I was just wondering since that 1 turn delay of not being able to drop another creature may slow my clock a bit. But yes, I usually open up with duress just to be on a safe side.
How about the decklist though? Does white splash give the deck a bit of versatility? It was just pretty much for the inclusion of Swords to Plowshares, and the creature called Kataki, War's Wage. Though when running BW though, Gerrard's Verdict and Vindicate seems pretty tempting.
For fast black decks like these though, I was wondering wouln't Volrath's Stronghold add a little help to the deck? Granted there is a bit much of :symb::symb: requirements in so many of the cards. But perhaps a 1-off of the card may help the deck not run out of steam?
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Main: LEDless Dredge
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
The only time a Duress will get Forced is if the player with the force is going to wreck you in the next one to two turns, and even then they won't always do it. Turning your Duress into a Hymn is not something that control/aggro control decks want to be doing, if they do use Force on your Duress it will probably be because they can win next turn or because they are bad. Top-Counterbalance isn't so hard to assemble that the thresh player is going to make your Duress twice as strong and take 1 damage to protect it, especially if you still have BB floating since you might have Hymn.
What do you guys do against counter-top-goyf, or chalice for 2? Seems like it's scoop phase, because EVERYTHING is CMC 2? That's my one hangup with making this deck, but if you go down to the 1slot for creatures you lose quality, and if you go up to 3 you start taking too much confidant damage.
Oh, and I'm thinking green splash for s/b krosan grip, m/b goyf. Are there other cards I should be looking at to better utilize the green in my deck? Just thinking some bayous and 4 fetches; maybe 2 overgrown tomb. Also considering krosan grip main, as there's not really a deck out there that doesn't run artifacts/enchantments, except maybe Goblins (which does, but by the time you can kill vial its too late), and there's no goblins so far in my meta.
Til I’m toppling from the top I’m not going to stop
I’m standing on my Monopoly board
That means I’m on top of my game
And it don't stop 'til my hip don’t hop anymore
@slayer- I was actually referring to mraven's decklist
@Satriani-Not really, once your opponent hits the amount of lands they need all their extra lands will prolly be going to sap prowler's strength.
Multiple shades, while not fantastic, are still good.
Your opponent will have problems blocking often times.
The mana investment generally isnt a problem.
To help avoid the prowler problem you can have them discard thier card eot if you are running funeral charm. But you'd probably be just as good using it to pump your guys.
Has anyone played Cursed Scroll much in Mono black?
Also, I think we should discuss some ways to get around counterbalance- Preferable w/o a splash if we can.
I have run Cursed Scroll in older mono-black builds. It's helpful mid-game mostly. If you were going to run it, you'd have every reason to also run Unmask. Hell, I'd even try Contagion maindecked with that. That would rape enemy Tarmogoyfs. I used to run Juggernaut in my deck (told you it was pretty old, haven't had the money for new ****), which of course isn't gonna get raped by a counterbalance. I think you're better off having killer discard and hoping to get it beforehand than running not-so-great 1, 3, and 4 cc creatures. Obviously, splashing opens up options, but if you're staying in black, I can only think of discard as your out.
Anyone have some thoughts on altering a mono (or splashed) black deck that uses and abuses Sphere of Resistance? I suppose that would mean more of an aggro/control approach.
Sometimes it's too suicidal with Confidant-Sarcomancy-Carnophage-Thoghtseize
The mana curve is really low, vulnerable pre-board to chalice of the void, but it's so aggressive that if you start you'll deal with ia t1 chalice at 1/2 just fine:
24x 1cc (4x being Dark Ritual)
16x 2cc
Possible changes in clude switching Wretches for Oona's Prowlers..both have advantages:
Wretch kills goyf.
Prowler is evasive; not much flying in legacy
Prowler fuels my goyf.
Prowler has 3 power over 2.
Not sure which to go with; I'm going to have another wretch in the sideboard anyway; considering just boarding them altogether and putting the prowlers in for a more aggressive game. I just feel like I'll be boarding in wretches constantly. I'd like to fit a few more beaters in overall, but I'm having difficulty cutting cards; the 2 for 1 that profane commands is amazing, especially because I often find myself with no cards in hand and a clear board vs a quirion dryad and an empty hand on my opponents' side; killing dryad and getting back goyf or confidant is basically gg, and they're such targets that it happens all the time. I'm considering dropping a hymn or two, but hymns are just devastatingly powerful early game. I also don't think I can get away with dropping any dark rit or chrome mox, because 7 in the deck gives an 86% chance of pulling at least one in opening hand, with the odds significantly higher (of course) on the draw. I have the edicts in for 2 smothers because reanimator is relatively common in the meta here.
I haven't play tested this build yet, my previous one had 4 oona's prowlers and no hippies and only 2 wretches.
Til I’m toppling from the top I’m not going to stop
I’m standing on my Monopoly board
That means I’m on top of my game
And it don't stop 'til my hip don’t hop anymore
@Slayer001: I think that both Hyppie and Jitte are slow for this deck. Rancor comes down for one mana less, already "equipped", giving trample and +2/0. It's a lot more aggressive, and that's what I want. It's G vs. 4.
Jitte is a lot better overall, no doubt, but here I want aggressiveness.
With bigger creatures, I don't need more removal than 4x Thoughtseize. The objective is discard and aim for the head. Pure and Simple.
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-Mastery is achieved when "telling time" becomes "telling time what to do".
I am just curious if anyone has tested any of the new cards from morningtide for this archetype? In standard alone my friend has a pretty easy time at getting 4th turn kills with his rogues (maybe some of them might work). Or possibly bitterblossom?
@Slayer001: I think that both Hyppie and Jitte are slow for this deck. Rancor comes down for one mana less, already "equipped", giving trample and +2/0. It's a lot more aggressive, and that's what I want. It's G vs. 4.
Jitte is a lot better overall, no doubt, but here I want aggressiveness.
With bigger creatures, I don't need more removal than 4x Thoughtseize. The objective is discard and aim for the head. Pure and Simple.
The thing with Umezawa's Jitte is that you get card advantage. You won't get the same effect with Rancor.
I've said it before, and i'll say it again. Unearth was always my MVP while playing this deck. There should never be anything in the deck it can't bring back, and it's never a dead card. Only thing reanimate has on it is the abiltity to hit the opponents creatures.
If you're looking to fit in Goyf without the lands to play it I'd go unearth + Hidden Horror, or it's portal equivalent.
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Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
That was back when Blood Pet, Dauthi Slayer, and Hatred ruled the day. Times have changed, fortunately, as the payment of life is really risky in today's metagame. Lots of reach, spot removal, and counters will put a serious damper on your plan, and it requires too much (Swamp, Rituals, Blood Pet, Slayer, Hatred) to be in your hand to combo early.
EDIT: This is my current build. It should be noted that Suicide Black has gone from aggro/Zombie vs. Confidant builds to Confidant vs. non-Confidant builds (often running Tombstalker somewhere in there). I like the direction that the deck has been taken.
The meta spot has been virtually everything. Cursed Scroll, Stromgald Crusader, Black Knight, Diabolic Edict, etc. It's pretty open for adjustments. Also, you can run something other than Negator if you see tons of Burn; it's just personal preference.
My list is similar to the one above, but is 12 discard really necessary? Seems a bit overkill... If i was to run 12 i'd run funeral charm to avoid dead draws mid/late game. How many other people are running 12 discard and having it work?
The theory would be that with 12 discard effects, mid-game is actually very much late-game. Drop critters while eating the hand alive means virtually no blockers, getting you the win much quicker. At least that's how it seems to work against me (a buddy plays it, and it's really no fun).
Sui Black, especially my version, THRIVES in pure control metas; that's actually what Sui was designed to do (beat Keeper in Vintage back in the early days).
Control, in general, do not handle discard well, nor do they handle early resolved threats well either. Your deck has both. 1st Turn Ritualed Negator, or 1st turn Thoughtseize (followed by a plethora of 2cc spells) is something control decks typically do not like to see. If your meta is pure control and combo, Sui Black should be your number one choice. If your meta is mostly aggro, aggro-control, then you should definitely not play Sui (or ifyou must, then HEAVILY modify it).
Regarding the 12 discard spells (16 if you count Hippy), cartman is correct. You want to aggressively attack your opponent's hand, decreasing the chances of him holding an answer to your beefy threats. This deck should be trying to cast 1-3 turn disruption, lay a threat, then disrupt some more into the victory.
They're my pick for a 3 drop. The Urchins that is, the gouger's not bad, but the Urchins are just perfect for this deck. And with Unearth in the main I will be having plenty of fun with em.
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Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
is Dredge a force in legacy? also, ichorid and other stuff likes graveyards
also, what does everybody think about Dusk Urchins?
In legacy dredge = Ichorid, and it isn't that prevalent. Most other graveyard based decks are going to be hurt by your discard because of the variety of targets (unless its something like 43 Lands with basically no targets).
How about the decklist though? Does white splash give the deck a bit of versatility? It was just pretty much for the inclusion of Swords to Plowshares, and the creature called Kataki, War's Wage. Though when running BW though, Gerrard's Verdict and Vindicate seems pretty tempting.
For fast black decks like these though, I was wondering wouln't Volrath's Stronghold add a little help to the deck? Granted there is a bit much of :symb::symb: requirements in so many of the cards. But perhaps a 1-off of the card may help the deck not run out of steam?
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
Oh, and I'm thinking green splash for s/b krosan grip, m/b goyf. Are there other cards I should be looking at to better utilize the green in my deck? Just thinking some bayous and 4 fetches; maybe 2 overgrown tomb. Also considering krosan grip main, as there's not really a deck out there that doesn't run artifacts/enchantments, except maybe Goblins (which does, but by the time you can kill vial its too late), and there's no goblins so far in my meta.
I’m standing on my Monopoly board
That means I’m on top of my game
And it don't stop 'til my hip don’t hop anymore
I have run Cursed Scroll in older mono-black builds. It's helpful mid-game mostly. If you were going to run it, you'd have every reason to also run Unmask. Hell, I'd even try Contagion maindecked with that. That would rape enemy Tarmogoyfs. I used to run Juggernaut in my deck (told you it was pretty old, haven't had the money for new ****), which of course isn't gonna get raped by a counterbalance. I think you're better off having killer discard and hoping to get it beforehand than running not-so-great 1, 3, and 4 cc creatures. Obviously, splashing opens up options, but if you're staying in black, I can only think of discard as your out.
Anyone have some thoughts on altering a mono (or splashed) black deck that uses and abuses Sphere of Resistance? I suppose that would mean more of an aggro/control approach.
RON PAUL
R[ƎVO˩]UTION
The Philosophy of Liberty
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Bayou
8x Swamp
4x Sarcomancy
4x Carnophage
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
Other Spells:
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rancor
The mana curve is really low, vulnerable pre-board to chalice of the void, but it's so aggressive that if you start you'll deal with ia t1 chalice at 1/2 just fine:
24x 1cc (4x being Dark Ritual)
16x 2cc
3x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Bayou
8x Swamp
Mana Accel: 7
4x Dark Ritual
3x Chrome Mox
3x Profane Command
2x Smother
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Duress
2x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nantuko Shade
3x Hypnotic Specter
3x Withered Wretch
Wretch kills goyf.
Prowler is evasive; not much flying in legacy
Prowler fuels my goyf.
Prowler has 3 power over 2.
Not sure which to go with; I'm going to have another wretch in the sideboard anyway; considering just boarding them altogether and putting the prowlers in for a more aggressive game. I just feel like I'll be boarding in wretches constantly. I'd like to fit a few more beaters in overall, but I'm having difficulty cutting cards; the 2 for 1 that profane commands is amazing, especially because I often find myself with no cards in hand and a clear board vs a quirion dryad and an empty hand on my opponents' side; killing dryad and getting back goyf or confidant is basically gg, and they're such targets that it happens all the time. I'm considering dropping a hymn or two, but hymns are just devastatingly powerful early game. I also don't think I can get away with dropping any dark rit or chrome mox, because 7 in the deck gives an 86% chance of pulling at least one in opening hand, with the odds significantly higher (of course) on the draw. I have the edicts in for 2 smothers because reanimator is relatively common in the meta here.
I haven't play tested this build yet, my previous one had 4 oona's prowlers and no hippies and only 2 wretches.
Any input would be welcome.
I’m standing on my Monopoly board
That means I’m on top of my game
And it don't stop 'til my hip don’t hop anymore
Jitte is a lot better overall, no doubt, but here I want aggressiveness.
With bigger creatures, I don't need more removal than 4x Thoughtseize. The objective is discard and aim for the head. Pure and Simple.
The thing with Umezawa's Jitte is that you get card advantage. You won't get the same effect with Rancor.
[High~Light Studios]
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Sideboard Reanimate, and it doesn't force you do use dual/fetchlands
I remember when Jester's Cap was more expensive than Underground Sea
If you're looking to fit in Goyf without the lands to play it I'd go unearth + Hidden Horror, or it's portal equivalent.
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
EDIT: This is my current build. It should be noted that Suicide Black has gone from aggro/Zombie vs. Confidant builds to Confidant vs. non-Confidant builds (often running Tombstalker somewhere in there). I like the direction that the deck has been taken.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant
4 Smother
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Meta spot
The meta spot has been virtually everything. Cursed Scroll, Stromgald Crusader, Black Knight, Diabolic Edict, etc. It's pretty open for adjustments. Also, you can run something other than Negator if you see tons of Burn; it's just personal preference.
Shared Animosity Gobbo
UW Merfolk Beat Down
RB Gravepact Control
Decks Currently Working on:
Legacy: Merfolk, Death and Taxes
Legacy:
UU/W Merfolk Beats
My Have/Want List:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=107974
Control, in general, do not handle discard well, nor do they handle early resolved threats well either. Your deck has both. 1st Turn Ritualed Negator, or 1st turn Thoughtseize (followed by a plethora of 2cc spells) is something control decks typically do not like to see. If your meta is pure control and combo, Sui Black should be your number one choice. If your meta is mostly aggro, aggro-control, then you should definitely not play Sui (or ifyou must, then HEAVILY modify it).
Regarding the 12 discard spells (16 if you count Hippy), cartman is correct. You want to aggressively attack your opponent's hand, decreasing the chances of him holding an answer to your beefy threats. This deck should be trying to cast 1-3 turn disruption, lay a threat, then disrupt some more into the victory.
N/A
Modern
UrzaTron
Legacy
N/A
Vintage
Dark Times
EDH
Horobi, Death's Wail
Pauper
Affinity :symu::symr::symb::symg:
Special thanks to ChibiSwan for the avatar! (link)
also, what does everybody think about Dusk Urchins?
N/A
Modern
UrzaTron
Legacy
N/A
Vintage
Dark Times
EDH
Horobi, Death's Wail
Pauper
Affinity :symu::symr::symb::symg:
Special thanks to ChibiSwan for the avatar! (link)
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
N/A
Modern
UrzaTron
Legacy
N/A
Vintage
Dark Times
EDH
Horobi, Death's Wail
Pauper
Affinity :symu::symr::symb::symg:
Special thanks to ChibiSwan for the avatar! (link)
In legacy dredge = Ichorid, and it isn't that prevalent. Most other graveyard based decks are going to be hurt by your discard because of the variety of targets (unless its something like 43 Lands with basically no targets).