The turn that Tin Street comes into play an artifact is destroyed, but with Tinkerer you have to wait until the next turn unless you have goblin warchief out!
After Tinkerer destroys an artifact he is usually dead due to self inflicted damage. On the other hand, Tin Street stays in play and can do some damage.
Finally, Tin Street can only be stifled or countered! Tinkerer can be disabled with pithing needel.
Tin Street Hooligan is hands down better and mono red is horrible.
If you have a Warchief in play then Hooligan's ability can't be used; not so with Tinkerer.
Vial'ing in Hooligan again means his ability is no good; again, not so with Tinkerer.
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In my opinion, goblin tinkerer is better because of how both cards interact with goblin warchief, because the tinkerer is reusable, and because the tinkerer survives one engineered plague. Vialing out a Tinkerer is also the only way around Stax with a Chalice at 2.
In the end, it's useless to argue tinkerer versus tin street. The real problem is figuring out which of the five colors is the best for goblins.
In my opinion, goblin tinkerer is better because of how both cards interact with goblin warchief, because the tinkerer is reusable, and because the tinkerer survives one engineered plague. Vialing out a Tinkerer is also the only way around Stax with a Chalice at 2.
In the end, it's useless to argue tinkerer versus tin street. The real problem is figuring out which of the five colors is the best for goblins.
I agree that tinkerer does interact better with warchief. With that said, Tin Street is usually only used before chief sees play. I have found that tin street is used early in the game while I'm trying to gain board position. After the opponents pithing needle or aether vial is destroyed, my chief comes out. Then, I build up an army to swarm for the win.
Most of the time your opponent will drop an artifact that needs to be destroyed early enough where chief will not be in play.
Also, stax is a super easy match up. I have never lost to that deck. Your card advantage is too great for them to deal with. Ringleader wins this match up along side with his buddy SGC.
I agree that tinkerer does interact better with warchief. With that said, Tin Street is usually only used before chief sees play. I have found that tin street is used early in the game while I'm trying to gain board position. After the opponents pithing needle or aether vial is destroyed, my chief comes out. Then, I build up an army to swarm for the win.
Most of the time your opponent will drop an artifact that needs to be destroyed early enough where chief will not be in play.
Also, stax is a super easy match up. I have never lost to that deck. Your card advantage is too great for them to deal with. Ringleader wins this match up along side with his buddy SGC.
Regards,
The matchup seems decent, but what about ensnaring bridge? Do they run that? If they can empty their hand (Chrome Mox does a good job of this, along with chalice) then it could be a longer game than you bargained for. Atleast until you draw a Tinkerer/Hooligan.
The purpose behind my arguments from earlier were only to say that tinkerer is approximately as good as tin street.
In additon, I don't think that tin street alone is a good enough reason to splash green. Then again, I have heard that a color splash weakens goblins, but it seems unfounded now. To be honest, I think that using tinkerer in monored is just as weak as using tin street in green (because it's reactive rather than offensive). The only reason that I can see why a colorsplash would be weaker is because of wasteland vulnerability, and it could be very slightly difficult to find the [card="taiga"]green source.
Could someone please provide their sideboard for R/g? I've been running through so many different options, and with the Gencon championships 2 days away, I'd really like to just see what someone else has used for success. Also, how many gempalms is a good number for a deck? It seems like getting flooded with them is bad. Last question: Nimble mongoose is quite the savage little ****er. If they get thresh, do we just hope to outrace it?
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Could someone please provide their sideboard for R/g? I've been running through so many different options, and with the Gencon championships 2 days away, I'd really like to just see what someone else has used for success. Also, how many gempalms is a good number for a deck? It seems like getting flooded with them is bad. Last question: Nimble mongoose is quite the savage little ****er. If they get thresh, do we just hope to outrace it?
Green is not a great splash. You can deal with Plauge but not Combo. The Cabal Therpays help you nail improt combo cards like Reset, Iggy and Freeze. Chailce for 0 hinders Iggy-Pop and for 2 or 1 verse High tide is game. A msot for all SB.
The marshall has become a great surprise verse the Mirror. I have three goblins to your one. Mogg Marshall when it comes down to it is one of the most effisent creatures in the deck along side Ringleader and SGC.
and Oh, DONT ***** ABOUT ECHO. Most of the time you Vial it or Lackey it in. rarly do I hard cast it unless its 4 or 5th turn.
I respect what you are saying, but I have to throw much of it out the window.
Goblins win by over loading your opponit with more then he can hanlde. I dont know if there is a lot of Standstill decks packing wraths and dammnations but over here there are a ton. Mogg gives you a andanvge over them if they wrath and if you are a smart goblin play, you will hold your warcheif and piledrivers back till they do. Mogg helps with that adding three points of damage(1 with body, 2 with driver).
Im not the kinda of guy that says **** out of his mouth, I know my goblins and to add Mogg Marashal in it had to be better then good, but great.
He his often my SB for combo decks and MBC decks as I rather have King, which I dont know why i wrote down as sharpshooter but I did, and I would rather have Therapy to deal with Plague.
I have tested over 100 games and faced more then 20 other goblin decks and 10 different archives including Threshold, MBC, Solar Flare(Stax), Red death etc. Mogg has time and time again proven himself worth the spot over something like Pyrokinese, sharpshoop and Kiki.
Lets try your view, they blow up Vial. No big deal really. you sit back a couple of turns, **** with his mana will playing smaller goblins like fanatic, marshal and matron then go for the kill.
yes, I admite at times I dont like him but 70/30 the advanges of him outweigh the cons.
Pros:
1. two for the price of one and sometimes 3
2. adds piledriver damage
3. Give SGC more amo for the Mirror
4. Kills a piledriver in the mirror with a troop standing
5. helps you rebuild after a mass removal spell
Con:
1. Has echo
2. Not a true two drop like piledriver
3. Without Vial/Lackey is a tricky hard cast
4.
As well as the splash, There is a **** ton of combo around and pending on the tourny im at and the people I know I will choice or not to choice to MD therapy. As it stands right now they are SB, but I feel like it needs to be done I will MD them.
24 land sounds good. I had been using 22, but 24 sounds a lot more reliable. In the melee match-up, land drops help a lot. With ringleader and pyrokinesis, goblins should be efficient enough even if the player draws into that extra land.
In monored, the obvious change would be...
-1 gempalm incinerator (to make 3)
-1 goblin tinkerer (to make 3)
+2 mountain
After all of this discussion, I'm starting to think that monored is inferior to colorsplash. After the upcoming legacy event, I'll probably change my deck to include a colorsplash. However, I am currently leaning towards black and blue because I fear combo the most. Either way, I don't think that it's worth it for me to discuss potential splashes yet.
This is extremely random, but has anyone considered sideboarding 1xGoblin Wizard? This allows the piledriver to cruise through most white decks, which can be a pain, starting on turn four. No more blocking with mom, pikula, white knight, and angels. It also stops StP against white control and UGw thresh.
For Sr. Kitty's decklist, have you considered Thick-Skinned Goblin against the mirror instead of (or in some weird addition to) Mogg War Marshal. The Marshall seems too inefficient to maindeck. It's a two-for-one, but all you get are 1/1's. Against control, they all just die to explosives, plague, or wrath. The extra body pumps the piledriver for two more damage, but piledriver usually either wins you the game or gets chumped, stifled, or tapped. Against the mirror, you could have just played a 2/2 or a good utility creature. I admit that the Marshal is one of the best goblins not in the normal decklist, but I don't think that it is good enough to make the cut.
I proxied it in my build and it outshines most other cards in the deck. It essentially gives piledriver evasion and doubles his damage, so unless they use instant speed removal, theyre toast. It can also be used on a 2/x gobbo just to get in there for 2
Also, it only costs G and with fetches, you always have a dual.
I run 2-3 in my proxied up version, and i wonder why nobody uses it? Is it the price?
Media is not making me steal. But in a way is like the story of the very hot girl with the short skirt teasing the old sick guy with a history of rape.
I proxied it in my build and it outshines most other cards in the deck. It essentially gives piledriver evasion and doubles his damage, so unless they use instant speed removal, theyre toast. It can also be used on a 2/x gobbo just to get in there for 2
Also, it only costs G and with fetches, you always have a dual.
I run 2-3 in my proxied up version, and i wonder why nobody uses it? Is it the price?
Berserk can't deal with stp, stifle, or tapping spells, which is what ruins the piledriver half the time. If the only thing stopping a piledriver is a creature, then goblin is in pretty good shape. The only exception that I can think of is against pro-red creatures. One choice that is probably better is to use Skarrg, the rage pits. Doubling the damage from a piledriver is usually overkills unless your match is very close.
I went 4-2 drop in the Gencon tournament for a finish in the top 1/3, got 3 packs and a Backpack. EE was great all day long, as was everything else for that matter. I'll probably have a better report sometime tomorrow, and I'll post it here for those that are interested.
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After watching all of the goblins players scrub out at gen con (not that they didn't play well but didn't make top 8), I started to wonder if the deck has become obsolete in the current meta game.
Combo can usually crush goblins and now the new GUR threshold deck sporting wasteland can smash goblins too.
If you have tried the match up of goblins against the new GUR thresh (w/wasteland) please let me know your results. I ran my own version of GUR thresh (which is posted in the thresh thread) and I went 4-0 in games (2 rounds) against goblins and 3-1 in the tournament this past monday.
I also noticed that the best goblins player in the world (owen) didn't make top 8 with goblins. I heard that he lost to the threshold variant with wasteland (don't quote me).
I think goblins may be dead in the current legacy meta (at least it is in mine).
Let me know your thoughts (after testing please!).
Monored dodges wasteland. If you're going to splash, then black is the best choice if combo is so rampant. Which win condition does Iggy currently use, anyway? Is anyone else kind of excited about Fodder Launch? At the least, I'm sure Lorwyn will have something cool for goblins. The last time they did a tribal block, it basically made the current goblin deck for legacy, even in spite of the loss of goblin recruiter.
the real problem is tarmagoyf not wasteland. i am begining to think you will see a resurgence of red/white gobos.
Sword to plowshares/condemn.
I don't agree that tarmogoyf is the only new threat for gobos from the threshold decks of today. Wasteland screws over rishdan port, which is a staple for gobos. Threshold used to be a super easy match up for gobos, but now the red splash with goyf and waste is really a tough match up.
I do agree however that the white spash may help gobos deal with tarmogoyf better. Although, all of the red cards in thresh plus wasteland are still tough to deal with. You still can't hit mongoose with swords!
Also, by switching to the white splash you loose more to the green splash for gobos. They can smoke your vial so much easier (tin street for the win).
I still think mono red gobos is really bad. They will fall to the new thresh even easier. Plus, mono red looses to almost everything else in the format right now anyways. I don't think anyone at gen con even ran mono red. hahaha
Again, please TEST this match up before posting ideas. You will be suprised how much the new GUR thresh runs over gobos!
I still think mono red gobos is really bad. They will fall to the new thresh even easier. Plus, mono red looses to almost everything else in the format right now anyways. I don't think anyone at gen con even ran mono red. hahaha
Why does monored lose to threshold even faster? I've already pointed out that monored is immune to wasteland, which is apparently a huge problem all of a sudden. In my testing, I found maindeck needle to be much more annoying, although both cards are easily answerable in any goblin deck. Wasteland hardly seems worthwhile in threshold, which will already suffer some card and tempo disadvantage against goblins (fow, daze). I don't think that sacrificing your own land drops to take out the opponent's is a very good idea for a quasi control deck, especially when it is facing goblins, a deck that doesn't really need land. However, this isn't the place to argue about threshold; my point is that wasteland is nothing new to the format. At the least, a goblin player would have just as much trouble with it in a mirror match. Secondly, if anything, monored will have a superior matchup against wasteland for obvious reasons.
There's no reason why monored loses to everything else in the format. That is to say, there's no reason why monored loses worse than R/x goblins. Considering the Gen Con results, all goblin decks appear to be lacking. The only thing that monored can't deal with directly is plague, which is clearly not as big of a problem as combo. Suffice it to say, even if monored is weaker, according to Gen Con, all goblin decks are weak.
I don't think that a white splash for StP/Condemn is very justified considering how much better gempalm incinerator is. The only advantage of the white spells is that you do not need to have goblins on the field in order to use them. Against threshold, if you have no goblins on the field, it doesn't matter how many colors you splash because you've already lost. Gempalm incinerator replaces itself, dodges counters, is matronable, is ringleaderable, and also works as a creature in a pinch.
Keep in mind that Tarmogoyf is not automatically a 4/5 or larger if it appears on turn two. There should be plenty of time to find an answer. Aside from that, goblins can easily outrace threshold. With only a piledriver and two goblins attacking, the opponent would likely lose their tarmogoyf in a block. Tarmogoyf is nothing more than a deformed werebear that can't even produce mana. The fact that one doesn't need threshold is irrelevant; threshold is still forced onto the defensive, and any fat bodies will simply fall to piledriver. The piledriver is much easier to replace on the field with the efficiency of goblins. Besides, a turn one crypt is still a pain for threshold to deal with.
Why does monored lose to threshold even faster? I've already pointed out that monored is immune to wasteland, which is apparently a huge problem all of a sudden. In my testing, I found maindeck needle to be much more annoying, although both cards are easily answerable in any goblin deck. Wasteland hardly seems worthwhile in threshold, which will already suffer some card and tempo disadvantage against goblins (fow, daze). I don't think that sacrificing your own land drops to take out the opponent's is a very good idea for a quasi control deck, especially when it is facing goblins, a deck that doesn't really need land. However, this isn't the place to argue about threshold; my point is that wasteland is nothing new to the format. At the least, a goblin player would have just as much trouble with it in a mirror match. Secondly, if anything, monored will have a superior matchup against wasteland for obvious reasons.
There's no reason why monored loses to everything else in the format. That is to say, there's no reason why monored loses worse than R/x goblins. Considering the Gen Con results, all goblin decks appear to be lacking. The only thing that monored can't deal with directly is plague, which is clearly not as big of a problem as combo. Suffice it to say, even if monored is weaker, according to Gen Con, all goblin decks are weak.
I don't think that a white splash for StP/Condemn is very justified considering how much better gempalm incinerator is. The only advantage of the white spells is that you do not need to have goblins on the field in order to use them. Against threshold, if you have no goblins on the field, it doesn't matter how many colors you splash because you've already lost. Gempalm incinerator replaces itself, dodges counters, is matronable, is ringleaderable, and also works as a creature in a pinch.
Keep in mind that Tarmogoyf is not automatically a 4/5 or larger if it appears on turn two. There should be plenty of time to find an answer. Aside from that, goblins can easily outrace threshold. With only a piledriver and two goblins attacking, the opponent would likely lose their tarmogoyf in a block. Tarmogoyf is nothing more than a deformed werebear that can't even produce mana. The fact that one doesn't need threshold is irrelevant; threshold is still forced onto the defensive, and any fat bodies will simply fall to piledriver. The piledriver is much easier to replace on the field with the efficiency of goblins. Besides, a turn one crypt is still a pain for threshold to deal with.
Doesn't your goblins deck run rishdan port? Wasteland in thresh now allows for a permenant answer to being ported!
Mono red can't deal with E-Plague efficiently. That makes it bad! When I played gobos against black decks that run e-plague it was an uphill battle.
Mono red has to have warchief and tinkerer in play to deal with artifacts. Any other splash needs a single card. Horrible!
Incinerator is amazing against goyf. That's if you have out enought gobos to blast him.
If you are playing against thresh players that drop goyf on turn two and he is less than a 3/4, your competitors are lacking.
Goblins DID outrace thresh, but with the new build it is much more difficult. Also, thresh players can counter your big threats (vial, chief, lackey) and then smoke your other creatures with burn. So easy!
Threshold didn't usually run wasteland, so now that it does and is posting incredible results IT IS A PROBLEM FOR GOBLINS! I haven't lost a single game running the new thresh against goblins. <----I Tested, did you????
I suggest you TEST the thresh deck with wasteland before you talk. Mono red has not posted good results in a MAJOR legacy tournament in years. The reasons stated above are a part of that.
How is talking about a deck without testing it constructive? Just talking isn't constructive. Back it up with TESTING!
malchar - just because I think mono red goblins are really bad and outdated, don't think that i'm not being helpful/constructive. Get over your deck and your oppinion and just post ideas. It's not an attack on you but your deck choice.
If thresh uses a turn to play a land, then sacs that land to kill a port doesn't that just turn your port into a wasteland? Which would put goblins ahead since thresh runs such a low land count and goblins still has 4 other wastelands. Its even worse for thresh if goblins has a vial/warchief/lackey out. Wasteland is not the problem for goblins its Tarmogoyf backed up by burn.
Does anyone know where those older goblin decklists with fecundity are? I'm considering testing something like that. Goblins might have to become much more combo-oriented. Other than that, I'm just going to stock up on lorwyn. That black tribal sorcery looks pretty fun even though it costs a lot. The five life loss is pretty nice, but I still wish it were an instant.
I run the white splash in goblins. Wasteland is not a problem tarmogoyf is not a problem... NIMBLE MONGOOSE! Give the card credit... He tears this deck appart having a bigger body than every card but PDriver. Tarmogoyf is gempalmable and swordable. Oh and not to be hard but mono red is not playable you need a splash or else you won't have answers to E Plague tarmogoyf or any other good cards... BTW I won a jank legacy tournament today with RW Gobbos playing raffinity (extended) then GUR THRESH, then Mono black.
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If you have a Warchief in play then Hooligan's ability can't be used; not so with Tinkerer.
Vial'ing in Hooligan again means his ability is no good; again, not so with Tinkerer.
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In my opinion, goblin tinkerer is better because of how both cards interact with goblin warchief, because the tinkerer is reusable, and because the tinkerer survives one engineered plague. Vialing out a Tinkerer is also the only way around Stax with a Chalice at 2.
In the end, it's useless to argue tinkerer versus tin street. The real problem is figuring out which of the five colors is the best for goblins.
I agree that tinkerer does interact better with warchief. With that said, Tin Street is usually only used before chief sees play. I have found that tin street is used early in the game while I'm trying to gain board position. After the opponents pithing needle or aether vial is destroyed, my chief comes out. Then, I build up an army to swarm for the win.
Most of the time your opponent will drop an artifact that needs to be destroyed early enough where chief will not be in play.
Also, stax is a super easy match up. I have never lost to that deck. Your card advantage is too great for them to deal with. Ringleader wins this match up along side with his buddy SGC.
Regards,
The matchup seems decent, but what about ensnaring bridge? Do they run that? If they can empty their hand (Chrome Mox does a good job of this, along with chalice) then it could be a longer game than you bargained for. Atleast until you draw a Tinkerer/Hooligan.
The purpose behind my arguments from earlier were only to say that tinkerer is approximately as good as tin street.
In additon, I don't think that tin street alone is a good enough reason to splash green. Then again, I have heard that a color splash weakens goblins, but it seems unfounded now. To be honest, I think that using tinkerer in monored is just as weak as using tin street in green (because it's reactive rather than offensive). The only reason that I can see why a colorsplash would be weaker is because of wasteland vulnerability, and it could be very slightly difficult to find the [card="taiga"]green source.
Here's my sideboard:
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
I'd run 3-4 Gempalm Incerators.
Answer Nimble Mongoose with Engineered Explosives or outrace it.
Ugh, I wasted so much time and now I've gotta scramble in the dealer's hall to get these cards.
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
6 Mountain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshall (NEEDS TO BE ADDED)
4 Goblin Warcheif
4 Goblin Marton
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Segie-Gang
3 Gemplam Incinerator
4 Chailce ov the Void
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Pithing Needle
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshoor
1 Goblin Tinker
Green is not a great splash. You can deal with Plauge but not Combo. The Cabal Therpays help you nail improt combo cards like Reset, Iggy and Freeze. Chailce for 0 hinders Iggy-Pop and for 2 or 1 verse High tide is game. A msot for all SB.
The marshall has become a great surprise verse the Mirror. I have three goblins to your one. Mogg Marshall when it comes down to it is one of the most effisent creatures in the deck along side Ringleader and SGC.
and Oh, DONT ***** ABOUT ECHO. Most of the time you Vial it or Lackey it in. rarly do I hard cast it unless its 4 or 5th turn.
Goblins win by over loading your opponit with more then he can hanlde. I dont know if there is a lot of Standstill decks packing wraths and dammnations but over here there are a ton. Mogg gives you a andanvge over them if they wrath and if you are a smart goblin play, you will hold your warcheif and piledrivers back till they do. Mogg helps with that adding three points of damage(1 with body, 2 with driver).
Im not the kinda of guy that says **** out of his mouth, I know my goblins and to add Mogg Marashal in it had to be better then good, but great.
He his often my SB for combo decks and MBC decks as I rather have King, which I dont know why i wrote down as sharpshooter but I did, and I would rather have Therapy to deal with Plague.
I have tested over 100 games and faced more then 20 other goblin decks and 10 different archives including Threshold, MBC, Solar Flare(Stax), Red death etc. Mogg has time and time again proven himself worth the spot over something like Pyrokinese, sharpshoop and Kiki.
Lets try your view, they blow up Vial. No big deal really. you sit back a couple of turns, **** with his mana will playing smaller goblins like fanatic, marshal and matron then go for the kill.
yes, I admite at times I dont like him but 70/30 the advanges of him outweigh the cons.
Pros:
1. two for the price of one and sometimes 3
2. adds piledriver damage
3. Give SGC more amo for the Mirror
4. Kills a piledriver in the mirror with a troop standing
5. helps you rebuild after a mass removal spell
Con:
1. Has echo
2. Not a true two drop like piledriver
3. Without Vial/Lackey is a tricky hard cast
4.
As well as the splash, There is a **** ton of combo around and pending on the tourny im at and the people I know I will choice or not to choice to MD therapy. As it stands right now they are SB, but I feel like it needs to be done I will MD them.
In monored, the obvious change would be...
-1 gempalm incinerator (to make 3)
-1 goblin tinkerer (to make 3)
+2 mountain
After all of this discussion, I'm starting to think that monored is inferior to colorsplash. After the upcoming legacy event, I'll probably change my deck to include a colorsplash. However, I am currently leaning towards black and blue because I fear combo the most. Either way, I don't think that it's worth it for me to discuss potential splashes yet.
This is extremely random, but has anyone considered sideboarding 1xGoblin Wizard? This allows the piledriver to cruise through most white decks, which can be a pain, starting on turn four. No more blocking with mom, pikula, white knight, and angels. It also stops StP against white control and UGw thresh.
For Sr. Kitty's decklist, have you considered Thick-Skinned Goblin against the mirror instead of (or in some weird addition to) Mogg War Marshal. The Marshall seems too inefficient to maindeck. It's a two-for-one, but all you get are 1/1's. Against control, they all just die to explosives, plague, or wrath. The extra body pumps the piledriver for two more damage, but piledriver usually either wins you the game or gets chumped, stifled, or tapped. Against the mirror, you could have just played a 2/2 or a good utility creature. I admit that the Marshal is one of the best goblins not in the normal decklist, but I don't think that it is good enough to make the cut.
I proxied it in my build and it outshines most other cards in the deck. It essentially gives piledriver evasion and doubles his damage, so unless they use instant speed removal, theyre toast. It can also be used on a 2/x gobbo just to get in there for 2
Also, it only costs G and with fetches, you always have a dual.
I run 2-3 in my proxied up version, and i wonder why nobody uses it? Is it the price?
Berserk can't deal with stp, stifle, or tapping spells, which is what ruins the piledriver half the time. If the only thing stopping a piledriver is a creature, then goblin is in pretty good shape. The only exception that I can think of is against pro-red creatures. One choice that is probably better is to use Skarrg, the rage pits. Doubling the damage from a piledriver is usually overkills unless your match is very close.
Combo can usually crush goblins and now the new GUR threshold deck sporting wasteland can smash goblins too.
If you have tried the match up of goblins against the new GUR thresh (w/wasteland) please let me know your results. I ran my own version of GUR thresh (which is posted in the thresh thread) and I went 4-0 in games (2 rounds) against goblins and 3-1 in the tournament this past monday.
I also noticed that the best goblins player in the world (owen) didn't make top 8 with goblins. I heard that he lost to the threshold variant with wasteland (don't quote me).
I think goblins may be dead in the current legacy meta (at least it is in mine).
Let me know your thoughts (after testing please!).
Regards,
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Sword to plowshares/condemn.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=532795
I don't agree that tarmogoyf is the only new threat for gobos from the threshold decks of today. Wasteland screws over rishdan port, which is a staple for gobos. Threshold used to be a super easy match up for gobos, but now the red splash with goyf and waste is really a tough match up.
I do agree however that the white spash may help gobos deal with tarmogoyf better. Although, all of the red cards in thresh plus wasteland are still tough to deal with. You still can't hit mongoose with swords!
Also, by switching to the white splash you loose more to the green splash for gobos. They can smoke your vial so much easier (tin street for the win).
I still think mono red gobos is really bad. They will fall to the new thresh even easier. Plus, mono red looses to almost everything else in the format right now anyways. I don't think anyone at gen con even ran mono red. hahaha
Again, please TEST this match up before posting ideas. You will be suprised how much the new GUR thresh runs over gobos!
Regards,
Why does monored lose to threshold even faster? I've already pointed out that monored is immune to wasteland, which is apparently a huge problem all of a sudden. In my testing, I found maindeck needle to be much more annoying, although both cards are easily answerable in any goblin deck. Wasteland hardly seems worthwhile in threshold, which will already suffer some card and tempo disadvantage against goblins (fow, daze). I don't think that sacrificing your own land drops to take out the opponent's is a very good idea for a quasi control deck, especially when it is facing goblins, a deck that doesn't really need land. However, this isn't the place to argue about threshold; my point is that wasteland is nothing new to the format. At the least, a goblin player would have just as much trouble with it in a mirror match. Secondly, if anything, monored will have a superior matchup against wasteland for obvious reasons.
There's no reason why monored loses to everything else in the format. That is to say, there's no reason why monored loses worse than R/x goblins. Considering the Gen Con results, all goblin decks appear to be lacking. The only thing that monored can't deal with directly is plague, which is clearly not as big of a problem as combo. Suffice it to say, even if monored is weaker, according to Gen Con, all goblin decks are weak.
I don't think that a white splash for StP/Condemn is very justified considering how much better gempalm incinerator is. The only advantage of the white spells is that you do not need to have goblins on the field in order to use them. Against threshold, if you have no goblins on the field, it doesn't matter how many colors you splash because you've already lost. Gempalm incinerator replaces itself, dodges counters, is matronable, is ringleaderable, and also works as a creature in a pinch.
Keep in mind that Tarmogoyf is not automatically a 4/5 or larger if it appears on turn two. There should be plenty of time to find an answer. Aside from that, goblins can easily outrace threshold. With only a piledriver and two goblins attacking, the opponent would likely lose their tarmogoyf in a block. Tarmogoyf is nothing more than a deformed werebear that can't even produce mana. The fact that one doesn't need threshold is irrelevant; threshold is still forced onto the defensive, and any fat bodies will simply fall to piledriver. The piledriver is much easier to replace on the field with the efficiency of goblins. Besides, a turn one crypt is still a pain for threshold to deal with.
Doesn't your goblins deck run rishdan port? Wasteland in thresh now allows for a permenant answer to being ported!
Mono red can't deal with E-Plague efficiently. That makes it bad! When I played gobos against black decks that run e-plague it was an uphill battle.
Mono red has to have warchief and tinkerer in play to deal with artifacts. Any other splash needs a single card. Horrible!
Incinerator is amazing against goyf. That's if you have out enought gobos to blast him.
If you are playing against thresh players that drop goyf on turn two and he is less than a 3/4, your competitors are lacking.
Goblins DID outrace thresh, but with the new build it is much more difficult. Also, thresh players can counter your big threats (vial, chief, lackey) and then smoke your other creatures with burn. So easy!
Threshold didn't usually run wasteland, so now that it does and is posting incredible results IT IS A PROBLEM FOR GOBLINS! I haven't lost a single game running the new thresh against goblins. <----I Tested, did you????
I suggest you TEST the thresh deck with wasteland before you talk. Mono red has not posted good results in a MAJOR legacy tournament in years. The reasons stated above are a part of that.
How is talking about a deck without testing it constructive? Just talking isn't constructive. Back it up with TESTING!
malchar - just because I think mono red goblins are really bad and outdated, don't think that i'm not being helpful/constructive. Get over your deck and your oppinion and just post ideas. It's not an attack on you but your deck choice.
Regards,