I don't think the combo/deck is fit for Legacy. The format has just too many commonly played answers ready for the token, the land, and even activated/triggered abilities.
Not for legacy, maybe it will stay at extended. I really don't think it's that good.
Decks that run the combo by itself with no back-up plan aren't very good. However, it is becoming prevalent to stick it in with other combos like Thopter-Sword of the Meek-Time Sieve and others. Hell, I even saw an effective Vampire aggro that threw in Dark Depths because it could. But like many Extended combo decks, the existence of very good counterspells in Legacy prevent their viability in the format.
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"I don't know why people say a double-edged sword is bad. It's a sword. With two edges." - Kamahl, Pit Fighter
It lacks something to push it over the edge. The combo itself is cute but there's some overall synergy with other cards (lacking a shell of a deck) that holding the combo back.
Best comparison is Stifle/Dreadnought -- Dreadstill is a very effective shell. Hex/Depths just doesn't have a definitive nucleus around it.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I think Dark Depths suffers, in part to what Warden mentioned, to the shell that surrounds it. While green and black can offer support, they cannot come close to offering the counter support that makes Dreadstill a prevalent (and deadly) deck in the format. Blue support goes a long way, and there are far too many ways to destroy the token...Stps, PtE, Echoing Truth, Wipe away...
Maybe in extended, it'd be more viable, but in Legacy, I feel like the deck would need far more support (as well as dedicating more efforts to making it their win condition instead of a side gimmick) in order to make it more respected in 1.5.
What do you think about putting DD/Hexmage into an Ad Nauseam/Angel's Grace deck as a second win con?
The opponent will be "psyched out" as to what to save counter spells for or could SB out something needed in answering one effect and not the other; naturally, some pro players and resilient decks will not have this problem.
I can see how the deck can be constructed so as not to be too slow on either end.
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Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking. -Albert Einstein
For Legacy there seem to be too many answers, but it may still have merit if dropped into an already good shell as an alt-win con or as a bit of psychological warfare. But as a centerpiece combo, not for this format. In Extended it's easier to work with, but still chancy there. At least it's just a simple 2-card combo though, so I think it should be able to find a home in an already good shell, likely UB or BW.
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Decks
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite) Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks) Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks) Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
It's terrible here. Far too many answers....stifle the hexmage activation. When you duress me, I'll hide StP with brainstorm. FoW. Spell snare. It's much better in extended.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
a pretty decent player at my shop did really well with it in a counterballance shell.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I don't think we can say its BAD yet and people saying that are jumping the gun, although I can see the reasoning.
However, the fact that Wasteland is already so prevalent (as opposed to Ghost Quarter in Ext. which was added mostly to deal with Dark Depths) is really bad for the combo. On top of that, Dark Depths sucks by itself, and whereas Vampire Hexmage is actually alright in Extended as a creature by herself, she isn't in Legacy where a 2 mana 2/1 first striker is basically nothing.
I don't think we can say its BAD yet and people saying that are jumping the gun, although I can see the reasoning.
However, the fact that Wasteland is already so prevalent (as opposed to Ghost Quarter in Ext. which was added mostly to deal with Dark Depths) is really bad for the combo. On top of that, Dark Depths sucks by itself, and whereas Vampire Hexmage is actually alright in Extended as a creature by herself, she isn't in Legacy where a 2 mana 2/1 first striker is basically nothing.
I mainly play in Standard and Extended so I am by no means very knowledgable on the subject, but looking at the composition of the good decks in Legacy DD it looks as though it would be hard to build into a competitive deck.
However, is the Phyrexian Dreadnought combo any good now given the same logic that supports the argument that DD is not so good? Both can be easily dealt with in Legacy and both are two card combos.
I mainly play in Standard and Extended, and looking at the composition of the good decks in Legacy DD would be hard to build into a competitive deck. However, is the Phyrexian Dreadnought combo any good now given the same logic that says DD is not so good. Both can be easily dealt with in Legacy.
Stifle/Dreadnought is viable because it has a legitimate shell. A blue-heavy shell that incorporates the combo seamlessly.
Hex/Depths DOES NOT get there. period. Forget about "omg wasteland / spot removal / countermagic" --- the deck has no solid shell to fit into. It's susceptible to what everyone mentioned because it's not within an effective shell.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I'm not seeing whats keeping the combo from "making it" entirely. I see people comparing it to stifle dreadnought and the combos play completely differently. What i'm seeing is people thinking that wiping it out there like a dreadnought stifled will make it stick with it indestrucability. As people stated before path and swords and other pesky stuff saves the would be victims.
DD only really works if you prep the board for it to last, most builds i see don't have enough discard, at the same time a mother of runes or sylvan safekeeper could go a long way and i've never seen those in any builds that have t8 thus far.
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Stifle/Dreadnought is viable because it has a legitimate shell. A blue-heavy shell that incorporates the combo seamlessly.
Hex/Depths DOES NOT get there. period. Forget about "omg wasteland / spot removal / countermagic" --- the deck has no solid shell to fit into. It's susceptible to what everyone mentioned because it's not within an effective shell.
Are you suggesting DD cannot possibly be made as strong as Phyrexian Dreadnot?
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Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking. -Albert Einstein
Dark Depths is less likely to make it, because unlike Vampire Hexmage or Dark Depths, at least Stifle is good on its own, and the fact that the combo requires only 1U to play rather than BB and a land that can't produce mana makes Stifle-Nought better. Even Dreadnought without Stifle is a 1-mana solution to getting rid of Bridge from Below in Dredge, and although Hexmage can do that as well, you still end up with DD being a completely useless land without Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth or Hexmage, and in one of those cases it is just a swamp.
Basically, Stifle-Nought fit into a shell very nicely with one of the cards being great on its own and Hexmage+DD does not have a shell yet, but even when it does, it will likely still not match up to Stifle-Nought due to its heavier mana requirements and the fact that one card is a land-drop that doesn't give you mana.
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I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
I think that Dark Depths as a deck is not so good, but I think that the combo could be good in another deck that operates without it and uses it as an alternate win condition.
That is the deck that was made; see the Ad Nauseam Angel's Grace Deck posted under the 1.5 forum.
His point is that angel's grace is unnecessary in storm, when you cast AdN with a decent amount of life your going to draw 20+ cards and you will be able to win... you don't need Angel's Grace and the ability to draw your entire deck.
As stated previously, I just don't think that it's something that a deck should focus on. On their own, they're not very good cards. and one of them is Spell Snare-able. Counterspells are just too prevalent in the format.
I still think the best card + card = big guy combo is Natural Order and Progenitus, mainly cause it's really a one card combo. Only issue is is that tempo bant is the only deck that has the combo backed up with counterspells.
But I digress. Hex Depths is not viable yet, and I'm not sure it will be. I don't know if a deck can be viable if it has to save a bunch of counterspell for the combo while trying to survive.
Do you guys think the DD + Hexmage combo is here to stay, or is it one of those decks that won because nobody expected it (like elves combo).
I'm debating whether I should build the deck for my legacy gauntlet, let's hear your thoughts.
Decks that run the combo by itself with no back-up plan aren't very good. However, it is becoming prevalent to stick it in with other combos like Thopter-Sword of the Meek-Time Sieve and others. Hell, I even saw an effective Vampire aggro that threw in Dark Depths because it could. But like many Extended combo decks, the existence of very good counterspells in Legacy prevent their viability in the format.
Best comparison is Stifle/Dreadnought -- Dreadstill is a very effective shell. Hex/Depths just doesn't have a definitive nucleus around it.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Maybe in extended, it'd be more viable, but in Legacy, I feel like the deck would need far more support (as well as dedicating more efforts to making it their win condition instead of a side gimmick) in order to make it more respected in 1.5.
The opponent will be "psyched out" as to what to save counter spells for or could SB out something needed in answering one effect and not the other; naturally, some pro players and resilient decks will not have this problem.
I can see how the deck can be constructed so as not to be too slow on either end.
That is the deck that was made; see the Ad Nauseam Angel's Grace Deck posted under the 1.5 forum.
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite)
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks)
Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks)
Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
Standard
Waiting for Innistrad...
Extended
Hah!
Modern
Living End Cascade (RGB)
Legacy
Burn
Vintage
None
Casual
WB Aggro-Control
Green Stompy
Pink Floyd (UWr Wall Control)
Lunch Box (Fatty ramp)
D-Bag (White Control)
Level 13 Task Mage
Currently Playing:
Retired
HOWEVER,
a pretty decent player at my shop did really well with it in a counterballance shell.
However, the fact that Wasteland is already so prevalent (as opposed to Ghost Quarter in Ext. which was added mostly to deal with Dark Depths) is really bad for the combo. On top of that, Dark Depths sucks by itself, and whereas Vampire Hexmage is actually alright in Extended as a creature by herself, she isn't in Legacy where a 2 mana 2/1 first striker is basically nothing.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
I mainly play in Standard and Extended so I am by no means very knowledgable on the subject, but looking at the composition of the good decks in Legacy DD it looks as though it would be hard to build into a competitive deck.
However, is the Phyrexian Dreadnought combo any good now given the same logic that supports the argument that DD is not so good? Both can be easily dealt with in Legacy and both are two card combos.
Stifle/Dreadnought is viable because it has a legitimate shell. A blue-heavy shell that incorporates the combo seamlessly.
Hex/Depths DOES NOT get there. period. Forget about "omg wasteland / spot removal / countermagic" --- the deck has no solid shell to fit into. It's susceptible to what everyone mentioned because it's not within an effective shell.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
DD only really works if you prep the board for it to last, most builds i see don't have enough discard, at the same time a mother of runes or sylvan safekeeper could go a long way and i've never seen those in any builds that have t8 thus far.
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
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Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
Are you suggesting DD cannot possibly be made as strong as Phyrexian Dreadnot?
Basically, Stifle-Nought fit into a shell very nicely with one of the cards being great on its own and Hexmage+DD does not have a shell yet, but even when it does, it will likely still not match up to Stifle-Nought due to its heavier mana requirements and the fact that one card is a land-drop that doesn't give you mana.
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
His point is that angel's grace is unnecessary in storm, when you cast AdN with a decent amount of life your going to draw 20+ cards and you will be able to win... you don't need Angel's Grace and the ability to draw your entire deck.
C.I.#:5
I still think the best card + card = big guy combo is Natural Order and Progenitus, mainly cause it's really a one card combo. Only issue is is that tempo bant is the only deck that has the combo backed up with counterspells.
But I digress. Hex Depths is not viable yet, and I'm not sure it will be. I don't know if a deck can be viable if it has to save a bunch of counterspell for the combo while trying to survive.
On the banning of Mystical Tutor (R.I.P.):