I'm sure all of you are familiar with it. I'm not really. I played back then (and have my playset of them) and when I look at Legacy lists almost every one of them seems to be packing 4 Wastelands.
Can someone please inform me as to how this is so good in the meta? I'm a Standard player mostly, now moving into some extended and eyeing Legacy to break out some of my old cards. I'm just curious how this card is so good in the format that almost everyone runs it. Is it simply to disrupt fragile mana bases? Is it worth it to lose one of your lands to slow your opponent down? What place does it have?
I am not asking to start a fight (not sure if this is a sore subject around these parts as cards like the Baneslayer are so often in Standard), but out of simple curiosity.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: BRG Jund Midrange GRB //// B Vampire Aggro B //// WRU Patriot Control URW
Extended: RGW Zoo WGR
Legacy: RUG Canadian Thresh GUR
Legacy decks thrive on dual lands. They're great for splashing a really good spell that might be off color from the rest of your deck without requiring you to devote much space to simple basic lands to fuel the spell.
So this badboy takes out those duals for you, hence the popularity.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jace was an awesome character and the neo-walkers seem like they will be a good concept given what I read in Agents of Artifice.
Its a pretty necessary card to keep the format in check. Its one of the absolute essentials of Legacy IMO.
As for why its good? In a format where people could easily play 5 color everything all the time (10 different fetches, each of which can fetch 7 different dual lands spanning every single color... yea) Wasteland keeps things sane. Its also good because the format is still full of dual lands, after all, as well as special lands like Mishra's Factory, Mutavault and Rishadan Port. "Wastelock" is what happens when you get some form of Wasteland recursion (through Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds) and can shut an opponent down from the game. Even a single Wasteland can occasionally throw an opponent way behind in tempo, if he kept a questionable hand or lost access to a crucial color.
That's kind of what I thought about fragile mana bases. Thank you all. Now I'm pretty glad I have them already (and to think, they were languishing in my old card boxes with a bunch of "meh" cards!).
Now I need to find the money for some Force of Wills (I cannot believe mine are gone) and some other stuff. Just trying to decide what I wanna' build towards beyond that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: BRG Jund Midrange GRB //// B Vampire Aggro B //// WRU Patriot Control URW
Extended: RGW Zoo WGR
Legacy: RUG Canadian Thresh GUR
"Wasteland is like my American Express Card. I don't leave home without it."
It's one of the best cards in legacy (seriously) and keeps many aspects of the game in check. Since essentially all competitive decks run some non-basic/dual, the ability to strike that down is huge. Doesn't look like much, but that simple power goes a loooooong way.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I've removed 4 Mishra's Factory from my deck and thrown in more artifact creatures threats just so that I can properly tune and prepare my deck for my Christmas gifts to myself (maybe from family):
I don't know what to say that hasn't already been said but I will add that even if your opponent is not running non-basics it is worthwhile to have Wasteland main-decked simply as a manasource if nothing else. Provided your deck can properly function with a coloress mana source in playset. It can also Wasteland other wastelands.
I still think Strip Mine is banned for really no apparent reason at all. No one complains about the unfairness of Wasteland is Strip Mine any better? They really just wanted Crucible Of Worlds or Life From The Loam and dredge mechanic to be played. Something that would have hurt Strip Mine's former glory of a really balanced card. So they ban it. And make it broken.
I still think Strip Mine is banned for really no apparent reason at all. No one complains about the unfairness of Wasteland is Strip Mine any better? They really just wanted Crucible Of Worlds or Life From The Loam and dredge mechanic to be played. Something that would have hurt Strip Mine's former glory of a really balanced card. So they ban it. And make it broken.
Because making good cards broken is cool.
I may be wrong but I think wasteland is meant to keep decks using unbasics in check. Strip Mine just hits everything.
Having strip mine banned rewards decks using basics so they can protect themselves. Plus I think 8 lands that can sac and kill opponent lands would be a few too many Id want to see a deck pack.
Another thing people are overlooking is that for the most part Legacy runs on a very low cc curve, because of this a lot of decks cheat their lands and only play around 18 and a bunch of cantrip effects, this makes Wasteland especially strong because a hand of 1-2 land(s) and cantrips is perfectly acceptable to keep, with this, a single wasteland can easily mana screw an opponent.
I still think Strip Mine is banned for really no apparent reason at all. No one complains about the unfairness of Wasteland is Strip Mine any better? They really just wanted Crucible Of Worlds or Life From The Loam and dredge mechanic to be played. Something that would have hurt Strip Mine's former glory of a really balanced card. So they ban it. And make it broken.
Because making good cards broken is cool.
Strip mine was banned/restricted long before Crucible and Loam and was always broken and never "really balanced". I know you have some sort of hard-on for Strip Mine from your previous comments, but its not coming back, and Crucible and Loam allow way cooler things to happen than having Strip Mine in the format.
What are the best land destruction spells/creatures then?
One of the easiest ways to defeat slow control decks is to remove their resources. They often play lots of resources and stall and then out-resource you. They call this fun.
I hate it. A lot of the lands they use to do this are basic Islands. I have trouble coming up with any affordable way to build a deck with a good land destruction component because of this. Besides playing Sinkhole/Wasteland
No no. Don't try typical land destruction. It is too slow. Land destruction can not be your focus. It has to be an element of a more generic disruption strategy to be successful these days.
You're having trouble with mono blue decks (which are not a very powerful deck in Legacy- tier 2 at best) and thats why you want Strip Mine? This is a classic case of getting beat by something, getting frustrated and then wanting some ridiculous solution instead of just analyzing the situation.
I just recently lost a game to a mono blue control deck where I was winning the whole game and had out a 10/10 Knight of the Reliquary immune to his Vedalken Shackles- and proceeded to lose because Meloku is a ridiculously good finisher that can chump block forever and fly to kill me. That doesn't mean they need to print some Meloku-hoser for me.
By the way, Crucible and Loam enable some very cool, very different decks which are not blue. In fact we would lose a HUGE amount of deck diversity if we lost those two cards- and blue decks would be even more powerful and dominant.
You're having trouble with mono blue decks (which are not a very powerful deck in Legacy- tier 2 at best)
I don't know if I'd consider MU Fish tier 2 as I see it winning tourneys frequently.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BMinion of Clan Mono-BlackB
"Be self critical, but divorce your sense of self from your play. You can’t let things affect you emotionally, but at the same time you have to really examine your choices, question them, and see what you could have done better."
- Jon Finkel
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Naya Shaman
Legacy
U/W Tempo
Belcher
Countertop Progenitus
Eva Green or Team America, depends on how I'm feeling
I don't know if I'd consider MU Fish tier 2 as I see it winning tourneys frequently.
He was referring to slow mono-blue control in the original post, which got improperly shortened to just "mono-blue".
I don't think anyone would argue that Merfolk is a bad deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTG Rules Advisor
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
It's land destruction in every color. What's not to love? Also is a colorless land if you end up facing a deck that won't be crippled by destroying the lands.
No no. Don't try typical land destruction. It is too slow. Land destruction can not be your focus. It has to be an element of a more generic disruption strategy to be successful these days.
Wow, the insight of this post just baffles me that no one else commented on it.
Mana denail is good in Legacy for Tempo. With so many rich fixers, it will likely be impossible to completely deny an opponent of mana.
However, you give yourself enough Tempo, and BAM, you just won, they may have 3 lands on the field, but your board is so far progressed from the early tempo it won't matter.
The mono blue decks you guys play against must suck then. Daze, Spell Snare, Boomerang, etc.. these cards just say NO, you don't do anything.
Once they have board control with LANDS, they can play spells and say no, at the same time.
These decks kill aggro the most. If anything. If you play a card they just bounce it. If you try to play a card they don't like it, they have 1 or 2 islands open.
If I manage to sneak in a threat at a critical time they manage to bounce it anyway. If I manage to play more cards than they can counter, they'll draw their cards back and I won't.
I've played this game since 1995 and have never won against a control deck. I have never seen anything but control decks win. Straight-faced.
I got more frustrated when I saw control decks play with bigger splashable creatures then I could afford. I won't get into this.
*
If any of you cease with the arrogant replies against me (I have been playing longer than pretty much anyone at the store I play at and probably longer than you have, so don't treat me like an idiot please) and tell me how to play against control without playing blue and without using cards like Nimble Mongoose then I would LOVE to know.
The mono blue decks you guys play against must suck then. Daze, Spell Snare, Boomerang, etc.. these cards just say NO, you don't do anything.
Once they have board control with LANDS, they can play spells and say no, at the same time.
These decks kill aggro the most. If anything. If you play a card they just bounce it. If you try to play a card they don't like it, they have 1 or 2 islands open.
If I manage to sneak in a threat at a critical time they manage to bounce it anyway. If I manage to play more cards than they can counter, they'll draw their cards back and I won't.
I've played this game since 1995 and have never won against a control deck. I have never seen anything but control decks win. Straight-faced.
I got more frustrated when I saw control decks play with bigger splashable creatures then I could afford. I won't get into this.
*
If any of you cease with the arrogant replies against me (I have been playing longer than pretty much anyone at the store I play at and probably longer than you have, so don't treat me like an idiot please) and tell me how to play against control without playing blue and without using cards like Nimble Mongoose then I would LOVE to know.
Also without playing with cards valued over $15.
Im confused...Mono blue control isnt even all that amazing. And you cant expect to play aggro with bad creatures and win. If youve been playing magic so long you should have learned by now that investing into good cards is worth it in the long run. If you dont want to spend the money on the formats staple cards, then either quit th game or accept your losses with your sub par deck.
ref with 4 red elmental blast and 4 pyro blast do quite well. even raging goblin can get there if red is bult vspecificly to stop blue.
stone rain, burn, blasts, cheap dudes, couter top (i use it in top burn wich helps the 1 or 2 mana at the end of my turn)
I hate to say it, but I know at least a few aggro decks absolutely stomp on control. Especially since the advent of Aether Vial. Used in a Goblin deck, it can tear MonoU control a new one. Violently. Even more so when that uncounterable threat they dropped is pro-blue. That's not to say control isn't strong, just that's it's not the pinnacle of Magic. But I play aggro, what do I know?
Also, what's wrong with Nimble Mongoose? Just curious.
I hate to say it, but I know at least a few aggro decks absolutely stomp on control. Especially since the advent of Aether Vial. Used in a Goblin deck, it can tear MonoU control a new one. Violently. Even more so when that uncounterable threat they dropped is pro-blue. That's not to say control isn't strong, just that's it's not the pinnacle of Magic. But I play aggro, what do I know?
Also, what's wrong with Nimble Mongoose? Just curious.
Mono Blue Control is dead in general therefore a bad example for a Control versus Aggro match. A better example would be Counterbalance Threshold or Tempo Threshold both which in my experience and opinion stomp on Aggro.
I'm sure all of you are familiar with it. I'm not really. I played back then (and have my playset of them) and when I look at Legacy lists almost every one of them seems to be packing 4 Wastelands.
Can someone please inform me as to how this is so good in the meta? I'm a Standard player mostly, now moving into some extended and eyeing Legacy to break out some of my old cards. I'm just curious how this card is so good in the format that almost everyone runs it. Is it simply to disrupt fragile mana bases? Is it worth it to lose one of your lands to slow your opponent down? What place does it have?
I am not asking to start a fight (not sure if this is a sore subject around these parts as cards like the Baneslayer are so often in Standard), but out of simple curiosity.
BRG Jund Midrange GRB //// B Vampire Aggro B //// WRU Patriot Control URW
Extended:
RGW Zoo WGR
Legacy:
RUG Canadian Thresh GUR
EDH:
U Arcum Dagsson U //// WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion BW //// UR Jhoira of the Ghitu RU
Special thanks to spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios for the banner
So this badboy takes out those duals for you, hence the popularity.
Its a pretty necessary card to keep the format in check. Its one of the absolute essentials of Legacy IMO.
As for why its good? In a format where people could easily play 5 color everything all the time (10 different fetches, each of which can fetch 7 different dual lands spanning every single color... yea) Wasteland keeps things sane. Its also good because the format is still full of dual lands, after all, as well as special lands like Mishra's Factory, Mutavault and Rishadan Port. "Wastelock" is what happens when you get some form of Wasteland recursion (through Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds) and can shut an opponent down from the game. Even a single Wasteland can occasionally throw an opponent way behind in tempo, if he kept a questionable hand or lost access to a crucial color.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
Now I need to find the money for some Force of Wills (I cannot believe mine are gone) and some other stuff. Just trying to decide what I wanna' build towards beyond that.
BRG Jund Midrange GRB //// B Vampire Aggro B //// WRU Patriot Control URW
Extended:
RGW Zoo WGR
Legacy:
RUG Canadian Thresh GUR
EDH:
U Arcum Dagsson U //// WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion BW //// UR Jhoira of the Ghitu RU
Special thanks to spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios for the banner
"Wasteland is like my American Express Card. I don't leave home without it."
It's one of the best cards in legacy (seriously) and keeps many aspects of the game in check. Since essentially all competitive decks run some non-basic/dual, the ability to strike that down is huge. Doesn't look like much, but that simple power goes a loooooong way.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Sinkhole & Wasteland in playset
I don't know what to say that hasn't already been said but I will add that even if your opponent is not running non-basics it is worthwhile to have Wasteland main-decked simply as a manasource if nothing else. Provided your deck can properly function with a coloress mana source in playset. It can also Wasteland other wastelands.
Because making good cards broken is cool.
I may be wrong but I think wasteland is meant to keep decks using unbasics in check. Strip Mine just hits everything.
Having strip mine banned rewards decks using basics so they can protect themselves. Plus I think 8 lands that can sac and kill opponent lands would be a few too many Id want to see a deck pack.
C.I.#:5
Strip mine was banned/restricted long before Crucible and Loam and was always broken and never "really balanced". I know you have some sort of hard-on for Strip Mine from your previous comments, but its not coming back, and Crucible and Loam allow way cooler things to happen than having Strip Mine in the format.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
But I love this discussion on Wasteland. I think it is as central to Legacy as Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares.
One of the easiest ways to defeat slow control decks is to remove their resources. They often play lots of resources and stall and then out-resource you. They call this fun.
I hate it. A lot of the lands they use to do this are basic Islands. I have trouble coming up with any affordable way to build a deck with a good land destruction component because of this. Besides playing Sinkhole/Wasteland
I considered Fumarole
For example, Stifle, Wasteland, Daze, and Cursecatcher form the basis of Merfolk mana denial. But every one of those cards has other functions. Sinkhole is the only true land destruction spell you should be considering. But Vindicate is a really good addition if you have white as well. Life from the Loam and Wasteland are a pretty good combination for unbeatable lockdown from a control standpoint. But few decks will completely fold to this anymore. I like Aven Mindcensor, Crucible of Worlds, and Ghost Quarter for coolness, but I doubt it is worth the effort. Death and Taxes used to play Glowrider, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, and Cataclysm together with Mangara of Corondor for a pretty good disruption package.
You're having trouble with mono blue decks (which are not a very powerful deck in Legacy- tier 2 at best) and thats why you want Strip Mine? This is a classic case of getting beat by something, getting frustrated and then wanting some ridiculous solution instead of just analyzing the situation.
I just recently lost a game to a mono blue control deck where I was winning the whole game and had out a 10/10 Knight of the Reliquary immune to his Vedalken Shackles- and proceeded to lose because Meloku is a ridiculously good finisher that can chump block forever and fly to kill me. That doesn't mean they need to print some Meloku-hoser for me.
By the way, Crucible and Loam enable some very cool, very different decks which are not blue. In fact we would lose a HUGE amount of deck diversity if we lost those two cards- and blue decks would be even more powerful and dominant.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
I don't know if I'd consider MU Fish tier 2 as I see it winning tourneys frequently.
"Be self critical, but divorce your sense of self from your play. You can’t let things affect you emotionally, but at the same time you have to really examine your choices, question them, and see what you could have done better."
- Jon Finkel
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Naya Shaman
Legacy
U/W Tempo
Belcher
Countertop Progenitus
Eva Green or Team America, depends on how I'm feeling
My Trade list!
He was referring to slow mono-blue control in the original post, which got improperly shortened to just "mono-blue".
I don't think anyone would argue that Merfolk is a bad deck.
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
Wow, the insight of this post just baffles me that no one else commented on it.
Mana denail is good in Legacy for Tempo. With so many rich fixers, it will likely be impossible to completely deny an opponent of mana.
However, you give yourself enough Tempo, and BAM, you just won, they may have 3 lands on the field, but your board is so far progressed from the early tempo it won't matter.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Daze, Spell Snare, Boomerang, etc.. these cards just say NO, you don't do anything.
Once they have board control with LANDS, they can play spells and say no, at the same time.
These decks kill aggro the most. If anything. If you play a card they just bounce it. If you try to play a card they don't like it, they have 1 or 2 islands open.
If I manage to sneak in a threat at a critical time they manage to bounce it anyway. If I manage to play more cards than they can counter, they'll draw their cards back and I won't.
I've played this game since 1995 and have never won against a control deck. I have never seen anything but control decks win. Straight-faced.
I got more frustrated when I saw control decks play with bigger splashable creatures then I could afford. I won't get into this.
*
If any of you cease with the arrogant replies against me (I have been playing longer than pretty much anyone at the store I play at and probably longer than you have, so don't treat me like an idiot please) and tell me how to play against control without playing blue and without using cards like Nimble Mongoose then I would LOVE to know.
Also without playing with cards valued over $15.
Im confused...Mono blue control isnt even all that amazing. And you cant expect to play aggro with bad creatures and win. If youve been playing magic so long you should have learned by now that investing into good cards is worth it in the long run. If you dont want to spend the money on the formats staple cards, then either quit th game or accept your losses with your sub par deck.
stone rain, burn, blasts, cheap dudes, couter top (i use it in top burn wich helps the 1 or 2 mana at the end of my turn)
also check me out on fb
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
Also, what's wrong with Nimble Mongoose? Just curious.
Mono Blue Control is dead in general therefore a bad example for a Control versus Aggro match. A better example would be Counterbalance Threshold or Tempo Threshold both which in my experience and opinion stomp on Aggro.
Experimental Kraj