Ok, the deck revolves around dropping huge Fatties/Combo pieces with Show and Tell and Copper Gnomes. The deck can not only try and cheat them into play, but also play them with mana accellerators and double mana producing lands. The deck can effectively win 1st turn.
Mana Base
Island - Basic land.
Wasteland - Mana Disruption
City of Traitors & Ancient Tomb - Double mana producing lands.
Mishra's Factory - Win Con, also helps ith Wake Thrasher.
Creatures
Wake Thrasher - Can win second turn or just become a big beater.
Copper Gnomes - Cheats everything of worry into play except Wake Thrasher.
Darksteel Colossus - Big, Bad, gets you 11 life or wins you the game.
Sundering Titan - 7/10 that rocks unprepared opponents.
Spells
Mox Diamond - Mana Accelleration.
Thirst for Knowledge - Card Draw.
Basalt Monolith - Combo piece as well as Mana Accelleration.
Show and Tell - Cheats anything into play.
Crucible of Worlds - Reoccurring Wasteland or City of Traitors.
Trinisphere - Disruption against control and combo.
Sideboard
Sphere of Resistance - Anti-Combo card
Duplicant - Anti-Creature can be hard cast.
Propaganda - Anti-Creature
Chalice of the Void - Anti-Cheap decks, mainly for white decks running Swords, as well as Burn.
The idea is to try and make the deck super synargetic, not relient on single cards to win. As such the cards work as follows:
Wake Thrasher -> Basalt Monolith + Mishra's Factory
Basalt Monolith -> Wake Thrasher + Hard Casting Fattiest
Copper Gnomes -> Darksteel Colossus, Sundering Titan, + Basalt Monolith
Show and Tell -> Any threat
Also, I like when my opponents can't do anything, so the following is really exciting ti me.
Turn 1 -> Trinisphere
Turn 2 -> Wake Thrasher
Turn 3 -> Basalt Monolith Win.
I've been trying to put Copper Gnomes into a deck for a while too, but I think more could be done to make it worthwhile.
Smokestack and Basalt Monolith don't seem like they do anything special... Wouldn't you rather put Sundering Titan into play than Darksteel? ...Maybe even Sphinx Sovereign...
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While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
The wake thrasher / basalt monolith combo seems out of place to me. I would suggest taking it out and adding some more creatures for the gnomes or show and tell to use.
Basalt Monolith is an added Bonus to work with Wake Thrasher. Basalt Monolith helps you cast Darksteel Collossus on Turn 3. Not to mention, it allows you to win turn 2. with the Wake Thrasher Combo.
The only thing I felt that was out of place was the Smokestacks. I could cut those and then run 3 Sundering Titan, or cut a Darksteal and run 4 Sundering Titan as they are easy to cast.
I still think that Mishra's Factory should go in as a 4 of, and cut back to 6 Island.
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If mana isnt an issue Mycosynth Lattice + Kill Switch at the end of your turn is a great stopper and its very geared against your opponent. (You decide what order things untap, killswitch first then the rest of your perminants)..
If mana isnt an issue Mycosynth Lattice + Kill Switch at the end of your turn is a great stopper and its very geared against your opponent. (You decide what order things untap, killswitch first then the rest of your perminants)..
Again look at the synergetic comments above. Those combos are very card dependent, not to mention Kill Switch is very bad with Basalt Monolith, and Mycosynth Lattice does nothing on its own.
BTW, I just played against Dreadstill, he had to burn a Force of Will against my 1st Trinisphere in order to drop a turn 2 Dreadnought. I took one turn of beats to use Thirst for Knowledge to dig for a Colossus, and then dropped it with Show and Tell. I took one trample then, I followed that up with a Wake Thrasher. This kept Dreadnought at bay untill I stacked up enough lands and went through enough counters and just started hard casting my Sundering Titans.
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Hey Mike, I like the deck but wouldn't chalice of the void be more relevant in the main? Chalice of the void is one of those cards that can considerably slow down all of those aggro-control decks in the format like Team america and UGr Thrash. Shutting off their brainstorms and ponders can be a winning strategy since it puts both of those decks at an difficult position at finding a threat and/or some utility card like Trygon Predator or force of will in a timely manner.
However, Wasteland supplemented with Trinisphere can give any Aggro-control deck trouble. Wasting their green mana sources as well as making their cantrips cost almost twice as much is something I like to see when playing against UG(x)/UG(x)(x) aggro-control. Not to mention denying the use of Red elemental blast/pyroblast from the Red Thrash player with either chalice or trinisphere in an attempt to counter your show and tell is also good.
Overall, I think your deck has alot of potential to win Mike.
Hey Mike, I like the deck but wouldn't chalice of the void be more relevant in the main? Chalice of the void is one of those cards that can considerably slow down all of those aggro-control decks in the format like Team america and UGr Thrash. Shutting off their brainstorms and ponders can be a winning strategy since it puts both of those decks at an difficult position at finding a threat and/or some utility card like Trygon Predator or force of will in a timely manner.
However, Wasteland supplemented with Trinisphere can give any Aggro-control deck trouble. Wasting their green mana sources as well as making their cantrips cost almost twice as much is something I like to see when playing against UG(x)/UG(x)(x) aggro-control. Not to mention denying the use of Red elemental blast/pyroblast from the Red Thrash player with either chalice or trinisphere in an attempt to counter your show and tell is also good.
Overall, I think your deck has alot of potential to win Mike.
If done on the play, your opponent only gets to watch this game.
I wanted Chalice in the main, and really wanted a Staxs type build, but it kept performing horribly with those components. Well, not horribly, they just seemed out of place in the main.
Cool idea. 11 blue mana sources is probably an issue that can be remedied. But I really think there is no reason not to use Chalice. It is just that good, even if limited testing made it seem bad.
I know this might sound a little wierd but Possessed Portal put into play with a Copper Gnome with a Trinisphere would pretty much seal the game, right? Even more so, if you added Crucible of Worlds.
Cool idea. 11 blue mana sources is probably an issue that can be remedied. But I really think there is no reason not to use Chalice. It is just that good, even if limited testing made it seem bad.
I am open to suggestions about how to add chalice,because Stifle and StP can be frustrating but cutting threats I don't think is the proper choice.
You know, I always hear how people love Chalice of the Void, and I like it, specially in a deck designed to abuse it like Stax or Braids, but even in Dragon Stompy I am really wishing I was running Trinisphere more often than not.
I know this might sound a little wierd but Possessed Portal put into play with a Copper Gnome with a Trinisphere would pretty much seal the game, right? Even more so, if you added Crucible of Worlds.
I am open to suggestions about how to add chalice,because Stifle and StP can be frustrating but cutting threats I don't think is the proper choice.
You know, I always hear how people love Chalice of the Void, and I like it, specially in a deck designed to abuse it like Stax or Braids, but even in Dragon Stompy I am really wishing I was running Trinisphere more often than not.
Sad to say, it seems that dropping 2 Titans to add 2 CoTV makes the most sense. You need the mana accell and card draw. And Crucible allows you to replay Cities and get out of a waste lock. And without a way to tutor it. It seems pointless.
Damn you and your flawless deck building skills CJ. DAMN YOU!!!!!!!!
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SKRules on Dark Rit art
5th is just a guy snapping his fingers. Maybe Nicol Bolas can get mana that way, but I can't.
Sad to say, it seems that dropping 2 Titans to add 2 CoTV makes the most sense. You need the mana accell and card draw. And Crucible allows you to replay Cities and get out of a waste lock. And without a way to tutor it. It seems pointless.
Damn you and your flawless deck building skills CJ. DAMN YOU!!!!!!!!
LOL, why can't we be happy with Chalice of the Void in the Sideboard?
What about:
-1 Trinisphere
-1 Darksteel Colossus
-1 Sundering Titan
+3 Chalice of the Void
I love Sundering Titan because it is so easy to cast in this deck, and hardly effects us. I am very hesitant on removing any Wake Thrashers or Basalt Monolith as that is the quickest means to victory, next to Turn 1 Darksteel Colossus.
I am going to test up a few varients with Chalice.
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I like the deck, as I've always been a fan of cards like Show and Tell and Eureka.
However, I noticed you have no way to deal with non-land permanents in play, which I think is a bit risky when playing Show and Tell, even if Colossus will outweigh any creature your opponent could possibly play.
The worse case scenario is you Showing and Telling and your opponent dropping a Charbelcher, but even your opponent dropping an O-Ring to remove the Colossus you dropped is already bad for you in terms of resources wasted...
You bring up a good point, and while I don't think O-Ring is what I have to worry about, something like Humility is.
However, that got me thinking, and if you and your opponent both put O-Ring into play you could take out his O-ring, and something else if he targeted your O-Ring. Just food for thought.
i really don't think you have to worry about o-ring in legacy....
I am sure this has been thought of before. I would make it green/blue green to accel, blue to protect...
If you splash green then you have to cut away from basic lands, and what mana accelleration are you talking about? This deck already has a lot of it. I mean it can hard cast Darksteel Colossus on turn 3.
Well, the deck needs surely a bit of disruption, but i'm not sure about the kind you need...
By now, I got another kind of lock, Mana Vortex, Crucible of Worlds and a way to generate good mana from artifacts... Like using Power Artifact on Monolith. Also, you Need a flying beater or some other tricky big artifact creature. Try:
I agree that Platinum Angel would be sweet since I've already mentioned the card before on this thread. You can probably get away with putting it in the SB against combo and stuff, as well as a few Pact of Negation to compliment it.
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Yes, platinum angel could be also a sideboard option, but i'd prefer to have flying beaters MD instead of SB.
Also, a silver bullet for this deck is Sharding Sphinx.
By now, I realized that Mana Vortex seems so-so when you compare it to Smokestack... Costs one mana less but needs UU, requires a land as it comes into play but the next upkeep don't have to be charged... can't eliminate nonland permanents and falls off when no lands are in play... Only some testing will tell the difference.
Greetings,
Frozen_Fire
Mana Vortex is basically used with Propaganda effects to deal with the most "prevalent" permanents on the board. Trinisphere also prevents them from playing anything once you get the Vortex/Crucible lock going. It's stronger than Smokestack, but only in the right deck and only under the right circumstances.
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Mana Vortex is basically used with Propaganda effects to deal with the most "prevalent" permanents on the board. Trinisphere also prevents them from playing anything once you get the Vortex/Crucible lock going. It's stronger than Smokestack, but only in the right deck and only under the right circumstances.
I have a deck that totally can abuse vortex, but that is another thread.
I find it funny that we are talking about how the deck needs more large beaters when we are running 4 11/11's and 4 7/10's, not to mention a 1/1 that can go infinate.
BTW, I was going through some old cards and read Relic Bind and was like I have a replacement for Wake Thrasher. I look up the card on the internet only to find they errata'ed it. What you know about infinate life and infinate damage with 2 cards, none of which are creatures! Such a shame about that reprint.:mad:
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I have a deck that totally can abuse vortex, but that is another thread.
I find it funny that we are talking about how the deck needs more large beaters when we are running 4 11/11's and 4 7/10's, not to mention a 1/1 that can go infinate.
BTW, I was going through some old cards and read Relic Bind and was like I have a replacement for Wake Thrasher. I look up the card on the internet only to find they errata'ed it. What you know about infinate life and infinate damage with 2 cards, none of which are creatures! Such a shame about that reprint.:mad:
I would love to see the list that you've mentioned that abuses Mana Vortex. I bought 13 like a couple months ago (bought out all of them in stock at SCG.com for like a $1 a piece) after going public with the Mana Vortex/Crucible of Worlds combo. Not to mention I bought 16 Helm of Obedience for a buck a peice, as well. =P
I actually like adding Tangle wire in here though it seems worth noting especially since it'll help your chances of winning against aggro-control(e.g. UGr thrash and Team America). Tapping all of their threats and mana resources seems like a efficient strategy and they should be tested at the very least.
Besides you have wastelands which can give you a more of a golden opportunity to cast whatever you need to play. Since wastelands denies them the use of their dazes, thoughtseizes, and postboard spells such as Krosan grip and perhaps Trygon Predator if they run it. Also preventing them from even casting a threat can be extremely detrimental to them as well and this deck is very capable of doing just that. On top of that you have trinisphere for their force of will but if you added chalice in the main that forces aggro-control opponents to play out of their essential rhythm which is also detrimental. Chalice of the void is like counterbalance in these builds in my opinion. That said, just like Counterbalance COTV can steal alot of wins.
Also on another note, you can potentially deny the aggro-control player on consistent land drops if you shut off their 1cc blue cantrips via chalice and then you can just detonate whatever lands they have in play with wasteland.
I would love to see the list that you've mentioned that abuses Mana Vortex. I bought 13 like a couple months ago (bought out all of them in stock at SCG.com for like a $1 a piece) after going public with the Mana Vortex/Crucible of Worlds combo. Not to mention I bought 16 Helm of Obedience for a buck a peice, as well. =P
both still go for... a buck a piece!!!!! yeah!!!! i think you may hsve made a profit of ohhh..... .17 per?
also, i third the tangle wire, but in a stax shell
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And all that the Lorax left here in this mess
was a small pile of rocks, with one word...
UNLESS.
Whatever that meant, well, I just couldn't guess.
thanks to The Highlight Studios for the amazing avatar
both still go for... a buck a piece!!!!! yeah!!!! i think you may hsve made a profit of ohhh..... .17 per?
also, i third the tangle wire, but in a stax shell
It doesn't matter how much they're going for, it matters that I have some and you don't. Helm of Obedience is going for like $4 bucks a peices and Mana Vortex is sort of an investment since the card has potential. Mana Vortex will go up in price once people realize how broken it is.
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7 Island
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishra's Factory
Creatures
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Darksteel Colossus
4 Copper Gnomes
4 Sundering Titan
4 Mox Diamond
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Show and Tell
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Duplicant
4 Propaganda
4 Chalice of the Void
Mana Base
Island - Basic land.
Wasteland - Mana Disruption
City of Traitors & Ancient Tomb - Double mana producing lands.
Mishra's Factory - Win Con, also helps ith Wake Thrasher.
Creatures
Wake Thrasher - Can win second turn or just become a big beater.
Copper Gnomes - Cheats everything of worry into play except Wake Thrasher.
Darksteel Colossus - Big, Bad, gets you 11 life or wins you the game.
Sundering Titan - 7/10 that rocks unprepared opponents.
Spells
Mox Diamond - Mana Accelleration.
Thirst for Knowledge - Card Draw.
Basalt Monolith - Combo piece as well as Mana Accelleration.
Show and Tell - Cheats anything into play.
Crucible of Worlds - Reoccurring Wasteland or City of Traitors.
Trinisphere - Disruption against control and combo.
Sideboard
Sphere of Resistance - Anti-Combo card
Duplicant - Anti-Creature can be hard cast.
Propaganda - Anti-Creature
Chalice of the Void - Anti-Cheap decks, mainly for white decks running Swords, as well as Burn.
The idea is to try and make the deck super synargetic, not relient on single cards to win. As such the cards work as follows:
Wake Thrasher -> Basalt Monolith + Mishra's Factory
Basalt Monolith -> Wake Thrasher + Hard Casting Fattiest
Copper Gnomes -> Darksteel Colossus, Sundering Titan, + Basalt Monolith
Show and Tell -> Any threat
Also, I like when my opponents can't do anything, so the following is really exciting ti me.
Turn 1 -> Trinisphere
Turn 2 -> Wake Thrasher
Turn 3 -> Basalt Monolith Win.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
Smokestack and Basalt Monolith don't seem like they do anything special... Wouldn't you rather put Sundering Titan into play than Darksteel? ...Maybe even Sphinx Sovereign...
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
The only thing I felt that was out of place was the Smokestacks. I could cut those and then run 3 Sundering Titan, or cut a Darksteal and run 4 Sundering Titan as they are easy to cast.
I still think that Mishra's Factory should go in as a 4 of, and cut back to 6 Island.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
Monolith screams for a power artifact, and a lotus petal to help it get off if need be. (Phyrexian Marauder)
Aside from that it looks good.
Because Power Artifact is only good with Basalt Monolith, where as everything else in the deck works with multiple cards, not just one.
The idea is to try and make the deck super synargetic, not relient on single cards to win.
Wake Thrasher -> Basalt Monolith + Mishra's Factory
Basalt Monolith -> Wake Thrasher + Hard Casting Fattiest
Copper Gnomes -> Darksteel Colossus, Sundering Titan, + Basalt Monolith
Show and Tell -> Any threat
Again look at the synergetic comments above. Those combos are very card dependent, not to mention Kill Switch is very bad with Basalt Monolith, and Mycosynth Lattice does nothing on its own.
BTW, I just played against Dreadstill, he had to burn a Force of Will against my 1st Trinisphere in order to drop a turn 2 Dreadnought. I took one turn of beats to use Thirst for Knowledge to dig for a Colossus, and then dropped it with Show and Tell. I took one trample then, I followed that up with a Wake Thrasher. This kept Dreadnought at bay untill I stacked up enough lands and went through enough counters and just started hard casting my Sundering Titans.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
However, Wasteland supplemented with Trinisphere can give any Aggro-control deck trouble. Wasting their green mana sources as well as making their cantrips cost almost twice as much is something I like to see when playing against UG(x)/UG(x)(x) aggro-control. Not to mention denying the use of Red elemental blast/pyroblast from the Red Thrash player with either chalice or trinisphere in an attempt to counter your show and tell is also good.
Overall, I think your deck has alot of potential to win Mike.
Thanks Kevin!
The deck has the ability to do the following
Turn 1 -> Trinisphere
Turn 2 -> Wake Thrasher
Turn 3 -> Basalt Monolith Win.
If done on the play, your opponent only gets to watch this game.
I wanted Chalice in the main, and really wanted a Staxs type build, but it kept performing horribly with those components. Well, not horribly, they just seemed out of place in the main.
Yes Aphetto works with both!
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
EDIT: I'd also consider Platinum Angel.
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
I am open to suggestions about how to add chalice,because Stifle and StP can be frustrating but cutting threats I don't think is the proper choice.
You know, I always hear how people love Chalice of the Void, and I like it, specially in a deck designed to abuse it like Stax or Braids, but even in Dragon Stompy I am really wishing I was running Trinisphere more often than not.
I don't think I'd be interested in playing out a Possessed Portal lock, but I was originally thinking about that card while developing the deck.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
Sad to say, it seems that dropping 2 Titans to add 2 CoTV makes the most sense. You need the mana accell and card draw. And Crucible allows you to replay Cities and get out of a waste lock. And without a way to tutor it. It seems pointless.
Damn you and your flawless deck building skills CJ. DAMN YOU!!!!!!!!
LOL, why can't we be happy with Chalice of the Void in the Sideboard?
What about:
-1 Trinisphere
-1 Darksteel Colossus
-1 Sundering Titan
+3 Chalice of the Void
I love Sundering Titan because it is so easy to cast in this deck, and hardly effects us. I am very hesitant on removing any Wake Thrashers or Basalt Monolith as that is the quickest means to victory, next to Turn 1 Darksteel Colossus.
I am going to test up a few varients with Chalice.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
I am sure this has been thought of before. I would make it green/blue green to accel, blue to protect...
The GJ way path to no lynching:
You bring up a good point, and while I don't think O-Ring is what I have to worry about, something like Humility is.
However, that got me thinking, and if you and your opponent both put O-Ring into play you could take out his O-ring, and something else if he targeted your O-Ring. Just food for thought.
If you splash green then you have to cut away from basic lands, and what mana accelleration are you talking about? This deck already has a lot of it. I mean it can hard cast Darksteel Colossus on turn 3.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
Thanks Darth Monkey
The Mana Vortex/Crucible of Worlds combo is strong. I should know, I came up with it.
I agree that Platinum Angel would be sweet since I've already mentioned the card before on this thread. You can probably get away with putting it in the SB against combo and stuff, as well as a few Pact of Negation to compliment it.
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
Mana Vortex is basically used with Propaganda effects to deal with the most "prevalent" permanents on the board. Trinisphere also prevents them from playing anything once you get the Vortex/Crucible lock going. It's stronger than Smokestack, but only in the right deck and only under the right circumstances.
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
I have a deck that totally can abuse vortex, but that is another thread.
I find it funny that we are talking about how the deck needs more large beaters when we are running 4 11/11's and 4 7/10's, not to mention a 1/1 that can go infinate.
BTW, I was going through some old cards and read Relic Bind and was like I have a replacement for Wake Thrasher. I look up the card on the internet only to find they errata'ed it. What you know about infinate life and infinate damage with 2 cards, none of which are creatures! Such a shame about that reprint.:mad:
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
I would love to see the list that you've mentioned that abuses Mana Vortex. I bought 13 like a couple months ago (bought out all of them in stock at SCG.com for like a $1 a piece) after going public with the Mana Vortex/Crucible of Worlds combo. Not to mention I bought 16 Helm of Obedience for a buck a peice, as well. =P
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
Besides you have wastelands which can give you a more of a golden opportunity to cast whatever you need to play. Since wastelands denies them the use of their dazes, thoughtseizes, and postboard spells such as Krosan grip and perhaps Trygon Predator if they run it. Also preventing them from even casting a threat can be extremely detrimental to them as well and this deck is very capable of doing just that. On top of that you have trinisphere for their force of will but if you added chalice in the main that forces aggro-control opponents to play out of their essential rhythm which is also detrimental. Chalice of the void is like counterbalance in these builds in my opinion. That said, just like Counterbalance COTV can steal alot of wins.
Also on another note, you can potentially deny the aggro-control player on consistent land drops if you shut off their 1cc blue cantrips via chalice and then you can just detonate whatever lands they have in play with wasteland.
both still go for... a buck a piece!!!!! yeah!!!! i think you may hsve made a profit of ohhh..... .17 per?
also, i third the tangle wire, but in a stax shell
thanks to The Highlight Studios for the amazing avatar
Tried the Stax shell, and it didn't seem to work too well.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
hmmm... was it just not fast enough to beat aggro?
thanks to The Highlight Studios for the amazing avatar
It doesn't matter how much they're going for, it matters that I have some and you don't. Helm of Obedience is going for like $4 bucks a peices and Mana Vortex is sort of an investment since the card has potential. Mana Vortex will go up in price once people realize how broken it is.
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)