Also, apparently, you do not know who Doug is - just a writer who was speculating on the B&R update.
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Original quote byTacosnape "All ideas that give me knowledge without any effort involved on my part are good ideas. Chop chop, my dear fellow."
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- ANT can't float mana into the draw step (relevant when you Mystical Tutor Ad Nauseam).
- No more Wishes getting back Exiled cards. This means Aggro Loam can't recover their LftLs if they get Extirpated or wiped out by graveyard hate, and Solidarity can't do stuff with Flash of Insight and Cunning Wish, or just Cunning Wish into another Cunning Wish to build up storm count.
- D&T just lost a ton of their combat tricks that made the deck tick. Yes, they can still do silly stuff at instant speed, but the removal of damage going on the stack was a huge blow for the deck.
- Tarmogoyf gets better with the removal of damage on the stack. Yeeech.
- Ichorid gets better now that Mogg Fanatic and other sac creatures (mainly Fanatic) have been nerfed.
- Isamaru's Vile Horror deck is now completely and utterly unplayable.
EDIT: Yeah, that article is just pure speculation. It's actually pretty bogus, considering he wants cards like Frantic Search, Recruiter, and Gush unbanned.
Goblin recruiter would instantly replace mogg fanatic in goblins if it were unbanned. It's so simple you stack your deck with goblins and put a ringleader on top so that you can storm the field and win I think that would be a tad bad for the format.
What cards do we have that make gush broken though all I can think of is azusa, lost but seeking, exploration, and gaea's touch. And it could find a place in solidarity perhaps as a wish target but really I don't see ANT using it because it never has that many lands anyway.
Yeah he was just speculating as people always do about the B&R List I think he was right on some things but wrong on others mainly frantic search that card is SO GOOD and if you know how to play solidarity you know it would replace turnabout and be about 10x as good seeing as how you get to draw cards off it as well and it costs 1 less.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Because the removal of combat damage going on the stack nerfs creatures with sac/evade abilities like Qasali Pridemage. It turns these types of creatures more vanilla-ish, which makes Goyf better because he isn't hurt at all by these changes.
What cards do we have that make gush broken though all I can think of is azusa, lost but seeking, exploration, and gaea's touch. And it could find a place in solidarity perhaps as a wish target but really I don't see ANT using it because it never has that many lands anyway.
Here's the thing. Gush is an unfair card no matter how you slice it. It's FREE, INSTANT SPEED, and it draws multiple cards. You really don't need cards like Azusa or Exploration to break Gush. Gush fundamentally breaks the game to begin with. Sometimes, Gush is a spell that costs -1 or even -2 to play because its "pre-requisite" that is supposed to be a drawback is a benefit. Combo decks care less about bouncing two lands when they draw more cards and up their storm count. Blue-based aggro decks would immediately play Gush as well because it gives them pure card draw instead of just card selection Brainstorm, Ponder, and SDT provide.
The ironic part is that Gush actually reduces the land count of these decks because it can generate mana without too many problems plus draw cards at the same time.
In a format where blue is by far the most dominant color in the format, giving blue back Gush would be a horrible mistake.
I think he was right on some things but wrong on others mainly frantic search that card is SO GOOD and if you know how to play solidarity you know it would replace turnabout and be about 10x as good seeing as how you get to draw cards off it as well and it costs 1 less.
Frantic Search makes Solidarity a whole turn faster. I don't want to be facing a combo deck that can win on turn 3 with complete control of the stack. It also makes Spring Tide (sorcery-speed, faster version of Solidarity) much more lethal as well.
What cards do we have that make gush broken though all I can think of is azusa, lost but seeking, exploration, and gaea's touch. And it could find a place in solidarity perhaps as a wish target but really I don't see ANT using it because it never has that many lands anyway.
4x Gush in thresh (or Coatl Gro... whatever). Instant speed draw for (effectively) free for one of, if not the most format defining deck? That would be absolutely disgusting.
Right now, here's what I'm seeing: Mogg Fanatic and Qasali Pridemage both take a power-level drop. Actually, anything with the phrase "Sacrifice [cardname]" or "Sacrifice a [parameter]" gets powered down.
The removal of mana burn can be a bit of a mixed blessing. Now, if you Orim's Chant someone in response to their Seething Song, they don't burn for 5, they just lose the card. It does make Chalice Aggro (see Dragon Stompy) and Stax a bit easier to work with, as you don't have to worry about taking 3 from your Ancient Tomb to cover that last 1 mana.
Lion's Eye Diamond becomes slightly worse in AnT, but slightly better in Ichorid. No longer can AnT do "Sac. LED during my upkeep, use the mana after my draw to cast Ad Nauseum". Also, Ichorid can now use LED without worrying about burning for 3 if they don't have some sort of mana-sink.
I can't really see the token ownership deal having much of an effect on anything short of Vile Horror or Warp World (HA!). I supose it hurts Brand a bit, but really, there won't be too much effect on the game with that change.
I feel like the flavor aspect of the Lifelink change was well done. It is "Life Link", not "Life Transfer"; the way it sounds, it's suposed to be a simultaneous deal, not a delayed response. Although I will be sad to see that it doesn't stack (no more double Armidillo Cloaking a Kitty), from a flavor standpoint, it just makes sense.
As for the muligan rule change... I can't see that lasting for long. It seems like it will cause more difficulty than it will solve.
Edit: Can you still wish for a wish that's already been cast (generally for storm)? Or does the wish now become "exiled" after you cast it?
I think Gush could be reintroduced to the format as long as they errata it to say return basic Islands instead of any Islands. This should lessen its impact a bit.
The other cards mentioned by Doug are a bit too unpredictable for me to say they deserve to be unbanned. Definitely Frantic Search and Goblin Recruiter need to stay banned (what was he thinking??:o) from the format.
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"Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight."
Goblins will be taking the biggest hit with both SGC and Fanatics IMO..
I would believe D&T takes the biggest "drop"...if that's the right word to use. Goblins is going to have it rough BUT can alter the deck by using different cards. The strategy stays relatively the same: denial while swarming. Certain options simmer down but the deck as a whole is still very viable.
D&T's strategy heavily relies upon stack/combat tricks. Since the rules change, D&T's exploitation of the stack + damage is greatly reduced, if not eliminated entirely. Mangara, Stonecloaker, etc can no longer block + CIP + use an ability at the same time.
Unless Divining Top gets banned (yea, sorry to bring this up), I cannot see Threshold losing its grip of the top deck to play. New cards aside, its creature-base, playstyle, and nature only gets stronger after the rules change. Tarmogoyf is by far the best critter to run with the damage situation changing, and counter-top (or even the tempo-based variants that dont need CB/Top) form such a solid mesh of a deck it's disgusting. The only "problem" Thresh is going to have when M10 comes around is "what creatures do we run beside goyf"...which pretty much sums things up.
*Alternatively, WOTC (possibly the first B/R update AFTER M10) could see that goyf is too bonkers for its own good. Im not saying it should or will become banned but you gotta believe they're factoring its presence under the new combat stuff.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I would believe D&T takes the biggest "drop"...if that's the right word to use. Goblins is going to have it rough BUT can alter the deck by using different cards. The strategy stays relatively the same: denial while swarming. Certain options simmer down but the deck as a whole is still very viable.
Or they could always hop on the FCG bandwagon, as it remains relatively un-fazed by the changes. Except that in the event of a combo fizzle excess mana may no longer kill the FCG player. (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)
That's actually one change I like to come out of this, Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors are now that little extra bit less painful. Which is nice for any deck already running them, and some that might be more tempted to do so now.
Also any deck that abused Eladamri's Vineyard now needs some new win-conditions.
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I edit after I post... just a heads up.
Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
The removal of combat damage stacking nerfs Cephalid Breakfast decks quite hard, where the Volrath's Shapeshifter/Cephalid Illusionist/Phage kill was the combo. Now creature removal spells can actally stop U from winning. =^(
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Some have said embermages lack subtlety. You know what? THEY'RE ALL DEAD!! :mad1:
Aggro decks, which are the most attractive kind of decks to new players and no longer any fun to play and now make control even better in the game than it was before.
This is a poor choice of rules changing as now you'll be like to play a lot more control in tournaments than aggro, which just makes for an un-fun atmosphere.
Anyway, D+T, as it was already lacking the 'oomph' to make it really competitive, now loses any advantage it had.
Goblins becomes subpar (I'm off to sell the deck in a week or so)
How do you guys see zoo faring after the change? Wooly Thoctors and Tarmogoyfs get silly, but their burn in the combat step tricks awe subpar.
I'm basically reiterating what was said before, so I no longer need to write more.
I don't really see how this affects aggro in 1.5 except for Gobs losing a slice of efficacy from their fanatics and siege gangs, and morphling is now even less relevant than it was when weenie rush started beating out MUC and U players started playing Thresh and Madness.
I haven't heard of 1.5 Zoo running anything with a sacrifice ability, and it's already free to run pyroclasm to nuke opposing weenie decks. Gobs essential strategy remains the same, and is unaffected. I don't really see any truly competitive decks being injured by this except for Goblins.
D&T's strategy heavily relies upon stack/combat tricks. Since the rules change, D&T's exploitation of the stack + damage is greatly reduced, if not eliminated entirely. Mangara, Stonecloaker, etc can no longer block + CIP + use an ability at the same time.
I see these sentiments popping up a lot. While it is true that there will be no opportunity to stack the damage, it is pretty uncommon to have this happen anyway. And the scale slides to even more infrequent as the ability of the opponent gets higher. I have only ever done this a handful of times. I bet it is similar for other players of this deck.
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Unless Divining Top gets banned (yea, sorry to bring this up), I cannot see Threshold losing its grip of the top deck to play. New cards aside, its creature-base, playstyle, and nature only gets stronger after the rules change. Tarmogoyf is by far the best critter to run with the damage situation changing, and counter-top (or even the tempo-based variants that dont need CB/Top) form such a solid mesh of a deck it's disgusting. The only "problem" Thresh is going to have when M10 comes around is "what creatures do we run beside goyf"...which pretty much sums things up.
This is a very important idea to look at. Yet again Threshold comes out shining after a major change to the game. That deck has been getting a steady stream of all the best stuff for several years now. I don't think any of the changes hurt Threshold. Tarmo even gets a small boost. And since a number of other decks do get hurt, it seems that Threshold benefits again thus entrenching it deeper into the top spot.
We are approaching a tipping point here. I wonder how long it will take for the boat to topple.
The deck has no tricks that aren't open to decks that don't play brainstorm - it determines draw quality, which is really the bigger issue to be handled than simply "Goyf is a problem". Brainstorm, Top, Ponder are the larger issues. I was examining the oldest lists I could find and the newest card in each of them that took the gold or t8'ed was the seemingly innocuous Serum Visions. I would wager that if they really wanted to weaken thresh, it would involve taking a look at the critical mass of draw selectors available in 1.5 that created the deck.
If they were gonna hit anything from the deck, it'd be top and brainstorm. While those cards on their own are very powerful but not degenerate in 1.5, when enough selectors are used in a deck via CA engines like Bob or along with ponder or serum visions, it creates thresh. Minus brainstorm and top the deck would still be very good, but it would lose CB and its best cantrip.
I feel like the flavor aspect of the Lifelink change was well done. It is "Life Link", not "Life Transfer"; the way it sounds, it's suposed to be a simultaneous deal, not a delayed response. Although I will be sad to see that it doesn't stack (no more double Armidillo Cloaking a Kitty), from a flavor standpoint, it just makes sense.
Incorrect. Armadillo Cloak and any other card that was originally printed without the lifelink keyword will be un-errata'd, and thus will still provide a stacking lifegain ability.
I am confused by the un-errata.
I know Armadillo Cloak and the cards printed with out the phrase life link WILL stack, but when you you actually gain the life? My friend uses exalted angel in every deck he builds and it is actually very relative.
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I am confused by the un-errata.
I know Armadillo Cloak and the cards printed with out the phrase life link WILL stack, but when you you actually gain the life? My friend uses exalted angel in every deck he builds and it is actually very relative.
Most likely it will be like how lifelink works now. So, when Child of Night attacks, you gain life at the same time she deals damage. When Exalted Angel attacks, she deals damage and then her "lifelink" ability will trigger and go on the stack.
The creatures are nerfed in the fact that they can't block, deal their damage, kill the other creature, and sac themselves. But, If I'm thinking correctly, they can still block (even for a chump), and before damage is dealt, get sacced to kill something. Not AS good (example: Spike Feeder blocking Goyf, then gaining 4) but some of the time, you weren't killing the other creature anyway (but I guess you could weaken it for a bolt)
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EDIT2: Regarding the article in the OP, I was meditating about a possible inclusion of Earthcraft in the Elf Combo deck. It does a little better the work of Birchlore Rangers: One More mana, Noncreature Green spell, tap Nettle Sentinel to untap a Forest. What do you think about this?
Earthcraft is quite banned. It's just too good. Sheesh, I recall I could get infinate saprolings, each with infinate power and toughness, on turn 3 off using it back in the day. We won't be seeing this card come off the banned list ever I should imagine.
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Some have said embermages lack subtlety. You know what? THEY'RE ALL DEAD!! :mad1:
What specific legacy staple cards are nerfed/buffed? (i think Ravager and a couple of goblin cards got nerfed)
What decks got the blow? (Im thinking D&T because of all combat stack tricks it has)
Any other things that might change (Theres already a BraidBurn deck going)?
Discuss:
PS. Also apparently, there will be some changes in the Legacy ban list on June 20th (as seen here: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17589_Legacys_Allure_Cleaning_The_Legacy_Banned_List.html)
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GP:London 2013 67th
Bazaar of Moxen 2013 32nd
- ANT can't float mana into the draw step (relevant when you Mystical Tutor Ad Nauseam).
- No more Wishes getting back Exiled cards. This means Aggro Loam can't recover their LftLs if they get Extirpated or wiped out by graveyard hate, and Solidarity can't do stuff with Flash of Insight and Cunning Wish, or just Cunning Wish into another Cunning Wish to build up storm count.
- D&T just lost a ton of their combat tricks that made the deck tick. Yes, they can still do silly stuff at instant speed, but the removal of damage going on the stack was a huge blow for the deck.
- Tarmogoyf gets better with the removal of damage on the stack. Yeeech.
- Ichorid gets better now that Mogg Fanatic and other sac creatures (mainly Fanatic) have been nerfed.
- Isamaru's Vile Horror deck is now completely and utterly unplayable.
EDIT: Yeah, that article is just pure speculation. It's actually pretty bogus, considering he wants cards like Frantic Search, Recruiter, and Gush unbanned.
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
What cards do we have that make gush broken though all I can think of is azusa, lost but seeking, exploration, and gaea's touch. And it could find a place in solidarity perhaps as a wish target but really I don't see ANT using it because it never has that many lands anyway.
Yeah he was just speculating as people always do about the B&R List I think he was right on some things but wrong on others mainly frantic search that card is SO GOOD and if you know how to play solidarity you know it would replace turnabout and be about 10x as good seeing as how you get to draw cards off it as well and it costs 1 less.
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Because the removal of combat damage going on the stack nerfs creatures with sac/evade abilities like Qasali Pridemage. It turns these types of creatures more vanilla-ish, which makes Goyf better because he isn't hurt at all by these changes.
Here's the thing. Gush is an unfair card no matter how you slice it. It's FREE, INSTANT SPEED, and it draws multiple cards. You really don't need cards like Azusa or Exploration to break Gush. Gush fundamentally breaks the game to begin with. Sometimes, Gush is a spell that costs -1 or even -2 to play because its "pre-requisite" that is supposed to be a drawback is a benefit. Combo decks care less about bouncing two lands when they draw more cards and up their storm count. Blue-based aggro decks would immediately play Gush as well because it gives them pure card draw instead of just card selection Brainstorm, Ponder, and SDT provide.
The ironic part is that Gush actually reduces the land count of these decks because it can generate mana without too many problems plus draw cards at the same time.
In a format where blue is by far the most dominant color in the format, giving blue back Gush would be a horrible mistake.
Frantic Search makes Solidarity a whole turn faster. I don't want to be facing a combo deck that can win on turn 3 with complete control of the stack. It also makes Spring Tide (sorcery-speed, faster version of Solidarity) much more lethal as well.
4x Gush in thresh (or Coatl Gro... whatever). Instant speed draw for (effectively) free for one of, if not the most format defining deck? That would be absolutely disgusting.
Right now, here's what I'm seeing: Mogg Fanatic and Qasali Pridemage both take a power-level drop. Actually, anything with the phrase "Sacrifice [cardname]" or "Sacrifice a [parameter]" gets powered down.
The removal of mana burn can be a bit of a mixed blessing. Now, if you Orim's Chant someone in response to their Seething Song, they don't burn for 5, they just lose the card. It does make Chalice Aggro (see Dragon Stompy) and Stax a bit easier to work with, as you don't have to worry about taking 3 from your Ancient Tomb to cover that last 1 mana.
Lion's Eye Diamond becomes slightly worse in AnT, but slightly better in Ichorid. No longer can AnT do "Sac. LED during my upkeep, use the mana after my draw to cast Ad Nauseum". Also, Ichorid can now use LED without worrying about burning for 3 if they don't have some sort of mana-sink.
I can't really see the token ownership deal having much of an effect on anything short of Vile Horror or Warp World (HA!). I supose it hurts Brand a bit, but really, there won't be too much effect on the game with that change.
I feel like the flavor aspect of the Lifelink change was well done. It is "Life Link", not "Life Transfer"; the way it sounds, it's suposed to be a simultaneous deal, not a delayed response. Although I will be sad to see that it doesn't stack (no more double Armidillo Cloaking a Kitty), from a flavor standpoint, it just makes sense.
As for the muligan rule change... I can't see that lasting for long. It seems like it will cause more difficulty than it will solve.
Edit: Can you still wish for a wish that's already been cast (generally for storm)? Or does the wish now become "exiled" after you cast it?
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
The other cards mentioned by Doug are a bit too unpredictable for me to say they deserve to be unbanned. Definitely Frantic Search and Goblin Recruiter need to stay banned (what was he thinking??:o) from the format.
I would believe D&T takes the biggest "drop"...if that's the right word to use. Goblins is going to have it rough BUT can alter the deck by using different cards. The strategy stays relatively the same: denial while swarming. Certain options simmer down but the deck as a whole is still very viable.
D&T's strategy heavily relies upon stack/combat tricks. Since the rules change, D&T's exploitation of the stack + damage is greatly reduced, if not eliminated entirely. Mangara, Stonecloaker, etc can no longer block + CIP + use an ability at the same time.
Unless Divining Top gets banned (yea, sorry to bring this up), I cannot see Threshold losing its grip of the top deck to play. New cards aside, its creature-base, playstyle, and nature only gets stronger after the rules change. Tarmogoyf is by far the best critter to run with the damage situation changing, and counter-top (or even the tempo-based variants that dont need CB/Top) form such a solid mesh of a deck it's disgusting. The only "problem" Thresh is going to have when M10 comes around is "what creatures do we run beside goyf"...which pretty much sums things up.
*Alternatively, WOTC (possibly the first B/R update AFTER M10) could see that goyf is too bonkers for its own good. Im not saying it should or will become banned but you gotta believe they're factoring its presence under the new combat stuff.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Or they could always hop on the FCG bandwagon, as it remains relatively un-fazed by the changes. Except that in the event of a combo fizzle excess mana may no longer kill the FCG player. (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)
That's actually one change I like to come out of this, Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors are now that little extra bit less painful. Which is nice for any deck already running them, and some that might be more tempted to do so now.
Also any deck that abused Eladamri's Vineyard now needs some new win-conditions.
Currently Running
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Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
This is a poor choice of rules changing as now you'll be like to play a lot more control in tournaments than aggro, which just makes for an un-fun atmosphere.
Anyway, D+T, as it was already lacking the 'oomph' to make it really competitive, now loses any advantage it had.
Goblins becomes subpar (I'm off to sell the deck in a week or so)
How do you guys see zoo faring after the change? Wooly Thoctors and Tarmogoyfs get silly, but their burn in the combat step tricks awe subpar.
I'm basically reiterating what was said before, so I no longer need to write more.
I haven't heard of 1.5 Zoo running anything with a sacrifice ability, and it's already free to run pyroclasm to nuke opposing weenie decks. Gobs essential strategy remains the same, and is unaffected. I don't really see any truly competitive decks being injured by this except for Goblins.
I see these sentiments popping up a lot. While it is true that there will be no opportunity to stack the damage, it is pretty uncommon to have this happen anyway. And the scale slides to even more infrequent as the ability of the opponent gets higher. I have only ever done this a handful of times. I bet it is similar for other players of this deck.
This is a very important idea to look at. Yet again Threshold comes out shining after a major change to the game. That deck has been getting a steady stream of all the best stuff for several years now. I don't think any of the changes hurt Threshold. Tarmo even gets a small boost. And since a number of other decks do get hurt, it seems that Threshold benefits again thus entrenching it deeper into the top spot.
We are approaching a tipping point here. I wonder how long it will take for the boat to topple.
If they were gonna hit anything from the deck, it'd be top and brainstorm. While those cards on their own are very powerful but not degenerate in 1.5, when enough selectors are used in a deck via CA engines like Bob or along with ponder or serum visions, it creates thresh. Minus brainstorm and top the deck would still be very good, but it would lose CB and its best cantrip.
Incorrect. Armadillo Cloak and any other card that was originally printed without the lifelink keyword will be un-errata'd, and thus will still provide a stacking lifegain ability.
I know Armadillo Cloak and the cards printed with out the phrase life link WILL stack, but when you you actually gain the life? My friend uses exalted angel in every deck he builds and it is actually very relative.
Most likely it will be like how lifelink works now. So, when Child of Night attacks, you gain life at the same time she deals damage. When Exalted Angel attacks, she deals damage and then her "lifelink" ability will trigger and go on the stack.
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Earthcraft is quite banned. It's just too good. Sheesh, I recall I could get infinate saprolings, each with infinate power and toughness, on turn 3 off using it back in the day. We won't be seeing this card come off the banned list ever I should imagine.
Its funny how he didnt discuss anything about land tax (as if its a sure thing)
with the current cardpool in legacy, do you think land tax is balanced now or is it still broken?
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