the play.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES |
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
So anyway, regarding that deck, what do people think of this version piloted by Reid Duke?
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus
4 Vendilion Clique
Sorceries
2 Chain Lightning
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Ponder
1 Forest
1 Island
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Terastodon
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Flame Slash
The deck seems ridiculously strong because as someone else said, it's basically an aggro-control-combo deck to some extent, at least that it can play each role well enough to shift to the best one for the given matchup. Clique helps a lot with this I feel because it fills the aggro and control roles very well. The drawbacks seem to be the loss of Swords (because this is actually not Bant) and a lack of GSZ toolbox dudes, which have helped other builds. In the toolbox direction is this deck, suggested by Todd Anderson for after Mental Misstep is printed:
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Terastodon
1 Terravore
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Ponder
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
4 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Vendilion Clique
This one is more traditional, of course, and eschews the ability to sling Bolts to the face in order to deal with creatures that have more than 3 toughness. I really like the Terastodon in the maindeck, as it is often a better NO target than Proggy and gives you another out to a drawn Proggy. What I don't really like are the 2 Tarmogoyfs, because I still really want to run 4 so that the beatdown plan becomes stronger and to allow you to grab toolbox creatures with your GSZs instead of getting Goyfs with them all the time. Thoughts on this?
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
I find it funny that this be classified as Bant even though it's colors are UGr instead of UGw.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
I imagine this sword being a beast in this deck just for the fact that you get to untap your lands.
The protection is real good too...just a thought
Here's my first shot at Bant in Legacy so any help would be GREATLY appreciated!
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords of Plowshares
3 Daze
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
I really like the main deck but I could see taking out Rhox War Monk for maybe another Vendilion Clique and another Daze; maybe adding a Qasali Pridemage would be good too.
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
I've been playing this deck but -1 Tropical Island, -1 Terravore, +2 Goyf. This deck is almost a combo deck as it wins 70%+ of its games on the back of Natural Order. Misstep has been decent at protecting creatures but not too great at protecting Natural Order. I still prefer it to Daze, however. Terastadon IS amazing. It completely turns the High Tide in your favor-them losing three lands is an insane setback. It's also great against Merfolk if you're behind-blow up all your island and suddenly get 18 power worth of creatures. It has solid matchups all around. During testing the only deck I had a little trouble with was Affinity but sideboard hate can usually solve that problem.