Hi. I'm kinda new to the Legacy format, and i was wondering, how fast should a deck be to be competitive?
this is still magic. and goldfishing a turn 1-3 doesn't mean you will win in a tourney, because you have disruption.
to answer your question, you can play even a type2 deck and win a tourney if you have the right disruption and are a savvy player and you have decent matchups.
i saw it recently in a 24-man legacy tourney where most everyone brought a well known legacy deck only to get trumped by a janky (even by type2 standards) standard deck.
everyone there was a good player and we had a few pro-players as well, but this guy (aka randomizer --- used to be here at mtgsalvation but got banned) was able to win every round of swiss with several 2-0 victories
and won every game until the final match. he got a second place slot and netted $125 in store credit while first got a juzam djinn.
legacy isn't as broke as vintage. you have faster tempo overall, but again it isn't about gold-fishing by any means.
Average turn for combo decks should be 2-3? It depends on the deck and what disruption it packs.
Belcher can often turn 1-2, but it's like a glass cannon.
Breakfast is slightly slower, but it's not being played at the moment.
Dredge is dredge. It's faster than extended dredge because you have Lion's Eye Diamond here (though dredge can also be played like an aggro/combo deck in legacy, so it isn't that glass cannon-y).
TES is pretty fast, and is often backed up with disruption, averages turn 2-3 I believe.
Fetchland Tendrils (the evolution of Iggy Pop) is slower, but it packs the most tutors/answers, it can combo turn 3-4 but with alot of protection backing it up (and you can easily do a turn 2 kills without protection too, it's just the old Infernal Tutor->Iggy loop).
TES and FT are considered the "best" combo decks at the moment, because they aren't one trick ponies. Dredge is played differently enough that some don't consider it combo.
To be competitive in Legacy, you can't only worry about speed. Though I guess if you want some kind of gauge, the primary aggro deck is goblins, which can kill pretty darn fast (slightly slower than combo, but not by much).
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If I'm playing TES and you're playing Goblins, I can pretty much just ignore whatever you are doing (beside the Wastelands) and just combo out before you could do anything. Which is why Goblins have always had a bad combo matchup preboard (enough that goblin players are splashing black for Cabal Therapy/Extirpate, also for the Warren Weirding, but that's for another matchup).
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I would definitely say you have decent stuff on the table by turn three, whether it be man lands or actual stuff. Legacy is a nice format, but you can't throw jank together and build a legacy deck. Could you block 26 damage on tun three? Prepare for that. Turn one, Taiga, Birds. Turn Two, Bayou, Buried Alive into Anger, Deranged Hermit, Deranged Hermit. Turn Three, Reanimate + Exhume. GG.
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Except that doesn't happen. Really narrow decks with "I have these specific X cards in hand and do these plays every game" never really happen.
The big players in the format are ready to punish strategies like that.
Be prepared to HATE cards like Spell Snare and Counterbalance.
Be prepared to have some sort of answer to a deck that plays Orim's Chant on turn 2 or 3, because they are about to end the game.
Be prepared to handle 4 or 5 creatures coming across the table on turn 3.
And be prepared to handle Tarmogoyf, 90% or more of aggro-control decks run him, almost all X/G aggro decks run him as well.
You want to have some sort of effect on the game by Turn 3.
Nearly all Storm Combo decks will be winning on turns 2-3, preceeded by a "you can't stop me" spell like Orim's Chant.
Many aggro/control builds will have their hands on the tempo by turn 3, stuffing Stifle/Daze/Spell Snare down your throat, then getting ready break you off with Tarmogoyf/Mongoose.
Many control decks will have an active Counter/Top combo or a Factory down with Standstill on the table, and a FoW/CSpell in hand by turn 3.
And the goblins player will have had a turn one of Goblin Lackey/AEther Vial, then turn 2 of Warchief/Wasteland, and they are on their warpath.
You can't forget Stax/prison variants, either. When they open up with a card that says "everything costs 3" or "you can't play things that cost 1", it really sucks.
There are a lot of decks in Legacy that are very good and can hold their own.
Don't believe it if someone tells you that only Threshold and Goblins are going to be good.
There are some EXTREMELY good Enchantress/Storm/Aggro/Loam/etc ideas and decks out there.
If you really want to see what is up in the Legacy environment, check out www.mtgthesource.com and of course this forums Legacy boards.
I'm not saying I win every time, but just saying, you have to be prepared for some wicked sick stuff. It all depends; it's all chance. You could have an opponent shuffle horribly and get stuffed, and you win. Or, you could have belcher go off and you havent even played yet.
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I'm finding as far as legacy goes, it is a lot more about meta as opposed to flat out speed. As Top Deck pointed out, if you can meta the field correctly, a "crappy" deck can come in and win a tourney.
That's unless you're playing combo, in which case you may have 1 more turn, possibly 2 before you absolutely need to start going off.
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this is still magic. and goldfishing a turn 1-3 doesn't mean you will win in a tourney, because you have disruption.
to answer your question, you can play even a type2 deck and win a tourney if you have the right disruption and are a savvy player and you have decent matchups.
i saw it recently in a 24-man legacy tourney where most everyone brought a well known legacy deck only to get trumped by a janky (even by type2 standards) standard deck.
everyone there was a good player and we had a few pro-players as well, but this guy (aka randomizer --- used to be here at mtgsalvation but got banned) was able to win every round of swiss with several 2-0 victories
and won every game until the final match. he got a second place slot and netted $125 in store credit while first got a juzam djinn.
legacy isn't as broke as vintage. you have faster tempo overall, but again it isn't about gold-fishing by any means.
Belcher can often turn 1-2, but it's like a glass cannon.
Breakfast is slightly slower, but it's not being played at the moment.
Dredge is dredge. It's faster than extended dredge because you have Lion's Eye Diamond here (though dredge can also be played like an aggro/combo deck in legacy, so it isn't that glass cannon-y).
TES is pretty fast, and is often backed up with disruption, averages turn 2-3 I believe.
Fetchland Tendrils (the evolution of Iggy Pop) is slower, but it packs the most tutors/answers, it can combo turn 3-4 but with alot of protection backing it up (and you can easily do a turn 2 kills without protection too, it's just the old Infernal Tutor->Iggy loop).
TES and FT are considered the "best" combo decks at the moment, because they aren't one trick ponies. Dredge is played differently enough that some don't consider it combo.
To be competitive in Legacy, you can't only worry about speed. Though I guess if you want some kind of gauge, the primary aggro deck is goblins, which can kill pretty darn fast (slightly slower than combo, but not by much).
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You need to be able to establish your presence no later than turn 3
and here i was thinking my opponent was just an empty chair this entire time!:o
If I'm playing TES and you're playing Goblins, I can pretty much just ignore whatever you are doing (beside the Wastelands) and just combo out before you could do anything. Which is why Goblins have always had a bad combo matchup preboard (enough that goblin players are splashing black for Cabal Therapy/Extirpate, also for the Warren Weirding, but that's for another matchup).
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and thanks to PurpleD @ [<--- Left Play Design <---] for making this awesome banner!
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Legacy:
Thanks to SGT Chubbs for the sig
Except that doesn't happen. Really narrow decks with "I have these specific X cards in hand and do these plays every game" never really happen.
The big players in the format are ready to punish strategies like that.
Be prepared to HATE cards like Spell Snare and Counterbalance.
Be prepared to have some sort of answer to a deck that plays Orim's Chant on turn 2 or 3, because they are about to end the game.
Be prepared to handle 4 or 5 creatures coming across the table on turn 3.
And be prepared to handle Tarmogoyf, 90% or more of aggro-control decks run him, almost all X/G aggro decks run him as well.
You want to have some sort of effect on the game by Turn 3.
Nearly all Storm Combo decks will be winning on turns 2-3, preceeded by a "you can't stop me" spell like Orim's Chant.
Many aggro/control builds will have their hands on the tempo by turn 3, stuffing Stifle/Daze/Spell Snare down your throat, then getting ready break you off with Tarmogoyf/Mongoose.
Many control decks will have an active Counter/Top combo or a Factory down with Standstill on the table, and a FoW/CSpell in hand by turn 3.
And the goblins player will have had a turn one of Goblin Lackey/AEther Vial, then turn 2 of Warchief/Wasteland, and they are on their warpath.
You can't forget Stax/prison variants, either. When they open up with a card that says "everything costs 3" or "you can't play things that cost 1", it really sucks.
There are a lot of decks in Legacy that are very good and can hold their own.
Don't believe it if someone tells you that only Threshold and Goblins are going to be good.
There are some EXTREMELY good Enchantress/Storm/Aggro/Loam/etc ideas and decks out there.
If you really want to see what is up in the Legacy environment, check out www.mtgthesource.com and of course this forums Legacy boards.
Legacy:
Thanks to SGT Chubbs for the sig
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