Tithe seems like a halfway decent answer to reanimator, given that when they go for their guy you probably won't have anything in play. HOWEVER, if they go for Iona, and set her to white (who wouldn't?), you are in for a rough day. Pray for a Karakas...
vs dredge, BFT is pretty good at removing their bridges, and if you stick an early Grunt and put all of their dredgers on the bottom, that is usually gg. Jitte is also surprisingly good against them.
Scruffy, I am using the Harriers in the Isamaru slots. They should come in handy holding down Iona if Karakas is not in play yet. They have been so good in general. I can't see taking them out in this big creature environment now that we have Swords to equip. And I am now getting creaitive in the sb with Harriers in the main. Meekstones are there for Reanimator, progenitus, and possibly stuff like Zoo and aggro Loam. I have not had this much fun experimenting with actual good new tech since the beginnings of this deck. And it's all because of Stoneforge Mystic.
Yes. White cards that start with T from Mirage block on the brain for some reason.
On the Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers note - that guy is surprisingly good. Will he work in D&T? I have no idea. I don't think he is better than Kitchen Finks (finks gains life even if they have the path/swords, is easier on the mana with 8 colorless producing lands, and is a good in non-zoo MUs). The first time I saw him hit the table, I was all "such a bad card to be seeing play in Legacy." But then I played against the cavaliers at a recent local tournament. I was playing Canadian Thresh, and pretty much the only thing I could do about cavaliers (once it resolved) was run a goyf into it. Even that is sometimes difficult, since getting goyf to 4/5+ doesn't always happen (or at least doesn't happen while cavaliers is the only thing on the board). There are always other things you want to hit with Fire, and Nimble Mongoose does not like to see 4 toughness guys with vigilance.
Being able to block nacatl/goose all day AND bash back is really good. Forcing them to double burn is awesome (as long as that burn isn't fireblast, but if they aren't pointing that card at your face things are not going according to plan). Put some pants on the cavaliers and he is pretty hard to stop. Vigilance is just really good in the format - it is most of the reason Serra Avenger is even worth looking at.
And I know people hate running three drops, so the cavaliers seems pretty slow. Just don't completely write off a 3/4 vigilance in this format (I mean, Rhox War Monk is seeing play). Ugr Thresh, Zoo, merfolk, and goblins are all going to have trouble dealing with a 3/4 vigilance. Turn 3 is kinda slow, and we don't want to overload on 3 drops, but I think he is worth taking a look at. Maybe he will work in someone's build.
This is the list I have built atm. It is fluidly changing as I scramble to have something best suited to handle what I expect to see at 5k Orlando on Mar 28.
I've been keeping Sword of Light and Shadow in the sideboard but it will likely earn a MD slot. The maindeck Finks have been awesome for me in my meta, as well as Mother of Runes. It's awesome having Flickerwisp target a persisted Finks. I love the new changes that are occurring with this deck.
Finn your list looks like 56 cards. What are the other 4 mother of runes?
If you couldn't see at first, Mother of runes is at the top of his list, besides the sub title "Dudes."
How has everyone been finding the other equipment other than jitte? Since we have no means of returning it to play once it gets destroyed, I thought having multiple copies would be a good idea since it is the best equipment out there. Being able to search for it with mystic is awesome but there's no way to reanimate it =/.
P-AiR, to my extreme surprise I rarely tutor up the Jitte! I have found that I am getting the weaponry for their protection and size increase. Between Mother of Runes, the protection, and the Harriers, I don't think I have ever had a problem connecting. I am sure the situation will come up, but it has not yet. Or perhaps it has once. I am not sure, but I am confident in my ability to connect in every game.
Also, the Grunt's ability to recycle equipment is pleasant, but it has only come in handy once so far.
I have not tried the Meekstone yet. It is my latest addition, and a response to seeing just too damned much Iona.
So I am seriously messing with this deck these days. Has anyone else tested Harm's Way? I have most of the matchups under control except for Rock and Zoo. It is Zoo I want to get a good plan for. The problem is that the common dfenses are designed to buy you time to take control. Our problem is that our control cards don't work on a deck with ~14 removal spells. Let me show you what has not worked well in this particular matchup so far.
Runed Halo - Acts as a weak removal spell. Good in other matchups, but not this one. Goldmeadow Harrier - Much the same as Runed Halo. Not a bad card to have, but insufficient here. Perimeter Captain - This buys some time, but not as much as you may think. If it does not catch a Path or STP, it simply takes a hit and feels lightning. I gain 2 life and one less attacker worth of damage. Not a significant help for a sb card. Path to Exile - I just HATE this card. I always seem to regret using it. Kitchen Finks - They aren't terrible, but too little too late is what they are.
The match commonly comes down to me getting a critter to connect with one of the Swords equipped. THAT is the only likely path to victory as far as I can tell. I am thinking that Harm's Way could help here. Has anyone tried this? Does anyone have any useful insight into this matchup? Are there other strategies that have worked for anyone else?
Hey Dargaud, I am on my phone here so I won't be posting a deck. My build is evolving very rapidly atm. I moved Children around a bit. I discovered that you are golden with them in hand and a vial set to 1 against ANT. They have to have Thoughtseize and bounce to avoid it.
Right now, however I don't even have that card. I have 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender in that spot. And my sb has changed radically. After switching to a sb based on Enlightened Tutor I have discovered that the Reanimator matchup is pretty good. So I am backing off of several previous plans including Meekstones. I am looking for something I can board in against aggro too. I have 3 Wing Shards right now. Pretty nifty selection of decks it hoses if it works out. I have little practice with it so far, but I gather it is hard to prevent it from killing Progenitus even if they nail it with Counterbalance. You just need another spell that turn to guaranree it. And I am hoping to get much needed card advantage against zoo and Gobs with it.
I haven't played with a complete Death and Taxes build, but as a player of another similar type of white control deck, I find that some matchups just have that CC that you can't dodge, as you were saying with the 14 removal. My fix, a true killer especially in the Zoo matchup has been Soltari Priest.
I was hesitant to use him at first, but he's been in my build for a good year now and I never regret getting into a stalemate where one is afraid to attack the other and dropping a shadow beater. Zoo then has to rely on their Paths to get there, because he's pro burn.
Private Mod Note
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I play:
Block Tiny Leaders:
Theros Block / Anax & Cymede
Return to Ravnica Block / Vorel of the Hull Clade
Khans of Tarkir Block / Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
While I'm able to see merits in cutting Jotun Grunt depending on your specific meta, don't ever think about cutting Flickerwisp. It's awesome, and awesome alone.
While I'm able to see merits in cutting Jotun Grunt depending on your specific meta, don't ever think about cutting Flickerwisp. It's awesome, and awesome alone.
Trust me I know how valuable he is, but with Sword of Light and Shadow I haven't been having any problem with recurrsion so I feel like 3 copies will be enough. But then again that's what testing is for so if the Intrepid Hero bombs or I'm having trouble finding Flickerwisp I will go back and adjust.
Are there other strategies that have worked for anyone else?
I haven't tried it, but many pages back someone suggested Brave the Elements. It's an interesting card; doesn't get any cheaper, and it can be used defensively and offensively.
To your earlier questions, several people suggested Epochrasite. I sided him in once BY ACCIDENT (I'm such a good player) and he was not too shabby.
Using Finn's build as a reference I am testing:
+2 Intrepid Hero
If you want to run Intrepid Hero, you might as well run Preacher instead. If you want to run Preacher, you might run a one-of Diamond Valley (if you can afford them).
Dargaud, I do not recommend that one. The sb was a hack job to see what I could get away with. As colo mentioned, gy hate used to be an afterthought as we simply had Stonecloaker (and Grunt, and for awhile Samurai of the Pale Curtain). And I am afraid it has gone this long since I bothered to get my sb in order since the changes. Here's again, an update.
Note that I am going back to 3 Wastelands. I kinda figured this would happen. I think we still need 11 Plains. This sb is superior imo, as it has entire other areas that it protects while retaining 10 slots for combo hate. In short, there are cards to bring in against a wider variety of opponents. The Burrentons in the main are a sore spot for me. I would much rather prefer a card with wider application. And I would if Zoo weren't so big. That imo is THE contentious spot.
Children of Korlis would be nice.
Isamaru is occasionally the better choice.
I could even see a good argument for extra removal.
How's stoneforge been for you? Well, that goes for everyone. I'm not sure if I should get my hands on them or not. But I really want to try putting a jitte in the deck to include the swords of fire and ice etc for the protection.
When do you side in enlightened tutors btw?
I've never asked you before but what is the main reason you include BFT? Simply for dredge? And possibly red decks (burn etc?)
Dargaud, I do not recommend that one. The sb was a hack job to see what I could get away with. As colo mentioned, gy hate used to be an afterthought as we simply had Stonecloaker (and Grunt, and for awhile Samurai of the Pale Curtain). And I am afraid it has gone this long since I bothered to get my sb in order since the changes. Here's again, an update.
Note that I am going back to 3 Wastelands. I kinda figured this would happen. I think we still need 11 Plains. This sb is superior imo, as it has entire other areas that it protects while retaining 10 slots for combo hate. In short, there are cards to bring in against a wider variety of opponents. The Burrentons in the main are a sore spot for me. I would much rather prefer a card with wider application. And I would if Zoo weren't so big. That imo is THE contentious spot.
Children of Korlis would be nice.
Isamaru is occasionally the better choice.
I could even see a good argument for extra removal.
CoV at 0 is excellent, but overall I don't like the Enlightened Tutor set-up. Personally, I think it is too slow and I think the sideboard is over-weighted towards combo.
Also, I think Meekstone is a powerhouse. I find it to be the most useful sideboard card I have.
I'll be doing some testing against combo but white has a lot of great cards in that matchup:
orim's chant
angel's grace
children of korlis
true believe
runed halo
But I would definitely want to test out chalice since putting it at 0 would make it one of the fastest answers to combo and most reliable.
Quite surprised at the price jump of karakas lately, like Finn said, I hope you guys got all your copies already.
From 12-15 a piece, they've jumped to what? 30-40?
Been seeing a huge amount of reanimator decks, not too sure how I should approach dealing with it. Mana Tithe? Tormod's crypt?
vs dredge, BFT is pretty good at removing their bridges, and if you stick an early Grunt and put all of their dredgers on the bottom, that is usually gg. Jitte is also surprisingly good against them.
Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
Yes. White cards that start with T from Mirage block on the brain for some reason.
On the Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers note - that guy is surprisingly good. Will he work in D&T? I have no idea. I don't think he is better than Kitchen Finks (finks gains life even if they have the path/swords, is easier on the mana with 8 colorless producing lands, and is a good in non-zoo MUs). The first time I saw him hit the table, I was all "such a bad card to be seeing play in Legacy." But then I played against the cavaliers at a recent local tournament. I was playing Canadian Thresh, and pretty much the only thing I could do about cavaliers (once it resolved) was run a goyf into it. Even that is sometimes difficult, since getting goyf to 4/5+ doesn't always happen (or at least doesn't happen while cavaliers is the only thing on the board). There are always other things you want to hit with Fire, and Nimble Mongoose does not like to see 4 toughness guys with vigilance.
Being able to block nacatl/goose all day AND bash back is really good. Forcing them to double burn is awesome (as long as that burn isn't fireblast, but if they aren't pointing that card at your face things are not going according to plan). Put some pants on the cavaliers and he is pretty hard to stop. Vigilance is just really good in the format - it is most of the reason Serra Avenger is even worth looking at.
And I know people hate running three drops, so the cavaliers seems pretty slow. Just don't completely write off a 3/4 vigilance in this format (I mean, Rhox War Monk is seeing play). Ugr Thresh, Zoo, merfolk, and goblins are all going to have trouble dealing with a 3/4 vigilance. Turn 3 is kinda slow, and we don't want to overload on 3 drops, but I think he is worth taking a look at. Maybe he will work in someone's build.
Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
4 Mother of Runes
3 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Land
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
10 Plains
3 Orim's Chant
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Children of Korlis
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Meekstone
There, I did a better job of tagging it.
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3x Mother of Runes
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Serra Avenger
3x Kitchen Finks
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Wasteland
4x Karakas
14x Plains
I've been keeping Sword of Light and Shadow in the sideboard but it will likely earn a MD slot. The maindeck Finks have been awesome for me in my meta, as well as Mother of Runes. It's awesome having Flickerwisp target a persisted Finks. I love the new changes that are occurring with this deck.
If you couldn't see at first, Mother of runes is at the top of his list, besides the sub title "Dudes."
How has everyone been finding the other equipment other than jitte? Since we have no means of returning it to play once it gets destroyed, I thought having multiple copies would be a good idea since it is the best equipment out there. Being able to search for it with mystic is awesome but there's no way to reanimate it =/.
Also, the Grunt's ability to recycle equipment is pleasant, but it has only come in handy once so far.
I have not tried the Meekstone yet. It is my latest addition, and a response to seeing just too damned much Iona.
Modern
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
RWGBurnGWR
Legacy
UWStonebladeWU
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Flagstones of Trokair
CREATURES
4 Serra Avenger
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Orim's Chant
3 Retribution of the Meek
3 Perimeter Captain
2 Children of Korlis
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Ethersworn Canonist
Played this in a tournament today, took 18th of 31 (ick), going 2-2-1. I was expecting a ton of zoo, and not one single person played it.
Round 1 - Enchantress (L 1-2)
Round 2 - Dredge (L 0-2)
Round 3 - Rock (W 2-0)
Round 4 - Thopter Combo (T 1-1-1)
Round 5 - Black Weenie (W 2-1)
Overall thoughts: I hate combo. I really hate combo. Goldmeadow Harrier, Stoneforge Mystic, Mangara of Corondor and Mother of Runes really pulled their weight today. I found myself never wanting Umezawa's Jitte. Didn't face any Zoo or Progenitus so my sideboard kinda sucked. I like the addition of the Wastelands as well.
Runed Halo - Acts as a weak removal spell. Good in other matchups, but not this one.
Goldmeadow Harrier - Much the same as Runed Halo. Not a bad card to have, but insufficient here.
Perimeter Captain - This buys some time, but not as much as you may think. If it does not catch a Path or STP, it simply takes a hit and feels lightning. I gain 2 life and one less attacker worth of damage. Not a significant help for a sb card.
Path to Exile - I just HATE this card. I always seem to regret using it.
Kitchen Finks - They aren't terrible, but too little too late is what they are.
The match commonly comes down to me getting a critter to connect with one of the Swords equipped. THAT is the only likely path to victory as far as I can tell. I am thinking that Harm's Way could help here. Has anyone tried this? Does anyone have any useful insight into this matchup? Are there other strategies that have worked for anyone else?
Right now, however I don't even have that card. I have 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender in that spot. And my sb has changed radically. After switching to a sb based on Enlightened Tutor I have discovered that the Reanimator matchup is pretty good. So I am backing off of several previous plans including Meekstones. I am looking for something I can board in against aggro too. I have 3 Wing Shards right now. Pretty nifty selection of decks it hoses if it works out. I have little practice with it so far, but I gather it is hard to prevent it from killing Progenitus even if they nail it with Counterbalance. You just need another spell that turn to guaranree it. And I am hoping to get much needed card advantage against zoo and Gobs with it.
Ideas most welcome.
I was hesitant to use him at first, but he's been in my build for a good year now and I never regret getting into a stalemate where one is afraid to attack the other and dropping a shadow beater. Zoo then has to rely on their Paths to get there, because he's pro burn.
Theros Block / Anax & Cymede
Return to Ravnica Block / Vorel of the Hull Clade
Khans of Tarkir Block / Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
Peasant:
Kuldotha Red
Commander:
Maga, Traitor to Mortals
-1 Flickerwisp
-1 Jotun Grunt
and
+2 Intrepid Hero
I'm thinking it will help some, but we'll see.
Also, Meekstone is the all-star of the reanimator matchup. Iona is cake with Karakas. It's a complete lock on Inkwell Leviathan
I hate myself everytime I draw the second jotun.
Trust me I know how valuable he is, but with Sword of Light and Shadow I haven't been having any problem with recurrsion so I feel like 3 copies will be enough. But then again that's what testing is for so if the Intrepid Hero bombs or I'm having trouble finding Flickerwisp I will go back and adjust.
I haven't tried it, but many pages back someone suggested Brave the Elements. It's an interesting card; doesn't get any cheaper, and it can be used defensively and offensively.
To your earlier questions, several people suggested Epochrasite. I sided him in once BY ACCIDENT (I'm such a good player) and he was not too shabby.
If you want to run Intrepid Hero, you might as well run Preacher instead. If you want to run Preacher, you might run a one-of Diamond Valley (if you can afford them).
Ever since Tarmogoyf hit Legacy, this has been a tempting choice. Needs a black/white build to be the bizzomb.
J
Stonecloaker used to make getting rid of that crap easier.
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Flickerwisp
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
4 Karakas
11 Plains
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Runed Halo
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Orim's Chant
3 Wing Shards
Note that I am going back to 3 Wastelands. I kinda figured this would happen. I think we still need 11 Plains. This sb is superior imo, as it has entire other areas that it protects while retaining 10 slots for combo hate. In short, there are cards to bring in against a wider variety of opponents. The Burrentons in the main are a sore spot for me. I would much rather prefer a card with wider application. And I would if Zoo weren't so big. That imo is THE contentious spot.
Children of Korlis would be nice.
Isamaru is occasionally the better choice.
I could even see a good argument for extra removal.
BTW, I hope you all bought your Karakas already.
When do you side in enlightened tutors btw?
I've never asked you before but what is the main reason you include BFT? Simply for dredge? And possibly red decks (burn etc?)
Also, I think Meekstone is a powerhouse. I find it to be the most useful sideboard card I have.
orim's chant
angel's grace
children of korlis
true believe
runed halo
But I would definitely want to test out chalice since putting it at 0 would make it one of the fastest answers to combo and most reliable.
Quite surprised at the price jump of karakas lately, like Finn said, I hope you guys got all your copies already.
From 12-15 a piece, they've jumped to what? 30-40?