I would also try to fit in Echoing Truth into that list somewhere. Honestly, I find Propaganda to be subpar, so perhaps you could switch those out for Truths.
Yeah it's pretty well-accepted that mono-blue lists could use some sort of bounce in the main, as they pretty much have zero removal (and Jitte is too slow).
Two Propagandas don't seem to be enough to consistently get them when you need them. When do you need them?
In a more casual time I have used Vedalken Shackles to good effect, partially because my meta likes annoying weenies like Hyppies, and partially cause I just like the damn things. Not recommended when you only have 12 blue sources, of course. EDIT: Not recommended in general. But gorramn it, reusable Control Magic is hot.
I agree, bounce is a must for this deck. As others have said in this thread, you don't really need Wake Thrashers to bring the beatdown. I have also found the Cursecatchers to be lackluster, but that probably depends on your meta. Personally I would rather play a Vial or Stifle a fetchland on Turn 1. Sure, he can be vialed in by surprise on Turn 2, but after that turn I want to be Vialing in the lords. I like the following for a more control-focused build (that's still aggro enough to get the job done):
-3 Wake Thrasher
-4 Cursecatcher
-3 Stifle (move them to the board, if it looks useful, side them in for Game 2 by taking out bounce)
+7 Bounce (Echoing Truth/Wipe Away/Rushing River/or even Boomerang)
+1 Standstill (too good not to run 4)
+3 Counterspell
But that's just me... this deck can be built a couple of different ways (at least).
I like the following for a more control-focused build (that's still aggro enough to get the job done):
That's a bit odd, judging from recent developments. Merfolk tries to be Sligh: a balls to the wall aggro deck that happens to be blue. Sure it's got countermagic and therefore fits into the aggro-control genre, but where Sligh uses bolts to clear the way for its undercosted beaters, Merfolk uses its countermagic not to shut down the opp but rather to slow them down just enough to send 20 damage in as quickly as possible. Therefore, recent lists use only free countermagic so that all available mana can be used to cast Merfolk. For most pilots, this is not a draw-go deck.
I would imagine that if you really wanted a control deck, you'd have better luck with fewer dependencies between critters, and use the normal "big finisher" creatures that control decks prefer.
Not trying to be mean, but it does seem odd to me that your method works. Have you tried the more aggressive versions? Do you prefer the control-heavy route because of personal preference or because it does better?
Not trying to be mean, but it does seem odd to me that your method works. Have you tried the more aggressive versions? Do you prefer the control-heavy route because of personal preference or because it does better?
Thanks for the feedback. Maybe it's personal preference, but I think that it's partly the decks that I've faced so far. It seems like I lose before I can deal lethal damage unless I have a ton of countermagic available, and the only way to ensure that has been to cut down on the aggro in favor of more control. I should qualify that statement, however, since my testing so far has been on MTGO -- so I'm facing Bazaar of Baghdad-fueled dredge decks, Tinker and Tolarian Academy-fueled artifact decks, etc. -- in other words, stuff that's not legal in Legacy but is legal in the "Classic" format on MTGO. Perhaps the aggro Merfolk deck does better in a pure Legacy environment. I'll be testing the deck out more thoroughly (in paper) over the next few weeks. I'm still gathering the last of the paper cards that I need. I'll try both the control-heavy version and the aggro version to see which fares better in my local meta.
Here's my list. I was wondering if anyone had any critique, or any suggestions on the sideboard. I wanna try to get Arcane Laboratory into the SB somehow, but I'm not sure what else to get rid of.
...@Shadowmancer711: Why Arcane Lab? White plays Canonist because it doesn't have FoW and Stifle, which are cheaper (to cast) and harder to play around as they stay in your hand. Stifle has additional usefulness against fetches, etc.
Especially since it's going to come in against Storm, ANT simply goes off beforeyouhitthreemana. Yes, countermagic can hurt them, but a 3cc enchant is not going to do the trick. In this situation, you're better off with Stifles to nullify the actual storm-ing OR some other form of protection. The BEST thing you can do would be establishing a countermagic/protection buffer...but this would not guarantee your survival. You need crap that immediately shuts them down. If it's not coming out turn 1 or amazing turn 2, it's going to be too late. Mindbreak Trap is also a better call if you know Storm will be present, since that card is an immediate hard answer; again answering the speed issue.
Also, Finn's suggested list runs 22-23 creatures including Mutavaults, and you're running 27. Might it make more sense to play some maindeck defense (a'la Kira) if you're facing a lot of point destruction?
+0.5...I can't suggest precise cards since it's heavily meta-dependent BUT 27 is too much. Anything around 22-24 can work. Your support makes the deck work well --- creature options only go so far. This is one of the reasons Zoo works so well -- it has nice support in the form of burn and removal. You're going to want some combination of permission, draw, and opponent-disruption. Tempo also plays into this decisions and THAT is also based upon meta knowledge.
If cards on the board appear in multiples (Ichorid with tokens, Zoo with its 4x of critters, etc), Echoing Truth is a no brainer. But if you're dealing with permission-heavy decks like Dreadstill and Thresh, you may need to run Wipe Away instead --- since Quality + Reliability > Quantity of items removed.
...Otherwise, perhaps some more utility spells? One problem with having a lot of creatures is that you need the mana to cast them and use them, and your curve is rather steep with 11 3-drops. If you tend to use your Wastelands and activate your Mutavaults, you'll be perpetually low on mana. Has this been a problem in your testing?
+1
Also look at the raw costs of your men. UU is actually difficult to consistently pay for in Merfolk. This may have been overlooked but with 8 generic-producing lands, you can't bank on hitting dos islands. With UU not always around, you're looking at relying heavily upon Vial, which is seeing more and more hate. Don't fall reliant upon vial, it's utility.
**
J-, I won't change the deck but the SB looks incredibly out of place (unless your meta is precisely what you're running. not sure)
SB
4 Back to Basics (good)
3 Hydroblast (not sure how red spells relate to your meta, solid if you're seeing stuff....solid for a big scene)
3 Relic of Progenitus (only because at worst it eats Goyf and is a cantrip. Still kicks ass against Ichorid. isn't as dead a topdeck in the later rounds like T.crypt is)
5 slots = Kira / anti-storm (should you expect a lot of this) / bounce
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
@naarou: Let us know how you did! This comes a bit late, but I agree with putting the B2B in the board. I'm anticipating that with only 3 Vials and 2 Vaults, you may have been left with a Standstill in hand more often than you had hoped. If you want to continue along the Standstill path, I'd definitely try to get another Vial and Vault.
I went 2-3. Lost to a stax deck (overwhelmed g1, and outplayed g3. ><). Next loss was to a goblin deck, which I sided in hydroblasts but never saw. The last loss was to another merfolk deck.
Overall, I learned a LOT by keeping tight notes of each matchup, so hopefully next tournament I'm a bit more experienced (plus having vials/vaults/wastelands might be cool :D)
ps - Running back to basics main was fun. I don't think I'm going to do it again, but it certainly raised a lot of eyebrows!
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I think Hydroblast is gonna be necessary, and I can swap Crypt for the Relic no problem. Gonna drop the Propaganda for Echoing Truth for now, see what happens. I'll try Mindbreak Trap, thanks. See how this goes. Swapped my deck list around as well, lemme know how this looks:
Overall, I learned a LOT by keeping tight notes of each matchup
If you don't mind, please give us a rundown, in as much detail as you can manage. I really think that tourney reports are worth a lot, because we can learn from each others experiences and mistakes, and over time we can learn what sorts of card choices work against what decks and metas.
Anyone split GY hate between Crypt and Ravenous Trap? You know all those guys will run Pithing Needle in their board to combat the Crypt, so....the Trap just seems like a pretty useful item.
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I think Hydroblast is gonna be necessary, and I can swap Crypt for the Relic no problem. Gonna drop the Propaganda for Echoing Truth for now, see what happens. I'll try Mindbreak Trap, thanks. See how this goes. Swapped my deck list around as well, lemme know how this looks:
Possibly considering switching Echoing Truth and Stifle? Kind of a meta call, but I feel like bounce MD might be more useful.
Have you considered DreadFolk? This could allow you to squeeze more control and utility elements into the deck, utilize stifle proactively, and allow you to drop critter count while still maintaining an aggressive nature. Not for everyone, but you should look into it.
2 Dreadnought --- takes over for WT
Also, your Sovereigns or Silvergills could still be utilized OR could be cut in favor of more stifle effect to pull off stifle nought. Idk who I'd cut but silvergills maybe because your merfolk count would be so heaviy reduced gills becomes a burden.
Just ideas
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Opting for the Trinket Mage SB so that I can combat multiple things. Back to Basics and Stifle are these for everything else, and Jitte for Goblins and Goyf and such (still uncertain about this one). Thoughts please.
I still am missing 2 Wasteland, 3 Mutavault, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Back to Basics. I also wanna find space for Submerge and/or Echoing Truth in the board.
Over at the source Kira's been making quite big waves. Videogamer99's friend is a useful datapoint but only one datapoint. It's not a very expensive rare: I'd test it if you're even remotely curious. In the end, I believe that Kira and StP/PtE could make the matchup much more even.
Keep in mind that the original question was what to do if you are running mono-blue in the first place (e.g. in a control-heavy meta). In that case, Kira has both been known to be helpful against Zoo. They're bandaids trying to fix a broken arm as Finn said, but at least they exist, and they're probably the most helpful.
hi all, i'm not too experianced with merfs (i played slivers and eva green for the longest time), but think i may try it based on my meta.
i have the usual mono blue build, but in the 2 semi-open slots i had shakels instead of wipeaway.
i'm wondering what would be best in those slots. either...
2x shakels, 2x wipe away, or 2x back to basics?
my meta has a team america, canadian thresh, ugb countertop, ugw countertop, ravager, ichorid, and a naya zoo deck (thankfuly not piloted by the best of players).
i'm also wondering what an optimal board would be for this meta?
any takers?
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
hi all, i'm not too experianced with merfs (i played slivers and eva green for the longest time), but think i may try it based on my meta.
i have the usual mono blue build, but in the 2 semi-open slots i had shakels instead of wipeaway.
i'm wondering what would be best in those slots. either...
2x shakels, 2x wipe away, or 2x back to basics?
my meta has a team america, canadian thresh, ugb countertop, ugw countertop, ravager, ichorid, and a naya zoo deck (thankfuly not piloted by the best of players).
i'm also wondering what an optimal board would be for this meta?
any takers?
I always take Echoing Truth as my bounce card of choice because of the cheaper cost and chance to 2-for-1. Countertop will also activate with Wipe Away anyway.
However, that meta doesn't seem like it'll have TOO much identical stuff to bounce, and CT has a harder time finding a 3cc spell.
Planning on going to a (hopefully) big tournament next saturday but im unsure what to run sb because i dont know whats all going to be run other than at liest one mirror and maybe one trini-stax deck (if a friend chooses to play it)
this is what i have so far what do you all think i could do to improve it? just a few notes first though stifle is out of the question because i dont have any.
ゆっくりしていってね!!!
Two Propagandas don't seem to be enough to consistently get them when you need them. When do you need them?
In a more casual time I have used Vedalken Shackles to good effect, partially because my meta likes annoying weenies like Hyppies, and partially cause I just like the damn things. Not recommended when you only have 12 blue sources, of course. EDIT: Not recommended in general. But gorramn it, reusable Control Magic is hot.
@dyzzy: Teeka's Dragon? (it costs 9)
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
-3 Wake Thrasher
-4 Cursecatcher
-3 Stifle (move them to the board, if it looks useful, side them in for Game 2 by taking out bounce)
+7 Bounce (Echoing Truth/Wipe Away/Rushing River/or even Boomerang)
+1 Standstill (too good not to run 4)
+3 Counterspell
But that's just me... this deck can be built a couple of different ways (at least).
That's a bit odd, judging from recent developments. Merfolk tries to be Sligh: a balls to the wall aggro deck that happens to be blue. Sure it's got countermagic and therefore fits into the aggro-control genre, but where Sligh uses bolts to clear the way for its undercosted beaters, Merfolk uses its countermagic not to shut down the opp but rather to slow them down just enough to send 20 damage in as quickly as possible. Therefore, recent lists use only free countermagic so that all available mana can be used to cast Merfolk. For most pilots, this is not a draw-go deck.
I would imagine that if you really wanted a control deck, you'd have better luck with fewer dependencies between critters, and use the normal "big finisher" creatures that control decks prefer.
Not trying to be mean, but it does seem odd to me that your method works. Have you tried the more aggressive versions? Do you prefer the control-heavy route because of personal preference or because it does better?
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Thanks for the feedback. Maybe it's personal preference, but I think that it's partly the decks that I've faced so far. It seems like I lose before I can deal lethal damage unless I have a ton of countermagic available, and the only way to ensure that has been to cut down on the aggro in favor of more control. I should qualify that statement, however, since my testing so far has been on MTGO -- so I'm facing Bazaar of Baghdad-fueled dredge decks, Tinker and Tolarian Academy-fueled artifact decks, etc. -- in other words, stuff that's not legal in Legacy but is legal in the "Classic" format on MTGO. Perhaps the aggro Merfolk deck does better in a pure Legacy environment. I'll be testing the deck out more thoroughly (in paper) over the next few weeks. I'm still gathering the last of the paper cards that I need. I'll try both the control-heavy version and the aggro version to see which fares better in my local meta.
Especially since it's going to come in against Storm, ANT simply goes off before you hit three mana. Yes, countermagic can hurt them, but a 3cc enchant is not going to do the trick. In this situation, you're better off with Stifles to nullify the actual storm-ing OR some other form of protection. The BEST thing you can do would be establishing a countermagic/protection buffer...but this would not guarantee your survival. You need crap that immediately shuts them down. If it's not coming out turn 1 or amazing turn 2, it's going to be too late.
Mindbreak Trap is also a better call if you know Storm will be present, since that card is an immediate hard answer; again answering the speed issue.
+0.5...I can't suggest precise cards since it's heavily meta-dependent BUT 27 is too much. Anything around 22-24 can work. Your support makes the deck work well --- creature options only go so far. This is one of the reasons Zoo works so well -- it has nice support in the form of burn and removal. You're going to want some combination of permission, draw, and opponent-disruption. Tempo also plays into this decisions and THAT is also based upon meta knowledge.
If cards on the board appear in multiples (Ichorid with tokens, Zoo with its 4x of critters, etc), Echoing Truth is a no brainer. But if you're dealing with permission-heavy decks like Dreadstill and Thresh, you may need to run Wipe Away instead --- since Quality + Reliability > Quantity of items removed.
+1
Also look at the raw costs of your men. UU is actually difficult to consistently pay for in Merfolk. This may have been overlooked but with 8 generic-producing lands, you can't bank on hitting dos islands. With UU not always around, you're looking at relying heavily upon Vial, which is seeing more and more hate. Don't fall reliant upon vial, it's utility.
**
J-, I won't change the deck but the SB looks incredibly out of place (unless your meta is precisely what you're running. not sure)
SB
4 Back to Basics (good)
3 Hydroblast (not sure how red spells relate to your meta, solid if you're seeing stuff....solid for a big scene)
3 Relic of Progenitus (only because at worst it eats Goyf and is a cantrip. Still kicks ass against Ichorid. isn't as dead a topdeck in the later rounds like T.crypt is)
5 slots = Kira / anti-storm (should you expect a lot of this) / bounce
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I went 2-3. Lost to a stax deck (overwhelmed g1, and outplayed g3. ><). Next loss was to a goblin deck, which I sided in hydroblasts but never saw. The last loss was to another merfolk deck.
Overall, I learned a LOT by keeping tight notes of each matchup, so hopefully next tournament I'm a bit more experienced (plus having vials/vaults/wastelands might be cool :D)
ps - Running back to basics main was fun. I don't think I'm going to do it again, but it certainly raised a lot of eyebrows!
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Merfolk Sovereign
2 Wake Thrasher
Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Standstill
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
Lands
13 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
4 Back to Basics
3 Hydroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Echoing Truth
Possibly considering switching Echoing Truth and Stifle? Kind of a meta call, but I feel like bounce MD might be more useful.
If you don't mind, please give us a rundown, in as much detail as you can manage. I really think that tourney reports are worth a lot, because we can learn from each others experiences and mistakes, and over time we can learn what sorts of card choices work against what decks and metas.
Finn's recommended mono-blue list runs 2x Echoing Truth in your Wakethrasher slots.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Have you considered DreadFolk? This could allow you to squeeze more control and utility elements into the deck, utilize stifle proactively, and allow you to drop critter count while still maintaining an aggressive nature. Not for everyone, but you should look into it.
2 Dreadnought --- takes over for WT
Also, your Sovereigns or Silvergills could still be utilized OR could be cut in favor of more stifle effect to pull off stifle nought. Idk who I'd cut but silvergills maybe because your merfolk count would be so heaviy reduced gills becomes a burden.
Just ideas
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Merfolk Sovereign
2 Wake Thrasher
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Echoing Truth
4 Aether Vial
13 Island
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
4 Back to Basics
3 Trinket Mage
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Stifle
Opting for the Trinket Mage SB so that I can combat multiple things. Back to Basics and Stifle are these for everything else, and Jitte for Goblins and Goyf and such (still uncertain about this one). Thoughts please.
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergil Adept
3 Merfolk Soverign
2 Wake Thrasher
Spells
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Aether Vial
Lands
12 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Back to Basics
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
I still am missing 2 Wasteland, 3 Mutavault, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Back to Basics. I also wanna find space for Submerge and/or Echoing Truth in the board.
One of my friends has tried it and he doesnt think that it works all too great. Chalice of the Void works better to counter their removal.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Keep in mind that the original question was what to do if you are running mono-blue in the first place (e.g. in a control-heavy meta). In that case, Kira has both been known to be helpful against Zoo. They're bandaids trying to fix a broken arm as Finn said, but at least they exist, and they're probably the most helpful.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
i have the usual mono blue build, but in the 2 semi-open slots i had shakels instead of wipeaway.
i'm wondering what would be best in those slots. either...
2x shakels, 2x wipe away, or 2x back to basics?
my meta has a team america, canadian thresh, ugb countertop, ugw countertop, ravager, ichorid, and a naya zoo deck (thankfuly not piloted by the best of players).
i'm also wondering what an optimal board would be for this meta?
any takers?
I always take Echoing Truth as my bounce card of choice because of the cheaper cost and chance to 2-for-1. Countertop will also activate with Wipe Away anyway.
However, that meta doesn't seem like it'll have TOO much identical stuff to bounce, and CT has a harder time finding a 3cc spell.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
this is what i have so far what do you all think i could do to improve it? just a few notes first though stifle is out of the question because i dont have any.
"Insanity is knowing that what you're doing is completely idiotic, but still, somehow, you just can't stop it."
Why Trickbind over Stifle? A main purpose is killing fetches early on, and you can't wait two turns for that. Is Stifle MD?
I split GY hate between Ravenous Trap and Crypt because you know they pack Pithing Needle.
Since my friend runs Staxxx, I use Hurkyl's Recall. Should work against Ravager, too.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
because as i said before i dont have stifle
"Insanity is knowing that what you're doing is completely idiotic, but still, somehow, you just can't stop it."