The title of the thread is specifically UWx miracles and you are not running white which is quite an essential color in this type of deck. Since you are missing out on some of the best control elements like Swords to plowshares and terminus and ofcourse one of the best wincons: Entreat the angels. UWx miracle control isn't about miracles. It's about a UW control deck that happens to strongly rely on 2 miracles: Terminus and Entreat the angels. So there is a fundamental difference.
Agreed. You seem very cognizant with this archetype!
I also don't agree with the idea of adding aggro.. (maybe with the exception of Lighting Bolt or Helix).
The point of this deck is to have an answer for everything your opponent uses and to eventually lock down your opponent completely... resulting in an eventual win with 1) small swings (Snapcaster, Vendilion Clique, Mindcensor), 2) Entreat the Angels, or 3) having the opponent concede the game (which seems quite common!)
Agreed. You seem very cognizant with this archetype!
I also don't agree with the idea of adding aggro.. (maybe with the exception of Lighting Bolt or Helix).
The point of this deck is to have an answer for everything your opponent uses and to eventually lock down your opponent completely... resulting in an eventual win with 1) small swings (Snapcaster, Vendilion Clique, Mindcensor), 2) Entreat the Angels, or 3) having the opponent concede the game (which seems quite common!)
If you wanted to go more aggro, I know there's a grixis tempo deck in developing under "Uber Tempo." You could run thunderous wrath and miracles alongside delvers and it would fit that playstyle much more.
Playing white also gives you lock pieces, should you need it, such as Humility and Moat. Playing against creature decks, I often win by putting down a moat, then playing a Jace, and having my opponent scoop.
This deck is so much fun to play. So much tension in controlling the top of your library (shuffle away bad cards vs keeping that Terminus on top).
Also both Terminus and Entreat are fantastic. 4 and 2 feels like the right number to me.
The combo matchup is really hairy because your clock is so completely terrible unless you flip Entreat early. When I do win it's usually that or an active Jace controlling all their draws (or CB/top vs Storm, CB/top isn't as good vs Show & Tell decks).
Even with so many miracles and prematurely drawn miracles, brainstorms put them back on top. I have yet to have a problem with that. The tides put my tops and creatures back, yes, but my creatures and top are cheap and casting the tide always sets back the opponent more than it does me. I don't know what else to say, my list has been working so I'm going to stick with how I've been running it, continually tweaking it. I will try a list with white instead of red though.
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With your list I'd do, -2 Bob, -1 Taigo, -1 Aven Mindcensor, -2 Elspeth, -1 Spell Snare, +2 Swords to plowshares, +2 Vendillion Clique, +1 Entreat, +2 more lands.
I think if you want Elspeth, I think two in the board should be good to replace the two stps. While Aven Mindcensor doesn't really do anything, I think vendillion clique does the same job but it also does it better then Aven does on a large scale.
In addition, Bob also doesn't do all that much in this deck because you already have plenty of card filtering already and yeah as it's been said before Bob can tend to deal a infinite damage to you. Sure you gain card advantage from bob also but you already have plenty of that in the deck.
As for playing 4 swords to plowshares, you definitely should play with four. I think it's not good to play any less then four of them in the maindeck. I also think running 20 lands is low in this deck, I'd suggest at least 2 more lands.
Lastly, I think spell snare isn't all that good right now and you seem to have a strong disruption suite already even without spell snare. Also, you should definitely play with 2 Entreats, I always feel two is the right number for this deck since one is too few and also really random while more then two is clunky.
I posted the first iteration of this deck in this thread a few pages back, but since then this has gone from the Landstill thread to the Miracles thread - which is a completely different deck.
[spoiler][COLOR=darkorange][FONT=fixedsys]I played a legacy final tournament this weekend.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[FONT=fixedsys][COLOR=darkorange]In order to get your some background, I'll explain how the tournament worked:[/COLOR][/FONT]
[spoiler]
[FONT=fixedsys][COLOR=darkorange]we had 7 seperate tournaments. The winner of each one qualified for a final event. After that, from the players that did not qualify, the player with the most round wins in those 7 tournaments also qualified for the event, making it an 8 man final.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=fixedsys][COLOR=darkorange]The final was 7 Rounds (everyone plays everyone else) and was played this weekend. I won playing Miracle Control.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[/spoiler]
[FONT=fixedsys][COLOR=darkorange]Now, there were 8 players (read the spoiler to understand why there were only 8). The meta was:
[list]
[*] 2 Miracle Control (mine and a more aggroish version playing Stoneforge)
[*] 2 Omniscience decks (one mono blue and one with the red splash for Burning Wish
[*]1 Maverick
[*]2 RUG Delver
[*]1 Esper Stoneblade[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=fixedsys][COLOR=darkorange]I won the event and played what I thought was a great deck.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=fixedsys][COLOR=darkorange]Thinking back, the only change I'd make would be to put in Submerge in the Sideboard (2 of them) in the place of Fact or Fiction and Counterspell.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=fixedsys][COLOR=darkorange]The Fact or Fiction was a card I was trying out. I wanted something I could tutor up with Wish that would close out the game. I thought of Zenith's (both blue and white) but they were too mana intensive. In the end, even FoF turned out to be too much, since I never fetched it. Plus, I had a finisher in Noxious Revival anyway (putting an Entreat on top), so It was a wasted slot in the SB.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys][COLOR=#ff8c00][/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys][COLOR=#ff8c00][/spoiler][/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=fixedsys][COLOR=darkorange]Anyway, I don't think this is a fine tuned list, but I think it's a bit of a different approach to the deck, so I wanted to share. Maybe someone will like it and want to tune it. Either way, is more info for you guys [/COLOR][/FONT]
This is a very solid deck and I'm glad you shared your results! I have a few questions for you.
1) Have you ever been screwed on your opening hand or draw with 2 JtM? I know he's vital for this archetype but most people only put in 2 or 3. I suppose you can just brainstorm or FoW excess Jaces.
2) Which matchups would you side in Vendilion Clique?
3) Are the 2x Path to Exiles really necessary? I see it in many peoples SB and I initially put them in mine, but I never saw myself taking them from my SB and actually using them. Did you see yourself using them often?
4) I'm not sure if you were up against Dredge or Lands, but I'm assuming these would be bad matchups for you.
Once again, thanks for posting this - and your results prove this archetype can be successful!
List tags are malformed.
I have two approaches to this type of deck and am wondering which would be the best.. looking for criticism on either deck and also looking for opinions as to which one has more potential.
It's a hard choice! Both seem to perform very well (though I have yet to enter a 'real' tournament with > 12 players).
List here. Discuss? Portent is a neat card I haven't seen in a while, as well as the maindecked Moat.
WTF is with the 3 Tundra/2 Glacial Fortress split?
I agree that it's nice to see Portent back off the bench. I used to love that card back in the Ice Age era. It's funny because this sounds like blasphemy now, but I used to always like it better than Brainstorm. Shuffle effects were actually very hard to come by back then.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
I don't see how it can make a bigger entreat the angels, as it's a sorcery - just like Ponder. Unless I'm missing something???
Targeting the other player can be nice, though.. especially in combination with Jace's 1st ability
Eh, because it delays the draw so you have all your mana open, but I guess that's how it'd be anyways because you can never Ponder an Entreat. Targeting the other player can be nice though, especially against non-blue or even combo decks.
Probably a force. We really only need force against combo, so 3 maindeck should be fine.
I've been leaning that way, but the card disadvantage is worrisome. Im spending 3 mana and 3 cards to counter a spell. Sure, it's a last ditch kind of thing, but that's really bad.
I've been leaning that way, but the card disadvantage is worrisome. Im spending 3 mana and 3 cards to counter a spell. Sure, it's a last ditch kind of thing, but that's really bad.
I've been contemplating testing out a singleton Personal Tutor to set up Terminus or Entreat, has anyone tested this?
That sounds like a decent idea.. and for 1 mana it could be viable. I think the sorcery speed and letting opponent have an entire turn to respond (knowing what you'll be doing) is a 'con' though, and may end up backfiring. You also would lose card advantage (unlike with Brainstorm, Ponder, or Preordain).
I think I'd rather pull a Ponder, and hope for the best.. If you have a top or JtmS out, that's a possible 7 cards you look through.. if you have both our, or a fetchland, it goes up to 10 (13) cards.
I know it's not as good as searching your entire deck, but I'm thinking the 'pros' outweigh the 'cons'.
I haven't tested personal tutor, so I may be wrong in my assessment.... I'm only thinking aloud...
WTF is with the 3 Tundra/2 Glacial Fortress split?
I agree that it's nice to see Portent back off the bench. I used to love that card back in the Ice Age era. It's funny because this sounds like blasphemy now, but I used to always like it better than Brainstorm. Shuffle effects were actually very hard to come by back then.
The tundra/glacial fortress split i think is mainly due to the sideboarded choke in maverick's list.
I love the cunning wish maindeck. It seems so versitile. Still trying to figure out all of the targets that I want. I'm considering a bounce spell (Echoing Truth/ Wipe Away) as a one of. Any other suggestions?
I have been play testing with a single portent and I can only say good things about it. It shuffles for counterbalance/ top, fate seals your opponent and enables miracles. It also lets you keep 8 cards in your hand against a combo opponent since you can draw your 8th card on their upkeep. If you have a top out you can even choose which of the random top three cards you draw on your opponents turn. If I had room in my deck I would run two. Only Con is that its not an instant so you cant snapcaster it on your opponents turn.
Agreed. You seem very cognizant with this archetype!
I also don't agree with the idea of adding aggro.. (maybe with the exception of Lighting Bolt or Helix).
The point of this deck is to have an answer for everything your opponent uses and to eventually lock down your opponent completely... resulting in an eventual win with 1) small swings (Snapcaster, Vendilion Clique, Mindcensor), 2) Entreat the Angels, or 3) having the opponent concede the game (which seems quite common!)
Sig by Sioux Heroes of the Plane Studios
If you wanted to go more aggro, I know there's a grixis tempo deck in developing under "Uber Tempo." You could run thunderous wrath and miracles alongside delvers and it would fit that playstyle much more.
Playing white also gives you lock pieces, should you need it, such as Humility and Moat. Playing against creature decks, I often win by putting down a moat, then playing a Jace, and having my opponent scoop.
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Also both Terminus and Entreat are fantastic. 4 and 2 feels like the right number to me.
The combo matchup is really hairy because your clock is so completely terrible unless you flip Entreat early. When I do win it's usually that or an active Jace controlling all their draws (or CB/top vs Storm, CB/top isn't as good vs Show & Tell decks).
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
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U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
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With your list I'd do, -2 Bob, -1 Taigo, -1 Aven Mindcensor, -2 Elspeth, -1 Spell Snare, +2 Swords to plowshares, +2 Vendillion Clique, +1 Entreat, +2 more lands.
I think if you want Elspeth, I think two in the board should be good to replace the two stps. While Aven Mindcensor doesn't really do anything, I think vendillion clique does the same job but it also does it better then Aven does on a large scale.
In addition, Bob also doesn't do all that much in this deck because you already have plenty of card filtering already and yeah as it's been said before Bob can tend to deal a infinite damage to you. Sure you gain card advantage from bob also but you already have plenty of that in the deck.
As for playing 4 swords to plowshares, you definitely should play with four. I think it's not good to play any less then four of them in the maindeck. I also think running 20 lands is low in this deck, I'd suggest at least 2 more lands.
Lastly, I think spell snare isn't all that good right now and you seem to have a strong disruption suite already even without spell snare. Also, you should definitely play with 2 Entreats, I always feel two is the right number for this deck since one is too few and also really random while more then two is clunky.
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StaffAnyhow, if you're still interested in a Landstill-type deck, check out my developing Primer on "Hustillity": http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=441895
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This is a very solid deck and I'm glad you shared your results! I have a few questions for you.
1) Have you ever been screwed on your opening hand or draw with 2 JtM? I know he's vital for this archetype but most people only put in 2 or 3. I suppose you can just brainstorm or FoW excess Jaces.
2) Which matchups would you side in Vendilion Clique?
3) Are the 2x Path to Exiles really necessary? I see it in many peoples SB and I initially put them in mine, but I never saw myself taking them from my SB and actually using them. Did you see yourself using them often?
4) I'm not sure if you were up against Dredge or Lands, but I'm assuming these would be bad matchups for you.
Once again, thanks for posting this - and your results prove this archetype can be successful!
List tags are malformed.
Sig by Sioux Heroes of the Plane Studios
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1042264
List here. Discuss? Portent is a neat card I haven't seen in a while, as well as the maindecked Moat.
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It's a hard choice! Both seem to perform very well (though I have yet to enter a 'real' tournament with > 12 players).
The first one is UWB:
4 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Moat
4 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Engineered Plague
1 Terminus
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Perish
3 Leyline of the Void
Second is just UW:
5 Island
3 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
2 Cunning Wish
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Moat
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Terminus
2 Path to Exile
1 Flusterstorm
1 Submerge
1 Noxious Revival
1 Disenchant
1 Counterspell
1 Orim's Chant
1 Wipe Away
1 Pulse of the Fields
... they're both very different! Any feedback would be great!
Also - I was wondering about maybe including Isochron Scepter and Orim's Chant mainboard.. any thoughts on this?
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Probably a force. We really only need force against combo, so 3 maindeck should be fine.
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WTF is with the 3 Tundra/2 Glacial Fortress split?
I agree that it's nice to see Portent back off the bench. I used to love that card back in the Ice Age era. It's funny because this sounds like blasphemy now, but I used to always like it better than Brainstorm. Shuffle effects were actually very hard to come by back then.
Delayed draw could mean a bigger Entreat the Angels or something. You can also target a player which could be relevant?
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I don't see how it can make a bigger entreat the angels, as it's a sorcery - just like Ponder. Unless I'm missing something???
Targeting the other player can be nice, though.. especially in combination with Jace's 1st ability
Sig by Sioux Heroes of the Plane Studios
Eh, because it delays the draw so you have all your mana open, but I guess that's how it'd be anyways because you can never Ponder an Entreat. Targeting the other player can be nice though, especially against non-blue or even combo decks.
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I've been leaning that way, but the card disadvantage is worrisome. Im spending 3 mana and 3 cards to counter a spell. Sure, it's a last ditch kind of thing, but that's really bad.
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I almost want to just say Counterspell or Flusterstorm.
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Lossett's list had -1 StP, +1 Cunning Wish.
I've been contemplating testing out a singleton Personal Tutor to set up Terminus or Entreat, has anyone tested this?
That sounds like a decent idea.. and for 1 mana it could be viable. I think the sorcery speed and letting opponent have an entire turn to respond (knowing what you'll be doing) is a 'con' though, and may end up backfiring. You also would lose card advantage (unlike with Brainstorm, Ponder, or Preordain).
I think I'd rather pull a Ponder, and hope for the best.. If you have a top or JtmS out, that's a possible 7 cards you look through.. if you have both our, or a fetchland, it goes up to 10 (13) cards.
I know it's not as good as searching your entire deck, but I'm thinking the 'pros' outweigh the 'cons'.
I haven't tested personal tutor, so I may be wrong in my assessment.... I'm only thinking aloud...
Sig by Sioux Heroes of the Plane Studios
The tundra/glacial fortress split i think is mainly due to the sideboarded choke in maverick's list.
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