The December 1st Ban/Restricted List announcement has come out.... Link Here
Updates to the Banned and Restricted Lists will continue to be announced quarterly, but the timing is changing. Starting later this month, announcements will take place on the following schedule:
Announcement Date / Effective Date
December 20 / January 1
March 20 / April 1
June 20 / July 1
September 20 / October 1
Standard, Vintage, Legacy, Extended, Shards of Alara Block Constructed
No changes
Wow... apparently we have a 2.7 week unchanged banned restricted list. Damn, this is annoying. Anyways, you have a little over 2 and a half weeks to convince Wizards to unban all the cards you want them to unban. Good luck with that folks!
Library of Alexandria would be a terrible card to unban. Although it wouldn't warp the format, it would take Threshold and put it over the top, IMO...All of a sudden, everyone would need access to 4x Sinkhole and/or 4x Wasteland to stop the card advantage. CA wins games, if left unchecked, I heard...unbanning LoA would force us all to start running 4x wasteland to handle threshold + LoA
It would also create yet another land in 43 land that will cause seroius issues. It's not going to happen. Period.
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um... I think you are confusing 43 land with Aggro Loam.... 43 land doesn't actually use Seismic Assault, Aggro Loam on the other hand does....
no i was talking about 43 land deck. drew plays it and a lot of ppl i know play it regularly. they tend to discard their hand because of a card called manabond.
anyhow because they discard their whole hand most of the time they rarely if ever would use library's ability. even if you had multiple copies of the card, it is highly unlikely without retooling the whole deck you are going to use that.
Perhaps that was the incorrect link or something but majority of those "4X.dec" lists don't even run seismic assault. Seismic assault can have a place in 43 lands since the deck itself runs an amazingly synergetic card known as life from the loam. However, I thought unbanning Library of alexandria was the topic at hand here. I guess not ah well.
When a land is so strong it makes you want to draw it is broken. I guess people dont even realize that this land is one of the most broken lands ever printed. saying "UNBAN LOA!" is like saying "UNBAN BAAZAR OF BAGHDAD!" Just because ichorid isnt dominating doesnt mean you should unban a card that costs hundrads of dollars and would break a deck in half.
Unbanning library would be like turning a fire hose on a sleeping lion.
I would have to seriously question the mental stablity of any one who did it and lived to tell the tale.
Do you really think Thresh would use it? It doesn't even have any way to refill its hand / produce raw CA, this is silly.
Landstill would, though.
Wait a turn. BAM instant card advantage. realisticaly though the card is so strong that they would chose to draw with it in thier deck against most matchups. because thier first turn could be "Land brainstorm/ponder" followed by library draw, cantrip. They also would run a set of predicts/confidants just to accomidate this card. It really is nuts.
no i was talking about 43 land deck. drew plays it and a lot of ppl i know play it regularly. they tend to discard their hand because of a card called manabond.
anyhow because they discard their whole hand most of the time they rarely if ever would use library's ability. even if you had multiple copies of the card, it is highly unlikely without retooling the whole deck you are going to use that.
I am familiar with the 43 land decks. The thing about Manabond is you have to understand that this card is at best 4 out of 60 cards, and as we all know, that means that there is a far less likely chance of them actually drawing it in their opening hand than say 7 land cards in a 43 land deck. In otherwords, while it may be possible to discard their hand relatively often, it is also relatively likely that they will have a hand of 6 to 7 cards for most of the game.
@ Cecilia: As for running Seismic Assault in 4x land.dec, the problem is that Seismic Assault has a RRR casting cost. Most of the lands in 4x land.dec produce colorless or green mana. Those lands that do produce red mana are usually either pain or threshold lands or are not numerous enough to produce RRR mana consistently to provide the mana needed to play Seismic Assault. sure there are some builds of 4x Land.dec that have the ability to run it, but the majority do not.
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I am familiar with the 43 land decks. The thing about Manabond is you have to understand that this card is at best 4 out of 60 cards, and as we all know, that means that there is a far less likely chance of them actually drawing it in their opening hand than say 7 land cards in a 43 land deck. In otherwords, while it may be possible to discard their hand relatively often, it is also relatively likely that they will have a hand of 6 to 7 cards for most of the game.
@ Cecilia: As for running Seismic Assault in 4x land.dec, the problem is that Seismic Assault has a RRR casting cost. Most of the lands in 4x land.dec produce colorless or green mana. Those lands that do produce red mana are usually either pain or threshold lands or are not numerous enough to produce RRR mana consistently to provide the mana needed to play Seismic Assault. sure there are some builds of 4x Land.dec that have the ability to run it, but the majority do not.
@cecilia, no seismic assault isn't ran in land.dec.
@dalkon, i don't think you have played the deck. you NEVER have seven cards in hand! why not? exploration, mulch, mox diamond, AND manabond. land.deck is about exploding your board position and getting as many perms into play. it isn't about holding cards. ideally in land.deck you want to get between 5-7 land/mana producers into play and a tabernacle of pendrel vale with 0 cards in hand. then from that point you dredge life from the loam (so you can get more lands and put them into play with manabond) and swing with a bunch of man-lands.
you NEVER need library's ability because you will never have 7 cards in hand aside from the first turn. life from the loam is a far better enabler because you are drawing 3 cards per turn with it and putting more lands into the yard that you can put into play.
@ the guy who said bazaar isn't broken. bazaar is a far, far better card than library. you are drawing 2 cards but you get to discard 3 WITHOUT any restrictions. you can do that at any time. library can only be triggered once you have 7 cards in hand. and with bazaar you get a ton of graveyard enabling decks ala ichorid.
library would just be helpful for a few decks that aren't explosive. (obviously since library's ability is completely opposite of explosive --- holding unto 7 cards to get an extra draw)
Top Deck, WAYSS?? In any case, I agree, Life from the Loam probably is better than the Library of Alexandria. However that doesn't mean the Library automatically does not have a place in a deck such as 4x land.dec. I assure you that if Library were unbanned, that several decks in the meta that currently do not have a place for the library would swiftly find said place for the library.
@dalkon, i don't think you have played the deck. you NEVER have seven cards in hand! why not? exploration, mulch, mox diamond, AND manabond. land.deck is about exploding your board position and getting as many perms into play. it isn't about holding cards. ideally in land.deck you want to get between 5-7 land/mana producers into play and a tabernacle of pendrel vale with 0 cards in hand. then from that point you dredge life from the loam (so you can get more lands and put them into play with manabond) and swing with a bunch of man-lands.
you NEVER need library's ability because you will never have 7 cards in hand aside from the first turn. life from the loam is a far better enabler because you are drawing 3 cards per turn with it and putting more lands into the yard that you can put into play.
I'm more or less staying out of this debate as I just don't really feel like wading in, but I don't want to see anything miss-represented either. For starters Seismic assault is build dependent, it does get run in some lists, just not most.
And having played 43land for a while I can honestly say that you 7 cards in hand often enough, Loam is a pretty serious draw engine, and combined with Cycling lands... It's easy enough to jump back up to 7 cards in hand. This doesn't break LoA by any means, but it would certainly find a home in this deck as at least a 2 of. As straight card draw is always strong, and multiple in play is by no means a bad thing to have. Throw in Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth so they still add mana, and I would love to have a couple of these in my list.
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Well I wasn't saying running seismic assualt would be an optimal motive to utilize in 43.lands in general. I just said that you could run it if you really wanted to looks like sarcasm doesn't go too well on the internet.
Are you kidding me? Playing 4 mana drains in legacy landstill would be insane. I happened to had a chance to play mana drains in landstill before the seperation between the two banned lists(Type 1.5 and 1) and that experience was beyond amazing.
Kind of like how playing with Flash was "beyond amazing"... unless you were being shat UPON: the opponent might have something different to say.
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While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
Best Creature when Library was Legal: Serra Angel.
Free spells available when Library was Legal: None.
Tempo based decks around when Library was Legal: None.
Another card restricted at the same time as Library: Ivory Tower.
Combo decks around when Library was Legal: None.
Better draw engines than Library that are currently legal in Legacy: Life from the Loam. Standstill. Dark Confidant. Goblin Ringleader.
You can't use library early in the game in legacy because the format is too fast. To use it late you have to be already able to fill your hand without it... and if you can do that, the effect of the card becomes redundant. Yes, library advantage could very well decide control mirrors. What decides control mirrors right now? Mana advantage? Wastelock? Decree advantage? I don't think adding another variable into that mix would be a bad thing.
I wouldn't want LoA anywhere near Std or Ext, but in legacy, eh, it's ok.
EDIT: add Survival and any number of other legacy draw engines to that list of "better than library" stuff.
Best Creature when Library was Legal: Serra Angel.
Free spells available when Library was Legal: None.
Tempo based decks around when Library was Legal: None.
Another card restricted at the same time as Library: Ivory Tower.
Combo decks around when Library was Legal: None.
Better draw engines than Library that are currently legal in Legacy: Life from the Loam. Standstill. Dark Confidant. Goblin Ringleader.
You can't use library early in the game in legacy because the format is too fast. To use it late you have to be already able to fill your hand without it... and if you can do that, the effect of the card becomes redundant. Yes, library advantage could very well decide control mirrors. What decides control mirrors right now? Mana advantage? Wastelock? Decree advantage? I don't think adding another variable into that mix would be a bad thing.
I wouldn't want LoA anywhere near Std or Ext, but in legacy, eh, it's ok.
EDIT: add Survival and any number of other legacy draw engines to that list of "better than library" stuff.
well written morgan. hey don't forget that the best critter around when library was legal was juggernaut because everyone played walls back then. jugg got around that. of course everyone had plowshares and diamond valleys and timetwisters.
Anyway, my suggestion to all advocates of unbanning Library is: playtest it in Landstill (whatever colors) or even in Thresh, before you talk about better draw engines.
hey why not do this? take out standstill in landstill and try to only use library as the draw engine and see how far you go. then tell me that library is "more broke" than standstill.
I also tried plugging library into landstill as a 4x. I played vs. Rbg Goblins with wastelands and ports (only four basic mountains).
There are two big problems with just adding library as a 4x in landstill. Problem #1. It produces colorless. Seriously, this is big. Landstill decks already run Academy Ruins, Mishra's Factory, Wasteland/Dust Bowl, and sometimes Nantuko Monastery. That's a lot of colorless mana. Adding Libraries to that list (I cut spells, not lands) just pushes the colorless mana level way to high for the deck.
Problem #2) Dying. Generally speaking the deck would either a) contain the goblin rush while depleting it's hand and be unable to use library. or b) get library active and lose to poor tempo.
I don't think these problems are insurmountable, but the deck would have to be significantly re-worked to take advantage of Library. Which would make the deck more vulnerable when Library doesn't show up. I ran 10 games with U/W and 4c. Never once did I think Library was broken.
If a card only makes a certain build of a certain deck slightly better (possibly), does it really need to be banned?
EDIT: supporting Yuanti's statement above, I think library is much, much more useful in blue on blue fights than vs. combo or aggro.
5 of those are vs Threshold (UGr and UGwb) and 3 are vs Landstill without Libraries, all by competent pilots.
And yes, Standstill was gone.
basically you are stacking the test ie control vs. control. ic how it is. pretty bad testing. actually piss poor. how did you go against a combo deck or solid aggro deck?
hell why not run against a monoblack or b/w deck? or dreadstill? lol.
Goblins is less likely to lose to Library due to its speed and 8 anti use effects, Against Landstill two games were decided by Library, since I was drawing double what he was (The other he dropped a turn 2 wasteland).
Any control mirror would depend on who got a Library active, and the expense is far more of an issue here. Sure Grim/Imperial/Tabernacle are expensive, however, they are played in 1 or 2 decks each. Library would be played in every control deck, as well as some Aggro-Control decks. Also Grim, Tabernacle and Imperial aren't required for the deck's win, where Control mirrors would literally be decided by Library.
well i got your admission after the fact. oh well. library wouldn't break anything.
[sarcasm]hey doesn't tarmogoyf win in the mirror threshold matchup? why not just ban that? [/sarcasm]
why not slap library into a monored burn deck and see if you get more draws. oh i tested library in that and got 0 draws out of 100 games against competent players.
Control decks are more relevant to whether Library is broken. Necropotence isn't not broken because it can get its ass kicked by burn. Lotus isn't not broken because Stax can drop a 3sphere on it.
nice run around there. library is only relevant in a control vs. control matchup. it has little baring against other or with other decks. again bad testing and sampling.
You really should go test some Thresh mirrors if that's really your opinion of them.
how about threshold decks with fetchlands vs. threshold decks without them. or might as well include brainstorm there too, son. we might as well ban fetchlands son.
Announcement Date / Effective Date
December 20 / January 1
March 20 / April 1
June 20 / July 1
September 20 / October 1
Standard, Vintage, Legacy, Extended, Shards of Alara Block Constructed
No changes
Modern: Jund
T1: Remora Gush
MTGS Legacy Tournament #7 2nd
NYSE V Top 8, NYSE X Top 4, NYSE XVIII Top 4
Blue Bell X Top 4
Pro Tour: Philadelphia Day 2
NEV 4 1st, NEV 6 2nd, NEV 7 Top 4, NEV 9 Top 8, NEV 11 Top 8, NEV 13 Top 8
43 land are you serious? when does 43 land ever have 7 cards in hand? don't they usually discard their hand at EOT?
um... I think you are confusing 43 land with Aggro Loam.... 43 land doesn't actually use Seismic Assault, Aggro Loam on the other hand does....
no i was talking about 43 land deck. drew plays it and a lot of ppl i know play it regularly. they tend to discard their hand because of a card called manabond.
most of the better 43 land decks run that card. here's a link to familiarize yourself with common builds:
http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Lands.dec&format=Legacy
anyhow because they discard their whole hand most of the time they rarely if ever would use library's ability. even if you had multiple copies of the card, it is highly unlikely without retooling the whole deck you are going to use that.
Unbanning library would be like turning a fire hose on a sleeping lion.
I would have to seriously question the mental stablity of any one who did it and lived to tell the tale.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
Wait a turn. BAM instant card advantage. realisticaly though the card is so strong that they would chose to draw with it in thier deck against most matchups. because thier first turn could be "Land brainstorm/ponder" followed by library draw, cantrip. They also would run a set of predicts/confidants just to accomidate this card. It really is nuts.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
I am familiar with the 43 land decks. The thing about Manabond is you have to understand that this card is at best 4 out of 60 cards, and as we all know, that means that there is a far less likely chance of them actually drawing it in their opening hand than say 7 land cards in a 43 land deck. In otherwords, while it may be possible to discard their hand relatively often, it is also relatively likely that they will have a hand of 6 to 7 cards for most of the game.
@ Cecilia: As for running Seismic Assault in 4x land.dec, the problem is that Seismic Assault has a RRR casting cost. Most of the lands in 4x land.dec produce colorless or green mana. Those lands that do produce red mana are usually either pain or threshold lands or are not numerous enough to produce RRR mana consistently to provide the mana needed to play Seismic Assault. sure there are some builds of 4x Land.dec that have the ability to run it, but the majority do not.
@cecilia, no seismic assault isn't ran in land.dec.
@dalkon, i don't think you have played the deck. you NEVER have seven cards in hand! why not? exploration, mulch, mox diamond, AND manabond. land.deck is about exploding your board position and getting as many perms into play. it isn't about holding cards. ideally in land.deck you want to get between 5-7 land/mana producers into play and a tabernacle of pendrel vale with 0 cards in hand. then from that point you dredge life from the loam (so you can get more lands and put them into play with manabond) and swing with a bunch of man-lands.
you NEVER need library's ability because you will never have 7 cards in hand aside from the first turn. life from the loam is a far better enabler because you are drawing 3 cards per turn with it and putting more lands into the yard that you can put into play.
@ the guy who said bazaar isn't broken. bazaar is a far, far better card than library. you are drawing 2 cards but you get to discard 3 WITHOUT any restrictions. you can do that at any time. library can only be triggered once you have 7 cards in hand. and with bazaar you get a ton of graveyard enabling decks ala ichorid.
library would just be helpful for a few decks that aren't explosive. (obviously since library's ability is completely opposite of explosive --- holding unto 7 cards to get an extra draw)
I'm more or less staying out of this debate as I just don't really feel like wading in, but I don't want to see anything miss-represented either. For starters Seismic assault is build dependent, it does get run in some lists, just not most.
And having played 43land for a while I can honestly say that you 7 cards in hand often enough, Loam is a pretty serious draw engine, and combined with Cycling lands... It's easy enough to jump back up to 7 cards in hand. This doesn't break LoA by any means, but it would certainly find a home in this deck as at least a 2 of. As straight card draw is always strong, and multiple in play is by no means a bad thing to have. Throw in Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth so they still add mana, and I would love to have a couple of these in my list.
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It taps for colorless already. Urborg is unnecessary.
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This is like the "Tarmogoyf is bad because creature removal exists" idea... it doesn't work
Kind of like how playing with Flash was "beyond amazing"... unless you were being shat UPON: the opponent might have something different to say.
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
so isamaru what is your take on library being banned or not?
Best Creature when Library was Legal: Serra Angel.
Free spells available when Library was Legal: None.
Tempo based decks around when Library was Legal: None.
Another card restricted at the same time as Library: Ivory Tower.
Combo decks around when Library was Legal: None.
Better draw engines than Library that are currently legal in Legacy: Life from the Loam. Standstill. Dark Confidant. Goblin Ringleader.
You can't use library early in the game in legacy because the format is too fast. To use it late you have to be already able to fill your hand without it... and if you can do that, the effect of the card becomes redundant. Yes, library advantage could very well decide control mirrors. What decides control mirrors right now? Mana advantage? Wastelock? Decree advantage? I don't think adding another variable into that mix would be a bad thing.
I wouldn't want LoA anywhere near Std or Ext, but in legacy, eh, it's ok.
EDIT: add Survival and any number of other legacy draw engines to that list of "better than library" stuff.
well written morgan. hey don't forget that the best critter around when library was legal was juggernaut because everyone played walls back then. jugg got around that. of course everyone had plowshares and diamond valleys and timetwisters.
hey why not do this? take out standstill in landstill and try to only use library as the draw engine and see how far you go. then tell me that library is "more broke" than standstill.
what were you playing against? yourself? and i am assuming your were playing landstill WITHOUT standstills and only libraries?
There are two big problems with just adding library as a 4x in landstill. Problem #1. It produces colorless. Seriously, this is big. Landstill decks already run Academy Ruins, Mishra's Factory, Wasteland/Dust Bowl, and sometimes Nantuko Monastery. That's a lot of colorless mana. Adding Libraries to that list (I cut spells, not lands) just pushes the colorless mana level way to high for the deck.
Problem #2) Dying. Generally speaking the deck would either a) contain the goblin rush while depleting it's hand and be unable to use library. or b) get library active and lose to poor tempo.
I don't think these problems are insurmountable, but the deck would have to be significantly re-worked to take advantage of Library. Which would make the deck more vulnerable when Library doesn't show up. I ran 10 games with U/W and 4c. Never once did I think Library was broken.
If a card only makes a certain build of a certain deck slightly better (possibly), does it really need to be banned?
EDIT: supporting Yuanti's statement above, I think library is much, much more useful in blue on blue fights than vs. combo or aggro.
basically you are stacking the test ie control vs. control. ic how it is. pretty bad testing. actually piss poor. how did you go against a combo deck or solid aggro deck?
hell why not run against a monoblack or b/w deck? or dreadstill? lol.
well i got your admission after the fact. oh well. library wouldn't break anything.
[sarcasm]hey doesn't tarmogoyf win in the mirror threshold matchup? why not just ban that? [/sarcasm]
why not slap library into a monored burn deck and see if you get more draws. oh i tested library in that and got 0 draws out of 100 games against competent players.
nice run around there. library is only relevant in a control vs. control matchup. it has little baring against other or with other decks. again bad testing and sampling.
how about threshold decks with fetchlands vs. threshold decks without them. or might as well include brainstorm there too, son. we might as well ban fetchlands son.