I just discovered this thread. I built a Pox deck but am running in a 5-way games (only) w/things like Syphon Soul, Subversion & Necropotence etc. Yeah..casual format.
The deck has always been rather hit or miss. You've given me a LOT of new tech to explore.
Just wanted to pop in and say thanks.
You're very much welcome Feel free to ask any questions you like about the archetype and I will answer them to the best of my ability (as will others I hope :p).
I'd argue that you would almost have to run Dark Ritual if you wish to include Liliana, as well as more mana than usual (ideally a Crucible base). But, yes, she would be rather interesting in a Pox build! Pox doesn't touch her at all, and she could go very neatly with The Rack, and of course gives you an alternate win condition. And she plays into the style of Pox rather nicely. If only she was one or two mana cheaper Here's to hoping they print a :symb::symb::symb: planeswalker in an upcoming set
I've played around a bit more with pox deck building and I've noticed a few issues with the archetype. I hope my observations can help make the game plan a bit less clunky.
It's basically a question of acheiving the optimal balance between consistency, redundancy and flexibility. Pox and Smallpox is the core - they attack almost all deck types (except dredge), by attacking from so many angles. Most other cards are more or less narrow and risk being dead in some MUs. As with all decks, we should devote some slots MD and some slots SB for aggro, combo, control etc. to complement the pox-effects.
But the flexibility comes at the cost of either lacking consistency or excessive redundancy. Take something like Siphon Life - an excellent card. But if run as a 1-of, we can't count on it in the MUs where we need it, such as burn. In fact, we may have to devote 3 slots to hope for any sort of game 1 consistency. But then the problem becomes redundancy - once we have a copy in hand/grave, the others are pretty useless. And what's more, other retrace spells are less attractive too. My guess/rule of thumb would be to include at least 2 copies MD of a retrace spell, with 1-2 extra in the side for certain MUs, and no more than 4 retrace spells total in the main.
Then there are the static effects like Crucible or Contamination. I think Legacy deck building in general has shown us that 3 is the right number for such effects, unless you run tutors or heavy draw. That gives you a reasonable chance to get one each game, a reasonable chance to replace a destroyed copy in a long game, and a reasonable chance to avoid drawing multiple "dead" copies.
I think part of the solution to this problem is looking at each card in your pox list and consider interactions and multi-purpose applications. Especially win conditions. For example, comparing The Rack with Cursed Scroll, CS is more multi-purpose since it also kills threats or utility creatures like confidant (and doesn't rely on opponent's hand size). Comparing Tomb of Urami and Tombstalker as finishers, Urami is clearly more multi-purpose since it can also produce mana in the early-mid game. That doesn't mean that a swiss army knife always beats an assault rifle, but the core of pox lies in having efficient cards that do many things IMO.
One must also consider interactions. For example, if we look again at Tombstalker vs. Urami as a finisher, adding Crucible to the mix tips the scales further towards Urami. Most of these interactions (like Bitterblossom being better with Contamination etc) are covered in the primer though, so I won't repeat it here.
Waddjathink about this? Have you had the same experiences? I'd like to optimize and streamline a non-budget pox list once the game plans against different deck types are clear to me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe! "At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted." [Click here for the articles!]
Oh yeah, I'm all for as much versatility as possible and ditching useless stuff is good. The problem is, there's only 60 slots to fill which means we need each one to do as much as possible.
About splashes... what have you found? Green and white seems most promising. What's in it for the mono black version?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe! "At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted." [Click here for the articles!]
Well, B2B and PoP are hardly seen in today's meta, and Wasteland is not a big threat with Crucible and being able to fetch basics. So that leaves Moon and the Contamination argument. How strong is Contamination really?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe! "At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted." [Click here for the articles!]
Contamination in the right meta is very devastating...I like it personally because you lock your opponent out if they don't run colorless cards or black cards. It is very good against aggro loam because they can't wish without a mox diamond and powder keg can remove their diamonds. Just depends on your build but I wish there was a good planeswalkers for BBB it'd be awesome if it had a pox effect for negative loyalty.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
planeswalker in this deck? no thx. 4-5 mana is too difficult to get it out. turn 3 Liliana Vess with ritual is slow. play more hand disruption/sink hole you will be better.
also if budget not an issue, mox diamond > dark ritual. doesn't kill by pox, provide you with mana to keep the tempo going after pox. just watch out for EE.
Before you get all mad at me for calling my Pox Deck Swine Flu, this is a Pox deck in the making where I want to infect people with Pox and Smallpox so they lose life and creatures.
If you have a Problem...oh well I'm cynical, it's a disease that would be bad to have and I don't wish it on anyone.
Few cards that I'm working on getting for this deck:
Pox
Raven's Crime
Crucible of Worlds
The Rack
Undiscovered paradise
This is for Online Classic, so the card pool is obviously more limited. I found that the GB deck in the original post had too many win conditions, besides the Tempting Wurms being weak in general, so I cut them.
There was more discussion on The Rack a few pages back, but I'll go ahead and throw my two cents in: due to its easy casting cost, it often comes down when you have nothing better to play and either does 3-5 damage or fundamentally alters the way your opponent plays. I often side them out for more match up appropriate cards, but their versitality makes them strong enough for a few main deck slots.
It may be the relatively low aggro level of the online classic format, but I have never had a problem with amount of self-inflicted damage, even with the shocklands instead of duals. I'd say that the Blackmails could therefore probably be the stronger Thoughtseize without a problem, but I don't have the cash to find out at the moment.
I haven't seen Wretched Banquet mentioned yet, but it is very strong removal in a deck with so many sacrifice effects, combined with the fact that all of your own creatures are huge, so the odds of being unable to hit an opponent's creature because of them is low. It lacks the dissynergy with Goyf and Stalker of Spinning Darkness and Ghastly Demise and has the ability to hit opposing Stalkers that Smother lacks.
well if you don't want to make a thoughseize proxy you could always just say that your blackmail is a thoughsieze. That way you can still "Test it out".
On your Wretched Banquet I could have bought 4 of them today for $0.50 but I opted not to, I would much rater play Innocent Blood
Innocent Blood is pretty bad in GB because it hits your own guys too. When you're ending the game in three swings, the last thing you want to do is to remove your clock. The only things Innocent Blood hits that Banquet doesn't are Mongoose, which eats it to the early Pox effects anyway, and pro-black dudes, the only one of which I can think of is Stillmoon Cavalier, maybe.
Yeah pay $.50 for a wretched banquet? That card is worthless I can find it in the commons bin or mooch off drafters for the card it's so common in limited formats
Yeah I like innocent blood more than wretched banquet if you have nether spirit out wretched banquet seems like a terrible topdeck unless you're facing a bob in aggro loam. Even then, innocent blood is good because you can swing then sack your nether spirit and return it next turn with it's useful ability
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Obviously Wretched Banquet doesn't work if you use Nether Spirit and totems as your win condition. However, if you use big dudes (ie the GB pox in which I list it), it has a number of advantages over the other possible options.
Goblin Lackey, Dark Confidant and Magus of the Moon are all good targets for Wretched Banquet. Versions without Nether Spirit and other small threats can run this new removal, without big drawbacks. When there is a Lackey and maybe a Piledriver or Matron, you want to kill the Lackey! Innocent Blood can't do that. Banquet does.
Take something like Siphon Life - an excellent card. But if run as a 1-of, we can't count on it in the MUs where we need it, such as burn. In fact, we may have to devote 3 slots to hope for any sort of game 1 consistency. But then the problem becomes redundancy - once we have a copy in hand/grave, the others are pretty useless. And what's more, other retrace spells are less attractive too. My guess/rule of thumb would be to include at least 2 copies MD of a retrace spell, with 1-2 extra in the side for certain MUs, and no more than 4 retrace spells total in the main.
I agree with no more than 4ish retrace spells per deck, but a 1-of of Siphon Life is most certainly not a bad thing maindeck. Don't count on drawing it when you need to, because you're only running one, but use it as a splendid element of surprise and a late game turn-around. It's very design promotes its efficiency much later in the game anyways; you only want to increase your consistency of drawing it if you're facing a fast clock presented by threats that you cannot really answer with Smallpox/Pox (burn).
Quote from urdjur »
Then there are the static effects like Crucible or Contamination. I think Legacy deck building in general has shown us that 3 is the right number for such effects, unless you run tutors or heavy draw. That gives you a reasonable chance to get one each game, a reasonable chance to replace a destroyed copy in a long game, and a reasonable chance to avoid drawing multiple "dead" copies.
Three is the right number for a 3-mana permanent that you want to resolve after or in relation to other key aspects of the deck. But this is hardly an ultimatum- every candidate deserves playtesting to determine how many copies of each you want to run, and much is of course dependant on your metagame (4 Crucible of Worlds vs. 3 maindeck in a metagame where you expect TONS of nonbasic land hate for example).
Quote from urdjur »
I think part of the solution to this problem is looking at each card in your pox list and consider interactions and multi-purpose applications. Especially win conditions. For example, comparing The Rack with Cursed Scroll, CS is more multi-purpose since it also kills threats or utility creatures like confidant (and doesn't rely on opponent's hand size). Comparing Tomb of Urami and Tombstalker as finishers, Urami is clearly more multi-purpose since it can also produce mana in the early-mid game. That doesn't mean that a swiss army knife always beats an assault rifle, but the core of pox lies in having efficient cards that do many things IMO.
While versatility in a card is always welcomed and often integral to an efficient deck, there again is no real ultimatum for a given card or type of card here- each of these cards you've referenced is, as you initially say, very dependant on the rest of the deck. I'll go into detail for each:
The Rack: Very dependant on how much your deck focuses on discard, and how little your deck focuses on land destruction. I would almost never run this and Sinkhole in the same deck.
Cursed Scroll: A wonderful card, but dependant on you dropping your hand down to a low count easily, and having the mana to take advantage of it. I would argue these are most at home in a list that also runs Mox Diamond (and Crucible of Worlds), which fills both of those roles.
Tombstalker: Dependant on you being able to fill up your graveyard, and how many you run is dependant on how succesfully your deck does this (and how little it depends on cards in the graveyard, such as with Crucible of Worlds).
Tomb of Urami: How many you run is dependant on how well you can recover from land loss. The more Mox Diamonds & Crucibles you run, the more Tomb of Uramis you can comfortably run.
Anyway, I get the notion a bit that you're trying to classify different types of cards into "ways to play with them" in an effort to select what is good for the typical Pox deck. I think I might be misunderstanding you though, and perhaps my point is simply reinforcing your own intended point. The point I want to make is that there are many different successful Pox archetypes, and each one uses a given card differently. You can't really collect it all into one consensus and assign it governing regulations on efficiency, as Pox is such a diverse archetype (gosh I love Pox :D).
Quote from King Canute »
Daze is awesome in the deck though if you can justify the number of islands. They almost all need to be non basic though to support pox which makes you vulnerable.
I am becoming increasingly intrigued into creating a B/u Pox list... we even got that on-color borderpost for it, hmm... I wonder how well Ancestral Vision would work.
Quote from Korsakow[/quote »
Let's call it "Intuition Pox"
I'm rather liking this idea too. Perfect way to take advantage of both a Crucible engine and the lovely Nether Spirit, though I'd be hesitent to combine it with Life from the Loam (especially because I'd rather avoid hampering Nether Spirit if I can). Alright that settles it, I'm going to make a B/u Pox list sometime later this week and try it out.
Before you get all mad at me for calling my Pox Deck Swine Flu, this is a Pox deck in the making where I want to infect people with Pox and Smallpox so they lose life and creatures.
If you have a Problem...oh well I'm cynical, it's a disease that would be bad to have and I don't wish it on anyone.
Few cards that I'm working on getting for this deck:
Pox
Raven's Crime
Crucible of Worlds
The Rack
Undiscovered paradise
Well, it's a decent start, but it has a lot of odd ends and card choices that can be replaced by much better onces. If you want to take advantage of Mind Peel then you definitely should go the Crucible route, and perhaps try to fit in some extra non-land mana sources- Phyrexian Totem is a good one, though of course I'd suggest Mox Diamond foremost but I think that probably exceeds your budget. Right now, your deck has simply way too much focus on discard. What do you do when your opponent is a fast deck and enters top-deck mode on their own relatively quickly and is playing every spell they draw? Suddenly a third your deck is useless, and you only have one maindecked copy of The Rack to take advantage of this situation.
This is for Online Classic, so the card pool is obviously more limited. I found that the GB deck in the original post had too many win conditions, besides the Tempting Wurms being weak in general, so I cut them.
There was more discussion on The Rack a few pages back, but I'll go ahead and throw my two cents in: due to its easy casting cost, it often comes down when you have nothing better to play and either does 3-5 damage or fundamentally alters the way your opponent plays. I often side them out for more match up appropriate cards, but their versitality makes them strong enough for a few main deck slots.
It may be the relatively low aggro level of the online classic format, but I have never had a problem with amount of self-inflicted damage, even with the shocklands instead of duals. I'd say that the Blackmails could therefore probably be the stronger Thoughtseize without a problem, but I don't have the cash to find out at the moment.
I haven't seen Wretched Banquet mentioned yet, but it is very strong removal in a deck with so many sacrifice effects, combined with the fact that all of your own creatures are huge, so the odds of being unable to hit an opponent's creature because of them is low. It lacks the dissynergy with Goyf and Stalker of Spinning Darkness and Ghastly Demise and has the ability to hit opposing Stalkers that Smother lacks.
The list looks pretty good, though I think you will run into some dead ends every now and then by trying to run both 4x Tarmogoyf and 4x Tombstalker; they are somewhat antisynergistic together. For this reason I'd probably try to up Life from the Loam to 3 (more reliable dredging), and replace the Spinning Darknesses in the sideboard, because introducing those too into this slight conundrum will only make your threats that much weaker.
Is Volrath's Stronghold available to your cardpool? I'd definitely suggest that.
Wretched Banquet is certainly an option, in Pox builds that don't run Nether Spirit, and especially in builds where Innocent Blood will likely hit your own creatures too often. Essentially, in a build like yours.
Quote from LastManStanding »
what about building this deck with demi gods?
pitch one to an early small pox, on turn 4 when you have three mana, play a dark ritual and demigod, swing for ten?
The problem here is the same problem as with trying to run the black planeswalker; it's simply too mana intensive. The ideal Pox deck will have a low curve overall, especially among its win conditions, as it intrinsically keeps its own manabase down as well as the opponent's. Forcing yourself to depend on Dark Ritual is, too, arguably inherently a poor decision.
Shell for B/u Pox so far (still adding cards to each category of course):
I appreciate the input, Xanth. I cut a Rack for a Loam for the reasons you mentioned, plus the fact the Loam is ridiculous in this deck, and I wasn't seeing it enough with only two. Volrath's Stronghold looks like it could be fairly strong, particularly with Loam dredging; I'll try and dig up a copy to test with. I swapped the Spinning Darknesses for Smothers.
As you streamline your list, you'll find that when you have five mana to cast Guiltfeeder you're probably losing, besides being extraordinarily antisynnergistic with any graveyard hate you have to side in. The advantage of the aforementioned Tombstalker is that Pox decks fill the graveyard so fast that most of the time it costs only BB by turn three or four. Pestilence is absurd creature control in multiplayer, not so much in this deck, as it costs four and the lifeloss, despite being symmetric, will hurt badly against against the same aggro decks it there to control.
As you streamline your list, you'll find that when you have five mana to cast Guiltfeeder you're probably losing, besides being extraordinarily antisynnergistic with any graveyard hate you have to side in. The advantage of the aforementioned Tombstalker is that Pox decks fill the graveyard so fast that most of the time it costs only BB by turn three or four. Pestilence is absurd creature control in multiplayer, not so much in this deck, as it costs four and the lifeloss, despite being symmetric, will hurt badly against against the same aggro decks it there to control.
agreed. pestilence is not a card for pox. it's a card for pestilence. in a perfect world, you could run both just fine because they look and work in similar ways. the problem w/ pestilence is that by the time you get it online, it's not doing as much as you want it to and and as he said above the extra damage from pestilence will probably be the death of you. i know pox is about taking yourself out while you take the opponent out just a bit quicker, but pestilence just doesn't do that for this deck. if you want a 4cc card that will do what you want pestilence to do, try smokestack. this card plus nether spirit or crucible of worlds will absolutely rock so many opponents.
also i don't understand how anyone can not like tombstalker. it's a 5/5 flyer for BB. how is that not likable? i mean really... it will never ever cost the full eight mana. the most i think i've ever paid for it is probably 2BB. that's pretty good if you ask me. he's the finisher pox was waiting for.
if you want a 4cc card that will do what you want pestilence to do, try smokestack. this card plus nether spirit or crucible of worlds will absolutely rock so many opponents.
also i don't understand how anyone can not like tombstalker. it's a 5/5 flyer for BB. how is that not likable? i mean really... it will never ever cost the full eight mana. the most i think i've ever paid for it is probably 2BB. that's pretty good if you ask me. he's the finisher pox was waiting for.
Does using Smokestack significantly change how you use a Pox deck?
It's rare that I get to play Tombstalker for BB. I often end up playing it for 2BB, which is already a good deal. Previously, large black beaters for 4 mana often had some sort of drawback.
Does using Smokestack significantly change how you use a Pox deck?
It's rare that I get to play Tombstalker for BB. I often end up playing it for 2BB, which is already a good deal. Previously, large black beaters for 4 mana often had some sort of drawback.
i don't personally think it significantly changes how you use a pox deck, but it can change the ultimate goal. for instance, smokestack and the rack don't really get along. however, smokestack and tangle wire get along quite nicely. you may not want to play as much discard if you're running smokestack.
most of the time my soot counters never go above two. even at one it's enough to put a real damper on my opponent's plan. sometimes two is better depending on what kind of board position they have. it's rare that smokestack actually has much of a negative effect on me and when it's done it's job and cleared my opponent's board, i just sac the smokestack to itself.
smokestack has crazy synergy w/ cards like crucible of worlds and nether spirit. if you can manage to get spirit, smokestack on one, crucible, and wasteland in play, their board can become empty w/ a quickness. that's what i love about the pox deck... it's like you're the carrier monkey. you're have this pox disease and you're spreading it and it's killing, but it never really has an effect on you. good times.
Smokestack is apparently good but it never worked that well for me. The time taken to do anything with it when you are not running ancient tombs/CoT and have to wait for your upkeep to put a counter on makes it a bit slow. I think you need a mana denial focus to make it work.
i don't think you necessarily need a mana denial focus. you don't have to see smokestack to win, and you certainly don't need to accelerate into it w/ ancient tomb and city of traitors. the card doesn't even have to come down on turn four. pox is usually in it for the long game, so as long as your deck is doing it's job, any time you drop smokestack should be pretty bad for the opponent. even if it doesn't affect the game state the turn it comes into play. i've had no problems w/ it in my build. in fact, it's been outstanding for me.
but everyone has different preferences, so to each their own.
The main problem I have faced with Smokestack is that, unlike almost the entire rest of the deck, it does not provide immediate control results, we can't power into an early one asap, and it costs more than both Smallpox and Pox- which means that most game scenarios, you will be casting Smallpox/Pox before a Smokestack, and doing so will again make it harder for you to cast Smokestack. I don't think anything should exceed three mana in a Pox deck, ideally. Limiting yourself to 3 lands in play is often a good choice, because once you've played a 4th, you're now sacrificing two lands to your resolved Poxes. If I were running Smokestack, I would feel very much required to also run Dark Ritual, and this generates a multitude of problems- Dark Ritual is card disadvantage, and Smokestack generates no immediate effect. Running 3-4 of each of these spells in your deck gives you that many more weaker deck spots.
Pox can't afford the life loss of Ancient Tomb very well at all, but City of Traitors might be an option, as long as it is coupled with Crucible of Worlds. But unlike Stax, Pox cannot function on a turn 1-2 City + Mox Diamond- it would need to resolve an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth before the City to ever be able to reliably cast Hymn/Smallpox/Pox without suffering the large disadvantage of City.
That being said, City of Traitors couples rather nicely with Smallpox/Pox effects- you simply sacrifice the City to the effect, then play your land. Unfortunately, unless you have an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out, you will not be able to use the City to help you cast either of these spells (which then beg the question, why not just run a Swamp over the City), and this nice interaction becomes rather moot. Ultimately, I think it is too much of a gamble, and City of Traitors is simply too useless in a build that has many :symb::symb: and :symb::symb::symb: spells.
I find Lifting Refrain rather sucky, Veiled Crocodile is cute but ultimately uneeded, Jace Beleren has potential but I abhor the :symu::symu:, Propaganda is a definite inclusion, Brainstorm gets a definite no from me as we'll often be down to 0-1 cards in hand anyways and won't be able to really take advantage of it with shuffle effects, and I absolutely do not want to run Counterbalance, for both the :symu::symu: and the need to also include Sensei's Divining Top.
I actually run a poxless pox build which I guess is more of an MBC build that I've been tweaking for ages. One somewhat interesting critter that I've come across is Nihilith.
Because his ability says you 'may' remove a time counter when a card goes into the opponents graveyard, you can keep it suspended until after a pox or smallpox has forced creature sacrifice, and of course suspended creatures come into play with haste so that he gets moving immediately. Fear is also a nice way to (almost) guarantee a clock.
In a pox build he comes out really quick and is invulnerable to removal until he comes into play, by which time a successful strategy will have most of the opponents resources decimated. Obviously not a must-have card by any means but I thought I'd mention it anyways.
Thoughts?
Edit: I did of course fail to mention that I'm aware that a turn 2 nihilith prohibits a turn 2 smallpox or hymn to tourach, however I've also come to find that playing him (which can't be countered when suspended, only when coming into play if I'm not mistaken) on turn 2 and then a land turn 3 allows my 2-drops to actually land as opposed to hitting an early daze. Anyways, just a thought.
In other news, crazy nitwits playing dress-up have also convicted the Hamburglar, the Cookie Crisp Crook, and the Frito Bandito of sundry snack-related thefts.
Seriously, what about this strikes you as remotely worthy of discussion?
Carnifex, (like the name by the way) you have hinted at some of the problems with Nihilith already. While he is a decent option if you can't afford beaters like Tombstalker, or if you expect to face Leyline of the Void in every opponent's sideboard, there are several things that decrease his appeal:
-:1mana::symb: investment for a much later yield. First things first, you have to suspend him. Problem is, suspending him early takes up your turn. And provides you with nothing. You must wait several turns thereafter for him to present himself as a threat.
-You give your opponent intel on a card and give them time to respond to it. Unsuspending cards can be countered. Your opponent can fish for an answer while he's RFG'ed and waiting to show up. Counterspells, removal, black/artifact blockers, etc.
-Where does he fit, and what does he replace? For me, I'd be comparing him to the spot of Tombstalker. Tombstalker does slightly more damage and has an arguably better evasion (and can stop enemy Exalted Angels), and enemy Tombstalkers ironically eat Nihiliths for breakfast. Anyway a heavy factor here is your deck's play-style. Can you afford to spend :1mana::symb: early in the game? If not, and if you're going to argue that you'd often spend it towards mid/late game, then consider this- if you are in mid-late game and spending :1mana::symb: to suspend a 4/4 fear, would you not rather spend :symb::symb: (and possibly more) to immediately cast a 5/5 flying demon?
I suppose though that another way to look at it is to run both Tombstalker and Nihilith, which seems more fitting for a MBC build like yours that does not run Pox (you're breaking my heart, Carnifex :().
You're very much welcome Feel free to ask any questions you like about the archetype and I will answer them to the best of my ability (as will others I hope :p).
It's basically a question of acheiving the optimal balance between consistency, redundancy and flexibility. Pox and Smallpox is the core - they attack almost all deck types (except dredge), by attacking from so many angles. Most other cards are more or less narrow and risk being dead in some MUs. As with all decks, we should devote some slots MD and some slots SB for aggro, combo, control etc. to complement the pox-effects.
But the flexibility comes at the cost of either lacking consistency or excessive redundancy. Take something like Siphon Life - an excellent card. But if run as a 1-of, we can't count on it in the MUs where we need it, such as burn. In fact, we may have to devote 3 slots to hope for any sort of game 1 consistency. But then the problem becomes redundancy - once we have a copy in hand/grave, the others are pretty useless. And what's more, other retrace spells are less attractive too. My guess/rule of thumb would be to include at least 2 copies MD of a retrace spell, with 1-2 extra in the side for certain MUs, and no more than 4 retrace spells total in the main.
Then there are the static effects like Crucible or Contamination. I think Legacy deck building in general has shown us that 3 is the right number for such effects, unless you run tutors or heavy draw. That gives you a reasonable chance to get one each game, a reasonable chance to replace a destroyed copy in a long game, and a reasonable chance to avoid drawing multiple "dead" copies.
I think part of the solution to this problem is looking at each card in your pox list and consider interactions and multi-purpose applications. Especially win conditions. For example, comparing The Rack with Cursed Scroll, CS is more multi-purpose since it also kills threats or utility creatures like confidant (and doesn't rely on opponent's hand size). Comparing Tomb of Urami and Tombstalker as finishers, Urami is clearly more multi-purpose since it can also produce mana in the early-mid game. That doesn't mean that a swiss army knife always beats an assault rifle, but the core of pox lies in having efficient cards that do many things IMO.
One must also consider interactions. For example, if we look again at Tombstalker vs. Urami as a finisher, adding Crucible to the mix tips the scales further towards Urami. Most of these interactions (like Bitterblossom being better with Contamination etc) are covered in the primer though, so I won't repeat it here.
Waddjathink about this? Have you had the same experiences? I'd like to optimize and streamline a non-budget pox list once the game plans against different deck types are clear to me.
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
About splashes... what have you found? Green and white seems most promising. What's in it for the mono black version?
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
Currently Playing:
Retired
also if budget not an issue, mox diamond > dark ritual. doesn't kill by pox, provide you with mana to keep the tempo going after pox. just watch out for EE.
Like anime? My AnimeList Profile: zero_99
You can find me on MODO ID: 07Ghost
20 Swamp
Creatures(9)
4 Ravenous Rats
2 Augur of Skulls
2 Abyssal Specter
1 Guiltfeeder
Spells(30)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Mind Peel
4 Ostracize
3 Distress
3 Unburden
2 Skull Fracture
2 Megrim
2 Pestilence
1 Raven's Crime
1 Thoughtseize
1 The Rack
2 Abyssal Specter
2 Bottomless Pit
1 Decree of Pain
2 Diabolic Tutor
4 Mind Rot
1 Mortivore
2 Plague Wind
1 Swamp
If you have a Problem...oh well I'm cynical, it's a disease that would be bad to have and I don't wish it on anyone.
Few cards that I'm working on getting for this deck:
Pox
Raven's Crime
Crucible of Worlds
The Rack
Undiscovered paradise
And some others.
please Rate and give me some input.
Next week Friday When I get payed I'm getting Pox, Raven's Crime, and Crucible of Worlds
WUGGaea's BlessingGUW
GFood Chain ElvesG
RLegacy GoblinsR
WBAngelBW
UStasisU
RBurnR
WBGFalse CureGBW
BMono Black Token DeckB
WBGSaproling Token DeckGBW
WURThopterRUW
GElf Token DeckG
WUBird Soldier DeckUW
BZombiesB
RkoboldsR
GSquirrelG
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
3 The Rack
19 Disruption:
4 Duress
2 Blackmail
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
1 Raven's Crime
2 Life From the Loam
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Diabolic Edict
24 Land:
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
6 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Tomb of Urami
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Wretched Banquet
2 Spinning Darkness
2 Blackmail
3 Krosan Grip
4 Graveyard hate that should be Leyline
There was more discussion on The Rack a few pages back, but I'll go ahead and throw my two cents in: due to its easy casting cost, it often comes down when you have nothing better to play and either does 3-5 damage or fundamentally alters the way your opponent plays. I often side them out for more match up appropriate cards, but their versitality makes them strong enough for a few main deck slots.
It may be the relatively low aggro level of the online classic format, but I have never had a problem with amount of self-inflicted damage, even with the shocklands instead of duals. I'd say that the Blackmails could therefore probably be the stronger Thoughtseize without a problem, but I don't have the cash to find out at the moment.
I haven't seen Wretched Banquet mentioned yet, but it is very strong removal in a deck with so many sacrifice effects, combined with the fact that all of your own creatures are huge, so the odds of being unable to hit an opponent's creature because of them is low. It lacks the dissynergy with Goyf and Stalker of Spinning Darkness and Ghastly Demise and has the ability to hit opposing Stalkers that Smother lacks.
On your Wretched Banquet I could have bought 4 of them today for $0.50 but I opted not to, I would much rater play Innocent Blood
WUGGaea's BlessingGUW
GFood Chain ElvesG
RLegacy GoblinsR
WBAngelBW
UStasisU
RBurnR
WBGFalse CureGBW
BMono Black Token DeckB
WBGSaproling Token DeckGBW
WURThopterRUW
GElf Token DeckG
WUBird Soldier DeckUW
BZombiesB
RkoboldsR
GSquirrelG
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
Yeah I like innocent blood more than wretched banquet if you have nether spirit out wretched banquet seems like a terrible topdeck unless you're facing a bob in aggro loam. Even then, innocent blood is good because you can swing then sack your nether spirit and return it next turn with it's useful ability
Currently Playing:
Retired
pitch one to an early small pox, on turn 4 when you have three mana, play a dark ritual and demigod, swing for ten?
Thanks Darth Monkey
I agree with no more than 4ish retrace spells per deck, but a 1-of of Siphon Life is most certainly not a bad thing maindeck. Don't count on drawing it when you need to, because you're only running one, but use it as a splendid element of surprise and a late game turn-around. It's very design promotes its efficiency much later in the game anyways; you only want to increase your consistency of drawing it if you're facing a fast clock presented by threats that you cannot really answer with Smallpox/Pox (burn).
Three is the right number for a 3-mana permanent that you want to resolve after or in relation to other key aspects of the deck. But this is hardly an ultimatum- every candidate deserves playtesting to determine how many copies of each you want to run, and much is of course dependant on your metagame (4 Crucible of Worlds vs. 3 maindeck in a metagame where you expect TONS of nonbasic land hate for example).
While versatility in a card is always welcomed and often integral to an efficient deck, there again is no real ultimatum for a given card or type of card here- each of these cards you've referenced is, as you initially say, very dependant on the rest of the deck. I'll go into detail for each: Anyway, I get the notion a bit that you're trying to classify different types of cards into "ways to play with them" in an effort to select what is good for the typical Pox deck. I think I might be misunderstanding you though, and perhaps my point is simply reinforcing your own intended point. The point I want to make is that there are many different successful Pox archetypes, and each one uses a given card differently. You can't really collect it all into one consensus and assign it governing regulations on efficiency, as Pox is such a diverse archetype (gosh I love Pox :D).
I am becoming increasingly intrigued into creating a B/u Pox list... we even got that on-color borderpost for it, hmm... I wonder how well Ancestral Vision would work.
I'm rather liking this idea too. Perfect way to take advantage of both a Crucible engine and the lovely Nether Spirit, though I'd be hesitent to combine it with Life from the Loam (especially because I'd rather avoid hampering Nether Spirit if I can). Alright that settles it, I'm going to make a B/u Pox list sometime later this week and try it out.
Well, it's a decent start, but it has a lot of odd ends and card choices that can be replaced by much better onces. If you want to take advantage of Mind Peel then you definitely should go the Crucible route, and perhaps try to fit in some extra non-land mana sources- Phyrexian Totem is a good one, though of course I'd suggest Mox Diamond foremost but I think that probably exceeds your budget. Right now, your deck has simply way too much focus on discard. What do you do when your opponent is a fast deck and enters top-deck mode on their own relatively quickly and is playing every spell they draw? Suddenly a third your deck is useless, and you only have one maindecked copy of The Rack to take advantage of this situation.
Why no Tombstalkers? Hymn to Tourachs?
The list looks pretty good, though I think you will run into some dead ends every now and then by trying to run both 4x Tarmogoyf and 4x Tombstalker; they are somewhat antisynergistic together. For this reason I'd probably try to up Life from the Loam to 3 (more reliable dredging), and replace the Spinning Darknesses in the sideboard, because introducing those too into this slight conundrum will only make your threats that much weaker.
Is Volrath's Stronghold available to your cardpool? I'd definitely suggest that.
Wretched Banquet is certainly an option, in Pox builds that don't run Nether Spirit, and especially in builds where Innocent Blood will likely hit your own creatures too often. Essentially, in a build like yours.
The problem here is the same problem as with trying to run the black planeswalker; it's simply too mana intensive. The ideal Pox deck will have a low curve overall, especially among its win conditions, as it intrinsically keeps its own manabase down as well as the opponent's. Forcing yourself to depend on Dark Ritual is, too, arguably inherently a poor decision.
Shell for B/u Pox so far (still adding cards to each category of course):
I don't really like the tombstalker card, I know that it's nice I just don't want to use it.
What do you guys think about keeping the Guiltfeeder and Pestilence?
Guiltfeeder is a nice creature to do a lot of damage especially if you can destroy their creatures with pestilence and then attack.
Pestilence is my destroy creature card right now.
It's not much but it's a start.
THANKS IN ADVANCE!!!
WUGGaea's BlessingGUW
GFood Chain ElvesG
RLegacy GoblinsR
WBAngelBW
UStasisU
RBurnR
WBGFalse CureGBW
BMono Black Token DeckB
WBGSaproling Token DeckGBW
WURThopterRUW
GElf Token DeckG
WUBird Soldier DeckUW
BZombiesB
RkoboldsR
GSquirrelG
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
What do you guys think about keeping the Guiltfeeder and Pestilence?
As you streamline your list, you'll find that when you have five mana to cast Guiltfeeder you're probably losing, besides being extraordinarily antisynnergistic with any graveyard hate you have to side in. The advantage of the aforementioned Tombstalker is that Pox decks fill the graveyard so fast that most of the time it costs only BB by turn three or four. Pestilence is absurd creature control in multiplayer, not so much in this deck, as it costs four and the lifeloss, despite being symmetric, will hurt badly against against the same aggro decks it there to control.
agreed. pestilence is not a card for pox. it's a card for pestilence. in a perfect world, you could run both just fine because they look and work in similar ways. the problem w/ pestilence is that by the time you get it online, it's not doing as much as you want it to and and as he said above the extra damage from pestilence will probably be the death of you. i know pox is about taking yourself out while you take the opponent out just a bit quicker, but pestilence just doesn't do that for this deck. if you want a 4cc card that will do what you want pestilence to do, try smokestack. this card plus nether spirit or crucible of worlds will absolutely rock so many opponents.
also i don't understand how anyone can not like tombstalker. it's a 5/5 flyer for BB. how is that not likable? i mean really... it will never ever cost the full eight mana. the most i think i've ever paid for it is probably 2BB. that's pretty good if you ask me. he's the finisher pox was waiting for.
calibretto
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Does using Smokestack significantly change how you use a Pox deck?
It's rare that I get to play Tombstalker for BB. I often end up playing it for 2BB, which is already a good deal. Previously, large black beaters for 4 mana often had some sort of drawback.
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
i don't personally think it significantly changes how you use a pox deck, but it can change the ultimate goal. for instance, smokestack and the rack don't really get along. however, smokestack and tangle wire get along quite nicely. you may not want to play as much discard if you're running smokestack.
most of the time my soot counters never go above two. even at one it's enough to put a real damper on my opponent's plan. sometimes two is better depending on what kind of board position they have. it's rare that smokestack actually has much of a negative effect on me and when it's done it's job and cleared my opponent's board, i just sac the smokestack to itself.
i've loved the card since it debuted. i used to run it in a mono green deck that used umbilicus, deranged hermit, land destruction like winter's grasp, creeping mold, and the amazing plow under. i miss that deck.
but i digress...
smokestack has crazy synergy w/ cards like crucible of worlds and nether spirit. if you can manage to get spirit, smokestack on one, crucible, and wasteland in play, their board can become empty w/ a quickness. that's what i love about the pox deck... it's like you're the carrier monkey. you're have this pox disease and you're spreading it and it's killing, but it never really has an effect on you. good times.
calibretto
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
i don't think you necessarily need a mana denial focus. you don't have to see smokestack to win, and you certainly don't need to accelerate into it w/ ancient tomb and city of traitors. the card doesn't even have to come down on turn four. pox is usually in it for the long game, so as long as your deck is doing it's job, any time you drop smokestack should be pretty bad for the opponent. even if it doesn't affect the game state the turn it comes into play. i've had no problems w/ it in my build. in fact, it's been outstanding for me.
but everyone has different preferences, so to each their own.
calibretto
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Pox can't afford the life loss of Ancient Tomb very well at all, but City of Traitors might be an option, as long as it is coupled with Crucible of Worlds. But unlike Stax, Pox cannot function on a turn 1-2 City + Mox Diamond- it would need to resolve an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth before the City to ever be able to reliably cast Hymn/Smallpox/Pox without suffering the large disadvantage of City.
That being said, City of Traitors couples rather nicely with Smallpox/Pox effects- you simply sacrifice the City to the effect, then play your land. Unfortunately, unless you have an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out, you will not be able to use the City to help you cast either of these spells (which then beg the question, why not just run a Swamp over the City), and this nice interaction becomes rather moot. Ultimately, I think it is too much of a gamble, and City of Traitors is simply too useless in a build that has many :symb::symb: and :symb::symb::symb: spells.
I find Lifting Refrain rather sucky, Veiled Crocodile is cute but ultimately uneeded, Jace Beleren has potential but I abhor the :symu::symu:, Propaganda is a definite inclusion, Brainstorm gets a definite no from me as we'll often be down to 0-1 cards in hand anyways and won't be able to really take advantage of it with shuffle effects, and I absolutely do not want to run Counterbalance, for both the :symu::symu: and the need to also include Sensei's Divining Top.
Because his ability says you 'may' remove a time counter when a card goes into the opponents graveyard, you can keep it suspended until after a pox or smallpox has forced creature sacrifice, and of course suspended creatures come into play with haste so that he gets moving immediately. Fear is also a nice way to (almost) guarantee a clock.
In a pox build he comes out really quick and is invulnerable to removal until he comes into play, by which time a successful strategy will have most of the opponents resources decimated. Obviously not a must-have card by any means but I thought I'd mention it anyways.
Thoughts?
Edit: I did of course fail to mention that I'm aware that a turn 2 nihilith prohibits a turn 2 smallpox or hymn to tourach, however I've also come to find that playing him (which can't be countered when suspended, only when coming into play if I'm not mistaken) on turn 2 and then a land turn 3 allows my 2-drops to actually land as opposed to hitting an early daze. Anyways, just a thought.
BW(G) Junkblade - Legacy
BW Vial Deadguy - Legacy
UWR Geist - Modern
UR(B) Delver - Modern
W(G) Death & Taxes - Modern
Oona, Queen of the Fae - EDH
-:1mana::symb: investment for a much later yield. First things first, you have to suspend him. Problem is, suspending him early takes up your turn. And provides you with nothing. You must wait several turns thereafter for him to present himself as a threat.
-You give your opponent intel on a card and give them time to respond to it. Unsuspending cards can be countered. Your opponent can fish for an answer while he's RFG'ed and waiting to show up. Counterspells, removal, black/artifact blockers, etc.
-Where does he fit, and what does he replace? For me, I'd be comparing him to the spot of Tombstalker. Tombstalker does slightly more damage and has an arguably better evasion (and can stop enemy Exalted Angels), and enemy Tombstalkers ironically eat Nihiliths for breakfast. Anyway a heavy factor here is your deck's play-style. Can you afford to spend :1mana::symb: early in the game? If not, and if you're going to argue that you'd often spend it towards mid/late game, then consider this- if you are in mid-late game and spending :1mana::symb: to suspend a 4/4 fear, would you not rather spend :symb::symb: (and possibly more) to immediately cast a 5/5 flying demon?
I suppose though that another way to look at it is to run both Tombstalker and Nihilith, which seems more fitting for a MBC build like yours that does not run Pox (you're breaking my heart, Carnifex :().