Tarmogoyf: This creature is the reason this deck morphed from Red Death to Eva Green. Definitely a 4 of for reasons that need not be stated.
Nantuko Shade: This creature has the potential to go head to head with some of the biggest creatures. This is one of the mid-game beats of the deck, and he does a good job at it. Also, holding back a dark ritual in hand is very useful against an unsuspecting opponent.
Hypnotic Specter: A legend in the world of MTG. This card has proven itself for years and years. A very strong first turn play (via. Dark Ritual). It wins you topdeck wars for the most part, as they can't hold anything back. Very good synergy with Tarmogoyf and Nyxathid (getting more cards to the graveyard and decreasing your opponents hand). He is very useful against control, although its 2 toughness is not the most attractive thing.
Tombstalker: Definitely the gamebreaking creature of the deck. He breaks Tarmo stalls and has evasion. Also, who doesn't love a 2cc 5/5 flyer? Be careful though, he can weaken your own tarmogoyf.
Nyxathid: This is a new addition to the deck and has yet to be widely testing sufficiently. I am currently in the process of doing so, and I must admit, he's not the worst. It makes your late game discard worthwhile as they are going to be holding back cards. Needs some more testing, however.
Putrid Leech: This is a new guy for the deck. He is an early drop, which could rival, or even beat a tarmogoyf at this stage of the game. I would not recommend running if you see a lot of wastelands, as I like keeping as low green casting costs as I can in the deck to avoid such a situation. This could be a budget tarmogoyf, however. I recommend trying him out.
Spells:
Dark Ritual: Again, another legend. This card gives access to very bananas first turn plays. He helps playing tombstalker, as it counts for a big chunk of its cost, by playing ritual, then using it as a delve target. It helps pump shade, etc.
Thoughtseize: an upgrade from Duress after the release of Lorwyn. This card is the best targeted discard. No less than a playset for this deck, as disruption is a very important part of it's plan.
Hymn to Tourach: Even more disruption in the form of random discard. Very strong in the first few turns of a game, although it loses it's glory late game. First turn ritual > thoughtseize > hymn is very strong, however. Also, it hits lands which could, in some cases, be useful.
Sinkhole: Even more disruption, this time in the form of land destruction. The greatest part of this card is its ability to hit basic lands. Sinkhole paired with Wastelands are very strong against most decks.
Snuff Out: Since this a tempo based deck, a free spell is great, especially one that could kill a first turn Goblin Lackey. Although, 4 life is a bit steep, it's still an include for the deck.
Seal of Primordium: This is a debatable slot in the deck. It has many uses, as it can add to tarmo (being the only enchantment in the deck). Also, it can get rid of counterbalance, moat, jitte, etc. Many have been toying with other cards in this slot.
Maelstrom Pulse: Destroying target non-land permanent seems good. I am not convinced on running this card as it takes away from the tempo that this deck is so well known for. It does not do anything that cards already in the deck lack. For example, Krosan Grip and Snuff out hit almost anything you'd need Pulse for. Another card I am not convinced belongs in this deck, but do not hold my words religiously, it could work for you.
Lands:
Wasteland: Very strong in this deck. Wasteland + Sinkhole cause for some very annoying plays.
Polluted Delta/Bloodstained Mire: These are included as 4-ofs because of a variety of reasons. First, they help you get your 4 duals for your green. Second, they thin your deck, which is never something to be angry about. Second, they add to Tombstalker's delve, thus counting as -2 to its cost. Very strong. Also boosts Tarmogoyf
Bayou: Dual lands for green.
Swamp: Given
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Other cards to think about:
Stillmoon Cavalier: A budget Shade, or in a whit/black heavy meta, this guy could shine.
Reanimate: First turn thoughtseize hitting a creature into second turn reanimate is alright by me. Also helps in the late game.
Smother/Edict/Ghastly Demise: Helps clear the way of blockers so your goyfs or shades can hit home.
Cabal Therapy/Duress: If thoughtseize is out of your budget, you can run these.
Vendetta: seems ok as another answer to first turn lackeys, etc.
Blackmail: Can help as a late game discard that can hit lands.
Unearth: Reanimating a goyf or shade isn't that bad, and when it's not needed, you can cycle it.
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Sideboard cards:
Choke: Although, we usually have a good matchup against control decks, Choke still serves as a must counter against a lot of decks. Very strong card.
Engineered Plague: With the increase in players using elves, this is a great sideboard card. Helps also against goblins, and even so far as to name soldiers against Elspeth.
Leyline of the Void: Keeps your opponents graveyard empty for free.
Umezawa's Jitte: Although this card helps with the aggro matchups, it is unneeded, as we have the bigger and more evasive creatures. Some may debate against and for this. I am currently sitting on the Against side.
Krosan Grips: Gets rid of Moat, Balance, etc. One of the reasons to even include green to this deck.
Extirpate: good against a variety of decks, gets rid of main threats in decks with few win-cons. Debatable slot, however.
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Why Dark Confidant is bad.
There's been plenty a time that I have gotten asked why I don't include Bob in the build. The reasons are many against his inclusion. First, Bob + stalker is a very bad thing to see. We play 4 stalkers with no library manipulation at all. Secondly, he gives no pressure to your opponent. We want to be throwing down threats, not something that could potentially lead to threats. Third, we already lose a lot of life in the form of fetches and thoughtseize, adding one more thing that makes us lose life is just bad.
Thresh (Favorable): Usually this match is in your favor, although the white version gives you a run for your money. This is due to their swords to plowshares, this deck's most hated card. The red version also hits your hyppies and early shades, but still not too big a deal. Make sure you don't go too low with your life against the red version. Any other version is alright and you shouldn't have a problem. Remember, only play your threats when you know it's safe, or you've sufficiently disrupted them. If you thoughtseize and you see two STPs, please don't play your tarmogoyf.
Goblins (Very Favorable): This is a game highly in our favor. Snuff out is a good answer to turn one lackey and dropping a tarmogoyf just ruins their day. Don't play shade without at least one swamp untapped simply in case they drop a mogg fanatic. Specter and Tombstalker are your best friends here. Don't let them get too much board position and you should be good. Plagues from the board make this match even better post-board.
Dredge (very unfavorable): This is a very bad match-up for us. We need to race them, which is hard in a lot of cases. Also, our discard could potentially be in their favor. Snuffing out your own creature to get rid of a bridge is sometimes needed. Leylines and plagues come in against them.
Combo: (favorable): Most of the current combo is in our favor. We have enough disruption of all kinds (seize, sinkhole, hymn, wasteland, hypnotic specter, etc) to hold our own against combo. Nothing in the sideboard helps against this match-up, but you shouldn't need to worry too much.
Elves (slightly unfavorable): Elves have something that goblins don't and this is mana acceleration. Letting them get too many elves early on is a very bad thing. I tend to keep a sinkhole and snuff out for first turn Forest > Mana elf. For having 3 mana for an elf player on turn 2 is a bad thing for us.
Aggro Loam (unfavorable): We basically need to race them and get our disruption to hit fast. Usually they stall or beat us down with their bigger creatures and have more ways to kill us than we can handle or race (such as seismic assault).
Stax (slightly favorable): This basically comes down to whoever plays first. A first turn 3sphere ruins our day and makes ritual useless. Hypnotic specter and tombstalker can help us over moat, but STPs aren't our best friends.
Burn (unfavorable): With 8 fetches + thoughtseize, burn becomes too much to handle. We need a quick tarmo or tombstalker to even stand a chance against burn. Definitely not what you want to play against.
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If you have any questions or debates (other than Grip vs Seal), please feel free to post. Also, other match-ups or more in-depth views on the ones posted are greatly appreciated.
I have been playing this for sometime and have tried several things. One card that has been extremly helpful is Pernicious Deed in the slot of choice spot just my 2 cents. And with dark ritual it can be funny. It does make the deck play different than the traditional list. I am seeing alot of vial type decks zombie clerics, merfolk, and mono white aggro. Also affinity seems to have came back. Affinity was the main reason for deed. Also leyline is great against affinity no disciple no modular haha. Then blow up deed drop stalker win.
Which I did try Seal of Primordium and putrefy and did like putrefy better but seemed slow for the deck.
In my list I run the traditional list with these changes
-1 nantuko shade
I know not playing sinkhole is a sin but i have had better luck with the duress and extirpate. Especially extirpate. I usually save them till late game and pick apart what will stop me plus get a peek at someones hand.
Because the deck I run has more discard I have been thinking about nyaxthid. Has anyone tried him with succes? I would take shade out for him being the best switch as a three off. I think four is to many.
As for putrefy, it was so bad, i forgot about it ;). Seriously, its not a card for this deck, too slow when you have much better alternatives.
And to address Deed, I very deliberately disregarded it for this primer. Deed would make this deck play like much more of a rock variation than a suicide deck. First, it's mana intensive, which means it's basically a late game card. Second, it really gives no disruption at all and third, it takes from the aggro feel of the deck to a more control feel.
If you are facing a meta full of vial, creature -heavy decks, then by all means, if it suits you, play it in the meta slot, but I wouldn't recommend it
Also, you have an even more control version of the deck with the Extirpates and added discard of Duress. Thoughtseize +Hymn are not enough for you?
Yes it does play more controlish than the typical build given the more discard and deed. I like having ten discard spells I think it is a perfect number(plus hippie). For me at least. This is why I am considering nyaxthid.
reason for choices (from what I have played against that are considerd unfavorable matchups)
Deed: against elves, against dredge is decent(not saying it stays in with sideboard voids and plagues)
extirpate: against dredge, against burn
So three of the decks you list as bad matchups they help against. Of course I do not see every deck out there but is it really a worse deck with deed? Charbelcher was funny to when I deeded all his tokens on turn two after he emptied has hand turn one and against affinity major tempo no lands or thropters is bad for them.
Deed is quick when people play tokens and 0-1cc stuff. You never blow up deed for more than three usually.
I do agree with you on Bob he is horrible in this deck. As many of games you will be low in life very quickly.
I guess I am looking at hitting mana accel. like chrome mox, mox diamond, elves, bop, vial, ornithropter, and anything with tokens.
Maybe I am way overplaying the affinity matchup. Which I think is a tuff matchup.
It could be better in the board. Just have been trying it and very pleased. It also swings the game back to our favor which we cant hang in a long game. Just my opinion.
I guess I am looking at hitting mana accel. like chrome mox, mox diamond, elves, bop, vial, ornithropter, and anything with tokens.
Maybe I am way overplaying the affinity matchup. Which I think is a tuff matchup.
It could be better in the board. Just have been trying it and very pleased. It also swings the game back to our favor which we cant hang in a long game. Just my opinion.
When testing on MWS my problem is I either get no lands at all or like 9 lands in a row. But when the deck works it works great,Wouldnt all of this land accell take away from the tempo aspect of the deck.
I used to run 3 needle main deck but I'm looking to cut it for either 3 putrefy or 3 deeds any suggestions on this call.
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I was actually considering deed for seal before I read this thread and will begin testing it today. My initial reason for the consideration was that seal seems like the weakest card by far. Its main benefit over krosan grip is that you can play it proactively. deed shares the benefit. I like deed better than seal vs counterbalance decks because you can usually get it through even with balance in play. It is useful vs dredge, goblins, elves and aggro loam where seal is not so much. Seal is better vs decks like landstill where it can answer humility or crucible more efficiently, but I think in that matchup you hope to keep them off 4 mana.
Pithing needle is another option I have not been able to test yet, but playing it means you probably have to board grips or some kind of answer to enchantments. I def want 4 leyline, 4 eng plague, and 4 choke in my sb. Plainy needle would dictate the last 3 spots be grips imo.
I will start testing deed and report back. If deed could stay main, then those last 3 slots could stay jittes or be extirpates for added garveyard hate (they are also just strong in general for this deck with all its discard).
Nererocket I was just refering to decks with mana acceleration and deed to take care of it. This deck has great accel between dark ritual and delve for the stalker. I was just explaining why I have been running deed main even though it is more of a control card in a suicide deck.
Every once and awhile I will get mana screwed in a draw and not see what I want to but have went to five cards and still have optimal hands. This deck operates very well on 2-3 mana of course not including wastelands.
I would try both deed and putrefy and see what you like. Thats the best way to tell which will work better in your meta. I found in playing the deck deed to be an all star. It resets the game and you drop stalker or goyf. I seem to see alot of creature type decks and deed wrecks them.
What of jitte in the board it is a great card but sometimes not needed. Has anyone been trying other things in place with luck?
I was thinking less the deed, jitte and duress. Add 3x Krosan Grip and maybe the last snuff out and 2x diabolic edict. Or just the deed and duress for grips? Any suggestions welcome?
Pithing needle is another option I have not been able to test yet, but playing it means you probably have to board grips or some kind of answer to enchantments. I def want 4 leyline, 4 eng plague, and 4 choke in my sb. Plainy needle would dictate the last 3 spots be grips imo.
needle is bad main deck , I've tested alot with it and unless you got great reads on what deck your opponet is playing early it could be useless. But deed is a good call for main deck it hits alot of stuff that could hurt you
Nererocket I was just refering to decks with mana acceleration and deed to take care of it. This deck has great accel between dark ritual and delve for the stalker. I was just explaining why I have been running deed main even though it is more of a control card in a suicide deck.
Every once and awhile I will get mana screwed in a draw and not see what I want to but have went to five cards and still have optimal hands. This deck operates very well on 2-3 mana of course not including wastelands.
I would try both deed and putrefy and see what you like. Thats the best way to tell which will work better in your meta. I found in playing the deck deed to be an all star. It resets the game and you drop stalker or goyf. I seem to see alot of creature type decks and deed wrecks them.
What of jitte in the board it is a great card but sometimes not needed. Has anyone been trying other things in place with luck?
I was thinking less the deed, jitte and duress. Add 3x Krosan Grip and maybe the last snuff out and 2x diabolic edict. Or just the deed and duress for grips? Any suggestions welcome?
Alright I get what you're saying, and yeah I've been testing and Deed is an all star. Krosan Grip I feel is a necessity for the board it hits dreadnoughts,cb,top and an array of other things I recommend it highly.
May I ask what purpose reanimate serves in the SB is there any trick I'm missing with it.
My board looks like
x4 Krosan Grip
x3 Leyline of the Void
x2 Choke
x3 Engineered Plague
x3 Jitte
Come on, by now you should know not to double post. If you really really have the urge to add something to your post, click the "Edit" button.
Posts merged. (I won't infract this time, treat this as your verbal warning.)
Cb4 explained it better than I did you play deed proactively. As for rancOr I have hands like that also where I did not need deed also but you don't always get early creatures. Like turn one hippie (best combo in magic). But would have anything else been useful in those mu would seal, putrefy, or needle served better. I only name those because those are the main changes to the deck for everyone.
I only run three leylines because I main deck three extirpates also. I thought that was enough graveyard hate. Since I don't run sinkhole and run more discard. I figure hate the hand not the land. I have my deck setup more control given the deed.
Nererocket I know the two reanimates seem odd in the board but they have came in handy against some decks.
I will pitch grip in for the last deed and sb duress. Which will give me three grip.
I may switch 2 duress in the main for 2 reanimate from the board. I know people have said to much discard main deck. Would two choke be a better call in the board over duress since they would come in against similiar decks.
I tested about 12 matches since my last post with 3 deed in the "flex spots". They have been much better than seal of primordium was. In one match, my deed on the table made my opponent's nev's disk irrelevent in his hand because if he played it, I could have destroyed the disk with deed before he could use it to off my tombstalker. It was great vs thresh to kill mongeese which slipped through my disruption. One surprise benefit that came up in 2 games was popping it for 0 just to make my goyfs bigger. This happened once in combat to keep it alive vs my opponent's fully pumped shade and once to get 2 final damage in with a pair of goyfs. I think it is a better answer for counterbalance than seal and it gives us an answer to black creatures and pro black creatures. I think it will stay for me.
My final decision is on the last 3 slots in the sb. What are jittes best against? I really want to put 3 extirpates in there with the leylines to even up the matchups vs dredge and loam decks a bit.
Oh yeah, any strong feelings on 4 bayou / 5 swamp or 3 bayou / 6 swamp? 3/6 has been ok for me so far.
I've been running x3 smother out of the board for the the mirror, red death, and suicide black matchups. I'm tossing up with smother and diabolic edict though, they both have their advantages and disadvantages. I'm going to test both but does anyone have thoughts on this?
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Needle isnt bad mainboarded, but if you want more than 2 I'd put them in the SB. Enough decks play fetches that you can drop a needle naming an opposing players fetches if you dont have a good target.
Every tier 1 deck has Needle targets except for Ichorid.
Maindecked extirpate is almost as bad as only playing 3 Leyline in the SB.
If you are only going to play 3 leyline, play 3 Tormod's Crypt. Extirpate is tempo and card disadvantage. It is counterproductive to what Eva Green capitalizes on. Extirpate is good in control decks that focus on the mid to late game... where you will actually reap the benefit or RFGing those cards. Yes, you can use it against decks that only have so many win conditions... but in that case play it in the SB (and even then, i'd argue not to do this).
More importantly extirpate does not change your board position at all, it doesnt deal with your opponents permanents, and to be able to use it to begin with you have to deal with your opponents permanent.
Dont get me wrong, i love Extirpate, but it belongs in a control deck. Dont confuse your role when playing this deck. Its nearly the same reason you dont play Bob.
Deed doesnt belong here, I've heard some argue for Engineered Explosives, as its a lot better for getting rid of tokens early on.
If you are considering running dead just b/c of the Elves! matchup, run Perish instead. Its also killer against Thresh if your meta has little to no landstil and you dont want to play choke.
Deed killing Disk is irrelevant, its not a reason to play it. Especially since you can argue Primordial Seal can do the same thing.
You dont want a reset button, because every other deck will recover faster than you. You have no way to draw extra cards. (another reason you dont want to draw cards that dont affect board position).
I prefer Diabolic Edict, because if deals with the untargetable and pro black creatures. Edict + Snuff out can technically deal w/ any creatures thrown your way.
Throst, what are you running in your 3 flex spots?
I agree with edict over smother.
I wasn't citing deed killing disk as a "reason to play it". I am testing deed and was relaying the results of my testing. It was great vs thresh. It pumped goyfs a couple times when seal would not have been able to due to seal needing a target. It kepts disk off the field.
I get that deed would be a control card in an aggro deck. This is a strike against it and is the only reason I am testing it instead of just running it.. However, I have not heard anyone raving about what they are playing in that slot. The cards people are running seem to be seal, extirpate, needle, smother/edict, or reanimate. Deed is one of the most powerful GB cards in the format. It is not dead vs any deck in ther format because it is also very versatile. I would love to hear from someone who has done alot of testing and is really pleased with those slots.
The problem I am having is that I am looking at 75 cards. 69 are set in stone for me. I have 3 main deck slots and 3 sideboard slots left to fill. Between them, I have to have a way to deal with artifacts and enchantments and I would like more game vs loam/dredge. I am currently running the 3 deeds main and 3 extirpate in the sb. Would the extirpates be better as tormod's crpyts? Extirpate seems a little more versatile and does seem to have synergy with the discard elements of the deck.
I have been playing numerous matches against ITF, survival elves, goblins, mirror, mighty quinn, D+T, combo, and thresh
I have decided on the flex 3 spots in my deck to be 2x reanimate and 1 diabolic edict (or vice-versa, it all depends on meta)
Also, as for sideboard, i found crypt x4 to be much much better than leyline x4 as I don't need it in my first hand, and drawing a second one isn't that bad.
ALso, darkblast has found a way into my sideboard as the last 3 slots mostly for elves/groblins, etc. It kills lackey, llanowar and the dredges, which helps tarmo and stalker.
Extirpate may seem to be better, but use whichever strengthens your bad matchups best. Extirpate is good against threshold since it has so few threats, but that matchup is already good enough that you dont need it.
Reanimate is great against Loam and Dredge, stealing a terravore can win you games. Its not as good against Dredge, stealing ichorids or if they only have 1 dredger early game it can buy you a little time.
My 3 slots change alot, but it generally revolves around a combination of Reanimate. Seal of Primodium, and Diabolic Edict.
Seal is a 2-3, Reanimate and Edict is usually 1-2.
If I want a 4th spot I usually go with pulling a Nantuko Shade.
I don't know why people are going any less than 16 creatures. You want those threats as numerous and fast as possible. Also, I think that seal is a little underwhelming lately, it's easily replaceable.
Reanimate gets yours/ his threats which can cause some games to switch to your favour.
Edict gets rid of pro black and shroud creatures, which is good
Smother gets you the spot removal you need, which is essential against decks that edict is bad in.
Extirpate makes the deck more of a control feel than an aggro feel, there are better things to play
perish is great against elves, stompy, thresh. I have someone at the local tourney running stompy with troll ascetic and it is just a pain for me to deal with in this deck.
Still deed is a good card but as everyone points out it is slow in the deck and a control card in a suicide deck. Of corse I still like it but maybe not for this deck. Just tried it and had luck at the local tourney for the past couple of weeks. Did alot of play testing this weekend against considered tier 1 decks and found as most have pointed out sinkhole is a important part of the deck.
I just hate the card pool for this deck being considered so narrow and seeing the same list over and over again with only three to five maindeck card changes.
smallpox? It could possibly be worth as a two off. It hits a land a card a creature and a life. Even though given your own resources as well. But it feeds stalker quickly and goyf. Thats four cards for two mana. In my expericne for this deck you only need two mana to operate.
Does anyone see affinity out there any more or am I it? From board have leyline (hits disciple and modular) and possibly plague. Is main deck that strong against them or is it not considered tier 1?
I think the debate of Leyline, tormods crypt, and extirpate. For me is leyline as it stops triggered graveyard affects. And three has been enough for me to get that extra card spot in the board. I guess it has to do with luck but you usually hit it or go down to 6 or 5 and get it. Being a win against certain decks (ichorid) it does not matter what else you have in hand so you mull till you see it.
As with extirpate hitting a card in their hand which seems to happen often but it does offer no threat as reanimate does.
I ran 15 cretures because I had it setup more rockish than suicide given the card choices I had. possibly may go to 17 with two nyxathid replacing one shade and one snuff. But that could change to reanimate easily in play testing nyxathid.
Changed deck list more eva green style than my other rockish version:
possible change -3 jitte to +3 diabolic edict or 4th grip, 4th plague, and 4th leyline or other ideas. I think jitte is slow in the deck but worth killing other jittes or just beating face on a threat.
the thing about running 22 land is that you have less of a chance to draw into a threat after your gas has run out. I mean, don't get me wrong, there\s been some games when I needed that land, but 21 has been largely better number than 22.
The only thing I was thinking was for the smallpox sac but that may not work anyways. I did like the whole smallpox reanimate (instead of nxyathid). Could even lead to turn one lose nine life for a tombstalker in play. Now that is suicide. Not that it would happin often but the look on your oppenents face. Turn three stalker is enough to make someone cry.
Would you suggest one less swamp for the last snuff out? Being a free spell and all. I do not think I would run another smallpox, nyxathid, or shade. Not that there is anything wrong with shade but I think three is a good number for him.
jitte SEEMS good when you get it during those situational times, which is to say the same of every card.
The problem with it is that it's not a threat. Also, it's too mana greedy (costing, in reality, 4), which could really put you back a turn instead of playing a second threat. Even worse is when you're in topdeck mode looking for a threat and you draw jitte.
Jitte is a great card, don\t get me wrong, but it doesn't seem to find it's home in this deck. Jitte is good against mass creatures, which is most of cases, seem to be tribal decks if you're playing in a decent meta (elves, goblins, etc). In those cases, engineered plague fills the jitte spot.
I'm wondering, has anyone besides me considered running Demigod of Revenge?
I dropped the 4 Hyppies for 3 Demigods and a swamp, and I never looked back. I was never really that impressed by the Hyppies; they just aren't a big enough threat imo. It's great fun to drop a Tombstalker one turn, then the next dark rit into Demigod -- swing for ten. Plus if it gets countered, you just need to play another and you've got at least five damage going in whether they counter it or not.
I'm just wondering if anyone else has tested with it, and what your thoughts are...
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I found him too slow for my liking, maybe in the sideboard against blue decks, in which case, i'd rather hyppie anyway. Or maybe decks that play red, i'd side him in
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Tarmogoyf: This creature is the reason this deck morphed from Red Death to Eva Green. Definitely a 4 of for reasons that need not be stated.
Nantuko Shade: This creature has the potential to go head to head with some of the biggest creatures. This is one of the mid-game beats of the deck, and he does a good job at it. Also, holding back a dark ritual in hand is very useful against an unsuspecting opponent.
Hypnotic Specter: A legend in the world of MTG. This card has proven itself for years and years. A very strong first turn play (via. Dark Ritual). It wins you topdeck wars for the most part, as they can't hold anything back. Very good synergy with Tarmogoyf and Nyxathid (getting more cards to the graveyard and decreasing your opponents hand). He is very useful against control, although its 2 toughness is not the most attractive thing.
Tombstalker: Definitely the gamebreaking creature of the deck. He breaks Tarmo stalls and has evasion. Also, who doesn't love a 2cc 5/5 flyer? Be careful though, he can weaken your own tarmogoyf.
Nyxathid: This is a new addition to the deck and has yet to be widely testing sufficiently. I am currently in the process of doing so, and I must admit, he's not the worst. It makes your late game discard worthwhile as they are going to be holding back cards. Needs some more testing, however.
Putrid Leech: This is a new guy for the deck. He is an early drop, which could rival, or even beat a tarmogoyf at this stage of the game. I would not recommend running if you see a lot of wastelands, as I like keeping as low green casting costs as I can in the deck to avoid such a situation. This could be a budget tarmogoyf, however. I recommend trying him out.
Spells:
Dark Ritual: Again, another legend. This card gives access to very bananas first turn plays. He helps playing tombstalker, as it counts for a big chunk of its cost, by playing ritual, then using it as a delve target. It helps pump shade, etc.
Thoughtseize: an upgrade from Duress after the release of Lorwyn. This card is the best targeted discard. No less than a playset for this deck, as disruption is a very important part of it's plan.
Hymn to Tourach: Even more disruption in the form of random discard. Very strong in the first few turns of a game, although it loses it's glory late game. First turn ritual > thoughtseize > hymn is very strong, however. Also, it hits lands which could, in some cases, be useful.
Sinkhole: Even more disruption, this time in the form of land destruction. The greatest part of this card is its ability to hit basic lands. Sinkhole paired with Wastelands are very strong against most decks.
Snuff Out: Since this a tempo based deck, a free spell is great, especially one that could kill a first turn Goblin Lackey. Although, 4 life is a bit steep, it's still an include for the deck.
Seal of Primordium: This is a debatable slot in the deck. It has many uses, as it can add to tarmo (being the only enchantment in the deck). Also, it can get rid of counterbalance, moat, jitte, etc. Many have been toying with other cards in this slot.
Maelstrom Pulse: Destroying target non-land permanent seems good. I am not convinced on running this card as it takes away from the tempo that this deck is so well known for. It does not do anything that cards already in the deck lack. For example, Krosan Grip and Snuff out hit almost anything you'd need Pulse for. Another card I am not convinced belongs in this deck, but do not hold my words religiously, it could work for you.
Lands:
Wasteland: Very strong in this deck. Wasteland + Sinkhole cause for some very annoying plays.
Polluted Delta/Bloodstained Mire: These are included as 4-ofs because of a variety of reasons. First, they help you get your 4 duals for your green. Second, they thin your deck, which is never something to be angry about. Second, they add to Tombstalker's delve, thus counting as -2 to its cost. Very strong. Also boosts Tarmogoyf
Bayou: Dual lands for green.
Swamp: Given
------
Other cards to think about:
Stillmoon Cavalier: A budget Shade, or in a whit/black heavy meta, this guy could shine.
Reanimate: First turn thoughtseize hitting a creature into second turn reanimate is alright by me. Also helps in the late game.
Smother/Edict/Ghastly Demise: Helps clear the way of blockers so your goyfs or shades can hit home.
Cabal Therapy/Duress: If thoughtseize is out of your budget, you can run these.
Vendetta: seems ok as another answer to first turn lackeys, etc.
Blackmail: Can help as a late game discard that can hit lands.
Unearth: Reanimating a goyf or shade isn't that bad, and when it's not needed, you can cycle it.
------
Sideboard cards:
Choke: Although, we usually have a good matchup against control decks, Choke still serves as a must counter against a lot of decks. Very strong card.
Engineered Plague: With the increase in players using elves, this is a great sideboard card. Helps also against goblins, and even so far as to name soldiers against Elspeth.
Leyline of the Void: Keeps your opponents graveyard empty for free.
Umezawa's Jitte: Although this card helps with the aggro matchups, it is unneeded, as we have the bigger and more evasive creatures. Some may debate against and for this. I am currently sitting on the Against side.
Krosan Grips: Gets rid of Moat, Balance, etc. One of the reasons to even include green to this deck.
Extirpate: good against a variety of decks, gets rid of main threats in decks with few win-cons. Debatable slot, however.
----
Why Dark Confidant is bad.
There's been plenty a time that I have gotten asked why I don't include Bob in the build. The reasons are many against his inclusion. First, Bob + stalker is a very bad thing to see. We play 4 stalkers with no library manipulation at all. Secondly, he gives no pressure to your opponent. We want to be throwing down threats, not something that could potentially lead to threats. Third, we already lose a lot of life in the form of fetches and thoughtseize, adding one more thing that makes us lose life is just bad.
-----
Decklist:
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker
4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 snuff out
4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 bayou
5 swamp
Match-ups:
Thresh (Favorable): Usually this match is in your favor, although the white version gives you a run for your money. This is due to their swords to plowshares, this deck's most hated card. The red version also hits your hyppies and early shades, but still not too big a deal. Make sure you don't go too low with your life against the red version. Any other version is alright and you shouldn't have a problem. Remember, only play your threats when you know it's safe, or you've sufficiently disrupted them. If you thoughtseize and you see two STPs, please don't play your tarmogoyf.
Goblins (Very Favorable): This is a game highly in our favor. Snuff out is a good answer to turn one lackey and dropping a tarmogoyf just ruins their day. Don't play shade without at least one swamp untapped simply in case they drop a mogg fanatic. Specter and Tombstalker are your best friends here. Don't let them get too much board position and you should be good. Plagues from the board make this match even better post-board.
Dredge (very unfavorable): This is a very bad match-up for us. We need to race them, which is hard in a lot of cases. Also, our discard could potentially be in their favor. Snuffing out your own creature to get rid of a bridge is sometimes needed. Leylines and plagues come in against them.
Combo: (favorable): Most of the current combo is in our favor. We have enough disruption of all kinds (seize, sinkhole, hymn, wasteland, hypnotic specter, etc) to hold our own against combo. Nothing in the sideboard helps against this match-up, but you shouldn't need to worry too much.
Elves (slightly unfavorable): Elves have something that goblins don't and this is mana acceleration. Letting them get too many elves early on is a very bad thing. I tend to keep a sinkhole and snuff out for first turn Forest > Mana elf. For having 3 mana for an elf player on turn 2 is a bad thing for us.
Aggro Loam (unfavorable): We basically need to race them and get our disruption to hit fast. Usually they stall or beat us down with their bigger creatures and have more ways to kill us than we can handle or race (such as seismic assault).
Stax (slightly favorable): This basically comes down to whoever plays first. A first turn 3sphere ruins our day and makes ritual useless. Hypnotic specter and tombstalker can help us over moat, but STPs aren't our best friends.
Burn (unfavorable): With 8 fetches + thoughtseize, burn becomes too much to handle. We need a quick tarmo or tombstalker to even stand a chance against burn. Definitely not what you want to play against.
------
If you have any questions or debates (other than Grip vs Seal), please feel free to post. Also, other match-ups or more in-depth views on the ones posted are greatly appreciated.
No love for Putrefy?
Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
I have been playing this for sometime and have tried several things. One card that has been extremly helpful is Pernicious Deed in the slot of choice spot just my 2 cents. And with dark ritual it can be funny. It does make the deck play different than the traditional list. I am seeing alot of vial type decks zombie clerics, merfolk, and mono white aggro. Also affinity seems to have came back. Affinity was the main reason for deed. Also leyline is great against affinity no disciple no modular haha. Then blow up deed drop stalker win.
Which I did try Seal of Primordium and putrefy and did like putrefy better but seemed slow for the deck.
In my list I run the traditional list with these changes
-1 nantuko shade
-4 sinkhole
-1 snuff out
+1 swamp
+3 Extirpate
+2 duress
and 3 deeds in the meta slot
The board I have been running
4 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 duress
2 reanimate
1 Pernicious Deed
I know not playing sinkhole is a sin but i have had better luck with the duress and extirpate. Especially extirpate. I usually save them till late game and pick apart what will stop me plus get a peek at someones hand.
Because the deck I run has more discard I have been thinking about nyaxthid. Has anyone tried him with succes? I would take shade out for him being the best switch as a three off. I think four is to many.
As for putrefy, it was so bad, i forgot about it ;). Seriously, its not a card for this deck, too slow when you have much better alternatives.
And to address Deed, I very deliberately disregarded it for this primer. Deed would make this deck play like much more of a rock variation than a suicide deck. First, it's mana intensive, which means it's basically a late game card. Second, it really gives no disruption at all and third, it takes from the aggro feel of the deck to a more control feel.
If you are facing a meta full of vial, creature -heavy decks, then by all means, if it suits you, play it in the meta slot, but I wouldn't recommend it
Also, you have an even more control version of the deck with the Extirpates and added discard of Duress. Thoughtseize +Hymn are not enough for you?
/end of my $0.02
reason for choices (from what I have played against that are considerd unfavorable matchups)
Deed: against elves, against dredge is decent(not saying it stays in with sideboard voids and plagues)
extirpate: against dredge, against burn
So three of the decks you list as bad matchups they help against. Of course I do not see every deck out there but is it really a worse deck with deed? Charbelcher was funny to when I deeded all his tokens on turn two after he emptied has hand turn one and against affinity major tempo no lands or thropters is bad for them.
Deed is quick when people play tokens and 0-1cc stuff. You never blow up deed for more than three usually.
I do agree with you on Bob he is horrible in this deck. As many of games you will be low in life very quickly.
Maybe I am way overplaying the affinity matchup. Which I think is a tuff matchup.
It could be better in the board. Just have been trying it and very pleased. It also swings the game back to our favor which we cant hang in a long game. Just my opinion.
When testing on MWS my problem is I either get no lands at all or like 9 lands in a row. But when the deck works it works great,Wouldnt all of this land accell take away from the tempo aspect of the deck.
I used to run 3 needle main deck but I'm looking to cut it for either 3 putrefy or 3 deeds any suggestions on this call.
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WUBG Ravanger Affinity
WWWTheMightyQuinn
Pithing needle is another option I have not been able to test yet, but playing it means you probably have to board grips or some kind of answer to enchantments. I def want 4 leyline, 4 eng plague, and 4 choke in my sb. Plainy needle would dictate the last 3 spots be grips imo.
I will start testing deed and report back. If deed could stay main, then those last 3 slots could stay jittes or be extirpates for added garveyard hate (they are also just strong in general for this deck with all its discard).
Every once and awhile I will get mana screwed in a draw and not see what I want to but have went to five cards and still have optimal hands. This deck operates very well on 2-3 mana of course not including wastelands.
I would try both deed and putrefy and see what you like. Thats the best way to tell which will work better in your meta. I found in playing the deck deed to be an all star. It resets the game and you drop stalker or goyf. I seem to see alot of creature type decks and deed wrecks them.
What of jitte in the board it is a great card but sometimes not needed. Has anyone been trying other things in place with luck?
Current Board
4 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 duress
2 reanimate
1 Pernicious Deed
I was thinking less the deed, jitte and duress. Add 3x Krosan Grip and maybe the last snuff out and 2x diabolic edict. Or just the deed and duress for grips? Any suggestions welcome?
needle is bad main deck , I've tested alot with it and unless you got great reads on what deck your opponet is playing early it could be useless. But deed is a good call for main deck it hits alot of stuff that could hurt you
Alright I get what you're saying, and yeah I've been testing and Deed is an all star. Krosan Grip I feel is a necessity for the board it hits dreadnoughts,cb,top and an array of other things I recommend it highly.
May I ask what purpose reanimate serves in the SB is there any trick I'm missing with it.
My board looks like
x4 Krosan Grip
x3 Leyline of the Void
x2 Choke
x3 Engineered Plague
x3 Jitte
Come on, by now you should know not to double post. If you really really have the urge to add something to your post, click the "Edit" button.
Posts merged. (I won't infract this time, treat this as your verbal warning.)
Currently Playing
WUBG Ravanger Affinity
WWWTheMightyQuinn
I only run three leylines because I main deck three extirpates also. I thought that was enough graveyard hate. Since I don't run sinkhole and run more discard. I figure hate the hand not the land. I have my deck setup more control given the deed.
Nererocket I know the two reanimates seem odd in the board but they have came in handy against some decks.
I will pitch grip in for the last deed and sb duress. Which will give me three grip.
This will give the sb:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 reanimate
3
I may switch 2 duress in the main for 2 reanimate from the board. I know people have said to much discard main deck. Would two choke be a better call in the board over duress since they would come in against similiar decks.
My final decision is on the last 3 slots in the sb. What are jittes best against? I really want to put 3 extirpates in there with the leylines to even up the matchups vs dredge and loam decks a bit.
Oh yeah, any strong feelings on 4 bayou / 5 swamp or 3 bayou / 6 swamp? 3/6 has been ok for me so far.
Currently Playing
WUBG Ravanger Affinity
WWWTheMightyQuinn
Every tier 1 deck has Needle targets except for Ichorid.
Maindecked extirpate is almost as bad as only playing 3 Leyline in the SB.
If you are only going to play 3 leyline, play 3 Tormod's Crypt.
Extirpate is tempo and card disadvantage. It is counterproductive to what Eva Green capitalizes on. Extirpate is good in control decks that focus on the mid to late game... where you will actually reap the benefit or RFGing those cards. Yes, you can use it against decks that only have so many win conditions... but in that case play it in the SB (and even then, i'd argue not to do this).
More importantly extirpate does not change your board position at all, it doesnt deal with your opponents permanents, and to be able to use it to begin with you have to deal with your opponents permanent.
Dont get me wrong, i love Extirpate, but it belongs in a control deck. Dont confuse your role when playing this deck. Its nearly the same reason you dont play Bob.
Deed doesnt belong here, I've heard some argue for Engineered Explosives, as its a lot better for getting rid of tokens early on.
If you are considering running dead just b/c of the Elves! matchup, run Perish instead. Its also killer against Thresh if your meta has little to no landstil and you dont want to play choke.
Deed killing Disk is irrelevant, its not a reason to play it. Especially since you can argue Primordial Seal can do the same thing.
You dont want a reset button, because every other deck will recover faster than you. You have no way to draw extra cards. (another reason you dont want to draw cards that dont affect board position).
I prefer Diabolic Edict, because if deals with the untargetable and pro black creatures. Edict + Snuff out can technically deal w/ any creatures thrown your way.
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I agree with edict over smother.
I wasn't citing deed killing disk as a "reason to play it". I am testing deed and was relaying the results of my testing. It was great vs thresh. It pumped goyfs a couple times when seal would not have been able to due to seal needing a target. It kepts disk off the field.
I get that deed would be a control card in an aggro deck. This is a strike against it and is the only reason I am testing it instead of just running it.. However, I have not heard anyone raving about what they are playing in that slot. The cards people are running seem to be seal, extirpate, needle, smother/edict, or reanimate. Deed is one of the most powerful GB cards in the format. It is not dead vs any deck in ther format because it is also very versatile. I would love to hear from someone who has done alot of testing and is really pleased with those slots.
The problem I am having is that I am looking at 75 cards. 69 are set in stone for me. I have 3 main deck slots and 3 sideboard slots left to fill. Between them, I have to have a way to deal with artifacts and enchantments and I would like more game vs loam/dredge. I am currently running the 3 deeds main and 3 extirpate in the sb. Would the extirpates be better as tormod's crpyts? Extirpate seems a little more versatile and does seem to have synergy with the discard elements of the deck.
I have decided on the flex 3 spots in my deck to be 2x reanimate and 1 diabolic edict (or vice-versa, it all depends on meta)
Also, as for sideboard, i found crypt x4 to be much much better than leyline x4 as I don't need it in my first hand, and drawing a second one isn't that bad.
ALso, darkblast has found a way into my sideboard as the last 3 slots mostly for elves/groblins, etc. It kills lackey, llanowar and the dredges, which helps tarmo and stalker.
Reanimate is great against Loam and Dredge, stealing a terravore can win you games. Its not as good against Dredge, stealing ichorids or if they only have 1 dredger early game it can buy you a little time.
My 3 slots change alot, but it generally revolves around a combination of Reanimate. Seal of Primodium, and Diabolic Edict.
Seal is a 2-3, Reanimate and Edict is usually 1-2.
If I want a 4th spot I usually go with pulling a Nantuko Shade.
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Reanimate gets yours/ his threats which can cause some games to switch to your favour.
Edict gets rid of pro black and shroud creatures, which is good
Smother gets you the spot removal you need, which is essential against decks that edict is bad in.
Extirpate makes the deck more of a control feel than an aggro feel, there are better things to play
Still deed is a good card but as everyone points out it is slow in the deck and a control card in a suicide deck. Of corse I still like it but maybe not for this deck. Just tried it and had luck at the local tourney for the past couple of weeks. Did alot of play testing this weekend against considered tier 1 decks and found as most have pointed out sinkhole is a important part of the deck.
I just hate the card pool for this deck being considered so narrow and seeing the same list over and over again with only three to five maindeck card changes.
smallpox? It could possibly be worth as a two off. It hits a land a card a creature and a life. Even though given your own resources as well. But it feeds stalker quickly and goyf. Thats four cards for two mana. In my expericne for this deck you only need two mana to operate.
Does anyone see affinity out there any more or am I it? From board have leyline (hits disciple and modular) and possibly plague. Is main deck that strong against them or is it not considered tier 1?
I think the debate of Leyline, tormods crypt, and extirpate. For me is leyline as it stops triggered graveyard affects. And three has been enough for me to get that extra card spot in the board. I guess it has to do with luck but you usually hit it or go down to 6 or 5 and get it. Being a win against certain decks (ichorid) it does not matter what else you have in hand so you mull till you see it.
As with extirpate hitting a card in their hand which seems to happen often but it does offer no threat as reanimate does.
I ran 15 cretures because I had it setup more rockish than suicide given the card choices I had. possibly may go to 17 with two nyxathid replacing one shade and one snuff. But that could change to reanimate easily in play testing nyxathid.
Changed deck list more eva green style than my other rockish version:
4x tarmogoyf" target="blank">tarmogoyf
4x tombstalker" target="blank">tombstalker
4x Hypnotic Specter" target="blank">Hypnotic Specter
3x nantuko shade" target="blank">nantuko shade
2x nyxathid" target="blank">nyxathid
4x thoughtseize" target="blank">thoughtseize
4x hymn to tourach" target="blank">hymn to tourach
4x sinkhole" target="blank">sinkhole
4x dark ritual" target="blank">dark ritual
3x snuff out" target="blank">snuff out
land
4x bayou" target="blank">bayou
4x polluted delta" target="blank">polluted delta
4x bloodstained mire" target="blank">bloodstained mire
6x swamp" target="blank">swamp
I run 22 land instead of the last extra card. Small pox reanimate could be cool for no forest still able to play goyf. let me now thoughts.
changed board
3x perish
3x Umezawa's Jitte" target="blank">Umezawa's Jitte
3x krosan grip
3x Engineered Plague" target="blank">Engineered Plague
3x leyline of the void
possible change -3 jitte to +3 diabolic edict or 4th grip, 4th plague, and 4th leyline or other ideas. I think jitte is slow in the deck but worth killing other jittes or just beating face on a threat.
Would you suggest one less swamp for the last snuff out? Being a free spell and all. I do not think I would run another smallpox, nyxathid, or shade. Not that there is anything wrong with shade but I think three is a good number for him.
The problem with it is that it's not a threat. Also, it's too mana greedy (costing, in reality, 4), which could really put you back a turn instead of playing a second threat. Even worse is when you're in topdeck mode looking for a threat and you draw jitte.
Jitte is a great card, don\t get me wrong, but it doesn't seem to find it's home in this deck. Jitte is good against mass creatures, which is most of cases, seem to be tribal decks if you're playing in a decent meta (elves, goblins, etc). In those cases, engineered plague fills the jitte spot.
I dropped the 4 Hyppies for 3 Demigods and a swamp, and I never looked back. I was never really that impressed by the Hyppies; they just aren't a big enough threat imo. It's great fun to drop a Tombstalker one turn, then the next dark rit into Demigod -- swing for ten. Plus if it gets countered, you just need to play another and you've got at least five damage going in whether they counter it or not.
I'm just wondering if anyone else has tested with it, and what your thoughts are...
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