Before I begin I’d like to properly extend my thanks to UDemon, for his great job on the old Eva Green Primer. He did a great job, and I’m happy to be the one to update such a great archetype. Also, I’d like to include everyone who has been following the Eva Green thread and has helped in sharing their ideas and playtesting which has kept my interest in Eva Green alive. That being said, if there is anything that I may have missed, or if something new comes up please feel free to let me know, and I will do my best to keep this original post up to date as best as possible. Now, on to the Primer…
Ever since the days of Legacy began, mono-black suicide has been a deck that offers a great mixture of disruption (both field and hand) and an aggro-type offense. With the printing of Tarmogoyf in Future Sight, mono-black suicide could no longer resist the splash of G. Now, we have an already dangerous deck packed with the best tempo based disruption cards available being back up by one of the best beaters in Legacy. Thus, Eva Green was created. The deck itself is named after the actress who in the 2006 Bond film, "Casino Royale", played a character who committed suicide in the end.
Playing The Deck:by Dan Signorini and Anwar Ahmad.
After reading this article I came to the conclusion that these guys explain the deck better than I ever could.
You can find the article in it's entirety here
One thing you need to remember when you play Eva Green is that you are trying to hamper your opponent's strategy while accelerating your own. You need to hammer your opponent hard and fast in order to successfully execute your strategy. Your opening seven cards are a lot more important than those of other decks that have manipulation or card drawing ability. The game will often be decided with the decisions you make in the first few turns. A few things to consider about your opening seven:
- Do I have two permanent Black sources, or enough of a fast start with Dark Ritual(s)?
- Does my hand represent a good mixture of threats and disruption?
- Do I have access to Green mana?
If you answer No to any of these questions, you probably want to consider taking a mulligan.
Do not be afraid to mulligan aggressively with Eva Green. This deck will not win most games by having more cards in its hand than its opponent. The ability to play more of your cards faster than your opponent is the objective. Limit your opponent’s options while expanding your own, and take advantage of the time to win while your opponent is unable to do anything in the window that you have given yourself. Having seven cards in hand is not going to do your opponent any good if they can’t cast any of them, or if they are dead before they can start to execute their own strategy.
Do as much as possible on any given turn. You do not want to play reactively. Make your opponent answer your threats and keep on swinging if they are unable to. Play your disruption intelligently and use your life total as a resource. Sometimes using that Snuff Out on a Birds of Paradise is a very good call when you have a Sinkhole or Wasteland to back it up. Sometimes it is not the best idea, for example when a Thoughtseize reveals a mana heavy hand with little to no threats or blockers. Determining which of your opponent’s resources is in short supply is the first step in making the most of your disruption. Playing Eva Green properly takes some practice, but the deck is very powerful and its disruptive strategy is intriguing.
Tarmogoyf – he’s the whole reason mono-black suicide evolved into Eva Green. One of the best beaters in the format. Who wouldn’t want such a powerful beater for only 1G? No debate about it. Run 4.
Tombstalker – One word can describe this guy…BEASTLY. He is a 5/5 flyer for a measly BB. It may conflict your Tarmogoyfs power/toughness at times, but with a deck that holds tons of Instants, Sorceries, Fetchlands, etc. This shouldn’t stop you from running him. I suggest running 2-3. Although I have seen decks run a playset. Find what fits you best, and stick with it, but definitely run him.
Nantuko Shade – a great mid-game beater. Turns that top-deck Dark Ritual into a Giant Growth. It can go toe to toe with most creatures in legacy. Like Tombstalker, I run 3, although some decks run 4. New lists have taken this beater out. The reason for that is the running of dark confidants. With dark confidant, you will be playing spells each turn, therefore, you won't have the mana for a mana-sinking creature.
Hypnotic Specter – No doubt a legend in the game. A 2/2 flyer with an added bonus. A great turn 1 drop with the assistance of Dark Ritual. Some people prefer Vampire Nighthawk for the added pseudo-removal, although running the Hyppie is nothing to frown upon. Definitely a 4 of.
Vampire Nighthawk - A new contender to the deck. Offers pseudo-removal and extra toughness can be a help as well. Can also help with cancelling out the life loss from fetches and Thoughtseize. Not a bad choice, and is definitely worth playtesting.
Gatekeeper of Malakir – another new contender in the deck. I’ve playtested this guy as a 2-of. Although he may not be as potentially strong as the rest of the deck, he is still a viable option, depending upon your build. I wouldn’t suggest him as anything more than a 2-of, if any.
The Debatable Bob:
Dark Confidant is probably one of the most debatable cards in current Eva Green lists. I am against running him due to the huge life loss we already face. Yes, card advantage is important, but it is quite a risk when running Tombstalker. If you run Sensei's Divining Top perhaps it’s a maybe. Some decks have reported success while running the Confidant, so I will not completely dismiss this card. But it is something to rethink, depending upon how you build your deck. (Any further results, experience playing this card, would be greatly appreciated.)
Creatures That Didn’t Make The Cut:
Abyssal Persecutor - This is has potential to be a beast in Legacy, just not in Eva Green. Tombstalker will always be the beast of the deck as he is cheap, strong and doesn’t require a deck to be built around him. I’m not knocking the Persecutor, but he belongs in Pox builds if anywhere. The deck would become much too fragile if you added Persecutor, because you have to build your deck around him. This means choosing which cards to take out to add in your Cabal Therapy, Innocent Blood, etc. All cards that belong in a Pox deck if anywhere. If ANYONE has results that say otherwise, please let me know. I am just speaking from points made in the old Primer, personal experience and general points that are obvious to spot.
Phyrexian Negator - used to be a good card for the deck, but has been wildly outclassed since the inclusion of Tarmogoyf. Some lists still try him out, but I still consider this card to be obsolete now.
Nyxathid – Although a decent card, it just feels like a wasted slot for this deck. Again, if anyone has any positive experience with this card in Eva Green, feel free to correct me.
Putrid Leech – A couple things wrong with this card. Adds too much to our already suicide tendencies. Also, although it is an early game creature, I think most of us would agree that having BB available turn 2 is more important than having GB available. I know Bayou is at our disposal, but I still think that there are better cards than this guy. He was a great thought, but quickly proved to be obsolete. Sorry little guy!
Glissa, the Traitor - Deathtouch, first strike. Good card especially equipped with a umezawa's jitte. The problem is pulling the double Green mana. Not so easy. Also, what artifact are you going to revive anyways?
Thoughtseize – possibly one of the best turn one drops you can find in a black deck. Without a Ritual in hand.
Hymn to Tourach – most people would agree that this card is the best discard card in MTG. Has the ability to hit lands and when matched with a Turn 1 Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, you gain some serious control early on.
Snuff Out – Great FREE spell. Sure 4 life may seem like a lot to pay for destroying a NON-black creature, but it can definitely be a defining spell at times. Smother is another alternative.
Smother – Some choose this card over Snuff Out. I prefer it myself, although Snuff Out is a top choice amongst most players. Diabolic Edict is another option I’ve seen in some lists.
Sinkhole – Not much is needed to say here. It’s ability to hit basics is definitely a bonus. When used with Wasteland, you have a devastating Land Destruction package here. UPDATE - this card is kinda dated, especially with all the vial decks out there. This is by far the weakest card in the deck. There is current testing to find a replacement over this slot.
Dark Ritual – BBB for B at instant speed? Sounds like a keeper to me. This card provides us with great turn 1 plays is never a dead card mid or late-game when a Nantuko Shade is on the field. Auto include.
Maelstrom Pulse – Another reason for the splash. I have seen some debate of this card. It’s really a “pick your preference” card. Some points have been made that Snuff Out/Smother and/or a sided in Krosan Grip could take care of anything you need, but this is still a card worth mentioning.
Pernicious Deed – Argued that it is too slow, but I’ve recently maindecked this over Maelstrom Pulse and have had great success. Plus, once popped, it adds another +1/+1 to your Tarmogoyf, being the only enchantment in the deck.
Seal of Primordium – a debatable card. Has the bonus of being an enchantment which adds to our Goyf’s.
Inquisition of Kozilek – Much speculation over this new gem. I personally believe it can replace Duress and run alongside Thoughtseize, but I doubt it will ever replace Thoughtseize. However, once thoroughly playtested I will update this.
Wasteland – A Legacy staple. As stated above, when run with a playset of Sinkholes, you have a great LD package and can bring decks to a screeching halt.
Bayou – Provides you with that much desired splash. Most decks nowadays are seen running 4 alongside a single Forest to avoid being screwed by those nasty opposing Wastelands.
Polluted Delta/Bloodstained Mire – Helps you search out your Bayous and basic Swamps. Thins out your deck, pumps your Tarmogoyf and can be used to Delve out an early Tombstalker.
Verdant Catacombs – for decks that run that single Forest mentioned above.
Swamp – Given
Forest – make room for a single one of these. You’ll be thanking me if your opponent manages to shut down your Bayous.
Sensei's Divining Top – Makes running Bob somewhat justified. Not completely necessary, but always a gem to have if you draw it. Completely optional.
Reanimate – I personally run a single copy of this and wouldn’t advise running anymore than that if you run them at all. Provides a great turn 2 after snagging a great off a turn 1 Thoughtseize. Doesn’t hurt late game either.
Ghastly Demise – Not really seen in many lists, but if you’re on a budget, something you may want to look into.
Unearth – Decent card to return your Goyf or you can cycle it for the extra card draw.
Blackmail – another discard spell that can possibly hit lands. Completely optional.
Umezawa's Jitte - This card has won me games. However, he is slow to equip. however with the running of dark confidants in the newest playlist, I think jitte could help minimize life loss. Dark confidants also help you draw the necessary mana to cast and equip on the same turn.
Pithing Needle – optional card. Can be the difference in some games, although it’s not used in all sideboards. I personally never leave home without them
Tormod's Crypt – I’ve seen some lists run this in the sideboard. I prefer the Leyline but I believe it’s been used enough to earn a spot in this Primer.
Perish – Can clear a field, and get rid of those nasty little creatures that may be in your way. (thanks to Popeye79 for changing my views on this card)
Engineered Plague – evens the playing field against tribal aggro decks. Merfolk, Goblins, Elves beware…Don't leave home without it.
Leyline of the Void - Keeps your opponents graveyard empty for free. Helps prevent a turn 2 Iona.
Umezawa’s Jitte – a debatable card that can help against aggro match-ups. It’s not seen as universal sideboard card. I personally believe that it is meta-game dependant. Solution? Playtest it and see what feels right.
Krosan Grip – another reason to splash green. Provides the ability to get rid of those nasty Moat and Trinisphere, etc.
Extirpate – a universally known sideboard card that serves many purposes.
Choke – Just a solid card. I see this in a number of sideboards, but don’t run it myself. I don’t doubt it’s importance though. UPDATE - This card is not as useful as before, especially with all the vial decks out there
Phyrexian Revoker - The new pithing needle. Cannot target manlands, but its a creature and a blocker.
I’ve seen some users (myself included) mention that they were having trouble drawing into land and were starting to question whether their land count was to blame. I have thoroughly playtesting with this idea by going to 22 land. I can safely say that 21 land is your best bet. It could be the shuffling, or just the bad luck of the draw. If it becomes a consistent problem, I may suggest running Sensei's Divining Top to help your problems, but I don’t think it’s completely necessary.
Most of those “Slots of Choice” are usually directed towards disruption and/or targeted removal. Snuff Out, Smother, Diabolic Edict, etc.
Be aware though, that when you start running more cards requiring W, the more fragile the deck can be come. Mainly the mana-base. However, Vindicate, when run alongside Sinkhole and Wasteland, offers a devastating land denial package that can leave your opponent quivering.
- Notice how he runs 20 lands, 2 snuff out, 2 tombstalker, only running 5 fetchlands. This is to minimize the exposure to Dark Confidant. With Dark Confidant, you do not need to run that many lands as he well help you get lands into your hand each turn. Personally, I playtested this deck by running 2 tombstalker. I think out of the 30 or so hands that i played, I ate tombstalker twice. I think the odds are pretty good.
His engineered plague maindeck is used as removal.
5 Color Threshold (favorable): Although an early Counterbalance can be devastating for us, we have many ways to prevent our opponents from setting up their Counterbalance + Top lockdown. Between Thoughtseize and Hymn To Tourach we can stop Counterbalance from ever hitting the field. Seal of Primordium is a good defense as well. Sinkhole can play a big part in this match up as well. They rely on several colors to play their spells. Depriving them of this can slow them down long enough for you to gain the advantage. Dark Ritual can help you race them on their quest to drop a Counterbalance.
Between Force of Will, Daze, Swords to Plowshares and Snuff Out it can be difficult to keep creatures in play so dropping your threats and being able to keep them in play is a huge difference maker. To win this “creature war” you can use a Thoughtseize or Duress to figure what your opponents options are. Are they planning on dropping an early Counterbalance or are they planning dropping an early goyf to put you on the defensive? This information can you help you plan out your disruption for that game. Choke is a great sideboard card for this matchup.
UGR Thrash (favorable): The main difference between this matchup and 5 Color is that Thrash utilizes resource denial more than Counterbalance. Stifle, Wasteland, Daze, Force of Will and Spell Snare are probably your biggest worries in this deck. They can counter and deny lands just like you can. Playing on their level could be a good strategy. Cards like Sinkhole and Wasteland can slow them down just enough to hammer in your own threats. With so much disruption on both sides it’s possible for one side to get completely blown out with no lands or no relevant spells left to play. Tombstalker can be a problem for them in the late game. Pulling Choke from the board is a good call on your part.
Goblins (very favorable): This is a game highly in our favor. Snuff out is a good answer to turn one lackey and dropping a Tarmogoyf just ruins their day. Don't play shade without at least one swamp untapped simply in case they drop a Mogg Fanatic. Specter and Tombstalker are your best friends here. Don't let them get too much board position and you should be good. Plagues from the board make this match even better post-board.
Dredge (very unfavorable): This is a very bad match-up for us. We need to race them, which is hard in a lot of cases. Also, our discard could potentially be in their favor. Snuffing out your own creature to get rid of a bridge is sometimes needed. Leylines and plagues come in against them.
Combo: (favorable): Most of the current combo is in our favor. We have enough disruption of all kinds (seize, sinkhole, hymn, wasteland, hypnotic specter, etc) to hold our own against combo. Nothing in the sideboard helps against this match-up, but you shouldn't need to worry too much.
Elves (slightly unfavorable): Elves have something that goblins don't and this is mana acceleration. Letting them get too many elves early on is a very bad thing. I tend to keep a sinkhole and snuff out for first turn Forest > Mana elf. For having 3 mana for an elf player on turn 2 is a bad thing for us.
Aggro Loam (unfavorable): We basically need to race them and get our disruption to hit fast. Usually they stall or beat us down with their bigger creatures and have more ways to kill us than we can handle or race (such as seismic assault). The best strategy is to exploit the early game especially via Dark Ritual. Getting multiple creatures into play can overwhelm Aggro Loam in the early game. Use Snuff Out to steal tempo by taking down a creature that your opponent spent his whole turn playing.
Post-board, use Leyline of the Void to control the size of your opponent's creatures and prevent Life from the Loam recursion. Jitte can accelerate your clock and act as additional removal in addition to Snuff Out. A difficult matchup, but more than winnable given the right strategy and the right sideboard.
Stax (slightly favorable): This basically comes down to whoever plays first. A first turn 3sphere ruins our day and makes ritual useless. Hypnotic specter and Tombstalker can help us over moat, but STPs aren't our best friends.
Burn (unfavorable): With 8 fetches + Thoughtseize, burn becomes too much to handle. We need a quick Goyf or Tombstalker to even stand a chance against burn. Definitely not what you want to play against.
Landstill (favorable): Four color landstill tends to be alot easier as tombstalker cannot be killed by pernicious deed, and their manabase is so disruptable. Blue/white landstill however runs wrath of god in addition to swords to plowshares, and has a much more stable manabase. Any way you slice it your goal here is to disrupt them and drop a huge threat, repeating as necessary. (this information is taken from the Source seeing as I have never played against Landstill)
Merfolk (favorable): Game 1 I personally had some trouble with it, as they were rather quick and controlling. However, a post board Choke can be Good Game, especially when paired with Engineered Plague. The key to fighting merfolk is to break the standstill asap. Fetch basic lands to avoid their wastelands Pithing needle is not really needed because merfolk tends to run out of steam. The best idea is to cast an instant after their declare their end of turn to make them discard.
Pox (slightly favorable): Although they have just as much as disruption as we do, we are faster and have a more offense on our side. I personally believe that it's a more even match-up and can possibly depend on the opening hand. In the end, when they run out of steam we still have creatures beating face. Don't be mistaken though. When going into a match-up versus a well built Pox deck, it can be a good game. (I only have played a couple games against Pox, but if anyone was more insight on Eva Green vs Pox that'd be helpful. Thanks)
Enchantress (favorable): We have enough fast disruption to take control early on. An early Elephant Grass can slow us down, but if we take out their resources with our LD package we can regain the upperhand. Early Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach are great here. Grabbing their Argothian Enchantress can devastate them and ruin their game plan. Moat can stall us, but nothing more. Once we lay down a Tombstalker, Moat becomes nothing but an amusement for us. From my personal experience, this match up shouldn't be under estimated, as if given the chance, they can come back and surprise us. Just lay down your disruption package and keep the heat on and you shouldn't really have too much of a problem.
Deadguy Ale (unfavorable) Game 1 you will most likely lose. You will most likely be playing snuff outs, which cannot target their abyssal persecutors. This is a huge problem, since they will be dictating the board presence. Game 2, you take out the snuff out, sinkholes. Side in hate cards like maelstrom pulse or the new card Go For The Throat. Even then, the matchup is still unfavorable since they have too many removals against your very limited creature base. They have 4 vindicates, 4 swords to plowshares, some run diabolic edicts, and some with innocent blood. That is just too many removal. Also with bitterblossom in play, you will have a very difficult time attacking them each turn. You must put in pernicious deed and open the door for your tombstalker to attack. Even then, they have lots of removal against you. The new version now runs Mirran Crusader, mother of runes, aether vials, stoneforge mystics. This deck can be overwhelming with lots of protection against your spells. Pernicious deed is your best friend here. Krosan Grips, maelstrom pulses are a MUST.
The Gate (unfavorable) - The presence of bitterblossom and a bunch of removals is a huge problem. Add in the equipments and you got a tough, tough road against you. Use Krosan Grips against their bitterblossoms, swords, and jitte. power your way through with goyf. Other than that, they have lots of chump blockers and removals to stop you. Not an easy deck to fight. Try to disrupt their hand and get the bitterblossoms, swords and jitte. It will help a lot. Eventually this matchup will go into top deck mode for both players. Its really who has the stronger creatures out at this point. But with 4 abyssals and 9 removals, its HARD.
I hope this is more up-to-date and that if there is anything I missed please chime in and I will add it in. Thanks.
I think it should be pointed out that you dont actually have 7 open spots.
Its more like choose 4 cards for removal and then you have 3 utility/meta slots.
Why did you put 4 Tombstalkers and 4 Nantuko Shades in "Eva Green's Core" if you've mentioned they're almost never played as a 4-of?
Because I didn't want to strictly list my personal decklist, I figure I'd stick with the basic beaters of Eva Green and let those who wish to tamper with it, do so accordingly. I see your point though.
@ Throst54 - point taken, I'll fix that in a minute. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Decks
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Why in the hell did you start a new primer/thread, when we already have one, and this pretty much is exactlly the same as the other one?
did you ask Cabal Chan for permission?
Perish – I’m a little iffy about this card, but I’ve seen it in enough decks where I feel like it deserves a spot in the Primer.
it's one of my favorite sideboard cards and i won't leave home with out it. I don't understand why you're iffy at all about it, unless you're in a severly under-developed meta.
kills: PROGENITUS!!!, Wild nectal, Noble heirarch, Quasi pridemage, Rhox warmonk, Knight of the reliquary, Terravore, and yes- GOYF! and much more.
Just hold your goyf back, play the 3mana damnation, then drop goyf and win.
I play 3 in my side
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Why in the hell did you start a new primer/thread, when we already have one, and this pretty much is exactlly the same as the other one?
did you ask Cabal Chan for permission?
it's one of my favorite sideboard cards and i won't leave home with out it. I don't understand why you're iffy at all about it, unless you're in a severly under-developed meta.
kills: PROGENITUS!!!, Wild nectal, Noble heirarch, Quasi pridemage, Rhox warmonk, Knight of the reliquary, Terravore, and yes- GOYF! and much more.
Just hold your goyf back, play the 3mana damnation, then drop goyf and win.
I play 3 in my side
First off, calm down man, lol. I know it's very similiar to the old Eva Green Primer, but the old OP seemed out of date. So I asked Cabal if I could rewrite/update the primer.
Also, I understand that Perish is a good card. My personal opinion shouldn't seem like a personal attack to your meta. I simply stated that I wasn't crazy about it, but still acknowledge it as a sideboard card. That's what I added it in there, lol.
Is there anything I might have missed? I will stay on top of this Primer as often as I can, unless Cabal_Chan decides to bring back the other one.
i had played a g/b sort of eva green type deck in a legacy tournament a few months back and went 5-2 with it.
i had 4 confidant and there was 1 random sylvan library.
i was able to get both out during one match, i had already established control and together they were extremely powerful. (i was vs some landstill deck that round that was using aether vials to sneak out goyfs/serendibs) i wish i was able to fit more sylvans in the deck but i couldn't find room. i dont get to play much because i had to borrow the bayous and some other cards from a friend.
sylvan is a lot better than guile because you can actually draw a few extra cards if you need to.
Would you mind posting your list to help get a discussion going?
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Decks
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Question: Are we discussing the white splash in this thread? I have been running Eva Green w/ white splash for some time now. If so, we should probably mention some of the white splash versions in the new thread.
Here's my current white-splash list for referrence:
Also, I understand that Perish is a good card. My personal opinion shouldn't seem like a personal attack to your meta. I simply stated that I wasn't crazy about it, but still acknowledge it as a sideboard card. That's what I added it in there, lol.
calm down? i am calm. i wasn't mad or anything, and i refuse to type "lol" after everything just so people know i'm not mad. thats just me.
your primers says you are "iffy" about perish, you're only including it because you've seen other people run it. "iffy" to me, says- you're not sure.. need more info. thats what i was attempting to offer. perish is a great card in the format right now, end of story. it shouldn't be "iffy", and shouldn't be described as such in a primer.
about that....
i just don't feel that makeing a whole new thread is a good idea. if someone wants to pick up the deck and learn about it, they're going to read pretty much the entire thread to gain valuble insight into how the deck works, sideboard tech, cards that have been tested, ect.
i've even seen many people answer a new person's question "read the thread, it's been discussed many times". and i kind of agree with that. if you really want to learn the deck, take the time and effort to learn... read. thats what i do everytime i want to pick up a new deck seriously.
don't you get tired of answering the same questions over and over again? this will just get worse if the old thread gets archived.
you did a fine job on the primer, and i applaud your enthusiasm, i just don't agree with it's existance. and i'm actually pretty surprised you made it in the first place.. how much tourny experience can you possible have with this deck to qualify you to make a primer or give advice?.....
it just seems odd that a few months ago (Ded 30th to be exact) you first came to the eva thread saying your new to the deck and don't have the cards yet.. then you give up tring and shortly after move to pox, then all of a sudden you're back to eva, and this time you're going to make a whole new primer, that's not needed, for a deck you barely learned how to play a few months ago and may not even have the cards, so highly unlikely you even played in a tourny of any sort with it? really?
i'm not tring to be an ass, and i truely am sorry if i'm offending you here... i've enjoyed discussing the deck with you in the past and hope to continue to in the future (i've been takeing a break from eva for the past month or so, but eva's been my primary deck for a long while, and still my favorite). so....
@ Cabal Chan- if this is up to debate, or vote, or anything.... personally, i'd like you to just update the original thread/primer with some new card choices, and merge the two threads, or delete this one, or whatever. you get the picture.
but hey, this is just one mans opinion.
about white splash-
i also think you should include some white splash and doran sui lists as well, since we've been directed to the eva thread for such discusion. i had some prettty good results with a doran sui deck i posted in the other tread a month or so ago.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
calm down? i am calm. i wasn't mad or anything, and i refuse to type "lol" after everything just so people know i'm not mad. thats just me.
fair enough.
your primers says you are "iffy" about perish, you're only including it because you've seen other people run it. "iffy" to me, says- you're not sure.. need more info. thats what i was attempting to offer. perish is a great card in the format right now, end of story. it shouldn't be "iffy", and shouldn't be described as such in a primer.
Which is why I thanked your for explaining to my why it is such a great card. I don't claim to know everything about the deck or about legacy in general. The old thread was a learning experience for me and I am still learning. Which is why I am accepting and asking peoples knowledge to make this primer better and more informative. That way, newer people don't have to read through 58+ pages of debates about a card. They can simply read the primer, create their decklist and happily join the discussion.
about that....
i just don't feel that makeing a whole new thread is a good idea. if someone wants to pick up the deck and learn about it, they're going to read pretty much the entire thread to gain valuble insight into how the deck works, sideboard tech, cards that have been tested, ect.
i've even seen many people answer a new person's question "read the thread, it's been discussed many times". and i kind of agree with that. if you really want to learn the deck, take the time and effort to learn... read. thats what i do everytime i want to pick up a new deck seriously.
don't you get tired of answering the same questions over and over again? this will just get worse if the old thread gets archived.
you did a fine job on the primer, and i applaud your enthusiasm, i just don't agree with it's existance. and i'm actually pretty surprised you made it in the first place.. how much tourny experience can you possible have with this deck to qualify you to make a primer or give advice?.....
it just seems odd that a few months ago (Ded 30th to be exact) you first came to the eva thread saying your new to the deck and don't have the cards yet.. then you give up tring and shortly after move to pox, then all of a sudden you're back to eva, and this time you're going to make a whole new primer, that's not needed, for a deck you barely learned how to play a few months ago and may not even have the cards, so highly unlikely you even played in a tourny of any sort with it? really?
You're right I am very new to this deck. Again, I never claimed to be an expert. In fact YOU are one of the people (of many) who has helped me learn about this deck. I still have a lot to learn and improve on. I don't go to tournaments that often, but would like to. So I did research, from peoples advice here, to the source, to starcitygames.com to random articles I googled and felt was a valid source of information. I didn't just copy and paste the whole primer that UDemon did. I did do his Match Up analysis, but am in the process of going into more "indepth" detail about those matchups and more as I read more about them.
I don't think I should be forced to play a tourney to be considered a decent magic player and be able to write a primer. Yes, I agree it helps and would make this primer better but I would like to think that people are more worried about the card choices and matchups. Which I believe I provided? Other than Perish, is there anything else on this primer I have mislead you about? If you were a new player to Eva Green, would this provide you with enough information to get the basic idea of what Eva Green is? Isn't that really what matters most here? That it provides enough information to those who are newer? Just my opinion on that.
i'm not tring to be an ass, and i truely am sorry if i'm offending you here... i've enjoyed discussing the deck with you in the past and hope to continue to in the future (i've been takeing a break from eva for the past month or so, but eva's been my primary deck for a long while, and still my favorite).
it's all good man. I'm not offended, you're voicing your opinion and I can appreciate that. I do hope to discuss this deck further, you have been very helpful to me and I appreciate it. If we do keep this primer, I would enjoy the help about the white splash because I agree, it is a viable option that should be known. This would prevent people from having to read the entire thread over again. Either way, no hard feelings, just 2 magic players talking, right?
about white splash-
i also think you should include some white splash and doran sui lists as well, since we've been directed to the eva thread for such discusion. i had some prettty good results with a doran sui deck i posted in the other tread a month or so ago.
I would love to, but can't seem to find any articles on the web about splashing white. I'll browse through the archived primer and see what keypoints still seem viable and update the OP. I am also updating the matchup analysis with more detail about how to fend off the unfavorable matchups.
If this thread DOES get deleted, I would at least like to see the OP in the old massively updated. I think I provided this primer with alot of information, and new choices. I'd hate to see it go, but understand if it does.
EDIT: I added a short section of Splashing White, but would like to make it a bit more detailed. Are there any key points, and/or cards I missed. I've never played Eva Green with a White splash before so any insight would be great. thanks
Either way, no hard feelings, just 2 magic players talking, right?
Right. Just remember: I may be overly blunt at times, but take no offense, i never mean anything by it. I'm also usually pretty sleep-deprived when I'm on here, so that can't be helping.
I would love to, but can't seem to find any articles on the web about splashing white. I'll browse through the archived primer and see what keypoints still seem viable and update the OP.
splashing white in Eva is usually just for vindicate. sometimes for a few dorans, but too much of both will clog up your 3 drop slot (and neigther can be cast of a dark rit). once you start adding things like sword and path, you're moving away from a tempo/sui deck and more tword a rock deck. also, there would be no need to run windswept heaths, as you would NEVER run a basic plains, therefore no need to search one out. all of your black fetches and duals are fine.
edit:
Vendetta looks like a cool new card for this deck. it's the suicide version of swords! =D
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Right. Just remember: I may be overly blunt at times, but take no offense, i never mean anything by it. I'm also usually pretty sleep-deprived when I'm on here, so that can't be helping.
It's all good man, I usually work from 1am-9am, so I know what you mean by sleep deprived.
splashing white in Eva is usually just for vindicate. sometimes for a few dorans, but too much of both will clog up your 3 drop slot (and neigther can be cast of a dark rit). once you start adding things like sword and path, you're moving away from a tempo/sui deck and more tword a rock deck. also, there would be no need to run windswept heaths, as you would NEVER run a basic plains, therefore no need to search one out. all of your black fetches and duals are fine.
edit:
Vendetta looks like a cool new card for this deck. it's the suicide version of swords! =D
Thanks man, I kinda figured about the single plains. I believe that a single forest is needed no matter what the build, but I did not think about the Windswept Heath. I'll fix that now, thanks man. Like I said, I'm still learning, but am learning/enjoying every minute of the process. Thanks.
About Vendetta, yea, it looks like a potentially great card. I can't wait to playtest with Vendetta and Inquisition of Kozilek.
To be completely honest, between work and band practice and playing/preparing for shows I don't get to play as much as I'd like. However, although I don't go to any big tournaments, my friends and I have our only little tournaments (just for bragging rights, really). It's only like 10-12 people, but everyone there has been playing for years. I'm actually one of the newest people in my group to legacy. I've been playing casual for like 9 or 10 years and only legacy for about a year and half. I'm doing my homework though,
I know you aren't too convinced that we need a new primer, but I DO appreciate your help in making this one as useful as possible.
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Decks
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
I only splash white for Vindicate, and it feels even more "Eva" than the green version. 4 more LD spells and removal that can hit anything very much fits the deck.
My LD package now consists of:
4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
(and the occassional Hymning lands)
I agree that if you include too many things like a playset of swords, Dorans, and Kitchen Finks that it turns into a rock deck. I still think, however, that a white splash for Vindicate suits the deck very well.
I only splash white for Vindicate, and it feels even more "Eva" than the green version. 4 more LD spells and removal that can hit anything very much fits the deck.
My LD package now consists of:
4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
(and the occassional Hymning lands)
I agree that if you include too many things like a playset of swords, Dorans, and Kitchen Finks that it turns into a rock deck. I still think, however, that a white splash for Vindicate suits the deck very well.
Very nice man. If I had the money to fork over at the moment, I'd definitely invest in Scrubland and Vindicate. But I'm saving up for more important things at the moment. Have you had any trouble with your mana-fixing? Or does it usually run smoothly?
EDIT: Just to start another side discussion in addition to the white splash convo, here's my current deck list. (although the white splash greatly interests me, this is what I have available at the moment):
If I were to splash white, this is the list I'd be interested in running. I do plan on saving up for Scrubland and Vindicate eventually, so I guess it's okay to have a list ready, lol.
Vendetta looks like a cool new card for this deck. it's the suicide version of swords! =D
Guys, Vendetta has been around since Mercadian Masque.
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
@Avatar: It's pretty easy to get the mana you need, even against Wasteland decks (which is lots of the decks out there). The playstyle of Eva Green is very resilient to opposing Wastelands, and Wasteland in generally is not very effective against us if you know how to fetch for lands. I would say that it has a huge disadvantage against Blood Moon effects compared to regular Eva, but that's about it. I would definitely suggest people at least playtest the white splash unless their meta has an unusual amount of Bloodmoons.
@Avatar: It's pretty easy to get the mana you need, even against Wasteland decks (which is lots of the decks out there). The playstyle of Eva Green is very resilient to opposing Wastelands, and Wasteland in generally is not very effective against us if you know how to fetch for lands. I would say that it has a huge disadvantage against Blood Moon effects compared to regular Eva, but that's about it. I would definitely suggest people at least playtest the white splash unless their meta has an unusual amount of Bloodmoons.
I am definitely interested in splashing for white. I am just saving up for a new guitar cabinet/amp at the moment. What do you think of the list I posted that splashed white? I like the idea of running Vindicate as a 3-4 of. I will definitely save up for it them and Scrubland.
EDIT:
Until I can afford the white splash, I'm trying to make room into my main deck for 2 Inquisition of Kozilek so I can playtest it, but don't know what to take out. My main choices are Reanimate and the Top. I really like the one copy of Reanimate as it has helped me on several occasions (especially after I've popped the Deed) and the top has really been a decent supported believe it or not in this deck. I don't mind taking it out, but I want to make sure it's for something worthwhile, if that makes sense.
@Avatar: I like your white splash list a lot; it looks a lot like mine. The only thing I do differently for my manabase is that I play 8 fetches and 3 Swamps instead of your 7 fetches and 4 Swamps. I find that 11 sources of green and white is probably the right number, but that's just my opinion.
@ Avatar:
Might I suggest reevaluating the purpose of Reanimate and Top... Reanimate is a dead card on turn one, and Top doesn't advance your tempo plans at all. That's why I don't play them. On paper they're techy, but in practice I'd rather be disrupting my opponent... I've got one Inquisition in as my 5th Thoughtseize right now (thinking about cutting for two), but I've been neglecting the deck this weekend in favor of sealed pre-release and welcoming some acquaintances into the vintage fold...
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I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
From my experience, splashing white in Eva Green is not a great idea in today's meta. I piloted a variant w/ 4 swords + 3 vindicates + 4 scrubs, and was constantly having tempo/mana issues against opposing LD package in the form of Stifle and Wasteland.
In addition, at least in my meta in which White Stax, 43 Lands, CT-Prog, Merfolk, and ANT runs rampant, you will almost never get to use Vindicate, and if so, it will never be used for LD since your Wastelands + Sinkholes are normally more than sufficient and easier to cast, and by the time you muster the 3 mana to cast it, threats will already be on the table for LD to make much of a difference.
On the other hand, from all accounts I've always wished I had been holding a Maelstrom Pulse instead, which serves the same purpose and hits double Vials and Goyfs, even if it also kills your own.
This is the list I am referring to/ piloted:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Vampire Nighthawk
--
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
--
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
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And this is the list I am currently running:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
--
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Reanimate
3 Maelstrom Pulse
--
3 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
6 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
As you may have noticed, BG Eva is much more resilient than BGW Eva. Being able to run 7 basic lands pays off so much against Stifle/Wasteland package, and ensures a consistent/explosive tempo, which is the beauty of Eva Green.
Please share your comments and hopefully we can get a discussion going -- because believe me, I really want to make BGW Eva work since I just had to buy the Scrubs (~$130) and dont see myself using them anywhere else.
From my experience, splashing white in Eva Green is not a great idea in today's meta. I piloted a variant w/ 4 swords + 3 vindicates + 4 scrubs, and was constantly having tempo/mana issues against opposing LD package in the form of Stifle and Wasteland.
In addition, at least in my meta in which White Stax, 43 Lands, CT-Prog, Merfolk, and ANT runs rampant, you will almost never get to use Vindicate, and if so, it will never be used for LD since your Wastelands + Sinkholes are normally more than sufficient and easier to cast, and by the time you muster the 3 mana to cast it, threats will already be on the table for LD to make much of a difference.
On the other hand, from all accounts I've always wished I had been holding a Maelstrom Pulse instead, which serves the same purpose and hits double Vials and Goyfs, even if it also kills your own.
This is the list I am referring to/ piloted:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Vampire Nighthawk
--
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
--
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
----------------------------------------------
And this is the list I am currently running:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
--
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Reanimate
3 Maelstrom Pulse
--
3 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
6 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
As you may have noticed, BG Eva is much more resilient than BGW Eva. Being able to run 7 basic lands pays off so much against Stifle/Wasteland package, and ensures a consistent/explosive tempo, which is the beauty of Eva Green.
Please share your comments and hopefully we can get a discussion going -- because believe me, I really want to make BGW Eva work since I just had to buy the Scrubs (~$130) and dont see myself using them anywhere else.
With the white splash I think the problem could have been that you only ran 1basic swamp, where the builds I've seen run 3+ basic swamps. Plus, although I've never run a BGW version, I've been advised by both Popeye79 and Patrunkenphat7 that while Swords is a great card, if you splash too much of one color it can run the risk of being too much and unstable.
I can't back that up with personal experience, but I value their opinion too much to deny the information.
@ Patrunkenphat7 - I will definitely being saving up for those scrubland and vindicates. I'll admit, at first I was worried about the mana base being too fragile, but I think it's worth giving a shot. At the very least, if I don't like the build, I'll have some cards that are useful elsewhere.
@ Keiichi_the_Otaku - I see your point, tempo does play a big part in this deck. I'll take out SDT and Reanimate for the 2 Inquistions. At least until I get a chance to snag those Scrublands and Vindicates.
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UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
get the other cards for the deck first. splashing white is not necessary at all, and i'm not alltogether sure it's a step in the right direction. i have had some sucess with a doran sui list, but again, it's not neccessay. if you're on a budget, get the basic staples for b/g first.
i was facinated with not only the added LD, but with being able to play goyf, stalker AND doran in the same deck. one or two was bound to stick, and ended games quickly (i won a few tournys this way), but there's always a trade off for something like that. i didn't play it long enough to know for sure.. but i do remember not likeing the curve, becasue doran was battling vindicate in the 3-drop slot. i only played the splash for about a month if i remember correctly (i like to change things up almost every week at least a bit, so i can throw off my opponents).
if i play it again, i think i'll try it with just vindicate. of course that means no more fetching my miser murmuring bosk! also, i was still playing snuff outs even when splashing white, because the tempo is just insane.
about top- horrible in this deck. does nothing when it hits play, and is a mana-sink when you should be spending that mana in more productive ways.
about the new duress/thoutseize... i admitt to not having playtested with it yet, but i would only recomend this card in a heavy agro meta, and possibly not at all for larger tournaments. against goblins, merfolk, zoo, a ton of decks i'm sure its nuts. but what about 43 lands? what about team american when they're holding stalker and force? what about beltcher holding empty the warrens or charbeltcher? what about dutch stax and you see elspeth, moat, ect. i am absolutly sure that it is a great card and will see lots of play. i'm just advising to run more in small metas full of agro, and less in larger metas and ones that are more controlling. even if i'm faceing c.top.dec, i'd much rather pull his force of will than a gofy, pridemage or brainstorm (assuming i'm wanting to lay my own stalker)... so for me, i still like duress as thoughtseize 5-6.
about reanimate... i think a miser is perfectly fine if you can find room. i've even seen some winning lists run 2. something i'm unclear about though, is why i've seen them in the board on occation. when would you BOARD them in? if someone could clear that up for me i might sleep better at night.
about 1 basic forest... just because we "can" do it now, doesn't mean you "should". what you "should" do, is look at your meta. if there's a lot of LD, then do it. If not, then don't. Becasue i guarentee there will be times you mulligan a perfectly fine hand due to that forest. theres a reason that decks like canadian thresh and team america run zero basics.. they can't chance the tempo loss, in a tempo driven deck.
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
about 1 basic forest... just because we "can" do it now, doesn't mean you "should". what you "should" do, is look at your meta. if there's a lot of LD, then do it. If not, then don't. Becasue i guarentee there will be times you mulligan a perfectly fine hand due to that forest. theres a reason that decks like canadian thresh and team america run zero basics.. they can't chance the tempo loss, in a tempo driven deck.
Yea, I'm gonna try it out with 4 Marsh Flats and 4 Verdant Catacombs and see how I like it. I will definitely be sticking with BG Eva Green until I get everything. Luckily my friends know I am planning on buying the cards so they don't mind playing proxies to allow each other to playtest. I'm like 90% done the deck though. If it weren't for bills and gas expenses I'd be done by now, lol. Such is life.
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UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Legacy’s Beast
Before I begin I’d like to properly extend my thanks to UDemon, for his great job on the old Eva Green Primer. He did a great job, and I’m happy to be the one to update such a great archetype. Also, I’d like to include everyone who has been following the Eva Green thread and has helped in sharing their ideas and playtesting which has kept my interest in Eva Green alive. That being said, if there is anything that I may have missed, or if something new comes up please feel free to let me know, and I will do my best to keep this original post up to date as best as possible. Now, on to the Primer…
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Ever since the days of Legacy began, mono-black suicide has been a deck that offers a great mixture of disruption (both field and hand) and an aggro-type offense. With the printing of Tarmogoyf in Future Sight, mono-black suicide could no longer resist the splash of G. Now, we have an already dangerous deck packed with the best tempo based disruption cards available being back up by one of the best beaters in Legacy. Thus, Eva Green was created. The deck itself is named after the actress who in the 2006 Bond film, "Casino Royale", played a character who committed suicide in the end.
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Playing The Deck: by Dan Signorini and Anwar Ahmad.
After reading this article I came to the conclusion that these guys explain the deck better than I ever could.
You can find the article in it's entirety here
One thing you need to remember when you play Eva Green is that you are trying to hamper your opponent's strategy while accelerating your own. You need to hammer your opponent hard and fast in order to successfully execute your strategy. Your opening seven cards are a lot more important than those of other decks that have manipulation or card drawing ability. The game will often be decided with the decisions you make in the first few turns. A few things to consider about your opening seven:
- Do I have two permanent Black sources, or enough of a fast start with Dark Ritual(s)?
- Does my hand represent a good mixture of threats and disruption?
- Do I have access to Green mana?
If you answer No to any of these questions, you probably want to consider taking a mulligan.
Do not be afraid to mulligan aggressively with Eva Green. This deck will not win most games by having more cards in its hand than its opponent. The ability to play more of your cards faster than your opponent is the objective. Limit your opponent’s options while expanding your own, and take advantage of the time to win while your opponent is unable to do anything in the window that you have given yourself. Having seven cards in hand is not going to do your opponent any good if they can’t cast any of them, or if they are dead before they can start to execute their own strategy.
Do as much as possible on any given turn. You do not want to play reactively. Make your opponent answer your threats and keep on swinging if they are unable to. Play your disruption intelligently and use your life total as a resource. Sometimes using that Snuff Out on a Birds of Paradise is a very good call when you have a Sinkhole or Wasteland to back it up. Sometimes it is not the best idea, for example when a Thoughtseize reveals a mana heavy hand with little to no threats or blockers. Determining which of your opponent’s resources is in short supply is the first step in making the most of your disruption. Playing Eva Green properly takes some practice, but the deck is very powerful and its disruptive strategy is intriguing.
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Creatures:
Tarmogoyf – he’s the whole reason mono-black suicide evolved into Eva Green. One of the best beaters in the format. Who wouldn’t want such a powerful beater for only 1G? No debate about it. Run 4.
Tombstalker – One word can describe this guy…BEASTLY. He is a 5/5 flyer for a measly BB. It may conflict your Tarmogoyfs power/toughness at times, but with a deck that holds tons of Instants, Sorceries, Fetchlands, etc. This shouldn’t stop you from running him. I suggest running 2-3. Although I have seen decks run a playset. Find what fits you best, and stick with it, but definitely run him.
Nantuko Shade – a great mid-game beater. Turns that top-deck Dark Ritual into a Giant Growth. It can go toe to toe with most creatures in legacy. Like Tombstalker, I run 3, although some decks run 4. New lists have taken this beater out. The reason for that is the running of dark confidants. With dark confidant, you will be playing spells each turn, therefore, you won't have the mana for a mana-sinking creature.
Hypnotic Specter – No doubt a legend in the game. A 2/2 flyer with an added bonus. A great turn 1 drop with the assistance of Dark Ritual. Some people prefer Vampire Nighthawk for the added pseudo-removal, although running the Hyppie is nothing to frown upon. Definitely a 4 of.
Vampire Nighthawk - A new contender to the deck. Offers pseudo-removal and extra toughness can be a help as well. Can also help with cancelling out the life loss from fetches and Thoughtseize. Not a bad choice, and is definitely worth playtesting.
Gatekeeper of Malakir – another new contender in the deck. I’ve playtested this guy as a 2-of. Although he may not be as potentially strong as the rest of the deck, he is still a viable option, depending upon your build. I wouldn’t suggest him as anything more than a 2-of, if any.
The Debatable Bob:
Dark Confidant is probably one of the most debatable cards in current Eva Green lists. I am against running him due to the huge life loss we already face. Yes, card advantage is important, but it is quite a risk when running Tombstalker. If you run Sensei's Divining Top perhaps it’s a maybe. Some decks have reported success while running the Confidant, so I will not completely dismiss this card. But it is something to rethink, depending upon how you build your deck. (Any further results, experience playing this card, would be greatly appreciated.)
Creatures That Didn’t Make The Cut:
Abyssal Persecutor - This is has potential to be a beast in Legacy, just not in Eva Green. Tombstalker will always be the beast of the deck as he is cheap, strong and doesn’t require a deck to be built around him. I’m not knocking the Persecutor, but he belongs in Pox builds if anywhere. The deck would become much too fragile if you added Persecutor, because you have to build your deck around him. This means choosing which cards to take out to add in your Cabal Therapy, Innocent Blood, etc. All cards that belong in a Pox deck if anywhere. If ANYONE has results that say otherwise, please let me know. I am just speaking from points made in the old Primer, personal experience and general points that are obvious to spot.
Phyrexian Negator - used to be a good card for the deck, but has been wildly outclassed since the inclusion of Tarmogoyf. Some lists still try him out, but I still consider this card to be obsolete now.
Nyxathid – Although a decent card, it just feels like a wasted slot for this deck. Again, if anyone has any positive experience with this card in Eva Green, feel free to correct me.
Putrid Leech – A couple things wrong with this card. Adds too much to our already suicide tendencies. Also, although it is an early game creature, I think most of us would agree that having BB available turn 2 is more important than having GB available. I know Bayou is at our disposal, but I still think that there are better cards than this guy. He was a great thought, but quickly proved to be obsolete. Sorry little guy!
Glissa, the Traitor - Deathtouch, first strike. Good card especially equipped with a umezawa's jitte. The problem is pulling the double Green mana. Not so easy. Also, what artifact are you going to revive anyways?
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Spells:
Thoughtseize – possibly one of the best turn one drops you can find in a black deck. Without a Ritual in hand.
Hymn to Tourach – most people would agree that this card is the best discard card in MTG. Has the ability to hit lands and when matched with a Turn 1 Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, you gain some serious control early on.
Snuff Out – Great FREE spell. Sure 4 life may seem like a lot to pay for destroying a NON-black creature, but it can definitely be a defining spell at times. Smother is another alternative.
Smother – Some choose this card over Snuff Out. I prefer it myself, although Snuff Out is a top choice amongst most players. Diabolic Edict is another option I’ve seen in some lists.
Sinkhole – Not much is needed to say here. It’s ability to hit basics is definitely a bonus. When used with Wasteland, you have a devastating Land Destruction package here. UPDATE - this card is kinda dated, especially with all the vial decks out there. This is by far the weakest card in the deck. There is current testing to find a replacement over this slot.
Dark Ritual – BBB for B at instant speed? Sounds like a keeper to me. This card provides us with great turn 1 plays is never a dead card mid or late-game when a Nantuko Shade is on the field. Auto include.
Maelstrom Pulse – Another reason for the splash. I have seen some debate of this card. It’s really a “pick your preference” card. Some points have been made that Snuff Out/Smother and/or a sided in Krosan Grip could take care of anything you need, but this is still a card worth mentioning.
Pernicious Deed – Argued that it is too slow, but I’ve recently maindecked this over Maelstrom Pulse and have had great success. Plus, once popped, it adds another +1/+1 to your Tarmogoyf, being the only enchantment in the deck.
Seal of Primordium – a debatable card. Has the bonus of being an enchantment which adds to our Goyf’s.
Inquisition of Kozilek – Much speculation over this new gem. I personally believe it can replace Duress and run alongside Thoughtseize, but I doubt it will ever replace Thoughtseize. However, once thoroughly playtested I will update this.
Vendetta - some more cheap removal.
Go For Throat - A new creature removal that targets black creatures. A meta choice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mana-base:
Wasteland – A Legacy staple. As stated above, when run with a playset of Sinkholes, you have a great LD package and can bring decks to a screeching halt.
Bayou – Provides you with that much desired splash. Most decks nowadays are seen running 4 alongside a single Forest to avoid being screwed by those nasty opposing Wastelands.
Polluted Delta/Bloodstained Mire – Helps you search out your Bayous and basic Swamps. Thins out your deck, pumps your Tarmogoyf and can be used to Delve out an early Tombstalker.
Verdant Catacombs – for decks that run that single Forest mentioned above.
Swamp – Given
Forest – make room for a single one of these. You’ll be thanking me if your opponent manages to shut down your Bayous.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Other Cards To Think About:
Sensei's Divining Top – Makes running Bob somewhat justified. Not completely necessary, but always a gem to have if you draw it. Completely optional.
Reanimate – I personally run a single copy of this and wouldn’t advise running anymore than that if you run them at all. Provides a great turn 2 after snagging a great off a turn 1 Thoughtseize. Doesn’t hurt late game either.
Ghastly Demise – Not really seen in many lists, but if you’re on a budget, something you may want to look into.
Duress – Budget version of Thoughtseize.
Unearth – Decent card to return your Goyf or you can cycle it for the extra card draw.
Blackmail – another discard spell that can possibly hit lands. Completely optional.
Umezawa's Jitte - This card has won me games. However, he is slow to equip. however with the running of dark confidants in the newest playlist, I think jitte could help minimize life loss. Dark confidants also help you draw the necessary mana to cast and equip on the same turn.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sideboard Options:
Pithing Needle – optional card. Can be the difference in some games, although it’s not used in all sideboards. I personally never leave home without them
Tormod's Crypt – I’ve seen some lists run this in the sideboard. I prefer the Leyline but I believe it’s been used enough to earn a spot in this Primer.
Perish – Can clear a field, and get rid of those nasty little creatures that may be in your way. (thanks to Popeye79 for changing my views on this card)
Engineered Plague – evens the playing field against tribal aggro decks. Merfolk, Goblins, Elves beware…Don't leave home without it.
Leyline of the Void - Keeps your opponents graveyard empty for free. Helps prevent a turn 2 Iona.
Umezawa’s Jitte – a debatable card that can help against aggro match-ups. It’s not seen as universal sideboard card. I personally believe that it is meta-game dependant. Solution? Playtest it and see what feels right.
Krosan Grip – another reason to splash green. Provides the ability to get rid of those nasty Moat and Trinisphere, etc.
Extirpate – a universally known sideboard card that serves many purposes.
Choke – Just a solid card. I see this in a number of sideboards, but don’t run it myself. I don’t doubt it’s importance though. UPDATE - This card is not as useful as before, especially with all the vial decks out there
Phyrexian Revoker - The new pithing needle. Cannot target manlands, but its a creature and a blocker.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sample Decklist:
The basic core of Eva Green is essentially the same:
3 Polluted Delta/Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacboms
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
5 Swamp
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
Some Notes:
I’ve seen some users (myself included) mention that they were having trouble drawing into land and were starting to question whether their land count was to blame. I have thoroughly playtesting with this idea by going to 22 land. I can safely say that 21 land is your best bet. It could be the shuffling, or just the bad luck of the draw. If it becomes a consistent problem, I may suggest running Sensei's Divining Top to help your problems, but I don’t think it’s completely necessary.
Most of those “Slots of Choice” are usually directed towards disruption and/or targeted removal. Snuff Out, Smother, Diabolic Edict, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Splashing White: Some Eva Green decks have evolved/branched out into the options that Scrubland offers us. More disruption is offered in the form of Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile and Vindicate.
Be aware though, that when you start running more cards requiring W, the more fragile the deck can be come. Mainly the mana-base. However, Vindicate, when run alongside Sinkhole and Wasteland, offers a devastating land denial package that can leave your opponent quivering.
Sample Decklist (provided by Patrunkenphat7):
2 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
2 Smother
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Vindicate
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
Decklist that placed 1st out of 51 on January 22, 2011
2x Tombstalker
2x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Tarmogoyf
Instants
2x Smother
2x Snuff Out
4x Dark Ritual
Sorceries
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Thoughtseize
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Engineered Plague
Land
1x Forest
1x Marsh Flats
3x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
7x Swamp
4x Krosan Grip
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Duress
1x Dark Confidant
1x Engineered Plague
1x Pernicious Deed
- Notice how he runs 20 lands, 2 snuff out, 2 tombstalker, only running 5 fetchlands. This is to minimize the exposure to Dark Confidant. With Dark Confidant, you do not need to run that many lands as he well help you get lands into your hand each turn. Personally, I playtested this deck by running 2 tombstalker. I think out of the 30 or so hands that i played, I ate tombstalker twice. I think the odds are pretty good.
His engineered plague maindeck is used as removal.
Between Force of Will, Daze, Swords to Plowshares and Snuff Out it can be difficult to keep creatures in play so dropping your threats and being able to keep them in play is a huge difference maker. To win this “creature war” you can use a Thoughtseize or Duress to figure what your opponents options are. Are they planning on dropping an early Counterbalance or are they planning dropping an early goyf to put you on the defensive? This information can you help you plan out your disruption for that game. Choke is a great sideboard card for this matchup.
UGR Thrash (favorable): The main difference between this matchup and 5 Color is that Thrash utilizes resource denial more than Counterbalance. Stifle, Wasteland, Daze, Force of Will and Spell Snare are probably your biggest worries in this deck. They can counter and deny lands just like you can. Playing on their level could be a good strategy. Cards like Sinkhole and Wasteland can slow them down just enough to hammer in your own threats. With so much disruption on both sides it’s possible for one side to get completely blown out with no lands or no relevant spells left to play. Tombstalker can be a problem for them in the late game. Pulling Choke from the board is a good call on your part.
Goblins (very favorable): This is a game highly in our favor. Snuff out is a good answer to turn one lackey and dropping a Tarmogoyf just ruins their day. Don't play shade without at least one swamp untapped simply in case they drop a Mogg Fanatic. Specter and Tombstalker are your best friends here. Don't let them get too much board position and you should be good. Plagues from the board make this match even better post-board.
Dredge (very unfavorable): This is a very bad match-up for us. We need to race them, which is hard in a lot of cases. Also, our discard could potentially be in their favor. Snuffing out your own creature to get rid of a bridge is sometimes needed. Leylines and plagues come in against them.
Combo: (favorable): Most of the current combo is in our favor. We have enough disruption of all kinds (seize, sinkhole, hymn, wasteland, hypnotic specter, etc) to hold our own against combo. Nothing in the sideboard helps against this match-up, but you shouldn't need to worry too much.
Elves (slightly unfavorable): Elves have something that goblins don't and this is mana acceleration. Letting them get too many elves early on is a very bad thing. I tend to keep a sinkhole and snuff out for first turn Forest > Mana elf. For having 3 mana for an elf player on turn 2 is a bad thing for us.
Aggro Loam (unfavorable): We basically need to race them and get our disruption to hit fast. Usually they stall or beat us down with their bigger creatures and have more ways to kill us than we can handle or race (such as seismic assault). The best strategy is to exploit the early game especially via Dark Ritual. Getting multiple creatures into play can overwhelm Aggro Loam in the early game. Use Snuff Out to steal tempo by taking down a creature that your opponent spent his whole turn playing.
Post-board, use Leyline of the Void to control the size of your opponent's creatures and prevent Life from the Loam recursion. Jitte can accelerate your clock and act as additional removal in addition to Snuff Out. A difficult matchup, but more than winnable given the right strategy and the right sideboard.
Stax (slightly favorable): This basically comes down to whoever plays first. A first turn 3sphere ruins our day and makes ritual useless. Hypnotic specter and Tombstalker can help us over moat, but STPs aren't our best friends.
Burn (unfavorable): With 8 fetches + Thoughtseize, burn becomes too much to handle. We need a quick Goyf or Tombstalker to even stand a chance against burn. Definitely not what you want to play against.
Landstill (favorable): Four color landstill tends to be alot easier as tombstalker cannot be killed by pernicious deed, and their manabase is so disruptable. Blue/white landstill however runs wrath of god in addition to swords to plowshares, and has a much more stable manabase. Any way you slice it your goal here is to disrupt them and drop a huge threat, repeating as necessary. (this information is taken from the Source seeing as I have never played against Landstill)
Merfolk (favorable): Game 1 I personally had some trouble with it, as they were rather quick and controlling. However, a post board Choke can be Good Game, especially when paired with Engineered Plague. The key to fighting merfolk is to break the standstill asap. Fetch basic lands to avoid their wastelands Pithing needle is not really needed because merfolk tends to run out of steam. The best idea is to cast an instant after their declare their end of turn to make them discard.
Pox (slightly favorable): Although they have just as much as disruption as we do, we are faster and have a more offense on our side. I personally believe that it's a more even match-up and can possibly depend on the opening hand. In the end, when they run out of steam we still have creatures beating face. Don't be mistaken though. When going into a match-up versus a well built Pox deck, it can be a good game. (I only have played a couple games against Pox, but if anyone was more insight on Eva Green vs Pox that'd be helpful. Thanks)
Enchantress (favorable): We have enough fast disruption to take control early on. An early Elephant Grass can slow us down, but if we take out their resources with our LD package we can regain the upperhand. Early Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach are great here. Grabbing their Argothian Enchantress can devastate them and ruin their game plan. Moat can stall us, but nothing more. Once we lay down a Tombstalker, Moat becomes nothing but an amusement for us. From my personal experience, this match up shouldn't be under estimated, as if given the chance, they can come back and surprise us. Just lay down your disruption package and keep the heat on and you shouldn't really have too much of a problem.
Deadguy Ale (unfavorable) Game 1 you will most likely lose. You will most likely be playing snuff outs, which cannot target their abyssal persecutors. This is a huge problem, since they will be dictating the board presence. Game 2, you take out the snuff out, sinkholes. Side in hate cards like maelstrom pulse or the new card Go For The Throat. Even then, the matchup is still unfavorable since they have too many removals against your very limited creature base. They have 4 vindicates, 4 swords to plowshares, some run diabolic edicts, and some with innocent blood. That is just too many removal. Also with bitterblossom in play, you will have a very difficult time attacking them each turn. You must put in pernicious deed and open the door for your tombstalker to attack. Even then, they have lots of removal against you. The new version now runs Mirran Crusader, mother of runes, aether vials, stoneforge mystics. This deck can be overwhelming with lots of protection against your spells. Pernicious deed is your best friend here. Krosan Grips, maelstrom pulses are a MUST.
The Gate (unfavorable) - The presence of bitterblossom and a bunch of removals is a huge problem. Add in the equipments and you got a tough, tough road against you. Use Krosan Grips against their bitterblossoms, swords, and jitte. power your way through with goyf. Other than that, they have lots of chump blockers and removals to stop you. Not an easy deck to fight. Try to disrupt their hand and get the bitterblossoms, swords and jitte. It will help a lot. Eventually this matchup will go into top deck mode for both players. Its really who has the stronger creatures out at this point. But with 4 abyssals and 9 removals, its HARD.
I hope this is more up-to-date and that if there is anything I missed please chime in and I will add it in. Thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT:
> Added a "Playing The Deck" section.
> Started a "Splashing White" section.
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
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Its more like choose 4 cards for removal and then you have 3 utility/meta slots.
Removal Consists of (but isnt limited to)
Which one(s) you choose depends greatly on your meta.
Good primer btw
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
Because I didn't want to strictly list my personal decklist, I figure I'd stick with the basic beaters of Eva Green and let those who wish to tamper with it, do so accordingly. I see your point though.
@ Throst54 - point taken, I'll fix that in a minute. Thanks for pointing that out.
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
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did you ask Cabal Chan for permission?
it's one of my favorite sideboard cards and i won't leave home with out it. I don't understand why you're iffy at all about it, unless you're in a severly under-developed meta.
kills: PROGENITUS!!!, Wild nectal, Noble heirarch, Quasi pridemage, Rhox warmonk, Knight of the reliquary, Terravore, and yes- GOYF! and much more.
Just hold your goyf back, play the 3mana damnation, then drop goyf and win.
I play 3 in my side
That he did.
I figured that a fresh start wouldn't be bad, since the other thread was quite lengthy.
Edit: If a new thread is that disruptive, I can bring the older one back and edit/update the OP.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10800035#post10800035
First off, calm down man, lol. I know it's very similiar to the old Eva Green Primer, but the old OP seemed out of date. So I asked Cabal if I could rewrite/update the primer.
Also, I understand that Perish is a good card. My personal opinion shouldn't seem like a personal attack to your meta. I simply stated that I wasn't crazy about it, but still acknowledge it as a sideboard card. That's what I added it in there, lol.
Is there anything I might have missed? I will stay on top of this Primer as often as I can, unless Cabal_Chan decides to bring back the other one.
EDIT:
I personally haven't tried it, but if someone has experience running it with success I will be glad to throw it in the OP.
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Visit Maelstrom Graphics for awesome signatures and avatars
Would you mind posting your list to help get a discussion going?
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Visit Maelstrom Graphics for awesome signatures and avatars
Here's my current white-splash list for referrence:
2 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
2 Smother
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Vindicate
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Choke
3 Engineered Plague
@Avatar: Great OP!
calm down? i am calm. i wasn't mad or anything, and i refuse to type "lol" after everything just so people know i'm not mad. thats just me.
your primers says you are "iffy" about perish, you're only including it because you've seen other people run it. "iffy" to me, says- you're not sure.. need more info. thats what i was attempting to offer. perish is a great card in the format right now, end of story. it shouldn't be "iffy", and shouldn't be described as such in a primer.
about that....
i just don't feel that makeing a whole new thread is a good idea. if someone wants to pick up the deck and learn about it, they're going to read pretty much the entire thread to gain valuble insight into how the deck works, sideboard tech, cards that have been tested, ect.
i've even seen many people answer a new person's question "read the thread, it's been discussed many times". and i kind of agree with that. if you really want to learn the deck, take the time and effort to learn... read. thats what i do everytime i want to pick up a new deck seriously.
don't you get tired of answering the same questions over and over again? this will just get worse if the old thread gets archived.
you did a fine job on the primer, and i applaud your enthusiasm, i just don't agree with it's existance. and i'm actually pretty surprised you made it in the first place.. how much tourny experience can you possible have with this deck to qualify you to make a primer or give advice?.....
it just seems odd that a few months ago (Ded 30th to be exact) you first came to the eva thread saying your new to the deck and don't have the cards yet.. then you give up tring and shortly after move to pox, then all of a sudden you're back to eva, and this time you're going to make a whole new primer, that's not needed, for a deck you barely learned how to play a few months ago and may not even have the cards, so highly unlikely you even played in a tourny of any sort with it? really?
i'm not tring to be an ass, and i truely am sorry if i'm offending you here... i've enjoyed discussing the deck with you in the past and hope to continue to in the future (i've been takeing a break from eva for the past month or so, but eva's been my primary deck for a long while, and still my favorite). so....
@ Cabal Chan- if this is up to debate, or vote, or anything.... personally, i'd like you to just update the original thread/primer with some new card choices, and merge the two threads, or delete this one, or whatever. you get the picture.
but hey, this is just one mans opinion.
about white splash-
i also think you should include some white splash and doran sui lists as well, since we've been directed to the eva thread for such discusion. i had some prettty good results with a doran sui deck i posted in the other tread a month or so ago.
fair enough.
Which is why I thanked your for explaining to my why it is such a great card. I don't claim to know everything about the deck or about legacy in general. The old thread was a learning experience for me and I am still learning. Which is why I am accepting and asking peoples knowledge to make this primer better and more informative. That way, newer people don't have to read through 58+ pages of debates about a card. They can simply read the primer, create their decklist and happily join the discussion.
You're right I am very new to this deck. Again, I never claimed to be an expert. In fact YOU are one of the people (of many) who has helped me learn about this deck. I still have a lot to learn and improve on. I don't go to tournaments that often, but would like to. So I did research, from peoples advice here, to the source, to starcitygames.com to random articles I googled and felt was a valid source of information. I didn't just copy and paste the whole primer that UDemon did. I did do his Match Up analysis, but am in the process of going into more "indepth" detail about those matchups and more as I read more about them.
I don't think I should be forced to play a tourney to be considered a decent magic player and be able to write a primer. Yes, I agree it helps and would make this primer better but I would like to think that people are more worried about the card choices and matchups. Which I believe I provided? Other than Perish, is there anything else on this primer I have mislead you about? If you were a new player to Eva Green, would this provide you with enough information to get the basic idea of what Eva Green is? Isn't that really what matters most here? That it provides enough information to those who are newer? Just my opinion on that.
it's all good man. I'm not offended, you're voicing your opinion and I can appreciate that. I do hope to discuss this deck further, you have been very helpful to me and I appreciate it. If we do keep this primer, I would enjoy the help about the white splash because I agree, it is a viable option that should be known. This would prevent people from having to read the entire thread over again. Either way, no hard feelings, just 2 magic players talking, right?
I would love to, but can't seem to find any articles on the web about splashing white. I'll browse through the archived primer and see what keypoints still seem viable and update the OP. I am also updating the matchup analysis with more detail about how to fend off the unfavorable matchups.
If this thread DOES get deleted, I would at least like to see the OP in the old massively updated. I think I provided this primer with alot of information, and new choices. I'd hate to see it go, but understand if it does.
EDIT: I added a short section of Splashing White, but would like to make it a bit more detailed. Are there any key points, and/or cards I missed. I've never played Eva Green with a White splash before so any insight would be great. thanks
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
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Right. Just remember: I may be overly blunt at times, but take no offense, i never mean anything by it. I'm also usually pretty sleep-deprived when I'm on here, so that can't be helping.
splashing white in Eva is usually just for vindicate. sometimes for a few dorans, but too much of both will clog up your 3 drop slot (and neigther can be cast of a dark rit). once you start adding things like sword and path, you're moving away from a tempo/sui deck and more tword a rock deck. also, there would be no need to run windswept heaths, as you would NEVER run a basic plains, therefore no need to search one out. all of your black fetches and duals are fine.
edit:
Vendetta looks like a cool new card for this deck. it's the suicide version of swords! =D
It's all good man, I usually work from 1am-9am, so I know what you mean by sleep deprived.
Thanks man, I kinda figured about the single plains. I believe that a single forest is needed no matter what the build, but I did not think about the Windswept Heath. I'll fix that now, thanks man. Like I said, I'm still learning, but am learning/enjoying every minute of the process. Thanks.
About Vendetta, yea, it looks like a potentially great card. I can't wait to playtest with Vendetta and Inquisition of Kozilek.
To be completely honest, between work and band practice and playing/preparing for shows I don't get to play as much as I'd like. However, although I don't go to any big tournaments, my friends and I have our only little tournaments (just for bragging rights, really). It's only like 10-12 people, but everyone there has been playing for years. I'm actually one of the newest people in my group to legacy. I've been playing casual for like 9 or 10 years and only legacy for about a year and half. I'm doing my homework though,
I know you aren't too convinced that we need a new primer, but I DO appreciate your help in making this one as useful as possible.
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Visit Maelstrom Graphics for awesome signatures and avatars
My LD package now consists of:
4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
(and the occassional Hymning lands)
I agree that if you include too many things like a playset of swords, Dorans, and Kitchen Finks that it turns into a rock deck. I still think, however, that a white splash for Vindicate suits the deck very well.
Very nice man. If I had the money to fork over at the moment, I'd definitely invest in Scrubland and Vindicate. But I'm saving up for more important things at the moment. Have you had any trouble with your mana-fixing? Or does it usually run smoothly?
EDIT: Just to start another side discussion in addition to the white splash convo, here's my current deck list. (although the white splash greatly interests me, this is what I have available at the moment):
3x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bayou
5x Swamp
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Tombstalker
3x Nantuko Shade
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Reanimate
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Smother
4x Sinkhole
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn To Tourach
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Pithing Needle
3x Extirpate
4x Engineered Plague
4x Leyline of the Void
If I were to splash white, this is the list I'd be interested in running. I do plan on saving up for Scrubland and Vindicate eventually, so I guess it's okay to have a list ready, lol.
3x Scrubland
3x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Swamp
3x Tombstalker
3x Nantuko Shade
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Smother
3x Vindicate
4x Sinkhole
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn To Tourach
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Visit Maelstrom Graphics for awesome signatures and avatars
Guys, Vendetta has been around since Mercadian Masque.
that would be my bad. I'll fix that now. Thanks for pointing that out, lol.
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
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I am definitely interested in splashing for white. I am just saving up for a new guitar cabinet/amp at the moment. What do you think of the list I posted that splashed white? I like the idea of running Vindicate as a 3-4 of. I will definitely save up for it them and Scrubland.
EDIT:
Until I can afford the white splash, I'm trying to make room into my main deck for 2 Inquisition of Kozilek so I can playtest it, but don't know what to take out. My main choices are Reanimate and the Top. I really like the one copy of Reanimate as it has helped me on several occasions (especially after I've popped the Deed) and the top has really been a decent supported believe it or not in this deck. I don't mind taking it out, but I want to make sure it's for something worthwhile, if that makes sense.
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
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Might I suggest reevaluating the purpose of Reanimate and Top... Reanimate is a dead card on turn one, and Top doesn't advance your tempo plans at all. That's why I don't play them. On paper they're techy, but in practice I'd rather be disrupting my opponent... I've got one Inquisition in as my 5th Thoughtseize right now (thinking about cutting for two), but I've been neglecting the deck this weekend in favor of sealed pre-release and welcoming some acquaintances into the vintage fold...
I am John Galt.
In addition, at least in my meta in which White Stax, 43 Lands, CT-Prog, Merfolk, and ANT runs rampant, you will almost never get to use Vindicate, and if so, it will never be used for LD since your Wastelands + Sinkholes are normally more than sufficient and easier to cast, and by the time you muster the 3 mana to cast it, threats will already be on the table for LD to make much of a difference.
On the other hand, from all accounts I've always wished I had been holding a Maelstrom Pulse instead, which serves the same purpose and hits double Vials and Goyfs, even if it also kills your own.
This is the list I am referring to/ piloted:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Vampire Nighthawk
--
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
--
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
----------------------------------------------
And this is the list I am currently running:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
--
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Reanimate
3 Maelstrom Pulse
--
3 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
6 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
As you may have noticed, BG Eva is much more resilient than BGW Eva. Being able to run 7 basic lands pays off so much against Stifle/Wasteland package, and ensures a consistent/explosive tempo, which is the beauty of Eva Green.
Please share your comments and hopefully we can get a discussion going -- because believe me, I really want to make BGW Eva work since I just had to buy the Scrubs (~$130) and dont see myself using them anywhere else.
With the white splash I think the problem could have been that you only ran 1basic swamp, where the builds I've seen run 3+ basic swamps. Plus, although I've never run a BGW version, I've been advised by both Popeye79 and Patrunkenphat7 that while Swords is a great card, if you splash too much of one color it can run the risk of being too much and unstable.
I can't back that up with personal experience, but I value their opinion too much to deny the information.
@ Patrunkenphat7 - I will definitely being saving up for those scrubland and vindicates. I'll admit, at first I was worried about the mana base being too fragile, but I think it's worth giving a shot. At the very least, if I don't like the build, I'll have some cards that are useful elsewhere.
@ Keiichi_the_Otaku - I see your point, tempo does play a big part in this deck. I'll take out SDT and Reanimate for the 2 Inquistions. At least until I get a chance to snag those Scrublands and Vindicates.
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Visit Maelstrom Graphics for awesome signatures and avatars
i was facinated with not only the added LD, but with being able to play goyf, stalker AND doran in the same deck. one or two was bound to stick, and ended games quickly (i won a few tournys this way), but there's always a trade off for something like that. i didn't play it long enough to know for sure.. but i do remember not likeing the curve, becasue doran was battling vindicate in the 3-drop slot. i only played the splash for about a month if i remember correctly (i like to change things up almost every week at least a bit, so i can throw off my opponents).
if i play it again, i think i'll try it with just vindicate. of course that means no more fetching my miser murmuring bosk! also, i was still playing snuff outs even when splashing white, because the tempo is just insane.
about top- horrible in this deck. does nothing when it hits play, and is a mana-sink when you should be spending that mana in more productive ways.
about the new duress/thoutseize... i admitt to not having playtested with it yet, but i would only recomend this card in a heavy agro meta, and possibly not at all for larger tournaments. against goblins, merfolk, zoo, a ton of decks i'm sure its nuts. but what about 43 lands? what about team american when they're holding stalker and force? what about beltcher holding empty the warrens or charbeltcher? what about dutch stax and you see elspeth, moat, ect. i am absolutly sure that it is a great card and will see lots of play. i'm just advising to run more in small metas full of agro, and less in larger metas and ones that are more controlling. even if i'm faceing c.top.dec, i'd much rather pull his force of will than a gofy, pridemage or brainstorm (assuming i'm wanting to lay my own stalker)... so for me, i still like duress as thoughtseize 5-6.
about reanimate... i think a miser is perfectly fine if you can find room. i've even seen some winning lists run 2. something i'm unclear about though, is why i've seen them in the board on occation. when would you BOARD them in? if someone could clear that up for me i might sleep better at night.
about 1 basic forest... just because we "can" do it now, doesn't mean you "should". what you "should" do, is look at your meta. if there's a lot of LD, then do it. If not, then don't. Becasue i guarentee there will be times you mulligan a perfectly fine hand due to that forest. theres a reason that decks like canadian thresh and team america run zero basics.. they can't chance the tempo loss, in a tempo driven deck.
Yea, I'm gonna try it out with 4 Marsh Flats and 4 Verdant Catacombs and see how I like it. I will definitely be sticking with BG Eva Green until I get everything. Luckily my friends know I am planning on buying the cards so they don't mind playing proxies to allow each other to playtest. I'm like 90% done the deck though. If it weren't for bills and gas expenses I'd be done by now, lol. Such is life.
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Visit Maelstrom Graphics for awesome signatures and avatars