I'm certainly not competent to decide who's a "poor player" or not. Sometimes I can spot play mistakes in tournament reports, but making mistakes and being a poor player are quite different things. I make plenty of play mistakes myself, even when playing a simple deck like burn.
I DID however think that your argument was poor, which is something else entirely. That argument being that it doesn't matter if you play 18 or 19 or 20 lands, because you can get mana flooded/shorted either way. And I do like to point out logical fallacies - probably not a very endearing personality trait, but apparently I do.
Good luck with your testing (I don't think Needle will disappoint you in the tournament) and don't hesitate to post your report here. I promise I'll be gentle
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Nm, just messing around I'd cut 1 browbeat for the mountain, unless you swap browbeat for sulfuric vortex - then I'd cut a chain of plasma/incinerate instead.
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The best amount of end-game land to have is probably around 3.5 to account for things like the odd 3-drop and Daze. It's just about impossible to win against a competent player with 1 land even with an endless stream of bolts, and even at 2 land you are significantly constrained as you eventually run out of 1-drops. Let's go a higher than optimal number. At 5 land, you are slightly slowed, and at 6-7 land in the first 5 turns, you're probably not going to win.
However, 5 land is in general more playable than 2. You might be a bit slower, but you still have options and your damage per turn can stay high as you wait for more burn. If you're mana screwed, your damage per turn cannot stay high as you wait for more land, which are in turn statistically harder to find. Lastly, factor in the usefulness of Magma Jet in getting rid of mid-game mana flood but less significant effects at getting rid of mid-game mana screw.
In the end, I'd rather see more land rather than fewer in my games, so I run 19. This relatively high number allows me to use two Shard Volleys. Having cards that get rid of upwards of 12 land for the sake of damage (8 for Fireblast, 2 Shard Volley, 2 B.Ring) has never been a problem in my games, especially since the first two help the last one. Having more mana allows for fast starts, while the sac-land effects continue consistency through the mid to late game.
Older doc explaining my thoughts: http://www.curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm While it's a bit out of date, I'm not sure how I'd change it. Manamorphose is rather silly, but at the same time I'm not convinced that Hellspark is the way to go in my creature-filled casual meta. (Flamebreak is used because of the aforementioned meta.)
I love that card survey kirby, I've browsed through it several times in the past. I also prefer a bit more lands, cause there's always that sinkhole, devastating dreams or smokestack as well. Plus I run 8 3cc spells and want to make my third land drop as often as possible. And there's the mull issue... If you only keep 2-4 land hands, 20 is optimal.
Masa - Yeah, I thought the list looked good overall, apart from the points I brought up. Thanks for the article comment
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People who claim it's good say that it's a win-win - but in reality it isn't. You are giving your opponent choice in what happens next. The only time choice cards are playable or good is when you can set up the choice such that there isn't a correct decision.
That is why cards like Fact or Fiction and Gifts Given are considered good, and why cards like Browbeat are considered bad.
Claiming a card is good because it helped you out in a single game is not objective thinking. The fact that you hit a 3 land clump is unfortunate, but is more likely explained by insufficient shuffling than browbeat saving you from certain death.
If your opponent has excess life, they'll take the hit and leave you without gas. If not, they'll let you draw cards and it will stall you a turn or two. This is more of a win-win for your opponent, who normally doesn't have a choice in the matter.
You'd be better off running more solid burn and running a few utility lands (either barbarian rings or cycle lands) than running browbeat. And shuffle more.
Urf, no Cycle lands. The only thing I'd ever want to do with a Cycling land is Cycle it, because in any other situation it's slowing me down by a turn. Burn wants to make the first 3-4 land drops in the game and receive no more land, meaning that every land drop has to land untapped and ready to support the burn.
So let's look at cycling then. If the only point is to cycle, I'd rather use Street Wraith or Manamorphose. My (old) list uses the latter because of Flame Rift, Flamebreak, and B.Ring pain.
Any deck will from time to time get mana screwed or flooded. We have the added advantage of Magma Jet, but in the end you still have to mull intelligently.
Hey, I've been contemplating making a Legacy deck, and figured for my first one might as well do a burn deck. This is the list I was thinking about building, any suggestions?
Hey, I've been contemplating making a Legacy deck, and figured for my first one might as well do a burn deck. This is the list I was thinking about building, any suggestions?
One thing I dislike about it is the Hellspark Elemental. Its a possibility of 6 damage, but also a high probability of 0 damage (Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Swords to Plowshares, first strikers, etc). It might be better off as an Incinerate, but its always depending on your playstyle and meta.
Also, if your meta is well developed, Price of Progress is very good as a 4x. If not, then maybe as a SB?
The only thing I dislike about it is the Hellspark Elemental. Its a possibility of 6 damage, but also a high probability of 0 damage (Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Swords to Plowshares, first strikers, etc). It might be better off as an Incinerate, but its always depending on your playstyle and meta.
Well, honestly, since none of my friends really play Legacy, and I probably need to find people to play Legacy with, I have no clue what the meta is like. It doesn't help me that the local game store I go to is about 50 miles away.
I'm mostly getting a bit bored with Standard and was looking for something new to work on outside of EDH.
0 Hellsparks, 4/0, 3/1, 2/2 PoPs depending on meta, and yeah 3 sweepers for most metas, though this number should probably increase gradually as aggro gets more popular.
I don't understand the love for Volcanic Fallout. It's smaller than Flamebreak and not any faster. Sure you hit fliers, but the big swarms are still land-based: Goblins, Merfolk, and Elves. Also Watchwolf, Nacatl, Kird Ape. Countermagic isn't really an issue when they have two Lords out and render your spell useless anyway. Against Elves and Goblins you want even more speed and power, while countermagic is entirely irrelevant. If you need an early sweeper, use Cave-In. I'm ready to be convinced otherwise. =)
Haven't made one yet, was focusing on the building a deck part first. I'm still learning all the different deck types in Legacy so I'm not sure what to put in there yet.
Haven't made one yet, was focusing on the building a deck part first. I'm still learning all the different deck types in Legacy so I'm not sure what to put in there yet.
A good staple is either Smash to Smithereens or Shattering Spree, as most decks have at least one annoying artifact (The Rack, Arcbound Ravager, Jitte, SoFI, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, etc).
Re: Jitte, instant speed burn doesn't seem to be much of an issue, as every burn deck has plenty. The question is when you'll need an instant speed sweeper. If he's trying to equip Jitte, why not just Magma Jet it for one less mana? If it's being equipped to a Kird Ape, Volcanic won't help anyway. Equipping a Jitte isn't like casting a Lord. It affects one creature, and part of a sweeper's power is wasted when used against a single creature.
Regarding swarms of */1 and */2 fliers, when does that actually happen? Vampire Nighthawk, Trygon Predator, and Serra Avenger smile at you and continue to swing in. Hypnotic Specter is a clear counterexample, but you better kill it the minute it hits the board, or you might not even have any sweeper in hand by the time you get three mana.
Sure it's the best sweeper against Merfs, but if we're already strong against them we can and should concentrate our thoughts elsewhere.
On the other hand, it is certainly useful in conjunction with B.Ring to finish off a counter-happy opp's last points, and it's true that Flamebreak won't hit manlands.
Few cards are worthless, and Volcanic isn't one of them. It has its uses, but the answer is more meta-dependent than a simple "just run Volcanic and be done with it." After all, Zoo's getting more popular...
I sleeve both and do some scouting before finalizing my deck. The reason is that Spree is harder to counter (Chalice doesn't counter copies, each copy has to be separately FoWed), but StS has the advantage of furthering your game plan by sending damage to the dome. In other words, even against a deck using jank equipment or other non-gamebreaking artifacts, you can side in StS to (1) slow them down and (2) keep going at full speed. With a narrow card such as Spree, you have to choose between the disruption of siding it in and the damage of leaving it out, but you can be sure that the disruption has a much better chance of landing.
If there is a bunch of Chalice decks, Countertop, etc. running around, you'll definitely want Spree, as you might never be able to resolve StS at all. Otherwise, consider the fact that StS can basically replace your second class burn such as Incinerate, and provide both disruption and damage at the same mana cost.
Yes it is. Anarchy cost 4 mana, which will be problem many times. I would prefer Torment.
Wow, that's cool. I've seen the card but never realized its usefulness for Burn. It gets rid of protection from red's damage prevention so now we can kill things like Silver Knights, albeit only with sweepers. Protection still works to prevent targeting.
Wow, that's cool. I've seen the card but never realized its usefulness for Burn. It gets rid of protection from red's damage prevention so now we can kill things like Silver Knights, albeit only with sweepers. Protection still works to prevent targeting.
While true, that doesn't mean it actually solves the same problems as Anarchy. I would never really consider them in the same slot. Anarchy deals with a broader range of white targets (and a smaller range of all decks). But the board is there to stop the cards we can't beat, and while protection is a nuisance, it's nothing compared to Solitary Confinement. Anarchy is there for those white enchants and other cards we just can't do anything about otherwise.
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I edit after I post... just a heads up.
Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Good point. Who runs Solitary besides Enchantress though? Pro red with Jitte is as good as game over though, and Torment doesn't stop the clock but at least stops the life gain. They're down from the options of race and outlast to simply race. Still not easy but (1) you have a chance to kill before Jitte equips and (2) you've taken away an option from their playbook.
Of course, white's the king of disenchanting...
EDIT: Ok I'm overstating Jitte's effect, as we usually sideboard artifact removal. At the same time, even two turns with an active Jitte makes our job much harder. In the end it's probably a matter of metagame, like most things.
@Arew: Nice to see you here. Lists looks good - MD is almost exactly what I run. Hope you'll enjoy burn and legacy.
Few cards are worthless, and Volcanic isn't one of them. It has its uses, but the answer is more meta-dependent than a simple "just run Volcanic and be done with it." After all, Zoo's getting more popular...
I think it also comes down to what other stuff you put into your deck. When it comes to the sweeper slot, you can choose to be a bit stronger against Ichorid, Merfolk and Dreadstill - or a bit stronger against Zoo and Elves.
Now let's say you play Hellspark Elemental. That's also pretty good against Ichorid and anything with Counterbalance. So maybe you can afford to play Flamebreak then, to strengthen the Zoo and Elves games?
OTOH, let's say you play Keldon Marauders - an excellent card against Zoo and Elves. Then perhaps it's better to play Fallout for better game against Ichorid and Counterbalance decks?
I like to have a little something for everyone in the deck, but I could see some builds using Flamebreak.
@Everlasting Torment: I don't think this is a good SB option overall, but it's a good solution to Sphere of Law in Armageddon Stax, where 4 mana will be hard to come by.
My favorite tactic against Enchantress is Pithing Needle on Sterling Grove. Most versions only run 1-2 copies of Solitary Confinement, and 1-2 copies of art/ench removal (Aura of Silence usually). They do run 4x Replenish however, so when you go Anarchy, there's always a risk your big play will be nullified and you'll still be locked out next turn. Needle is faster and doesn't disrupt your game plan as much - plus it's SO much more versatile in your SB.
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Yeah Pithing Needle can also nerf Jitte. I hate Jitte (and Hymn to Tourach) when playing burn. Each turn with an active Jitte or discarded burn spell is a time walk or more for the opp.
Any thoughts about Sulfuric Vortex in the main? Every deck's got 4 Pridemages now, and of course the second goal of burn is to nullify all removal besides Sinkhole (and Hymn, grrr). I agree that it's very tempting, but it reminds me a lot of Ankh designs, which while arguably better against the fetch-happy, loam-happy, crucible-happy multicolor decks of Legacy, aren't really used at all.
I agree that Ankh has to be played early if at all. There are good reasons why it's not used, but one of the main ones also applies to Vortex: the use of permanents other than basic lands opens you up to a lot of removal.
For those who actually maindeck Vortexes, what are your experiences with its utility compared to its vulnerability? Three sweepers and three vortexes already puts the 3drop count up to 6 (not counting Rift Bolt) even before Flames of the Blood Hand and other 4-for-3 spells, so it quickly starts to unbalance our curve.
I DID however think that your argument was poor, which is something else entirely. That argument being that it doesn't matter if you play 18 or 19 or 20 lands, because you can get mana flooded/shorted either way. And I do like to point out logical fallacies - probably not a very endearing personality trait, but apparently I do.
Good luck with your testing (I don't think Needle will disappoint you in the tournament) and don't hesitate to post your report here. I promise I'll be gentle
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However, 5 land is in general more playable than 2. You might be a bit slower, but you still have options and your damage per turn can stay high as you wait for more burn. If you're mana screwed, your damage per turn cannot stay high as you wait for more land, which are in turn statistically harder to find. Lastly, factor in the usefulness of Magma Jet in getting rid of mid-game mana flood but less significant effects at getting rid of mid-game mana screw.
In the end, I'd rather see more land rather than fewer in my games, so I run 19. This relatively high number allows me to use two Shard Volleys. Having cards that get rid of upwards of 12 land for the sake of damage (8 for Fireblast, 2 Shard Volley, 2 B.Ring) has never been a problem in my games, especially since the first two help the last one. Having more mana allows for fast starts, while the sac-land effects continue consistency through the mid to late game.
Older doc explaining my thoughts: http://www.curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm While it's a bit out of date, I'm not sure how I'd change it. Manamorphose is rather silly, but at the same time I'm not convinced that Hellspark is the way to go in my creature-filled casual meta. (Flamebreak is used because of the aforementioned meta.)
2c
P.S. No browbeats.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Masa - Yeah, I thought the list looked good overall, apart from the points I brought up. Thanks for the article comment
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People who claim it's good say that it's a win-win - but in reality it isn't. You are giving your opponent choice in what happens next. The only time choice cards are playable or good is when you can set up the choice such that there isn't a correct decision.
That is why cards like Fact or Fiction and Gifts Given are considered good, and why cards like Browbeat are considered bad.
Claiming a card is good because it helped you out in a single game is not objective thinking. The fact that you hit a 3 land clump is unfortunate, but is more likely explained by insufficient shuffling than browbeat saving you from certain death.
If your opponent has excess life, they'll take the hit and leave you without gas. If not, they'll let you draw cards and it will stall you a turn or two. This is more of a win-win for your opponent, who normally doesn't have a choice in the matter.
You'd be better off running more solid burn and running a few utility lands (either barbarian rings or cycle lands) than running browbeat. And shuffle more.
So let's look at cycling then. If the only point is to cycle, I'd rather use Street Wraith or Manamorphose. My (old) list uses the latter because of Flame Rift, Flamebreak, and B.Ring pain.
Any deck will from time to time get mana screwed or flooded. We have the added advantage of Magma Jet, but in the end you still have to mull intelligently.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
19 Mountains
Creatures
4x Keldon Marauders
4x Hellspark Elemental
Spells
4x Lightning BOlt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
4x Magma Jet
2x Volcanic Fallout
3x Flamebreak
One thing I dislike about it is the Hellspark Elemental. Its a possibility of 6 damage, but also a high probability of 0 damage (Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Swords to Plowshares, first strikers, etc). It might be better off as an Incinerate, but its always depending on your playstyle and meta.
Also, if your meta is well developed, Price of Progress is very good as a 4x. If not, then maybe as a SB?
Well, honestly, since none of my friends really play Legacy, and I probably need to find people to play Legacy with, I have no clue what the meta is like. It doesn't help me that the local game store I go to is about 50 miles away.
I'm mostly getting a bit bored with Standard and was looking for something new to work on outside of EDH.
I don't understand the love for Volcanic Fallout. It's smaller than Flamebreak and not any faster. Sure you hit fliers, but the big swarms are still land-based: Goblins, Merfolk, and Elves. Also Watchwolf, Nacatl, Kird Ape. Countermagic isn't really an issue when they have two Lords out and render your spell useless anyway. Against Elves and Goblins you want even more speed and power, while countermagic is entirely irrelevant. If you need an early sweeper, use Cave-In. I'm ready to be convinced otherwise. =)
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
19 Mountains
Creatures
4x Keldon Marauders
Spells
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
4x Magma Jet
3x Incinerate
3x Sulfuric Vortex
Sweepers
3x Volcanic Fallout
Is what I've got now, what do you all think?
Looks like a good build for just about anything that comes at you.
Got a sideboard?
A good staple is either Smash to Smithereens or Shattering Spree, as most decks have at least one annoying artifact (The Rack, Arcbound Ravager, Jitte, SoFI, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, etc).
Oh and Red Elemental Blast for Counterbalance and against the Force of Will of your Fireblast and Pyrostatic Pillar for any combo decks, if ever they appear in your area.
2x Pithing Needle
3x Shattering Spree
4x Red Elemental Blast
4x Anarchy
What about that?
That'll keep them on their toes.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Re: Jitte, instant speed burn doesn't seem to be much of an issue, as every burn deck has plenty. The question is when you'll need an instant speed sweeper. If he's trying to equip Jitte, why not just Magma Jet it for one less mana? If it's being equipped to a Kird Ape, Volcanic won't help anyway. Equipping a Jitte isn't like casting a Lord. It affects one creature, and part of a sweeper's power is wasted when used against a single creature.
Regarding swarms of */1 and */2 fliers, when does that actually happen? Vampire Nighthawk, Trygon Predator, and Serra Avenger smile at you and continue to swing in. Hypnotic Specter is a clear counterexample, but you better kill it the minute it hits the board, or you might not even have any sweeper in hand by the time you get three mana.
Sure it's the best sweeper against Merfs, but if we're already strong against them we can and should concentrate our thoughts elsewhere.
On the other hand, it is certainly useful in conjunction with B.Ring to finish off a counter-happy opp's last points, and it's true that Flamebreak won't hit manlands.
Few cards are worthless, and Volcanic isn't one of them. It has its uses, but the answer is more meta-dependent than a simple "just run Volcanic and be done with it." After all, Zoo's getting more popular...
I sleeve both and do some scouting before finalizing my deck. The reason is that Spree is harder to counter (Chalice doesn't counter copies, each copy has to be separately FoWed), but StS has the advantage of furthering your game plan by sending damage to the dome. In other words, even against a deck using jank equipment or other non-gamebreaking artifacts, you can side in StS to (1) slow them down and (2) keep going at full speed. With a narrow card such as Spree, you have to choose between the disruption of siding it in and the damage of leaving it out, but you can be sure that the disruption has a much better chance of landing.
If there is a bunch of Chalice decks, Countertop, etc. running around, you'll definitely want Spree, as you might never be able to resolve StS at all. Otherwise, consider the fact that StS can basically replace your second class burn such as Incinerate, and provide both disruption and damage at the same mana cost.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Wow, that's cool. I've seen the card but never realized its usefulness for Burn. It gets rid of protection from red's damage prevention so now we can kill things like Silver Knights, albeit only with sweepers. Protection still works to prevent targeting.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
While true, that doesn't mean it actually solves the same problems as Anarchy. I would never really consider them in the same slot. Anarchy deals with a broader range of white targets (and a smaller range of all decks). But the board is there to stop the cards we can't beat, and while protection is a nuisance, it's nothing compared to Solitary Confinement. Anarchy is there for those white enchants and other cards we just can't do anything about otherwise.
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Of course, white's the king of disenchanting...
EDIT: Ok I'm overstating Jitte's effect, as we usually sideboard artifact removal. At the same time, even two turns with an active Jitte makes our job much harder. In the end it's probably a matter of metagame, like most things.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I think it also comes down to what other stuff you put into your deck. When it comes to the sweeper slot, you can choose to be a bit stronger against Ichorid, Merfolk and Dreadstill - or a bit stronger against Zoo and Elves.
Now let's say you play Hellspark Elemental. That's also pretty good against Ichorid and anything with Counterbalance. So maybe you can afford to play Flamebreak then, to strengthen the Zoo and Elves games?
OTOH, let's say you play Keldon Marauders - an excellent card against Zoo and Elves. Then perhaps it's better to play Fallout for better game against Ichorid and Counterbalance decks?
I like to have a little something for everyone in the deck, but I could see some builds using Flamebreak.
@Everlasting Torment: I don't think this is a good SB option overall, but it's a good solution to Sphere of Law in Armageddon Stax, where 4 mana will be hard to come by.
My favorite tactic against Enchantress is Pithing Needle on Sterling Grove. Most versions only run 1-2 copies of Solitary Confinement, and 1-2 copies of art/ench removal (Aura of Silence usually). They do run 4x Replenish however, so when you go Anarchy, there's always a risk your big play will be nullified and you'll still be locked out next turn. Needle is faster and doesn't disrupt your game plan as much - plus it's SO much more versatile in your SB.
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"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
Any thoughts about Sulfuric Vortex in the main? Every deck's got 4 Pridemages now, and of course the second goal of burn is to nullify all removal besides Sinkhole (and Hymn, grrr). I agree that it's very tempting, but it reminds me a lot of Ankh designs, which while arguably better against the fetch-happy, loam-happy, crucible-happy multicolor decks of Legacy, aren't really used at all.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
For those who actually maindeck Vortexes, what are your experiences with its utility compared to its vulnerability? Three sweepers and three vortexes already puts the 3drop count up to 6 (not counting Rift Bolt) even before Flames of the Blood Hand and other 4-for-3 spells, so it quickly starts to unbalance our curve.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.