I know that Tombstalker isn't very compatable with Crucible of Worlds but with all the discard effects of pox/smallpox and the synergy that Tanglewire has with Chimeric Idol I feel it works. I'm not a big fan of Nether Spirit just for the fact that if I have to discard a Tombstalker I don't want him to be a dead card. Any thoughts?
Why the lone Sensei's Divining Top? You have no way to shuffle your deck or really taking advantage of it.
I think you should reconsider Nether Spirit as a 1-of or 2-of. Discarding a Spirit to an early Smallpox/Pox is a wonderful play. If you get a Spirit and a Tombstalker in the 'yard, you can Delve out that Tombstalker by casting a 2nd, etc. Or you can get that first Tombstalker out of your 'yard with Volrath's Stronghold. You should take a look at my Crucible Pox list in the primer for several nonbasic land ideas that are ideal with Crucible of Worlds.
If nothing else, you might want to consider replacing a few swamps with 1-3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoths. Helps you get more black mana sources out of your Wastelands, especially when you're facing an opponent that isn't playing any/many nonbasic lands. Also allows for a surprise alphastrike by swampwalking a Tombstalker/Idol for the win via Funeral Charm.
Why the lone Sensei's Divining Top? You have no way to shuffle your deck or really taking advantage of it.
I think you should reconsider Nether Spirit as a 1-of or 2-of. Discarding a Spirit to an early Smallpox/Pox is a wonderful play. If you get a Spirit and a Tombstalker in the 'yard, you can Delve out that Tombstalker by casting a 2nd, etc. Or you can get that first Tombstalker out of your 'yard with Volrath's Stronghold. You should take a look at my Crucible Pox list in the primer for several nonbasic land ideas that are ideal with Crucible of Worlds.
If nothing else, you might want to consider replacing a few swamps with 1-3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoths. Helps you get more black mana sources out of your Wastelands, especially when you're facing an opponent that isn't playing any/many nonbasic lands. Also allows for a surprise alphastrike by swampwalking a Tombstalker/Idol for the win via Funeral Charm.
I am looking to add some Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoths to my deck but I'm actually not worried about Tangle Wire at all. Lets say I play it 4th turn (Which is as early as I could play it). My opponent has to tap down 4 artifacts/creatures/lands. On my turn I stack my upkeep as such:
Remove Fade Counter from Tangle Wire
Tap for Tangle Wire
That means I'll need to tap 3. I will of course tap Tangle Wire meaning I will only need to tap two lands. If I have a crucible out I only need to tap 1. Rack isn't a good idea with my mana denial strategy as it doesn't play well with tangle wire or Wasteland. Also Cursed Scroll isn't helpfull because it doesn't help my Chimeric Idols.
As for the top I just have it to fix draws. I am thinking about adding 4x Polluted Delta to shuffle and also thin the deck. It works very well with Crucible and also works great with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
Edit: Also as for freeing up 'vital lands' isn't really a problem for this deck. The highest mana cost in the deck is Tangle Wire at 4 (Not counting Tombstalkers printed cost of course). The only cards I couldn't cast 4th turn with 4 lands out, 2 of which tapped to Tangle Wire would be:
1. Pox, which I wouldn't cast anyway because I would need to sac two lands
2. Chimeric Idol
3. Crucible
Everything else in the deck can be played with BB and again that's only 1 turn I couldn't cast that. Tangle Wire is excellent because you tap 2/1 permanents (Since Tangle Wire doesn't count) and your opponent has to tap 4/3/2/1
At least that's why I'm playing it. Being able to stack your upkeep correctly is key, you always say "I'll put tapping down to Tangle Wire on the stack, THEN I will put fading on the stack" that way you tap the fewest permanents you can
I'm thinking of building a BG Pox deck, including Maelstrom Pulse. Getting rid of enchantments and artifacts seems like a good deal to me, and the echoing effect is a nice bonus. Pox and Smallpox should already take care of lands, so it not being Vindicate shouldn't be much of a problem.
I know that Tombstalker isn't very compatable with Crucible of Worlds but with all the discard effects of pox/smallpox and the synergy that Tanglewire has with Chimeric Idol I feel it works. I'm not a big fan of Nether Spirit just for the fact that if I have to discard a Tombstalker I don't want him to be a dead card. Any thoughts?
i run two tombstalker alongside two nether spirit. they serve two very different functions while both ultimately working toward the same goal - getting the opponent to zero life. a two/two split seems to work fine for me. i can only think of one instance that i got screwed by having both guys in the 'yard at the same time. tombstalker is not the same here as it is in something like mba or eva green. you're not trying to drop him on the table asap. granted, an early 'stalker can win you a few games here and there, but for the most part you want to spend the early turns disrupting your opponent as much as possible. so much so that, by the time your opponent would normally be able to answer both threats in a single turn, it's too late for them. i try not to put both of them on the table at the same time if i can help it, unless it's highly unlikely that my opponent will recover and throw a wrath effect my way.
and on the subject of tombstalker not being synergistic w/ crucible... i've never had a problem there either. when i'm removing cards for his delve ability i try to only remove the stuff that i'm sure i can live without. (ie: anything that's not lands) and if i must remove lands, i see no problems w/ removing swamps, but try not to get rid of wastelands. a crucible/wasteland soft lock can be game winning. this is another instance where it just simply shouldn't matter. by the time you drop the fatness, removing a few lands from the 'yard really shouldn't affect you that much. at this point in the game missing a land drop (even one from the graveyard) shouldn't be that big of a deal.
Here are some updates to the list given some input I've received. I took out 1 Raven's Crime and 1 Chimeric Idol in favor of 2 Nether Spirits. Now that I added the polluted delta's to thin out the deck I took out the Raven's Crime because I don't feel I'll have as many lands to draw later in the game. Since I wanted the 'free' Nether Spirit I decided to cut one Idol. Innocent blood is still a good call with Nether Spirit and I wanted to make sure I have 8+ turn 1 answers to Lacky and other x/1 creatures.
I've also added 4 Polluted Deltas and 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth I'm a little worried about life loss form the Delta but with 3 copies of Urborg I feel that if nothing else they can be used as swamps if need be.
I still feel that Rack/Cursed Scroll aren't good options for my build of this deck due to the mana denial/Chimeric Idol options.
EDIT: Question, if Urborg is in play can I sac polluted delta to search for Wasteland since all lands are swamps? That would be pretty awesome.
Here are some updates to the list given some input I've received. I took out 1 Raven's Crime and 1 Chimeric Idol in favor of 2 Nether Spirits. Now that I added the polluted delta's to thin out the deck I took out the Raven's Crime because I don't feel I'll have as many lands to draw later in the game. Since I wanted the 'free' Nether Spirit I decided to cut one Idol. Innocent blood is still a good call with Nether Spirit and I wanted to make sure I have 8+ turn 1 answers to Lacky and other x/1 creatures.
I've also added 4 Polluted Deltas and 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth I'm a little worried about life loss form the Delta but with 3 copies of Urborg I feel that if nothing else they can be used as swamps if need be.
I still feel that Rack/Cursed Scroll aren't good options for my build of this deck due to the mana denial/Chimeric Idol options.
EDIT: Question, if Urborg is in play can I sac polluted delta to search for Wasteland since all lands are swamps? That would be pretty awesome.
i'm pretty sure the lands have to be in play before urborg counts them as swamps.
as a side note that's completely unrelated... i hate that they named that land urborg, tomb of yawgmoth when there was already a land named urborg. that's kinda unoriginal if you ask me. and can sometimes be confusing. more often than not if someone says "you should put a couple urborg's in your deck." they mean tomb of yawgmoth, but you never know. /rant
on another note that's kind of related, i'm actually thinking of removing cursed scroll from my list all together. it's an amazing card and i love me some colorless damage, but it's almost horrible in the first few turns and that seems to be when i see it. it seems to do a lot less than it should. by the time the game gets to a point where cursed scroll should be useful, i've got a fat tombstalker on the table doing all the work for the scroll. i was thinking of taking it out and replacing it with chimeric idol. it's still colorless damage, just not so direct.
i'm pretty sure the lands have to be in play before urborg counts them as swamps.
as a side note that's completely unrelated... i hate that they named that land urborg, tomb of yawgmoth when there was already a land named urborg. that's kinda unoriginal if you ask me. and can sometimes be confusing. more often than not if someone says "you should put a couple urborg's in your deck." they mean tomb of yawgmoth, but you never know. /rant
on another note that's kind of related, i'm actually thinking of removing cursed scroll from my list all together. it's an amazing card and i love me some colorless damage, but it's almost horrible in the first few turns and that seems to be when i see it. it seems to do a lot less than it should. by the time the game gets to a point where cursed scroll should be useful, i've got a fat tombstalker on the table doing all the work for the scroll. i was thinking of taking it out and replacing it with chimeric idol. it's still colorless damage, just not so direct.
calibretto
The best part about idol is there isn't any reason to have your lands untapped at the end of your turn. You have exactly 4 instants the deck (Funeral Charm) so unless you want to 'bluff' having untapped lands isn't helping your strategy. Also I'm sure there will be many times that you don't have a card in hand to use Scroll since there are so many two sided discard outlets in your deck. Also Idol is great if you run into any black deck playing innocent blood or edict since you can use your idol to save your tombstalker
Yeah I really like idol in this deck...this deck really doesn't have that much instant speed shenanigans going on except with funeral charm on their lackey or something important with 1 toughness
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i like idol a lot. i had it in my list once before, but took it out. i also used to run tangle wire and my deck used to be b/w. when i decided to take out white, i decided to just start from scratch and build mono black pox and i came up w/ something fairly close to what i listed above.
i would love to see something come along that trumps idol, but for now i think that's the best we got when looking for a creature that's immune to pox - pun intended.
It appears that I have most of the core cards to switch over to Pox, and a Legacy-playing acquaintance has been persuading me to give Pox a go as it is apparently superior to other forms of MBC. However, I would like a detailed explanation as to why this is the case.
I understand that while MBC decks such as the one above play quite reactively, Pox is a little more proactive in that it actively pushes the opponent behind through being forced to sacrifice things all the time while offsetting your own losses, and then using the beaters to exploit the disparity in resources.
Outside of that, I don't really know how to compare the two for overall effectiveness against a variety of matchups, and draw a conclusion as to whether to switch to Pox.
Sure it does... it tells you that you should splash green and go Trainwreck
Well yes, but it doesn't tell me what Trainwreck is, nor does it give any reasons why it is 'better'. It's about as bad as people making one card name suggestions without anything else to back it (which attracts warnings and infractions around here).
One change I am considering is exchanging 8 Swamps for 4 Veinfire Borderpost and 4 Mistvein Borderpost. I have tested this and it works way better than you would think, nothing better than playing Pox and automatically keeping a few mana producers in addition to the lands you don't sacrifice.
But the borderpost hinders your speed a lot...against combo, that's bad you want a turn 1 duress versus combo and with only 14 lands to return to hand it's kind of risky because you need to return a basic land to hand to play the borderpost turn 1 or two (hardcasting a borderpost is strictly forbidden if you do that you could be casting a pox, smallpox, duress, or anything in the deck save tangle wire). But test away with it; give me your thoughts on the borderposts but I would suggest splashing red for blightning then since it's a pretty good card.
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I've been exploring a combination of Contamination pox and Crucible pox. The idea is to get lots of mana denial in a mono-black package, and Contamination works as an Urborg-ToY for your colorless lands too. Tell me what you think!
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@jwai
Sorry if my answer wasn't satisfying ;-)
King Canute and Naz nearly said what I wanted to tell you.
THe core of POX decks are symmetric effects, you disrupt the openment and yourself as well. POX recovers faster from this disruption and/or runs creatures that are not affected by this symmetric spells. Cabal Coffers are a no go in POX, because normaly you won't play more then 3 Lands. ( In fact you don't need more)
You posted a complete different deck, that has not a lot in common with POX-Builds.
Of course the decks are different. I was looking for an explanation as to why Pox is apparently 'better' than classical versions of MBC.
Pox is not better than MBC. It does better against some kind of decks, especialy against manadenial. MBC has a hard time with that, Pox not and because a lot of decks in the current metagame run some kind of manadenial, Pox is perhaps the better choice.
2cent
Ah, I see. Not that it makes my deck making decisions any more straightforward, but thanks for the tip.
I must say however, Pernicious Deed in Train Wreck does look good for addressing MBC's inherent weakness against artifacts and enchantments. Not to mention that by delegating the sweeps to Deed, it frees up a lot of slots to focus on other wincons.
I wonder if Canute is going to further elaborate like he said he would.
EDIT: I've been goldfishing Pox using Apprentice, and I must say, it's a really bizarre deck to figure out.
Of course the decks are different. I was looking for an explanation as to why Pox is apparently 'better' than classical versions of MBC.
The reason why I feel pox is 'better' than classic MBC is easy: Pox/Small Pox. For a small investment you get such a powerful effect. How many other 2 casting cost spells disrupt hand/mana/creatures? The whole point of Pox is learning when to use the pox spells where you can maximize the loss to your opponent while disrupting yourself the least possible amount.
Being able to pox while you have 3 lands and have not yet dropped a land this turn and your opponent has 4 will net one land versus your opponent. Since you're the one being proactive with pox you can use it to maximum effect.
Another example is lets say you have your oppoent with 3 creatures and you have an innocent blood and pox in your hand. The good play would probably be to play innocent blood and then Pox since even if you play Pox first your opponent still only has to sac one creature to pox (Depending on your hand position of course)
Pox is powerful because of the pox effects and knowing when to play them. It will almost always give you an advantage (especially if you're playing Crucible of Worlds) since your deck is made to abuse pox (Nether Spirit, Chimeric Idol etc) and your opponent's deck is not.
@Urdjur
I realy like Contamination, but i don't know if it fit's in this list. What do you want to do? Put up a Contamination lock or disrupt your oponement? It seems to be some kind of hybrid-plan. What are you doing against B-decks?
In my experience Contamination is fine as some SB-tech. A nasty surprise for your adversery.
And btw. 20 Lands are not enough to support Mox Diamond, there should be at least 24 or even 26.
If you want manadenial I would try Sinkhole. On the play Land/Mox Diamond --> Hymn or on the draw Land/Mox Diamond --> Sinkhole or Smallpox are very strong moves.
Thanks for the input. This is my first Pox build, but the two lists that appealed to me in the first post was the contamination and crucible ones. Black decks (there are few, competitively) will be immune to Contamination, but none of the disruption pieces will hit all decks. I'm trying to create a hybrid list oriented on mana denial, but perhaps a discard/rack combination would be better?
I could easily drop some hand disruption. The reason for Duress is to handle outs to mana denial by LD, for instance Aether Vial, moxen or acceleration like Seething Song and Dark Ritual. It's also good against combo game 1. I'm not sure Sinkhole would actually do the job of preventing spells to be played better.
Funeral Charm could most likely be cut - I intended it mostly as an answer to t1 Lackey, but goblins see less and less play, and Mox Diamond + Smallpox is an answer, with Innocent Blood coming in from the board. I'm primarily thinking:
+4 Lands (manlands mostly - these also help against lackey)
-4 Funeral Charm
and maybe
-4 Duress
+4 Sinkhole
though this risks defeating its own purpose.
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EDIT: I've been goldfishing Pox using Apprentice, and I must say, it's a really bizarre deck to figure out.
Feel free to provide any in-game scenarios with Pox that you are not sure how to handle and I will answer and critique them to the best of my ability.
I like your list, urdjur, much more so after your recent modifications. Perhaps the 4 land you introduce can be Mishra's Factorys? Allows another way for you to feed your Contamination lock (accompanied with Crucible of course).
Note: Contamination does not let you override the damage you take when tapping Tomb of Urami or Cabal Pit for mana.
You are of course not taking advantage of The Rack, so mana denial is your main focus. I think Sinkhole will work rather well for you.
You run zero Tombstalkers, so I would definitely consider Spinning Darkness a high candidate for sideboard material, much more so than Powder Keg (which eats your Mox Diamonds and Bitterblossom tokens).
I'd up your Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to 3 count, as, even though Contamination makes all your lands tap for black, with the introduction of Sinkhole you will be running twelve cards that cost :symb::symb:, and you need to hit that reliably.
Xanth: I like most of your suggestions. I agree that Powder Keg could be synergistic, but I included it mostly so the Ichorid MU wouldn't be a total fold. Though perhaps more narrow in some ways (but not in others) I think Leyline of the Void would be better here. I'd pick it over Spinning Darkness since SD can't kill tarmogoyf nor mongoose, and I already have Innocent Blood to board in the aggro MU (and bitteblossom is solid against aggro too).
Also, it just occured to me: have you considered that Sinkhole is actually pretty anti-synergistic in a Contamination build? Even though the overall goal is mana denial, that sinkhole is gonna look pretty stupid when you already have a contamination lock. I think pox builds should consider the problem of diminished marginal returns when we start to run many "more of the same" cards.
After all is said and done though, I wonder if a dedicated discard build still wouldn't be better than a dedicated LD build in Legacy. So many decks use so little mana. I see some talk in this thread about how hitting your opponent with Pox when he has 4 lands out is great and all, but let's face it: most legacy decks don't care much if they are left with 2 or 3 land, because half the deck costs 0-1 mana to cast. And if they have 4 lands out, they either had no other cards to play because you discarded them, or you are dead already. OR you are playing against Landstill, in which case you are winning anyway.
Dedicated discard could run what seems to be the most synergistic threats to me: Racks. And since we want to run crucible with man lands, high land count, mox diamond and retrace spells, we get lots of additional win conditions there too. Really, what reason is there not to include the moxen + crucible package in a Pox list? (Well, budget obviously).
I'm really not too fond of Tombstalker. It's powerful, but has no synergy with the rest of the deck. It seems like its power is win more - if they are not in a position to answer a tombstalker, they probably can't answer a recursive nether spirit either.
Another question: The logic that The Rack is anti-synergistic with heavy mana denial seems correct on paper, but is it in reality? If two Racks are out, opponent has 3 cards in hand and is low on life, would he play a spell even if he could? Either he thinks that playing that spell will win him the game sooner than the additional rack damage, in which case mana denial preventing that spell from being played would be good for the pox player. Or he decides against it, in which case we have the same result as if we had played mana denial, so no anti-synergy there (just no added effect to the game state).
Argh! I find myself wanting to eat the cookie and have it too. I want the cuteness of the Contamination lock, with the power of discard and racks. Back to the drawing board.
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4 Wasteland
17 Swamp
Spells
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Funeral Charm
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Raven's Crime
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Tangle Wire
3 Tombstalker
4 Chimeric Idol
I know that Tombstalker isn't very compatable with Crucible of Worlds but with all the discard effects of pox/smallpox and the synergy that Tanglewire has with Chimeric Idol I feel it works. I'm not a big fan of Nether Spirit just for the fact that if I have to discard a Tombstalker I don't want him to be a dead card. Any thoughts?
Why the lone Sensei's Divining Top? You have no way to shuffle your deck or really taking advantage of it.
I think you should reconsider Nether Spirit as a 1-of or 2-of. Discarding a Spirit to an early Smallpox/Pox is a wonderful play. If you get a Spirit and a Tombstalker in the 'yard, you can Delve out that Tombstalker by casting a 2nd, etc. Or you can get that first Tombstalker out of your 'yard with Volrath's Stronghold. You should take a look at my Crucible Pox list in the primer for several nonbasic land ideas that are ideal with Crucible of Worlds.
If nothing else, you might want to consider replacing a few swamps with 1-3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoths. Helps you get more black mana sources out of your Wastelands, especially when you're facing an opponent that isn't playing any/many nonbasic lands. Also allows for a surprise alphastrike by swampwalking a Tombstalker/Idol for the win via Funeral Charm.
Edit:
The Rack & Cursed Scroll both help with running Tangle Wires, giving you cheap early permanents to tap for it.
I am looking to add some Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoths to my deck but I'm actually not worried about Tangle Wire at all. Lets say I play it 4th turn (Which is as early as I could play it). My opponent has to tap down 4 artifacts/creatures/lands. On my turn I stack my upkeep as such:
Remove Fade Counter from Tangle Wire
Tap for Tangle Wire
That means I'll need to tap 3. I will of course tap Tangle Wire meaning I will only need to tap two lands. If I have a crucible out I only need to tap 1. Rack isn't a good idea with my mana denial strategy as it doesn't play well with tangle wire or Wasteland. Also Cursed Scroll isn't helpfull because it doesn't help my Chimeric Idols.
As for the top I just have it to fix draws. I am thinking about adding 4x Polluted Delta to shuffle and also thin the deck. It works very well with Crucible and also works great with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
Edit: Also as for freeing up 'vital lands' isn't really a problem for this deck. The highest mana cost in the deck is Tangle Wire at 4 (Not counting Tombstalkers printed cost of course). The only cards I couldn't cast 4th turn with 4 lands out, 2 of which tapped to Tangle Wire would be:
1. Pox, which I wouldn't cast anyway because I would need to sac two lands
2. Chimeric Idol
3. Crucible
Everything else in the deck can be played with BB and again that's only 1 turn I couldn't cast that. Tangle Wire is excellent because you tap 2/1 permanents (Since Tangle Wire doesn't count) and your opponent has to tap 4/3/2/1
At least that's why I'm playing it. Being able to stack your upkeep correctly is key, you always say "I'll put tapping down to Tangle Wire on the stack, THEN I will put fading on the stack" that way you tap the fewest permanents you can
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Extended/Standard+
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EDH
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Kiku, Night's Flower
i run two tombstalker alongside two nether spirit. they serve two very different functions while both ultimately working toward the same goal - getting the opponent to zero life. a two/two split seems to work fine for me. i can only think of one instance that i got screwed by having both guys in the 'yard at the same time. tombstalker is not the same here as it is in something like mba or eva green. you're not trying to drop him on the table asap. granted, an early 'stalker can win you a few games here and there, but for the most part you want to spend the early turns disrupting your opponent as much as possible. so much so that, by the time your opponent would normally be able to answer both threats in a single turn, it's too late for them. i try not to put both of them on the table at the same time if i can help it, unless it's highly unlikely that my opponent will recover and throw a wrath effect my way.
and on the subject of tombstalker not being synergistic w/ crucible... i've never had a problem there either. when i'm removing cards for his delve ability i try to only remove the stuff that i'm sure i can live without. (ie: anything that's not lands) and if i must remove lands, i see no problems w/ removing swamps, but try not to get rid of wastelands. a crucible/wasteland soft lock can be game winning. this is another instance where it just simply shouldn't matter. by the time you drop the fatness, removing a few lands from the 'yard really shouldn't affect you that much. at this point in the game missing a land drop (even one from the graveyard) shouldn't be that big of a deal.
calibretto
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4 Wasteland
10 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Polluted Delta
Spells
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Funeral Charm
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Tangle Wire
3 Tombstalker
3 Chimeric Idol
2 Nether Spirit
Here are some updates to the list given some input I've received. I took out 1 Raven's Crime and 1 Chimeric Idol in favor of 2 Nether Spirits. Now that I added the polluted delta's to thin out the deck I took out the Raven's Crime because I don't feel I'll have as many lands to draw later in the game. Since I wanted the 'free' Nether Spirit I decided to cut one Idol. Innocent blood is still a good call with Nether Spirit and I wanted to make sure I have 8+ turn 1 answers to Lacky and other x/1 creatures.
I've also added 4 Polluted Deltas and 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth I'm a little worried about life loss form the Delta but with 3 copies of Urborg I feel that if nothing else they can be used as swamps if need be.
I still feel that Rack/Cursed Scroll aren't good options for my build of this deck due to the mana denial/Chimeric Idol options.
EDIT: Question, if Urborg is in play can I sac polluted delta to search for Wasteland since all lands are swamps? That would be pretty awesome.
i'm pretty sure the lands have to be in play before urborg counts them as swamps.
as a side note that's completely unrelated... i hate that they named that land urborg, tomb of yawgmoth when there was already a land named urborg. that's kinda unoriginal if you ask me. and can sometimes be confusing. more often than not if someone says "you should put a couple urborg's in your deck." they mean tomb of yawgmoth, but you never know. /rant
on another note that's kind of related, i'm actually thinking of removing cursed scroll from my list all together. it's an amazing card and i love me some colorless damage, but it's almost horrible in the first few turns and that seems to be when i see it. it seems to do a lot less than it should. by the time the game gets to a point where cursed scroll should be useful, i've got a fat tombstalker on the table doing all the work for the scroll. i was thinking of taking it out and replacing it with chimeric idol. it's still colorless damage, just not so direct.
calibretto
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The best part about idol is there isn't any reason to have your lands untapped at the end of your turn. You have exactly 4 instants the deck (Funeral Charm) so unless you want to 'bluff' having untapped lands isn't helping your strategy. Also I'm sure there will be many times that you don't have a card in hand to use Scroll since there are so many two sided discard outlets in your deck. Also Idol is great if you run into any black deck playing innocent blood or edict since you can use your idol to save your tombstalker
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i would love to see something come along that trumps idol, but for now i think that's the best we got when looking for a creature that's immune to pox - pun intended.
calibretto
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2 Cabal Coffers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Oona, Queen of the Fae
4 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Consume Spirit
4 Phyrexian Arena
3 Damnation
2 Diabolic Tutor
3 Powder Keg
Obviously, Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor would have to leave to make the deck legal for Legacy.
It appears that I have most of the core cards to switch over to Pox, and a Legacy-playing acquaintance has been persuading me to give Pox a go as it is apparently superior to other forms of MBC. However, I would like a detailed explanation as to why this is the case.
I understand that while MBC decks such as the one above play quite reactively, Pox is a little more proactive in that it actively pushes the opponent behind through being forced to sacrifice things all the time while offsetting your own losses, and then using the beaters to exploit the disparity in resources.
Outside of that, I don't really know how to compare the two for overall effectiveness against a variety of matchups, and draw a conclusion as to whether to switch to Pox.
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
I'm not sure if you realise this, but that tells me nothing.
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
Sure it does... it tells you that you should splash green and go Trainwreck
Experimental Kraj
Well yes, but it doesn't tell me what Trainwreck is, nor does it give any reasons why it is 'better'. It's about as bad as people making one card name suggestions without anything else to back it (which attracts warnings and infractions around here).
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
22 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
Control
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Funeral Charm
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
3 Tangle Wire
3 Nether Spirit
2 Tombstalker
2 Chimeric Idol
One change I am considering is exchanging 8 Swamps for 4 Veinfire Borderpost and 4 Mistvein Borderpost. I have tested this and it works way better than you would think, nothing better than playing Pox and automatically keeping a few mana producers in addition to the lands you don't sacrifice.
Currently Playing:
Retired
I'll make the effort to at least thank you for providing a more satisfactory answer
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
4 Wasteland
1 Mutavault
1 Tomb of Urami
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Mikoro, Center of the Sea
1 Cabal Pit
1 Undiscovered Paradise
10 Swamp
ACCELERATION (4)
4 Mox Diamond
DISRUPTION AND CONTROL (27)
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Funeral Charm
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Contamination
1 Raven's Crime
3 Nether Spirit
4 Bitterblossom
1 Undead Gladiator
1 Syphon Life
4 Powder Keg
4 Thoughtseize
4 Innocent Blood
3 Syphon Life
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Of course the decks are different. I was looking for an explanation as to why Pox is apparently 'better' than classical versions of MBC.
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
Ah, I see. Not that it makes my deck making decisions any more straightforward, but thanks for the tip.
I must say however, Pernicious Deed in Train Wreck does look good for addressing MBC's inherent weakness against artifacts and enchantments. Not to mention that by delegating the sweeps to Deed, it frees up a lot of slots to focus on other wincons.
I wonder if Canute is going to further elaborate like he said he would.
EDIT: I've been goldfishing Pox using Apprentice, and I must say, it's a really bizarre deck to figure out.
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
The reason why I feel pox is 'better' than classic MBC is easy: Pox/Small Pox. For a small investment you get such a powerful effect. How many other 2 casting cost spells disrupt hand/mana/creatures? The whole point of Pox is learning when to use the pox spells where you can maximize the loss to your opponent while disrupting yourself the least possible amount.
Being able to pox while you have 3 lands and have not yet dropped a land this turn and your opponent has 4 will net one land versus your opponent. Since you're the one being proactive with pox you can use it to maximum effect.
Another example is lets say you have your oppoent with 3 creatures and you have an innocent blood and pox in your hand. The good play would probably be to play innocent blood and then Pox since even if you play Pox first your opponent still only has to sac one creature to pox (Depending on your hand position of course)
Pox is powerful because of the pox effects and knowing when to play them. It will almost always give you an advantage (especially if you're playing Crucible of Worlds) since your deck is made to abuse pox (Nether Spirit, Chimeric Idol etc) and your opponent's deck is not.
Thanks for the input. This is my first Pox build, but the two lists that appealed to me in the first post was the contamination and crucible ones. Black decks (there are few, competitively) will be immune to Contamination, but none of the disruption pieces will hit all decks. I'm trying to create a hybrid list oriented on mana denial, but perhaps a discard/rack combination would be better?
I could easily drop some hand disruption. The reason for Duress is to handle outs to mana denial by LD, for instance Aether Vial, moxen or acceleration like Seething Song and Dark Ritual. It's also good against combo game 1. I'm not sure Sinkhole would actually do the job of preventing spells to be played better.
Funeral Charm could most likely be cut - I intended it mostly as an answer to t1 Lackey, but goblins see less and less play, and Mox Diamond + Smallpox is an answer, with Innocent Blood coming in from the board. I'm primarily thinking:
+4 Lands (manlands mostly - these also help against lackey)
-4 Funeral Charm
and maybe
-4 Duress
+4 Sinkhole
though this risks defeating its own purpose.
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Feel free to provide any in-game scenarios with Pox that you are not sure how to handle and I will answer and critique them to the best of my ability.
I like your list, urdjur, much more so after your recent modifications. Perhaps the 4 land you introduce can be Mishra's Factorys? Allows another way for you to feed your Contamination lock (accompanied with Crucible of course).
Note: Contamination does not let you override the damage you take when tapping Tomb of Urami or Cabal Pit for mana.
You are of course not taking advantage of The Rack, so mana denial is your main focus. I think Sinkhole will work rather well for you.
You run zero Tombstalkers, so I would definitely consider Spinning Darkness a high candidate for sideboard material, much more so than Powder Keg (which eats your Mox Diamonds and Bitterblossom tokens).
I'd up your Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to 3 count, as, even though Contamination makes all your lands tap for black, with the introduction of Sinkhole you will be running twelve cards that cost :symb::symb:, and you need to hit that reliably.
Finally, I'd try fitting a Volrath's Stronghold in there to help you out when you get a 2nd Nether Spirit in the graveyard. Note: Spinning Darkness from the SB will also help with this
Also, it just occured to me: have you considered that Sinkhole is actually pretty anti-synergistic in a Contamination build? Even though the overall goal is mana denial, that sinkhole is gonna look pretty stupid when you already have a contamination lock. I think pox builds should consider the problem of diminished marginal returns when we start to run many "more of the same" cards.
After all is said and done though, I wonder if a dedicated discard build still wouldn't be better than a dedicated LD build in Legacy. So many decks use so little mana. I see some talk in this thread about how hitting your opponent with Pox when he has 4 lands out is great and all, but let's face it: most legacy decks don't care much if they are left with 2 or 3 land, because half the deck costs 0-1 mana to cast. And if they have 4 lands out, they either had no other cards to play because you discarded them, or you are dead already. OR you are playing against Landstill, in which case you are winning anyway.
Dedicated discard could run what seems to be the most synergistic threats to me: Racks. And since we want to run crucible with man lands, high land count, mox diamond and retrace spells, we get lots of additional win conditions there too. Really, what reason is there not to include the moxen + crucible package in a Pox list? (Well, budget obviously).
I'm really not too fond of Tombstalker. It's powerful, but has no synergy with the rest of the deck. It seems like its power is win more - if they are not in a position to answer a tombstalker, they probably can't answer a recursive nether spirit either.
Another question: The logic that The Rack is anti-synergistic with heavy mana denial seems correct on paper, but is it in reality? If two Racks are out, opponent has 3 cards in hand and is low on life, would he play a spell even if he could? Either he thinks that playing that spell will win him the game sooner than the additional rack damage, in which case mana denial preventing that spell from being played would be good for the pox player. Or he decides against it, in which case we have the same result as if we had played mana denial, so no anti-synergy there (just no added effect to the game state).
Argh! I find myself wanting to eat the cookie and have it too. I want the cuteness of the Contamination lock, with the power of discard and racks. Back to the drawing board.
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
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