I have asked Avatar if we could move this thread into the Proven Competitive section. However in the mean time I thought it would be nice to be able to get people started discussing this deck.
The deck was initially designed as kind of a joke. At first it was known as "Europe" as it was designed by Dave Gearheart as a means to counteract the cards that are played primarily in Europe. However shortly there after deck designer Daniel Signorini helped Dave Gearheart to modify the deck for an American Audience. Initially it featured Dreadnaughts, however they were discovered to be too consuming of the resources of the deck, which would be prefered to be used on the opponents cards.
Eventually others were brought into the job of modifying the deck for the American audience, most notably Eric G., and the Team NoVa Legacy players.
The idea of the deck is to use the heavy beaters to establish as much threat power to win the game, while at the same time using the counterspell and disruption suite to prevent the opponent from being able to do much of anything. The deck is essentially a cross bread of the best parts of the UGb Threshold and Eva Green decks.
If I were to design a sideboard for the deck it would look something like the following:
The reason is because the deck requires mostly non-basic land based, however it is incredibly screwed if it comes up against a Dragon Stompy match up, so having basic lands in the sideboard would help mitigate that issue.
P.S. the deck listed went top-4 in the Legacy Anniversery Tournament at MTG the Source!
Closer to Eva Green/u or UGb Thrash, although it runs less threats and Rituals than Suicide, and less manipulation and Mongeese than Thresh. Anyways, the deck is built for extreme tempo - Snuff Out is free, so it's played. The deck simply never wants to pay 3 mana for anything. It wants to blow opponent's lands up, deny them any relevant spells, kill Goyfs with Snuff and mop up with Stalker or Goyf. Preferably before they get lands.
Couldn't have said it better myself, thanks Eldariel
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Go Dave. You are on a roll.
Still, we all know that good cards go in good decks. But I am constantly amazed at how narrow the selection seems to be with these guys. I'm considering gathering all the card names from the decent decks I see at TheSource in a hat. Then I will pull enough out of the hat to make a deck. Then I will brand it.
I like pizza. But there are only so many ways you can combine dough, sauce, and cheese before it all starts to taste the same.
The deck looks decent but Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf can be anti synergistic against each other. Graveyard removal, now a common theme in sideboards today, hurts. Fortunately, Thresh has proved that graveyard removal vs. Goyf and gang isn't as unmanageable as we speculate. The :symb::symb: For Tombstalker and Sinkhole looks like it can be rough when you also want as much blue mana available for Brainstorming, Pondering, and Stifling, while also having one available for the 'Goyf.
The deck looks decent but Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf can be anti synergistic against each other. Graveyard removal, now a common theme in sideboards today, hurts. Fortunately, Thresh has proved that graveyard removal vs. Goyf and gang isn't as unmanageable as we speculate.
This deck runs enough cards to put things into the graveyard that it shouldn't be all that problematic. Plus you should only need one or the other of the threats in any given game, not both. But I do see where you are coming from.
The :symb::symb: For Tombstalker and Sinkhole looks like it can be rough when you also want as much blue mana available for Brainstorming, Pondering, and Stifling, while also having one available for the 'Goyf.
Hence the dual lands
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Yeah, but this is legacy, we have so many different toppings, as to make the dough, sauce, and cheese kinda not as important in the mix
OK. But this deck does not use any of them. Every last card (I suppose Snuff out is not quite mainstream) can be found in plenty of other decks. Sorry, I don't want to harp too much on this. I wish Isamaru would get over his issues and rejoin this forum. His ideas were original and reasonably competitive.
OK. But this deck does not use any of them. Every last card (I suppose Snuff out is not quite mainstream) can be found in plenty of other decks. Sorry, I don't want to harp too much on this. I wish Isamaru would get over his issues and rejoin this forum. His ideas were original and reasonably competitive.
yeah, well you have to remember that I didn't really design this deck, I am simply presenting it for the Legacy players of the MTGSal community. The deck itself was designed by people who post over at the Source forums, who participated in the Sources anniversary Tournament.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
How early does this deck win? I'm almost positive I played against something like this. The deck I was facing spent most of what was an informal tournament struggling until the fifth turn.
I guess the best way to put it is how long do you stall before Tombstalker or Tarmogoyf comes out?
How early does this deck win? I'm almost positive I played against something like this. The deck I was facing spent most of what was an informal tournament struggling until the fifth turn.
I guess the best way to put it is how long do you stall before Tombstalker or Tarmogoyf comes out?
I would have to do some serious play testing to figure that out....
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
i have been testing this and really havent been too impressed. snuff out is not enough to take care of creatures.. and once they stock pile a few in their hands and send em out its an uphill battle if they have answers for your stalkers/goyfs.
i havent had many problems with goyf/stalker dis-synergy yet, but it certainly exists i was overrun by fairies before.. and had an exalted angel slip threw my counters and was throughly beat down as i frantically searched for a stalker. surprisingly wasteland has been a dead draw 2 out of 3 times.. which defies probability.. but just figured id mention it as a side note.
i have been testing this and really havent been too impressed. snuff out is not enough to take care of creatures.. and once they stock pile a few in their hands and send em out its an uphill battle if they have answers for your stalkers/goyfs.
i havent had many problems with goyf/stalker dis-synergy yet, but it certainly exists i was overrun by fairies before.. and had an exalted angel slip threw my counters and was throughly beat down as i frantically searched for a stalker. surprisingly wasteland has been a dead draw 2 out of 3 times.. which defies probability.. but just figured id mention it as a side note.
Thank you for the testing
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
I've not been testing this list directly but everything else I have been testing seems to have a pretty easy time dealing with this deck. That would be:
Food Chain Goblins
B/W Zombies
Beast Stompy
None of which are in any way mainstream, but they run the gambit of Aggro-Combo, Aggro, and Aggro-Control. Zombies and Goblins just have more/better creatures, and Trinisphere and chalice just ruin this deck.
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I edit after I post... just a heads up.
Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Team MKM rocks Pro Tour Berlin (*cough* anyway, one of the major side events *cough*)
Cheers fellas,
yesterday I managed to take home the trophy for the Legacy event of the Pro Tour Berlin and picked up the 1st prize: 30 rev. Duals (!)
This is my "obligatory" report.
Nov. 1st: Attracted by the undeniably sexy prize support 113 players from all over Europe gather to fight for glory and, well, 40 Duals and stuff.
As expected, the majority of the field is made up by my homies from the Berlin area and players from Northern Germany.
UWr Dreadstill epically failing me at the Legacy Old Box Trial on the previous day made me want to play something really straight forward, yet versatile and just as powerful if possible. Also, making those 8 rounds while not suffering a burnout was part of the plan. As my teammates arranged 4 Goyfs and 4 Sinkholes my choice was fairly easy. A slightly modified Team America should turn out to be the optimal meta call.
Here's my list:
Team MKM* - NOV 2008
*TA 1.1
MD:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Snuff Out
1 Ghastly Demise (to be discussed)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought (more on this choice @the bottom of the page..)
(41)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp
(19)
SB:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives (to be discussed)
2 Tormod's Crypt (s.a.)
2 Dark Confidant (s.a.)
Round I
VS a Burn.dec playing Viking. G1: After his Mountain->Lava Spike it's clear what I'm up against. I'm aware this MU can be troublesome if I don't manage to land an early fattie and beat for 5 per turn. With Thoughtseize, Snuff Out and Demise being dead cards, G1 might have turned out bad, so I dropped a turn 3 Nought ftw.
IN: 4 BEBS - OUT: creature hate
G2: A turn 2+3 Goyfs finish him in short order.
Round II
VS the Mighty Quinn (sans Painter combo)
As I later gather my opponent came in 5th the previous day. Being rooted in Extended he starts to chatter about the allegedly low playskill level of the average Legacy player. Good thing I could teach him a lesson. Hah! G1: After mulling to 6 I keep a mana denial hand fit to beat any deck featuring lots of non basics..I scoop to Scepter+Chant (no MD outs - meh)
IN: 2 Bobs, 2 Grips, 2 EEs - OUT: Creature hate, 1 Stifle, 1 Nought G2: I keep my 7 consisting of Fetch, Sea, Waste, Confidant, Daze, Force and Sinkhole which leads to him struggling for mana and folding to the goodies Bob drew. I think he didn't resolve a single spell after Bob hit. G3: See G2. I destroy his lands like it was my job, counter anything relevant and kill him with Stalker.
At this point I still think that the deck had luck-sacked its way to that evil load of disruption...:wink:
Round III
VS Max playing UWb Cunning LS (pretty much agreed upon list)
I know Max from previous tourneys. He's a decent opponent and didn't commit any obvious blunders, afaik. I hadn't tested this MU before and wasn't quite aware that it's in my favor. G1: OK. This was lucky..ich draw no less than 3 Sinkholes during the earlygame = he dies a painfull death
IN: 2 Grips, 2 Bobs - OUT: creature hate G2: It was Max's turn to goddraw now. He kills 3 early Goyfs and somehow resolves 2 Humilities and 1 Crucible (+A. Ruins). I scoop. G3: See G1. I thoughtseize him twice, destroy most of his land and 2 Stalkers stalk him to death. Max is pissed. I don't care.:cool:
Round IV
VS Marvin playing Geddon Stax
This is the first game that proved the basics' awesomeness. G1: I waste his Tomb, daze a 3sphere, seize an O. Ring and have a Stalker enter the field. Marvin establishes a Crucible-Waste lock in the meantime. But the basics I fetched before shrug at his lock and the lonely Ghostly Prison, so Tombstalker (this guy needs a nick) knocks him out.
IN: 2 Bobs, 2 Grips, 2 EEs OUT: Creature hate, 1 Stifle, 1 Nought G2: Marvin starts with Plains->Go (whew, so far so good!) I go land go, too and watch him drop a mysterious morph. Luckily I hold an EE exploding the Angel byebye. I continue to thoughtseize anything relevant, so Stalker can nail down my 4-0-0.
Round V
VS some nice Polish guy playing 4color LS
I knew what he was playing cause I'd watched his previous game (LS mirror) VS a friend of mine. Based on the experience I made against UWbLS (boasting 5 basics) I was really comfortable facing a version with 0-2 basics. G1: I win the die roll. Thoughtseize reveals his 5-lander - did he know what he was up against, too? To make a long story short: zillion Wastelands, Stifles and Sinkholes ruin his day. Fun fact: Even though he drew some more land, he never had more than 2 in play.
IN: 2 Bob, 2 Grip - OUT: Creature hate G2: See G1.
Seriously, this deck is soo evil I was afraid I'd grow devil horns and would've had to be excorcized after the event!:rolleyes:
Round VI
VS BW aggro featuring Wastelands, Vindicates, Grunts, Bobs and Vials G1: I annihilate his land, thoughtseize and daze the rest and win with Lhurgoyfs.
IN: 3 Edicts, 1 EE - OUT: 2 Snuffout, 1 Ponder, 1? G2: The gamestate looks favorable after turn 12 or so and then I make my first stupid mistake of the day. Ponder reveals me Snuff Out, Demise, Land (I'm holding crap and Edict). I pass, he drops S. Avenger which I addict eot, only to lose to the infinite cards of the Confidant he later drops - bleh! G3: see G1. Tag team Tombstalkers do what they're supposed to do .
Round VII
VS some nervous Polish guy playing R/G Beatz
At that point we're the only players at 6-0-0. I was pretty sure this was the most unfavorable MU of the day and consulted my homies on whether I should offer a draw to better my chances on a #2 finish (whimpy, I know). Every single mate I talk to advises me to offer the ID so I quitetly wave goodbye to the title and those precious 30 duals, sniff.
After we're seated I offer the nervous Polish guy the draw I'm still seeking, but he declines. I then proceed with all the semi-logical and pseudo-mathematical argumentation I managed...and he still declines. So I go f*** that we're battling it out!
That was probably when the evil spirit that dwells in TA came to like me again. Here is how it went down: G1: He wins the die roll and starts with Taiga->Rift Bolt. I had kept a mana denial hand boasting Daze and Wastes cause I figured that raping his mana base (pretty much destroying all) was the only out I had other than the dropping the unlikely turn 2 Nought. Anyway, I waste his Taiga, only to watch him dropping another plus Figure of Destiny. I waste his 2nd Taiga, he frowns. Next, he drops a fetchland, attacks for 1 and passes without fetching. At the end of my turn Stifle shines again, he double frowns and gets really nervous. In his turn he probably topdecks a B. Ring and attacks for 2 only to have me watch Sinkhole his last land and he's OUT! **** yeah! That felt good.
After G1 he pseudo-relaxedly announces that he might consider a draw now. (*LAWLZ*) I'm thinking of the playset of BEBs and politely decline. G2: Believe it or not: My starting 7 reveal me the Nougt combo and I start smiling, being aware there'd be nothing to stop me now.
I know, I know that was mega-lucky, really. But so funny, infinitely funny nonetheless.
Round VIII
VS Alex (A.)Trappe ("Atrappe" meaning "dummy" in German, no kidding). Fun fact #2 his mother's name is Angelica.
A.trappe plays C. Breakfast. He figures he's the absolute underdog in this MU and offers to ID, which I gladly accept. 7-0-1 ftw? Hells yeah!
---
Some thoughts on the debatable choices:
Ghastly Demise: Testing showed that lifeloss via Snuff Out, TS, fetchies and FOWs can be an issue against aggro decks. Replacing a Snuff Out was a mini step towards a more balanced setup. Smother is very likely to replace Demise, however.
Dreadnought:
This is easily the most questionable choice I made. Nought, practically replacing land #20 has a whole lot offer though. Here's what me and a teammate (yes, Nightmare: >M. Ringwald<, again!) determined:
- silverbullet that can be game breaking
- gives mid/lategame Stifles a reason to exist
- entering G1 he makes opponents board in hate à la Grip (TA has no other targets though)
- I board the single copy out and smile an evil smile
- entering G2 I can be sure most of my oppent's non-creature hate went to the board, increasing the chances to win via Nought
- worst case scenarios: gives Goyfs +2+2, is counterbait, gets brainstormed away, destroys Bridges, etc..
- obviously this tech works only so long as it's secret so don't expect me to run that **** in the near future. I'd still be looking for a creature in this slot, though.
Mana base:
The basics saved my ass against Stax and BW aggro. There are several more archetypes against which they shine, though. Also having a more resilient mana base allows us to go down to a total of 19. The only change I'd currently consider is dropping a Strand in favor of the 2nd Mire.
The SB: Dark Confidant:
- against "xyz-control.dec" he's simply the nutz and ensures we never run out of gas.
- as you've seen I left all the Stalkers in when boarding him in. This turned out to be just right, for Ponder and BS never let you down, ever.
- I was happy with Bob the entire day even though he "only" won me a single game. Against LS & CO he's simply my #1 threat.
Engineered Explosives:
- pretty much K. Grips #3&4
- with the advantage to break Chalice@1 not only faster but under Moon effects as well. Allowing BEBs to rock again.
- it's an invaluable sweeper hitting one of our arch enemies: Vial, Turn2, too.
- moreover it eats Zombie tokens justifying my going down to merely 2 Crypts (and thus making room for Bobs).
---
Props:
- MagicCardMarket.eu for sponsoring 'deluxe'
- Team MKM teammates for psychologic support
- Jens for lending me Sinkholes (this card is more evil than anything)
- Mucki for lending me his Goyfs
- M. Ringwald formaking me play that singleton Dreadnought
- Jan Sudmann (NQN on TS) for tactical support
- and most of all Deep6er and nitewolf9 for developing yet another MVP.dec - I owe you.
That's all folks.
Peace,
Klaus, aka. Jaschar, Team-MKM
@klaus, nice report, i would most likely play putrefy instead of ghastly demise.
it hits more things and is never almost never a dead card, does not get tripped by counterbalance as much either.
@klaus, nice report, i would most likely play putrefy instead of ghastly demise.
it hits more things and is never almost never a dead card, does not get tripped by counterbalance as much either.
..Thx.
Demise got replaced by Smother. Putrefy is a neat spell but it is too costy, imo.
OK. But this deck does not use any of them. Every last card (I suppose Snuff out is not quite mainstream) can be found in plenty of other decks. Sorry, I don't want to harp too much on this. I wish Isamaru would get over his issues and rejoin this forum. His ideas were original and reasonably competitive.
When I clicked this on the Source, I thought I had accidentally clickedthe"Legacy Staples" stickied thread, even its sideboard. I just don't think gaodstuff.dec ever works in practice.
At least one or two other people brought this up, yet they immediately struck it down over at the Source, saying "Why should originality matter? We're playing this game to win." ...It's too bad life isn't that simple, isn't it.
What happens when your opponent plays black creatures?
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
Extirpates were ridiculous after a nice thoughtseize or wasteland action.
At one point I had both Goyf & Mystic enforcer extirpated, leaving my opponent only w/ meddling mages.
This deck is a BEAST, and has nice matchups against traditional thresh and actually a stronger matchup against combo because of duress/thoughtseize.
The only real problem with this deck is it seems to be UGb thresh with sinkholes, I mean the deck ran everything else. (Well, not snuff outs)
Pretty much proves thresh is the king of legacy, all 50 bajillion varients.
Though playtesting UGb thresh (main deck I play) I don't often run into conflict with tombstalker and goyf. The opponent has a graveyard to after all and really its not that hard to dumb 8-9 cards in just your own graveyard within the first few turns.
The only real problem with this deck is it seems to be UGb thresh with sinkholes, I mean the deck ran everything else. (Well, not snuff outs)
Pretty much proves thresh is the king of legacy, all 50 bajillion varients.
Though playtesting UGb thresh (main deck I play) I don't often run into conflict with tombstalker and goyf. The opponent has a graveyard to after all and really its not that hard to dumb 8-9 cards in just your own graveyard within the first few turns.
there are differences... the deck plays drastically different from thresh... this deck is basically a tempo / land denial deck. Where as Thresh is usually viewed as a more aggro-control deck. Additionally there are serious other differences. The deck also derives both from Eva Green and Thresh not solely from Thresh. So the differences are there.
Additionally the conflict with Stalker and Goyf is almost non-existent (I know this now that I have tested the deck) due to the fact that you almost always only are casting one or the other, not both at the same time. Nor do you usually need to cast both at the same time.
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Additionally the conflict with Stalker and Goyf is almost non-existent (I know this now that I have tested the deck) due to the fact that you almost always only are casting one or the other, not both at the same time. Nor do you usually need to cast both at the same time.
Well no of course no but I'm also saying its not like your banking everything on the stalker to win because if something happens to it you can pretty easily drop a powered up goyf (or even another stalker.)
I know this deck plays differantly than mainstream thresh but it seems very similiar still in actual decklist. It just sacrifices counter disruption for the tempo disruption your mentioning.
Sorry but I just have to ask. What kind of a problem is that?
Should we go back and create differant threads for other mainstream thresh deck varients?
Its just that this isn't really a "new" deck so much as innovation on the thresh archtype so even if its proven competative I think it should either be grouped with the other thresh varients or the other thresh varients get their own threads.
I don't know, I just didn't like how this was being sold as an "innovative" new deck when its the tried and true method with a couple quirks.
Well no of course no but I'm also saying its not like your banking everything on the stalker to win because if something happens to it you can pretty easily drop a powered up goyf (or even another stalker.)
I know this deck plays differantly than mainstream thresh but it seems very similiar still in actual decklist. It just sacrifices counter disruption for the tempo disruption your mentioning.
please feel free to explain how it's deck list is "very similar" to mainstream thresh? The only similarities I see in the deck lists are following:
4 Goyfs
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
beyond that, the decks play very very differently and are exceedingly different in how they are built.
Also if this is the best you can come up with for the worst problem Team America faces... you need to do serious deck testing with a Team America deck against a huge swath of the Legacy Meta....
Should we go back and create differant threads for other mainstream thresh deck varients?
Its just that this isn't really a "new" deck so much as innovation on the thresh archtype so even if its proven competative I think it should either be grouped with the other thresh varients or the other thresh varients get their own threads.
I don't know, I just didn't like how this was being sold as an "innovative" new deck when its the tried and true method with a couple quirks.
This deck is more of an innovation on the Suicide deck than it is an Innovation on Threshold... honestly.... Though I do agree with you on one premise, the deck is not as good as it is selling itself to be.
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the deck list is as follows:
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
Card Advantage:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
Counterspells:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
Disruption:
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
3 Diabolic Edict
The deck was initially designed as kind of a joke. At first it was known as "Europe" as it was designed by Dave Gearheart as a means to counteract the cards that are played primarily in Europe. However shortly there after deck designer Daniel Signorini helped Dave Gearheart to modify the deck for an American Audience. Initially it featured Dreadnaughts, however they were discovered to be too consuming of the resources of the deck, which would be prefered to be used on the opponents cards.
Eventually others were brought into the job of modifying the deck for the American audience, most notably Eric G., and the Team NoVa Legacy players.
The idea of the deck is to use the heavy beaters to establish as much threat power to win the game, while at the same time using the counterspell and disruption suite to prevent the opponent from being able to do much of anything. The deck is essentially a cross bread of the best parts of the UGb Threshold and Eva Green decks.
If I were to design a sideboard for the deck it would look something like the following:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Swamp
1 Island
The reason is because the deck requires mostly non-basic land based, however it is incredibly screwed if it comes up against a Dragon Stompy match up, so having basic lands in the sideboard would help mitigate that issue.
P.S. the deck listed went top-4 in the Legacy Anniversery Tournament at MTG the Source!
Couldn't have said it better myself, thanks Eldariel
Still, we all know that good cards go in good decks. But I am constantly amazed at how narrow the selection seems to be with these guys. I'm considering gathering all the card names from the decent decks I see at TheSource in a hat. Then I will pull enough out of the hat to make a deck. Then I will brand it.
I like pizza. But there are only so many ways you can combine dough, sauce, and cheese before it all starts to taste the same.
Yeah, but this is legacy, we have so many different toppings, as to make the dough, sauce, and cheese kinda not as important in the mix
This deck runs enough cards to put things into the graveyard that it shouldn't be all that problematic. Plus you should only need one or the other of the threats in any given game, not both. But I do see where you are coming from.
Hence the dual lands
yeah, well you have to remember that I didn't really design this deck, I am simply presenting it for the Legacy players of the MTGSal community. The deck itself was designed by people who post over at the Source forums, who participated in the Sources anniversary Tournament.
I guess the best way to put it is how long do you stall before Tombstalker or Tarmogoyf comes out?
I would have to do some serious play testing to figure that out....
i havent had many problems with goyf/stalker dis-synergy yet, but it certainly exists i was overrun by fairies before.. and had an exalted angel slip threw my counters and was throughly beat down as i frantically searched for a stalker. surprisingly wasteland has been a dead draw 2 out of 3 times.. which defies probability.. but just figured id mention it as a side note.
Thank you for the testing
Food Chain Goblins
B/W Zombies
Beast Stompy
None of which are in any way mainstream, but they run the gambit of Aggro-Combo, Aggro, and Aggro-Control. Zombies and Goblins just have more/better creatures, and Trinisphere and chalice just ruin this deck.
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
As does Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon
Cheers fellas,
yesterday I managed to take home the trophy for the Legacy event of the Pro Tour Berlin and picked up the 1st prize: 30 rev. Duals (!)
This is my "obligatory" report.
Nov. 1st: Attracted by the undeniably sexy prize support 113 players from all over Europe gather to fight for glory and, well, 40 Duals and stuff.
As expected, the majority of the field is made up by my homies from the Berlin area and players from Northern Germany.
UWr Dreadstill epically failing me at the Legacy Old Box Trial on the previous day made me want to play something really straight forward, yet versatile and just as powerful if possible. Also, making those 8 rounds while not suffering a burnout was part of the plan. As my teammates arranged 4 Goyfs and 4 Sinkholes my choice was fairly easy. A slightly modified Team America should turn out to be the optimal meta call.
Here's my list:
Team MKM* - NOV 2008
*TA 1.1
MD:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Snuff Out
1 Ghastly Demise (to be discussed)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought (more on this choice @the bottom of the page..)
(41)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp
(19)
SB:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives (to be discussed)
2 Tormod's Crypt (s.a.)
2 Dark Confidant (s.a.)
Round I
VS a Burn.dec playing Viking.
G1: After his Mountain->Lava Spike it's clear what I'm up against. I'm aware this MU can be troublesome if I don't manage to land an early fattie and beat for 5 per turn. With Thoughtseize, Snuff Out and Demise being dead cards, G1 might have turned out bad, so I dropped a turn 3 Nought ftw.
IN: 4 BEBS - OUT: creature hate
G2: A turn 2+3 Goyfs finish him in short order.
Round II
VS the Mighty Quinn (sans Painter combo)
As I later gather my opponent came in 5th the previous day. Being rooted in Extended he starts to chatter about the allegedly low playskill level of the average Legacy player. Good thing I could teach him a lesson. Hah!
G1: After mulling to 6 I keep a mana denial hand fit to beat any deck featuring lots of non basics..I scoop to Scepter+Chant (no MD outs - meh)
IN: 2 Bobs, 2 Grips, 2 EEs - OUT: Creature hate, 1 Stifle, 1 Nought
G2: I keep my 7 consisting of Fetch, Sea, Waste, Confidant, Daze, Force and Sinkhole which leads to him struggling for mana and folding to the goodies Bob drew. I think he didn't resolve a single spell after Bob hit.
G3: See G2. I destroy his lands like it was my job, counter anything relevant and kill him with Stalker.
At this point I still think that the deck had luck-sacked its way to that evil load of disruption...:wink:
Round III
VS Max playing UWb Cunning LS (pretty much agreed upon list)
I know Max from previous tourneys. He's a decent opponent and didn't commit any obvious blunders, afaik. I hadn't tested this MU before and wasn't quite aware that it's in my favor.
G1: OK. This was lucky..ich draw no less than 3 Sinkholes during the earlygame = he dies a painfull death
IN: 2 Grips, 2 Bobs - OUT: creature hate
G2: It was Max's turn to goddraw now. He kills 3 early Goyfs and somehow resolves 2 Humilities and 1 Crucible (+A. Ruins). I scoop.
G3: See G1. I thoughtseize him twice, destroy most of his land and 2 Stalkers stalk him to death. Max is pissed. I don't care.:cool:
Round IV
VS Marvin playing Geddon Stax
This is the first game that proved the basics' awesomeness.
G1: I waste his Tomb, daze a 3sphere, seize an O. Ring and have a Stalker enter the field. Marvin establishes a Crucible-Waste lock in the meantime. But the basics I fetched before shrug at his lock and the lonely Ghostly Prison, so Tombstalker (this guy needs a nick) knocks him out.
IN: 2 Bobs, 2 Grips, 2 EEs OUT: Creature hate, 1 Stifle, 1 Nought
G2: Marvin starts with Plains->Go (whew, so far so good!) I go land go, too and watch him drop a mysterious morph. Luckily I hold an EE exploding the Angel byebye. I continue to thoughtseize anything relevant, so Stalker can nail down my 4-0-0.
Round V
VS some nice Polish guy playing 4color LS
I knew what he was playing cause I'd watched his previous game (LS mirror) VS a friend of mine. Based on the experience I made against UWbLS (boasting 5 basics) I was really comfortable facing a version with 0-2 basics.
G1: I win the die roll. Thoughtseize reveals his 5-lander - did he know what he was up against, too? To make a long story short: zillion Wastelands, Stifles and Sinkholes ruin his day. Fun fact: Even though he drew some more land, he never had more than 2 in play.
IN: 2 Bob, 2 Grip - OUT: Creature hate
G2: See G1.
Seriously, this deck is soo evil I was afraid I'd grow devil horns and would've had to be excorcized after the event!:rolleyes:
Round VI
VS BW aggro featuring Wastelands, Vindicates, Grunts, Bobs and Vials
G1: I annihilate his land, thoughtseize and daze the rest and win with Lhurgoyfs.
IN: 3 Edicts, 1 EE - OUT: 2 Snuffout, 1 Ponder, 1?
G2: The gamestate looks favorable after turn 12 or so and then I make my first stupid mistake of the day. Ponder reveals me Snuff Out, Demise, Land (I'm holding crap and Edict). I pass, he drops S. Avenger which I addict eot, only to lose to the infinite cards of the Confidant he later drops - bleh!
G3: see G1. Tag team Tombstalkers do what they're supposed to do .
Round VII
VS some nervous Polish guy playing R/G Beatz
At that point we're the only players at 6-0-0. I was pretty sure this was the most unfavorable MU of the day and consulted my homies on whether I should offer a draw to better my chances on a #2 finish (whimpy, I know). Every single mate I talk to advises me to offer the ID so I quitetly wave goodbye to the title and those precious 30 duals, sniff.
After we're seated I offer the nervous Polish guy the draw I'm still seeking, but he declines. I then proceed with all the semi-logical and pseudo-mathematical argumentation I managed...and he still declines. So I go f*** that we're battling it out!
That was probably when the evil spirit that dwells in TA came to like me again. Here is how it went down:
G1: He wins the die roll and starts with Taiga->Rift Bolt. I had kept a mana denial hand boasting Daze and Wastes cause I figured that raping his mana base (pretty much destroying all) was the only out I had other than the dropping the unlikely turn 2 Nought. Anyway, I waste his Taiga, only to watch him dropping another plus Figure of Destiny. I waste his 2nd Taiga, he frowns. Next, he drops a fetchland, attacks for 1 and passes without fetching. At the end of my turn Stifle shines again, he double frowns and gets really nervous. In his turn he probably topdecks a B. Ring and attacks for 2 only to have me watch Sinkhole his last land and he's OUT! **** yeah! That felt good.
After G1 he pseudo-relaxedly announces that he might consider a draw now. (*LAWLZ*) I'm thinking of the playset of BEBs and politely decline.
G2: Believe it or not: My starting 7 reveal me the Nougt combo and I start smiling, being aware there'd be nothing to stop me now.
I know, I know that was mega-lucky, really. But so funny, infinitely funny nonetheless.
Round VIII
VS Alex (A.)Trappe ("Atrappe" meaning "dummy" in German, no kidding). Fun fact #2 his mother's name is Angelica.
A.trappe plays C. Breakfast. He figures he's the absolute underdog in this MU and offers to ID, which I gladly accept. 7-0-1 ftw? Hells yeah!
---
Some thoughts on the debatable choices:
Ghastly Demise: Testing showed that lifeloss via Snuff Out, TS, fetchies and FOWs can be an issue against aggro decks. Replacing a Snuff Out was a mini step towards a more balanced setup. Smother is very likely to replace Demise, however.
Dreadnought:
This is easily the most questionable choice I made. Nought, practically replacing land #20 has a whole lot offer though. Here's what me and a teammate (yes, Nightmare: >M. Ringwald<, again!) determined:
- silverbullet that can be game breaking
- gives mid/lategame Stifles a reason to exist
- entering G1 he makes opponents board in hate à la Grip (TA has no other targets though)
- I board the single copy out and smile an evil smile
- entering G2 I can be sure most of my oppent's non-creature hate went to the board, increasing the chances to win via Nought
- worst case scenarios: gives Goyfs +2+2, is counterbait, gets brainstormed away, destroys Bridges, etc..
- obviously this tech works only so long as it's secret so don't expect me to run that **** in the near future. I'd still be looking for a creature in this slot, though.
Mana base:
The basics saved my ass against Stax and BW aggro. There are several more archetypes against which they shine, though. Also having a more resilient mana base allows us to go down to a total of 19. The only change I'd currently consider is dropping a Strand in favor of the 2nd Mire.
The SB:
Dark Confidant:
- against "xyz-control.dec" he's simply the nutz and ensures we never run out of gas.
- as you've seen I left all the Stalkers in when boarding him in. This turned out to be just right, for Ponder and BS never let you down, ever.
- I was happy with Bob the entire day even though he "only" won me a single game. Against LS & CO he's simply my #1 threat.
Engineered Explosives:
- pretty much K. Grips #3&4
- with the advantage to break Chalice@1 not only faster but under Moon effects as well. Allowing BEBs to rock again.
- it's an invaluable sweeper hitting one of our arch enemies: Vial, Turn2, too.
- moreover it eats Zombie tokens justifying my going down to merely 2 Crypts (and thus making room for Bobs).
---
Props:
- MagicCardMarket.eu for sponsoring 'deluxe'
- Team MKM teammates for psychologic support
- Jens for lending me Sinkholes (this card is more evil than anything)
- Mucki for lending me his Goyfs
- M. Ringwald formaking me play that singleton Dreadnought
- Jan Sudmann (NQN on TS) for tactical support
- and most of all Deep6er and nitewolf9 for developing yet another MVP.dec - I owe you.
That's all folks.
Peace,
Klaus, aka. Jaschar, Team-MKM
it hits more things and is never almost never a dead card, does not get tripped by counterbalance as much either.
..Thx.
Demise got replaced by Smother. Putrefy is a neat spell but it is too costy, imo.
When I clicked this on the Source, I thought I had accidentally clicked the "Legacy Staples" stickied thread, even its sideboard. I just don't think gaodstuff.dec ever works in practice.
At least one or two other people brought this up, yet they immediately struck it down over at the Source, saying "Why should originality matter? We're playing this game to win." ...It's too bad life isn't that simple, isn't it.
What happens when your opponent plays black creatures?
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
Removal:
2 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict
The rest:
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sinkhole
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered explosives
3 Pernicious deed
2 Pithing needle
Extirpates were ridiculous after a nice thoughtseize or wasteland action.
At one point I had both Goyf & Mystic enforcer extirpated, leaving my opponent only w/ meddling mages.
This deck is a BEAST, and has nice matchups against traditional thresh and actually a stronger matchup against combo because of duress/thoughtseize.
Pretty much proves thresh is the king of legacy, all 50 bajillion varients.
Though playtesting UGb thresh (main deck I play) I don't often run into conflict with tombstalker and goyf. The opponent has a graveyard to after all and really its not that hard to dumb 8-9 cards in just your own graveyard within the first few turns.
there are differences... the deck plays drastically different from thresh... this deck is basically a tempo / land denial deck. Where as Thresh is usually viewed as a more aggro-control deck. Additionally there are serious other differences. The deck also derives both from Eva Green and Thresh not solely from Thresh. So the differences are there.
Additionally the conflict with Stalker and Goyf is almost non-existent (I know this now that I have tested the deck) due to the fact that you almost always only are casting one or the other, not both at the same time. Nor do you usually need to cast both at the same time.
Well no of course no but I'm also saying its not like your banking everything on the stalker to win because if something happens to it you can pretty easily drop a powered up goyf (or even another stalker.)
I know this deck plays differantly than mainstream thresh but it seems very similiar still in actual decklist. It just sacrifices counter disruption for the tempo disruption your mentioning.
Should we go back and create differant threads for other mainstream thresh deck varients?
Its just that this isn't really a "new" deck so much as innovation on the thresh archtype so even if its proven competative I think it should either be grouped with the other thresh varients or the other thresh varients get their own threads.
I don't know, I just didn't like how this was being sold as an "innovative" new deck when its the tried and true method with a couple quirks.
please feel free to explain how it's deck list is "very similar" to mainstream thresh? The only similarities I see in the deck lists are following:
4 Goyfs
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
beyond that, the decks play very very differently and are exceedingly different in how they are built.
Also if this is the best you can come up with for the worst problem Team America faces... you need to do serious deck testing with a Team America deck against a huge swath of the Legacy Meta....
This deck is more of an innovation on the Suicide deck than it is an Innovation on Threshold... honestly.... Though I do agree with you on one premise, the deck is not as good as it is selling itself to be.