I have been thinking about Elves lately...could you throw in Arcane Laboratory to slow them down? I know if you use it at all, it should stop ANT, but has anyone tried it against Elves or Gobs? I find myself playing only about one spell a turn anyway, so I cannot imagine it hurts us THAT much. Dark Ritual becomes less useful (can still pump), and I feel that with AL, dropping a Standstill becomes even nicer.
If you can counter their early stuff, yes AL is nice. But elves can churn out lots of men by the time you play it. Just watch out for that.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I prefer Echoing Truth to the trap. The elves players in my area love to make piles of tokens, and hitting 6+ guys for 2 mana is fantastic. I've also hit 2x Goyf a number of times with it.
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Back in my day, Wrath of God didn't kill Black Knight and that's the way we liked it. We also had to pay mana for our 1/1s. Kids and your Memnites. Get off my lawn!
I think hibernation is going to go into my SB but right now it is so tight because I need all the red/goyf hate to beat goblins/zoo etc, but I think the 3rd Jitte will help also.
There def is no room for the Cosi's Trickster. I actually think you guys are underestimating how powerful it can be because most decks play fetches, not including the other shuffle effects and even a 2/2 for 1blue is pretty good. You can use the turn one argument for cursecatcher also. He is a bad top deck also late game and at least the trickster can get bigger. I have yet to play test it but I know for sure it isn't a sb card. I like the 3/3 or something like that.
As far as the arcane laboratory, I have tried it but it seems too slow. Turn 3+ elves already have got the super board advantage with all their extra mana and creatures which puts them a head. Vs storm decks it is way to slow because they go for turn 1 or 2.
echoing truth is awesome and def is the right choice. I thought the same thing about daze, but Warden is right. You need the mana to play creatures and counterspell would not work as it is to slow. Not to mention I only run 12 islands and I am lucky to get 3 or more per game. I thought about maybe running some more counters with daze because it doesn't work when they get more mana. But turns 1-3 Daze is great and there just isn't any more room. I have had the most success with more creatures then spells in Legacy..
Sorad, if you are expecting Jitte to be the card to beat Goyfsligh, you are going to be disappointed. Against Goblins it is sometimes good, but just as often it is awful. I have stopped using Jitte in this deck after a long trial period.
I understand that Cursecatcher appears to be a dead card late, but it is often the coup de grâce. When I get the Standstill and Silvergill chain going, Cursecatcher is what translates card advantage into genuine board position. Any creature that costs U in this deck would do. But the fact that Cursecatcher is clearly powerful early, and is usually a 2/2 or 3/3 later makes it really well suited to its role.
The funny thing about Cosi's Trickster is that it hoses the same decks Stifle does. And since they are competing for the same spot in the deck, you have to ask yourself which does that job better. For me there is no question. I am not saying that Cosi's Trickster can never be good. But it is not better than Catcher. And it is not better than Stifle.
obviously I am not expecting Jitte to be the only card, not sure if you saw my sideboard post last page but I bring in threads of disloyalty to help vs Goyf. But a 6/6+ Merfolk coming at him will help. Jitte is great for the creature removal and life gain, which I am hoping a 3rd will help vs Zoo/Goblins and elf. I have won lots of games with Jitte equipped and can't see how you don't think it is good. I want one every game.
As far as the catcher, everyone agrees he is good and I'm not saying use the trickster over him. I'm saying try for both such as 3/3 mix. I'm trying to lower my curve because I also run 3 wake thrasher and 1-2 merfolk sovereign. Probably replace the sovereign with trickster in testing.
I took stifle out of my deck because it doesn't go with the theme.(IMO) Turn one I would rather play a creature then not play anything and hope to get a stifle on their fetch. Merfolk to me is aggro which swarms with creatures and counters their big stuff. Keeping mana open is wrong and I use the counterspell argument for stifle. So Cosi's Trickster will fit right in my Merfolk build.
regarding the trickster, where does that leave tidal warrior as we all agree that cursecatcher is essential. Tidal warrior over trickster is a debate im trying to playtest, but find his synergy with lord of atlantis necessary for the breakthrough. I wish to not run more than 6-8 1 drop merfolk.
thats the list i am using, and it is doing great so far.. but it is struggling vs zoo and other creature heavy builds (even with the paths). Do you guys think its worth removing white entirely and running back to basics? Force of will, maybe i dont need 4, as i want to keep it more aggro (tho its hard to not use the playset). Any thoughts, suggestions is welcome
This took second place at Legacy Top 8 Decks from: Milan (Ovino4 legacy) 12.09.2009 Format: Legacy 285 Participants 9 rounds of Swiss - followed by T8 Playoffs
I'm just starting to get into legacy {my first deck is Aggro Elves which isn't near the deck I'm about to post as far as being a TIER one deck in the format} and this is a deck I found I wanted to share with the forum.
I'm a pretty competitive player {understatement} and I'm thinking this archtype is the one for me.
I noticed that you are not running Silvergill Adept. How is that treating you so far?
Ive been experimenting with Counter-Top based merfolk. This Version is more of a hybrid version. It can be the conventional merfolk that we're used to see for aggro matchups. Counter-Top is there to battle combo decks or decks with small curves.
12 Island 4 Wasteland (could be Rishadan Port since the meta runs little non-basic) 3 Mutavault (could be Rishadan Port since i dont own these bad boys)
I wanted to try Lullmage Mentor but its pretty tight. It is nice that its at 3CC. It extends this deck's countertop reach to 3. But then again, this deck should be fine with 10x 3CC.
Cold-Eyed Selkie is there as a Top 'reset'. It also provides good card advantage (given that if it connects). I am also thinking of running Wake Thrasher in this spot since we already have Standstills as Top resetters. Maybe I could run Lullmage Mentor in this spot. Time will tell.
I am also thinking of running a couple of fetchlands as a Top reset.
So far, this deck is like driving along QEW along downtown Toronto. Sometimes its fast (beatdown merfolk lords style + standstill), sometimes its slow (countertop + slowly building your army). Playwise, you have to know which way you are going to so you dont get screwed. You definitely need to know your mulligans.
I built this deck to battle decks that are faster than the conventional Merfolks (combo, elves and the like) and because sometimes, little disruption isnt enough.
I might be the only one but I think Sovereign is really only good enough with Wake Thrasher. No Thrasher, means you could probably skip out on putting in Sovereign. And Adepts probably should be a 4-of, too good not to be.
I'm also trying out a CB/Standstill build and am thinking of trying out Lullmage Mentor as well. I like it because it can generate CA out of countering a spell that can often turn into a 2/2 or 3/3 islandwalker which also avoids Counterbalance and Standstill.
If you need a top reset, you could try out some fetches, maybe just 4 or so. Then if you wanted, you could extend your SB to include whatever color you splash for (maybe green for KGrip).
I'm also trying out a CB/Standstill build and am thinking of trying out Lullmage Mentor as well. I like it because it can generate CA out of countering a spell that can often turn into a 2/2 or 3/3 islandwalker which also avoids Counterbalance and Standstill.
I really like the idea of this route. It's a further change in the archetype, but I think that it can work out advantageously. Here's a decklist off the top of my head:
I'm rather fond of Summon the School in here, it works great with Stonybrook Banneret and Merrow Reejerey. It also helps you ramp up to seven Merfolk quickly for, well, complete board control
Why are people trying to run Lullmage Mentor? Is it to use his ability to tap your 7 Merfolk, I know it works with the counter/top but is it really that good? And why No Lord of Atlantis
Well, assuming you are playing a somewhat control-style game, you will get on average a 2/2 merfolk and at least 1-3 1/1 merfolks and an additional ability to tap seven merfolks to counter something (view this as an "added bonus"; not a reason to run him) for an investment of :1mana::symu::symu:, or for via AEther Vial. He is an interesting card, but will only work if you're playing a more control-oriented build, otherwise your benefit yield will be reduced along with your speed.
I just thought of a new addition that accompanies the Lullmage Mentor excellently: Remand. You remand their spell, draw a card, get a 1/1 merfolk token, and set them back a turn; next turn you can counter it again. Or, you Remand your own spell, get a 1/1 merfolk token, draw a card. It's quite nifty.
I personally do not like Summon the Schools. I still think its pretty slow in Legacy. Maybe I've been playing the card wrong. I would actually put Kira or Merfolk Sovereign over this spot to protect my tokens rather than creating more. Yes, I picked Sovereign over Lord of Atlantis because it helps CounterTop's range to 3
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Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
If someone Wastelands my Mutavault while I have Kira out, I can make Muta a creature and protect it, right?
No. Kira grants the ability only to creatures. So while Mutavault is not a creature it does not have the ability.
The ability TRIGGERS on the occasion of the creature BECOMING a target.
So, once the Wasteland targets Mutavault, if it was not a creature, it will already be a TARGET. Animating Mutavault will be too late to counter the ability because it was already a target when it recieved the ability via Kira. The only way to make this work is to have Mutavault be a creature already before Wasteland is used. You could keep one mana used at the beginning of each upkeep, but Wasteland could be used in response; but then if you pay more mana to animate Mutavault it won't help save it.
If you can counter their early stuff, yes AL is nice. But elves can churn out lots of men by the time you play it. Just watch out for that.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I think Cosi's Trickster belongs in the sideboard.
I prefer Echoing Truth to the trap. The elves players in my area love to make piles of tokens, and hitting 6+ guys for 2 mana is fantastic. I've also hit 2x Goyf a number of times with it.
There def is no room for the Cosi's Trickster. I actually think you guys are underestimating how powerful it can be because most decks play fetches, not including the other shuffle effects and even a 2/2 for 1blue is pretty good. You can use the turn one argument for cursecatcher also. He is a bad top deck also late game and at least the trickster can get bigger. I have yet to play test it but I know for sure it isn't a sb card. I like the 3/3 or something like that.
As far as the arcane laboratory, I have tried it but it seems too slow. Turn 3+ elves already have got the super board advantage with all their extra mana and creatures which puts them a head. Vs storm decks it is way to slow because they go for turn 1 or 2.
echoing truth is awesome and def is the right choice. I thought the same thing about daze, but Warden is right. You need the mana to play creatures and counterspell would not work as it is to slow. Not to mention I only run 12 islands and I am lucky to get 3 or more per game. I thought about maybe running some more counters with daze because it doesn't work when they get more mana. But turns 1-3 Daze is great and there just isn't any more room. I have had the most success with more creatures then spells in Legacy..
I understand that Cursecatcher appears to be a dead card late, but it is often the coup de grâce. When I get the Standstill and Silvergill chain going, Cursecatcher is what translates card advantage into genuine board position. Any creature that costs U in this deck would do. But the fact that Cursecatcher is clearly powerful early, and is usually a 2/2 or 3/3 later makes it really well suited to its role.
The funny thing about Cosi's Trickster is that it hoses the same decks Stifle does. And since they are competing for the same spot in the deck, you have to ask yourself which does that job better. For me there is no question. I am not saying that Cosi's Trickster can never be good. But it is not better than Catcher. And it is not better than Stifle.
obviously I am not expecting Jitte to be the only card, not sure if you saw my sideboard post last page but I bring in threads of disloyalty to help vs Goyf. But a 6/6+ Merfolk coming at him will help. Jitte is great for the creature removal and life gain, which I am hoping a 3rd will help vs Zoo/Goblins and elf. I have won lots of games with Jitte equipped and can't see how you don't think it is good. I want one every game.
As far as the catcher, everyone agrees he is good and I'm not saying use the trickster over him. I'm saying try for both such as 3/3 mix. I'm trying to lower my curve because I also run 3 wake thrasher and 1-2 merfolk sovereign. Probably replace the sovereign with trickster in testing.
I took stifle out of my deck because it doesn't go with the theme.(IMO) Turn one I would rather play a creature then not play anything and hope to get a stifle on their fetch. Merfolk to me is aggro which swarms with creatures and counters their big stuff. Keeping mana open is wrong and I use the counterspell argument for stifle. So Cosi's Trickster will fit right in my Merfolk build.
4 tundra
4 mutavault
2 flooded strand
7 island
3 tidal warrior
4 lord of atlantis
4 merrow reejerey
2 wake thrasher
4 silvergill adept
4 force of will
4 path to exile
3 wipe away
3 ponder
thats the list i am using, and it is doing great so far.. but it is struggling vs zoo and other creature heavy builds (even with the paths). Do you guys think its worth removing white entirely and running back to basics? Force of will, maybe i dont need 4, as i want to keep it more aggro (tho its hard to not use the playset). Any thoughts, suggestions is welcome
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=291220
Legacy Top 8 Decks from: Milan (Ovino4 legacy) 12.09.2009
Format: Legacy
285 Participants
9 rounds of Swiss
- followed by T8 Playoffs
I'm just starting to get into legacy {my first deck is Aggro Elves which isn't near the deck I'm about to post as far as being a TIER one deck in the format} and this is a deck I found I wanted to share with the forum.
I'm a pretty competitive player {understatement} and I'm thinking this archtype is the one for me.
This deck is no joke so Enjoy
S.M.
2nd Place
Danilo Appendino
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cursecatcher
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lord of Atlantis
2 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Standstill
4 Wake Thrasher
12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
S.B.
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
1 Hydroblast
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Umezawa's Jitte
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Your deck tag isn't working so I helped yah a little;)
Anyway, looks solid to me. I've seen merfolks deck without stifle and still do good.
Is the Kira used against decks with lots of spot-removal/direct damage? (black stuff, white stuff, Grim Lavamancers, Sloggers, etc.?)
Also, Betrayers helped merfolk somewhat. Jitte, Kira, and Threads are all used a bit. Just an observation.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Ive been experimenting with Counter-Top based merfolk. This Version is more of a hybrid version. It can be the conventional merfolk that we're used to see for aggro matchups. Counter-Top is there to battle combo decks or decks with small curves.
4 Wasteland (could be Rishadan Port since the meta runs little non-basic)
3 Mutavault (could be Rishadan Port since i dont own these bad boys)
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Silvergill Adept
3 Merfolk Sovereign
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 AEther Vial
3 Standstill
3 Stifle
3 Hydroblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Counterbalance
1 Daze
1 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Standstill
3 (open slots)
I wanted to try Lullmage Mentor but its pretty tight. It is nice that its at 3CC. It extends this deck's countertop reach to 3. But then again, this deck should be fine with 10x 3CC.
Cold-Eyed Selkie is there as a Top 'reset'. It also provides good card advantage (given that if it connects). I am also thinking of running Wake Thrasher in this spot since we already have Standstills as Top resetters. Maybe I could run Lullmage Mentor in this spot. Time will tell.
I am also thinking of running a couple of fetchlands as a Top reset.
So far, this deck is like driving along QEW along downtown Toronto. Sometimes its fast (beatdown merfolk lords style + standstill), sometimes its slow (countertop + slowly building your army). Playwise, you have to know which way you are going to so you dont get screwed. You definitely need to know your mulligans.
I built this deck to battle decks that are faster than the conventional Merfolks (combo, elves and the like) and because sometimes, little disruption isnt enough.
Any good comments that would help the deck?
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I'm also trying out a CB/Standstill build and am thinking of trying out Lullmage Mentor as well. I like it because it can generate CA out of countering a spell that can often turn into a 2/2 or 3/3 islandwalker which also avoids Counterbalance and Standstill.
If you need a top reset, you could try out some fetches, maybe just 4 or so. Then if you wanted, you could extend your SB to include whatever color you splash for (maybe green for KGrip).
I really like the idea of this route. It's a further change in the archetype, but I think that it can work out advantageously. Here's a decklist off the top of my head:
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
2x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Tundra
1x Plains
4x Island
Artifacts (7)
4x AEther Vial
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Cursecatcher
3x Stonybrook Banneret
4x Merrow Reejerey
4x Lullmage Mentor
2x Summon the School
Control (14)
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Counterbalance
3x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Stifle
2x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Echoing Truth
I'm rather fond of Summon the School in here, it works great with Stonybrook Banneret and Merrow Reejerey. It also helps you ramp up to seven Merfolk quickly for, well, complete board control
I just thought of a new addition that accompanies the Lullmage Mentor excellently: Remand. You remand their spell, draw a card, get a 1/1 merfolk token, and set them back a turn; next turn you can counter it again. Or, you Remand your own spell, get a 1/1 merfolk token, draw a card. It's quite nifty.
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Heroes of the Plane
The Price of Legacy
The Price of Legacy 2.0!
Decks:
EDH
Malestrom Wanderer Group Chaotic Hugs
Tasigur, The Golden Fang Valu-Town
Modern
Too many to List...
Legacy
GWBNic-Fit PodGWB
G12-Post (Building)G
No. Kira grants the ability only to creatures. So while Mutavault is not a creature it does not have the ability.
The ability TRIGGERS on the occasion of the creature BECOMING a target.
So, once the Wasteland targets Mutavault, if it was not a creature, it will already be a TARGET. Animating Mutavault will be too late to counter the ability because it was already a target when it recieved the ability via Kira. The only way to make this work is to have Mutavault be a creature already before Wasteland is used. You could keep one mana used at the beginning of each upkeep, but Wasteland could be used in response; but then if you pay more mana to animate Mutavault it won't help save it.
J
Its the goblin ringleader for wish, but where r3ed gets a two two with haste blue gets crap.
Oh my goodness no, he's not good enough...
On a different note, silvergill adept has been so and so lately. With merfolk sovereign in the mix, is it possible to test riptide pilferer again?
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.