I'll take your word for it Maybe I've just been playing a bit to many "basic land" decks lately and those gave me the feeling that they could really time their GY hate any way they wanted.
I guess Leyline and Samurai (I think only those are played?) are the worst form of hate (in multiples) as they remove E.E. which is the only maindeck card I have against them. For a lot of other hate a Cycle land or untapped Academy can swing it in your favor I guess.
I'm boarding a second EE for just that reason.
Samurai isn't run very much right now. Planar Void is also really bad for us, but nobody plays it.
Decks like Fish are difficult if they find their hate. But they have almost no draw spells, so they may only see one piece of hate.
I'll take your word for it Maybe I've just been playing a bit to many "basic land" decks lately and those gave me the feeling that they could really time their GY hate any way they wanted.
I guess Leyline and Samurai (I think only those are played?) are the worst form of hate (in multiples) as they remove E.E. which is the only maindeck card I have against them. For a lot of other hate a Cycle land or untapped Academy can swing it in your favor I guess.
The worst form of hate is definitely Extirpate, as the only way of dealing with it is Chalice at 1, Crucible as an alternative engine, or manascrewing them out of black. None of these answers are ideal.
Leyline and Samurai are indeed difficult to deal with, but 3 Krosan Grip out of the SB deals with Leyline nicely, especially considering how you can Intuition for the Grips. Samurai is a little trickier, but it is not played often. Ideally you can do something by the time they are able to drop it, such as some LD and Tabernacle or getting Barbarian Ring active. Luckily you will rarely face Samurai in a competitive event, and Leyline will never be played maindeck in a good deck.
The worst form of hate is definitely Extirpate, as the only way of dealing with it is Chalice at 1, Crucible as an alternative engine, or manascrewing them out of black. None of these answers are ideal.
Or board in Bob and win off of the strength of an unanswered Bob.
koopa, i still don't undertand why you dont play crop rotation, there are decks that you own with a single land.
example belcher
i have a even game MD
a favorable post side
(crop to glacial-tabernacle)
(plus leyline side)
give it a try. (i have 2 belcher players in my zone xD)
Rotation is terrible against the Blue Decks, as it sets you up to get 2-for-1ed, and lose the mana advantage the rest of the deck tries to create.
Additionally, what do you cut for it? The list is already pretty darn tight as it is, and if you cut too many lands you will weaken Mox Diamond and Manabond. If you cut the tutor package, you lose resiliency to hate and overall redundancy.
The deck already has the tools it needs to find specific pieces of cards, through the Loam engine, Intuition and Tolaria West. Outside of Belcher, almost every other deck in the format will give us enough time to activate a relevant Tolaria West.
Karakas is useful when?? The nonexistant sneak and show matchup? Corner case against GW Tempo when they have a Wasteland and Teeg out and you need to EE away something else?
Chasm has some utility against Goblins, sure. But it's hardly high-impact across the boad.
I'm still contemplating the TES matchup....and was thinking about devoting my sideboard to it, filling the SB with cards that hurt TES and can help elsewhere. However, as I haven't played this deck at a tournament level yet I was wondering what other decks you REALLY have to hit from the sideboard to have a chance in game 2/3?
Having E.E., Bog, Karakas and Ensnaring Bridge maindecked I didn't add anything for the aggro matchup, but also no targeted artifact/enchantment removal. E.E can hit anything from 0 - 5 mana and is mostly reliable...I was thinking about something like
4x Stifle - also works against fetchland heavy decks, which complements the mana denial plan
4x Raven's Crime - great against most control decks
4x Dark Confident - he just fits the deck so he can replace any useless card in any matchup, provides a clock
1x Sphere of Resistance / Trinisphere - Tutorable and needs to be answered. I do think its pretty limited to the TES matchup
1x Tormod's Crypt - in addition to maindeck Bog
1x Chameric Mass - Will usually provide a body against countertop
Was thinking about Mana Maze as it also works against gobbo's / merfolk while basically not hurting us at all...but it not being an artifact makes it a bit worse than Sphere of Resistance as that only takes up one slot. However, I do have my doubts about the tutor-plan, cause I suspect it is to slow.
And; is there anything in white that could justify playing white and adding Leyline of Sanctity to the board?
My current board was posted a little bit back. I consider it fairly well balanced for every matchup, except Combo.
3x Extirpate
4x Dark Confidant
3x Krosan Grip
1x Smokestack
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Tormod's Crypt
Of these, Smokestacks and Crucible of World are absolutely essential. I would not run a lands board without either of them. They are both really good against blue decks and black decks. Krosan Grip is similarly really good, as protection from a lot of random things, as well as opposing grave hate.
The last three slots, I can see putting almost anything in. They're very, very loose cards in my board.
The first 7 cards depend a lot on what your maindeck is trying to do.
In other news, all of this deck except Port is on Magic Online. Does anyone have ideas on what to replace Port with?
Everyone else pretty much hit it... except for one thing.
Smokestack also comes in against Zoo. It sounds weird, but it's a better finisher than Mindslaver in that matchup, so you play it there. It's also alright against Merfolk.
Smokestack is really good against anything running Force of Will, in particular the slower decks, like BUG Landstill, etc. Basically, if they don't counter it, they'll lose the game.
I am not a fan of Smokestacks. I played it in columbus and I didn't touch it. Actually I brought it in against Enchantress but I never saw it and I won the game anyways. While I agree that it is strong vs the slower control decks I do not think it is good vs the fast aggro decks. It seems way to slow and it won't actually do anything until you are withing burn range. My aggro matchup plan is simply to surivive until I stabilize, and Smokestack does help with this, however it helps a little too late.
You typically intuition for academy ruins, chalice of the void, and loam if you don't have it. If you do have loam you get another potentially useful card probably a land or tolaria west.
On smokestacks. I think the card is fine personally; we can ramp it up to 3 with a manabond in play, even more potentially because loam = greatness with it and manabond out so we wipe their board while we maintain ours. The joke? We can utilize the card better than white stax and mud stax can lol. And against control it is soooooo good against them if it sticks, we should win. And it has synergy with academy ruins.
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I am not a fan of Smokestacks. I played it in columbus and I didn't touch it. Actually I brought it in against Enchantress but I never saw it and I won the game anyways. While I agree that it is strong vs the slower control decks I do not think it is good vs the fast aggro decks. It seems way to slow and it won't actually do anything until you are withing burn range. My aggro matchup plan is simply to surivive until I stabilize, and Smokestack does help with this, however it helps a little too late.
Smokestacks isn't good against the aggro decks. Instead, it's simply a better way of ending the game than Mindslaver. Slaver lock is typically too slow to be effective against the aggro decks in the format, while Stax can come down at a reasonable point in time.
I don't think I would want it against Enchantress; their engine is a lot stronger than ours is.
I had never played Enchantress before and I felt like it was okay. I never saw it so I am not sure. Either way, I don't think Mindslaver should be played in the deck period. I think the kill condition should be Mishra's Factory and that's it. So while I agree Smokestacks>Mindslaver, I think neither of them require a spot in the deck.
Don't forget that against TES we have wasteland and a 1 of ghost quarter to basically function as strip mine against them because most lists are 5c like Cook's. 3c TES is another matter though. Also good with intuition is ancient grudge; you can blow up artifact mana they lay down before they combo. Or a 'trick' play is blowing up a chrome mox with the imprint trigger on the stack so they can't tap it for mana.
Enchantress is tricky. Oblivion stone, if run, is the nuts against them because you can o stone their board then bojuka bog them so replenish is null and void or just crack crypt/nihil spellbomb. Relic is terrible for obvious reasons here.
We rarely have trouble with aggro decks anyways; and smokestacks, if run, is a 1 of making us unlikely to draw it against them. Our plan against aggro is simple; stall with ports, wastelands, and maze's until tabernacle and the loam engine start running to completely shut them out and if that isn't enough there's always glacial chasm.
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Thank you for your replies but i still don't get the point:
If you are saying that smokestack is good vs anything running Force of Will or Zoo, or Merfolk, or whatever, why don't we run Smokestack maindeck?
All the reasons you described in the last posts say that Smockestack is strong in general but i don't see it associated to a particular sideboard strategy... it seems to me like you are simply saying "Smockestack is a good card so put it in your sideboard"
Extirpate, Dark Confidant, Grips, Curcible, Chalice, Canonist, etc etc,... all have a clear purpose in sb, but i don't fully understand the role of Smokestack.
Waiting for clarifications
I have found that Smokestack is very good against Countertop and slow control decks, while it is not as effective against aggro. Control decks take a while to set up their board and provide no immediate threats to your life total. The only immediate threat is Counterbalance, which is answered by Smokestack (plus I run a Boseiju in the board to help resolve it quickly). Smokestack also helps with the Jace issue which can be game over for you if you do not proactively deal with it.
There are so many other things that you need to be doing against aggro rather than setting up for a Smokestack, but I could see how some people could find it useful. Try it against control decks, and you will be very pleased.
I have found that Smokestack is very good against Countertop and slow control decks, while it is not as effective against aggro. Control decks take a while to set up their board and provide no immediate threats to your life total. The only immediate threat is Counterbalance, which is answered by Smokestack (plus I run a Boseiju in the board to help resolve it quickly). Smokestack also helps with the Jace issue which can be game over for you if you do not proactively deal with it.
There are so many other things that you need to be doing against aggro rather than setting up for a Smokestack, but I could see how some people could find it useful. Try it against control decks, and you will be very pleased.
Um... Boseiju doesn't do anything for Smokestack. RTFC.
I'm not saying "Smokestack is the best card ever against aggro" Instead, I am saying "Smokestack is better than Mindslaver against aggro." Understand the difference?
Slosh:
Who is the best New Horizons player you've played against?
I've discussed the matchup at length with Dave Price (Virginian who made the deck), and people who have lost to him. I've also played against James Rynkeiwitz, who has won a SCG Open with the deck, and Jesse Krieger, who tests with Dave Price on a regular basis. In short, the matchup is abysmal if they know what they're doing. I do alright against mediocre local players, but against people that are actually *good* with the deck, the matchup is far worse.
Mindslaver and Smokestack both serve exactly the same role; they close out a game you're already winning. Smokestack is just far better in some matchups.
Koopa: Try Creeping Tar Pit. Seriously, that card is absolutely incredible. You can actually win when your opponent has a Goyf in play, as opposed to simply waiting them out. It also helps support Tolaria West, and kills Jace through blockers. In short, it's absurd.
Mishra's Factory does little besides tap for mana for most of the game; I've found I can very rarely tap it for mana profitably.
I didn't mean use boseiju on Smokestacks; it helps to use Boseiju in order to help resolve your Life from the Loams against a countertop lock which will allow you to more easily find the Smokestacks and Academy Ruins. These cards are part of the package that I bring in against slow control decks - which was the point I was trying to make.
I do not run Smokestacks or Mindslavers in my maindeck, so I am in the position of saying that neither is too beneficial in the aggro matchup.
I 3-1ed the last two Legacy Daily events with Lands on Magic Online. I know it's not the same format (Ports aren't available online) but the deck is still competitive.
Top forces you to mulligan less agressively. You can drop it and find whatever you're missing at the time.
I've lost to burn (without Ports, we can't stop Sulfuric Vortex), Thopters once, and some other decks, I have a list.
Meekstone is a concession to the BGW matchup; it comes down on turn 1 under discard and makes Knight very mediocre. In generic CounterTop Matchups, they need to find more crittes to win.
Intuition is just really slow sometimes, and is easily countered by daze or spell pierce.
The thing about top though is that it doesn't guarantee that you get what you need while intuition is the nuts if it resolves because it grabs you ANYTHING you need.
On confidant MD. It is a removal magnet if played MD. I see no point in playing bob MD in lands at all.
Nomad stadium is pretty bad when compared to z.orb which we can tutor for easily. Stadium just isn't worth it; you have to sack it then replay it again and worse it pings you for one life when tapped. Zuran orb sticks forever so you can sack whatever lands you want to it like cycle lands, tolaria wests, riftstone portal, lands that try to get wasted.
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I have heavily considered Bob in the main but the problem, IMO, is that he is simply a lightning rod game 1. Also, he isn't that great against matchups like Zoo and Goblins, yes he can chump and he does provide a card or two, but it does dilute our deck a little. Which is something I don't want to do. I think he is best in the board after out opponents take out their dead cards that would normally make our Confidant weaker.
Lands is kind of like Dredge, we have a pretty good game 1 against most of the field (with some obv exceptions), and game two and three become more difficult as the hate brought in. Dark Confidant in the board allows us to have that ace for the post board games.
EDIT:
Also, I want to thank all of you guys for posting here, we already have half as many post as the old thread and it was around for over a year. It's good to know that my work on the primer has opened up more players into what is my second favorite deck of all time.
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I'm boarding a second EE for just that reason.
Samurai isn't run very much right now. Planar Void is also really bad for us, but nobody plays it.
Decks like Fish are difficult if they find their hate. But they have almost no draw spells, so they may only see one piece of hate.
The worst form of hate is definitely Extirpate, as the only way of dealing with it is Chalice at 1, Crucible as an alternative engine, or manascrewing them out of black. None of these answers are ideal.
Leyline and Samurai are indeed difficult to deal with, but 3 Krosan Grip out of the SB deals with Leyline nicely, especially considering how you can Intuition for the Grips. Samurai is a little trickier, but it is not played often. Ideally you can do something by the time they are able to drop it, such as some LD and Tabernacle or getting Barbarian Ring active. Luckily you will rarely face Samurai in a competitive event, and Leyline will never be played maindeck in a good deck.
Or board in Bob and win off of the strength of an unanswered Bob.
Rotation is terrible against the Blue Decks, as it sets you up to get 2-for-1ed, and lose the mana advantage the rest of the deck tries to create.
Additionally, what do you cut for it? The list is already pretty darn tight as it is, and if you cut too many lands you will weaken Mox Diamond and Manabond. If you cut the tutor package, you lose resiliency to hate and overall redundancy.
The deck already has the tools it needs to find specific pieces of cards, through the Loam engine, Intuition and Tolaria West. Outside of Belcher, almost every other deck in the format will give us enough time to activate a relevant Tolaria West.
Even for the side though, Chalice is just as good.
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Go on... Outside of Bog (and maybe Mishra's Factory against Goblins) I don't know what lands get significantly better at instant speed.
Karakas is useful when?? The nonexistant sneak and show matchup? Corner case against GW Tempo when they have a Wasteland and Teeg out and you need to EE away something else?
Chasm has some utility against Goblins, sure. But it's hardly high-impact across the boad.
My current board was posted a little bit back. I consider it fairly well balanced for every matchup, except Combo.
3x Extirpate
4x Dark Confidant
3x Krosan Grip
1x Smokestack
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Tormod's Crypt
Of these, Smokestacks and Crucible of World are absolutely essential. I would not run a lands board without either of them. They are both really good against blue decks and black decks. Krosan Grip is similarly really good, as protection from a lot of random things, as well as opposing grave hate.
The last three slots, I can see putting almost anything in. They're very, very loose cards in my board.
The first 7 cards depend a lot on what your maindeck is trying to do.
In other news, all of this deck except Port is on Magic Online. Does anyone have ideas on what to replace Port with?
I am John Galt.
Attrition, in this context, from Marrium-Webster:
: the act of weakening or exhausting by constant harassment, abuse, or attack attrition>
Basically, you set yourself up with a near stable board, likely with more permanents than your opponent, and then play Smokestack and use Loam/Crucible with Manabond/Exploration to make sure you are playing at least the same number of permanents as you are sacrificing; while your opponent is sacrificing many more than they can play.
Fine-tuning the strategy likely happens in-game. It's not likely the Smokestack strategy will work well against Combo or fast Aggro, since you're going to die before attrition can become effective.
Edit:
@HexDepths: I played Dark Depths without the Hexmage last friday. I ground it out once in a game outside of the tournament, and every time I saw it during the tournament I wished it was just a manland. Imo in order to make HexDepths work you'd have to play the Living Wish strategy and just wish for the Hexmage when you need it.
I am John Galt.
Smokestack also comes in against Zoo. It sounds weird, but it's a better finisher than Mindslaver in that matchup, so you play it there. It's also alright against Merfolk.
Smokestack is really good against anything running Force of Will, in particular the slower decks, like BUG Landstill, etc. Basically, if they don't counter it, they'll lose the game.
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On smokestacks. I think the card is fine personally; we can ramp it up to 3 with a manabond in play, even more potentially because loam = greatness with it and manabond out so we wipe their board while we maintain ours. The joke? We can utilize the card better than white stax and mud stax can lol. And against control it is soooooo good against them if it sticks, we should win. And it has synergy with academy ruins.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Smokestacks isn't good against the aggro decks. Instead, it's simply a better way of ending the game than Mindslaver. Slaver lock is typically too slow to be effective against the aggro decks in the format, while Stax can come down at a reasonable point in time.
I don't think I would want it against Enchantress; their engine is a lot stronger than ours is.
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Enchantress is tricky. Oblivion stone, if run, is the nuts against them because you can o stone their board then bojuka bog them so replenish is null and void or just crack crypt/nihil spellbomb. Relic is terrible for obvious reasons here.
We rarely have trouble with aggro decks anyways; and smokestacks, if run, is a 1 of making us unlikely to draw it against them. Our plan against aggro is simple; stall with ports, wastelands, and maze's until tabernacle and the loam engine start running to completely shut them out and if that isn't enough there's always glacial chasm.
Currently Playing:
Retired
I have found that Smokestack is very good against Countertop and slow control decks, while it is not as effective against aggro. Control decks take a while to set up their board and provide no immediate threats to your life total. The only immediate threat is Counterbalance, which is answered by Smokestack (plus I run a Boseiju in the board to help resolve it quickly). Smokestack also helps with the Jace issue which can be game over for you if you do not proactively deal with it.
There are so many other things that you need to be doing against aggro rather than setting up for a Smokestack, but I could see how some people could find it useful. Try it against control decks, and you will be very pleased.
Um... Boseiju doesn't do anything for Smokestack. RTFC.
I'm not saying "Smokestack is the best card ever against aggro" Instead, I am saying "Smokestack is better than Mindslaver against aggro." Understand the difference?
Slosh:
Who is the best New Horizons player you've played against?
I've discussed the matchup at length with Dave Price (Virginian who made the deck), and people who have lost to him. I've also played against James Rynkeiwitz, who has won a SCG Open with the deck, and Jesse Krieger, who tests with Dave Price on a regular basis. In short, the matchup is abysmal if they know what they're doing. I do alright against mediocre local players, but against people that are actually *good* with the deck, the matchup is far worse.
Mindslaver and Smokestack both serve exactly the same role; they close out a game you're already winning. Smokestack is just far better in some matchups.
Koopa: Try Creeping Tar Pit. Seriously, that card is absolutely incredible. You can actually win when your opponent has a Goyf in play, as opposed to simply waiting them out. It also helps support Tolaria West, and kills Jace through blockers. In short, it's absurd.
Mishra's Factory does little besides tap for mana for most of the game; I've found I can very rarely tap it for mana profitably.
I didn't mean use boseiju on Smokestacks; it helps to use Boseiju in order to help resolve your Life from the Loams against a countertop lock which will allow you to more easily find the Smokestacks and Academy Ruins. These cards are part of the package that I bring in against slow control decks - which was the point I was trying to make.
I do not run Smokestacks or Mindslavers in my maindeck, so I am in the position of saying that neither is too beneficial in the aggro matchup.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1976735 (towards the bottom)
Hey all,
I 3-1ed the last two Legacy Daily events with Lands on Magic Online. I know it's not the same format (Ports aren't available online) but the deck is still competitive.
Enlightened Tutor has been really good for me.
I've lost to burn (without Ports, we can't stop Sulfuric Vortex), Thopters once, and some other decks, I have a list.
Meekstone is a concession to the BGW matchup; it comes down on turn 1 under discard and makes Knight very mediocre. In generic CounterTop Matchups, they need to find more crittes to win.
Intuition is just really slow sometimes, and is easily countered by daze or spell pierce.
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
On confidant MD. It is a removal magnet if played MD. I see no point in playing bob MD in lands at all.
Nomad stadium is pretty bad when compared to z.orb which we can tutor for easily. Stadium just isn't worth it; you have to sack it then replay it again and worse it pings you for one life when tapped. Zuran orb sticks forever so you can sack whatever lands you want to it like cycle lands, tolaria wests, riftstone portal, lands that try to get wasted.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Lands is kind of like Dredge, we have a pretty good game 1 against most of the field (with some obv exceptions), and game two and three become more difficult as the hate brought in. Dark Confidant in the board allows us to have that ace for the post board games.
EDIT:
Also, I want to thank all of you guys for posting here, we already have half as many post as the old thread and it was around for over a year. It's good to know that my work on the primer has opened up more players into what is my second favorite deck of all time.
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