okay this isn't so much using lich's tomb, but this is about breaking that old card lich.
apparently lich doesn't trigger on loss of life and works off of damage dealt. therefore i am suggesting a new lich storm combo deck featuring--- Ad Nauseam from shards of alara.
notice that you can draw as many cards as you want with ad nauseam since you aren't paying life. you can draw your whole deck with the card as long as lich is in play. now i just need a strong shell to flesh out the deck to get the 5 black mana once you get lich into play.
What about a hwhite-splash for Angel's Grace? It alows you to combo off in a single turn from 6 mana, can't be countered and you can't lose the game to Krosan grip
yes i was thinking about that. the deck will definitely run some method of getting green and/or white. maybe mox diamond or fetchland into the correct dual land.
And you need a sure way to get rid of Krosan Grip's before playing the Lich so at least 6 discarders have to be in there after boarding
well let's say for argument's sake we will play angel's grace and lich. if you are playing against someone who has grip go the grace route.
let's focus in on the kill cards and what could be in the deck. obviously when and if you can draw your whole deck in one turn with a single spell we should take full advantage of that.
You probably don't need much kill setup...2 copies of Tendrils somewhere in the deck and the manaramp effects that you'll play anyways should be more then enough after drawing your whole library and with some tutoring (which you would play anyway) you can even win some games without the combo just by stormchaining mana + tutors
the problem with tendrils is.... each copy makes you gain life which in turns makes you draw cards which in turn makes you lose the game unless of course you had angel's grace out in play and triggering.... another possibility would be to have tendrils going off and having a lich's tomb which would trigger when you lose the game and then you just go back to 20 and draw a bunch of cards.
i was hoping for some instant speed kill since you could set the whole thing up at instant speed.
x4 disciple of the vault, phyrexian walker, ornothopter, shield sphere.. or any 0 mana artifacts. something to sac the artifacts (if all creatures, carrion feeder?) to basically hulkflash, but with ad naseum.
it wouldnt be instant speed kill... but certainly would kill. im not sure what you mean by instant speed actually.. u wanna win at eot? while it is a plus, is it really necessary?
This card looks very interesting and basically ANY THING CAN LET YOU WIN. you could ritual into enough mana for 2 urza's rage with kicker even
delaying shield plus lich plus spiritual asylum, fountain watch. you win. Get damage to change to loss of life via the shield, and never have to do anything. Watch adn asylum provide double cover for each other.
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You know, I could see a legitimately effective decklist that wins off Lich in combination with cards like Soul Spike, Shadowfeed, Spinning Darkness, Syphon Life, etc. Hmmm... I think I'll go ahead and whip up a decklist for this!
Do you really want to turn krosan grip into 1GG: win the game ?
Yes angels grace helps out here, but if your going to have enough mana to play lich , angel's grace and ad nauseum your going to need a lot of tutors/mana boosting and luck.
I suppose the idea would be to combo off the turn Lich hits play Thoughtsieze can nab Krosan Grip prior to comboing off.
Also, no one runs Grip maindeck, so game 1 is an auto win, right right right?
I would run more disruption than just 4 Thoughtseize. Why not run 3-4 Duress as well? I'm not sure what you would take out though... maybe 1 Nefarious Lich and maybe 2 Syphon Life? Syphon Life is nice since it has retrace so you can still play it again and again for all those lands you draw into that clog up your hand. I still feel like you should sneak in 1 Tendrils as a guaranteed kill. Yes it will cause you to draw cards with Lich in play but a Tendrils at the right time can net you like 8, 10 or 12 cards, giving you that boost while killing your opponent. The key would be to play it at the right time though...
It looks like a ton of fun to play though. Either you go all in on one turn or die a miserable death due to Lich being bounced or Krosan Grip'd. Reminds me of SI and all the other Tendrils decks.
Or....you know, you can just combo without either Angel's Grace or Lich.
Why waste slots on useless stuff when you can just flat out win if you resolved an Ad Nauseam? Drawing 10-13 cards in a storm deck usually means gg for an opponent, and an alternate engine of 1 Ill-Gotten Gains can ensure an easier time against aggressive decks that can deal alot of damage fast, (thus, taking away resources from Ad Nauseam).
Something like this list have been in discussion over at the source for like 8 pages of post:
True, QSI would be pretty solid with Ad Nauseum. I think the post has split into two routes though; those that want to abuse Ad Nauseum and those that want to abuse Lich/Nefarious Lich. I would say since the deck posted is basically QSI, I'd post there if you have ideas on the deck.
Any thoughts with the deck listed before that abuses Lich and Nefarious Lich?
True, QSI would be pretty solid with Ad Nauseum. I think the post has split into two routes though; those that want to abuse Ad Nauseum and those that want to abuse Lich/Nefarious Lich. I would say since the deck posted is basically QSI, I'd post there if you have ideas on the deck.
Any thoughts with the deck listed before that abuses Lich and Nefarious Lich?
in any tendrils deck, ad nauseum doesn't seem as productive due to its cost of 5. i was suggesting the lich or angel's grace route because ad nauseum is an instant and instant kill cards tend to be great.
you can wait until the last possible moment and then proceed to go off in response to them attacking or trying to deal damage.
Why do you need to wait till they are attacking to combo out? If you have the stuff to win, just win, why need to wait?
Ad Nauseam being an instant is very good, true, but the way abusing it lies in the trick you can do with it with LED, it makes LED pretty much Black Lotus in this deck:
Play LED, use Ponder/Brainstorm/Mystical to put Ad Nauseam on top of your library, pass the turn.
Upkeep, play whatever you can play (rituals, chants, whatever) sac LED, go to draw phase, draw Ad Nauseam, cast it in draw phase because it's an instant, win.
Costing 5 is also not a problem, considering the tried and true Infernal -> IGG is 6 mana, Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns/Tendrils is 6 mana, Doomsday also needs at least 3 more mana floating to finish up. 5 mana to instantly win the game is actually pretty good.
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the old decks that abused lich and nef. lich were the green shoal + the 15 casting costed green 9/14 trampler wurm from ravnica. you drew 15 cards for 0 mana investment.
the issue i see with xanth's deck is that you need a lot of mana to get things going. soul spike can KO your opponent, but you can only do it 4 times. with lich in play, the 1 black gain 3 life card gives you a black ancestral recall, but again there needs to be a way to net more mana.
What about a hwhite-splash for Angel's Grace? It alows you to combo off in a single turn from 6 mana, can't be countered and you can't lose the game to Krosan grip
I've been working on this very concept for awhile, just posted my deck list in these forums.
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true it is. i guess i was looking for an excuse to use my beta liches.
I don't blame you. I'mma Lich freak myself (obviously). My latest Lich innovation runs Diamond Valley and Phyrexian Dreadnought. You sac the Dreadnought to Valley in response to it coming into play and draw 12 cards (yes, this does work.) It works the same way Mosswort Bridge and Dreadnought interacts.
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7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
I don't blame you. I'mma Lich freak myself (obviously). My latest Lich innovation runs Diamond Valley and Phyrexian Dreadnought. You sac the Dreadnought to Valley in response to it coming into play and draw 12 cards (yes, this does work.) It works the same way Mosswort Bridge and Dreadnought interacts.
lol... nice!
you should post up a decklist. that would be fun times.
you should post up a decklist. that would be fun times.
I have an old decklist but it hasn't been updated. I'm almost positive the latest change would be to run x3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, though, which is something I haven't thought of, until recently.
The list has things like Pandemonium, as the kill, and Candelabra of Tawnos (to abuse Diamond Valley) and a bunch of mana accelerants. I call it "Blood Lich" becuase of the red splash.
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Anything to stop you from using Zombie Infestation along with Ad Nauseam and your Lich Enchantment to change all the rest of your library into zombies, then just use an elixir of Immortality to shuffle them all back in?
Anything to stop you from using Zombie Infestation along with Ad Nauseam and your Lich Enchantment to change all the rest of your library into zombies, then just use an elixir of Immortality to shuffle them all back in?
You waited 5 and 1/2 years to say this, we could have warped the format.
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In Vintage (Type 1) > Budget Deck Discussion forum:
apparently lich doesn't trigger on loss of life and works off of damage dealt. therefore i am suggesting a new lich storm combo deck featuring---
Ad Nauseam from shards of alara.
notice that you can draw as many cards as you want with ad nauseam since you aren't paying life. you can draw your whole deck with the card as long as lich is in play. now i just need a strong shell to flesh out the deck to get the 5 black mana once you get lich into play.
a way could be to use culling the weak or other mana accel such as dark ritual or cadaverous bloom.
let's work out a deck and primer.
yes i was thinking about that. the deck will definitely run some method of getting green and/or white. maybe mox diamond or fetchland into the correct dual land.
well let's say for argument's sake we will play angel's grace and lich. if you are playing against someone who has grip go the grace route.
let's focus in on the kill cards and what could be in the deck. obviously when and if you can draw your whole deck in one turn with a single spell we should take full advantage of that.
the problem with tendrils is.... each copy makes you gain life which in turns makes you draw cards which in turn makes you lose the game unless of course you had angel's grace out in play and triggering.... another possibility would be to have tendrils going off and having a lich's tomb which would trigger when you lose the game and then you just go back to 20 and draw a bunch of cards.
i was hoping for some instant speed kill since you could set the whole thing up at instant speed.
it wouldnt be instant speed kill... but certainly would kill. im not sure what you mean by instant speed actually.. u wanna win at eot? while it is a plus, is it really necessary?
This card looks very interesting and basically ANY THING CAN LET YOU WIN. you could ritual into enough mana for 2 urza's rage with kicker even
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Hmmmm....
6x Swamp
6x Snow-Covered Swamp
Accel (16)
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
Key (8)
4x Lich
4x Nefarious Lich
4x Soul Spike
4x Shadowfeed
4x Syphon Life
Draw (8)
4x Cruel Bargain
4x Infernal Contract
Disrupt (4)
4x Thoughtsieze
4x Spinning Darkness
11x Other
Oh boy this looks fun to play
Beacon of Immortality + False Cure. It's also instant speed, which is a bonus for your deck.
I suppose the idea would be to combo off the turn Lich hits play Thoughtsieze can nab Krosan Grip prior to comboing off.
Also, no one runs Grip maindeck, so game 1 is an auto win, right right right?
It looks like a ton of fun to play though. Either you go all in on one turn or die a miserable death due to Lich being bounced or Krosan Grip'd. Reminds me of SI and all the other Tendrils decks.
Why waste slots on useless stuff when you can just flat out win if you resolved an Ad Nauseam? Drawing 10-13 cards in a storm deck usually means gg for an opponent, and an alternate engine of 1 Ill-Gotten Gains can ensure an easier time against aggressive decks that can deal alot of damage fast, (thus, taking away resources from Ad Nauseam).
Something like this list have been in discussion over at the source for like 8 pages of post:
1 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Rushing River
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Ad Nauseam
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Any thoughts with the deck listed before that abuses Lich and Nefarious Lich?
in any tendrils deck, ad nauseum doesn't seem as productive due to its cost of 5. i was suggesting the lich or angel's grace route because ad nauseum is an instant and instant kill cards tend to be great.
you can wait until the last possible moment and then proceed to go off in response to them attacking or trying to deal damage.
Ad Nauseam being an instant is very good, true, but the way abusing it lies in the trick you can do with it with LED, it makes LED pretty much Black Lotus in this deck:
Play LED, use Ponder/Brainstorm/Mystical to put Ad Nauseam on top of your library, pass the turn.
Upkeep, play whatever you can play (rituals, chants, whatever) sac LED, go to draw phase, draw Ad Nauseam, cast it in draw phase because it's an instant, win.
Costing 5 is also not a problem, considering the tried and true Infernal -> IGG is 6 mana, Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns/Tendrils is 6 mana, Doomsday also needs at least 3 more mana floating to finish up. 5 mana to instantly win the game is actually pretty good.
Check out my pauper cube!
and thanks to PurpleD @ [<--- Left Play Design <---] for making this awesome banner!
Limited is awesome, join us at [Limited]!
Updated the decklist, will be playtesting it soon:
6x Swamp
6x Snow-Covered Swamp
Accel (16)
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
Key (8)
4x Lich
4x Nefarious Lich
4x Soul Spike
4x Shadowfeed
4x Tendrils of Agony
2x Syphon Life
Draw (4)
2x Cruel Bargain
2x Infernal Contract
Disrupt (6)
4x Duress
2x Thoughtsieze
4x Spinning Darkness
2x Thoughtsieze
1x Raven's Crime
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Leyline of the Void
the old decks that abused lich and nef. lich were the green shoal + the 15 casting costed green 9/14 trampler wurm from ravnica. you drew 15 cards for 0 mana investment.
the issue i see with xanth's deck is that you need a lot of mana to get things going. soul spike can KO your opponent, but you can only do it 4 times. with lich in play, the 1 black gain 3 life card gives you a black ancestral recall, but again there needs to be a way to net more mana.
No, that would be me.
As for Ad Nauseum in Lich? Why would you play Lich instead of flat out winning with one card? Isn't Lich really win more in this situation?
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
true it is. i guess i was looking for an excuse to use my beta liches.
I've been working on this very concept for awhile, just posted my deck list in these forums.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
I don't blame you. I'mma Lich freak myself (obviously). My latest Lich innovation runs Diamond Valley and Phyrexian Dreadnought. You sac the Dreadnought to Valley in response to it coming into play and draw 12 cards (yes, this does work.) It works the same way Mosswort Bridge and Dreadnought interacts.
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
lol... nice!
you should post up a decklist. that would be fun times.
I have an old decklist but it hasn't been updated. I'm almost positive the latest change would be to run x3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, though, which is something I haven't thought of, until recently.
The list has things like Pandemonium, as the kill, and Candelabra of Tawnos (to abuse Diamond Valley) and a bunch of mana accelerants. I call it "Blood Lich" becuase of the red splash.
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
You waited 5 and 1/2 years to say this, we could have warped the format.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.