Has anyone play tested the deck w/o running Batterskull? Atm, I'm having thoughts of running FnI instead of Batterskull as it really screws up my mana curve.
Has anyone play tested the deck w/o running Batterskull? Atm, I'm having thoughts of running FnI instead of Batterskull as it really screws up my mana curve.
Batterskull works just too well vs so many decks.
There is pretty much never a situation where I don't want a batterskull.
If you are looking for something to cut for batterskull cut light and shadow, some go for the throats or some enlightened tutors.
Has anyone play tested the deck w/o running Batterskull? Atm, I'm having thoughts of running FnI instead of Batterskull as it really screws up my mana curve.
Well, think about it this way:
You pay 3 to put Sword of Fire and Ice into play and 2 to equip it. That's 5 mana and you need a creature out.
OR
You pay 5 mana to put Batterskull into play. It even comes with it's own creature :).
On matchups:
Very good (75+) - Merfolk, UW StoneBlade, Maverick
Good (55-75) - Affinity, TES, Belcher, NO RUG, Hulk Rebirth, Gobbos, Combo Elves, Bant
Meh (45-55) - Enchantress (Easy G1, hard g2 if they have Leyline of Sanctity), Hive Mind (see Enchantress)
Bad (35-45) - Stax, Burn, UW Landstill, Dredge
Very Bad (35-) - None
This has been my approximate experience playing vs various decks. Any objections?
[/DECK]
You don't have Zoo in here. It's Bad at best and Very Bad when piloted by a good player, especially the faster Burn Zoo.
Ah, yes. Zoo is pretty bad. I personally have little experience with Combo elves, I'm taking Tim the Enchanter's word on that from earlier in the thread. What's your analysis of the MU?
EDIT: Umm... Perish? Or play a different deck? We feed on control decks, so its not surprising we have trouble with aggro
I have played some matches vs. elves combo and i didn't feel that this matchup is so ood as described above, maybe is just an impressionand i need much decktesting in this matchup, but i saw that if i can stop his combo it can pretty easily overwhelm us in numbers of creature and kill us just attacking...
jitte wrecks combo elves. pretty much all of their creatures have a toughness of 1 or 2
if you make sure to pop off the actual combo elves(basically any creatures that let them untap or any that give them more than 1 mana.)
follow that up with some discard and they pretty much go into top deck mode while you've got a batterskull or some equiped little dudes
joe951: Elves usually wins T1-3. Even with discard I can't see us slowing it down more than 2 or 3 turns. How do you get Jitte online by then? And do you just auto-mull any hand without T1 discard?
blescot: Looks solid. Your replacement looks fine to me, although I would recommend fitting a Cabal Therapy in your deck somewhere.
EDIT:
freeza59650: Yea, that's an interesting idea. I'll try to get around to testing it soon.
Those estimates were derived from what others have posted, which do you disagree with?
Personally, I can vouch for the following:
Very good (75+) - Merfolk, UW StoneBlade
Good (55-75) - Affinity, NO RUG, Gobbos, Bant
Meh (45-55) - Enchantress (Easy G1, hard g2 if they have Leyline of Sanctity), Hive Mind (see Enchantress)
Bad (35-45) - Burn, Dredge (g1 is hard, g2-3 are meh)
Very Bad (35-)
I don't think NO RUG is that hard game 1, although I lean on my discard, which BW has more of than BWr
Right now i am trying to work out the numbers for my manabase. It seems like 8 colorless lands is a 1 too much. What would you guys suggest to be optimal: 4 wastelands, 3 mishras factory or 3 wastelands 4 mishras factory? The hard part is i want to be able to mystic but i do not want to run out of creatures and be left with idol swords.
@RaggedJoe: Can you post the list you are getting those numbers with please? I would really like to compare.
I posted a couple days ago asking for some advice for a budget Stoneblade deck. My budget has expanded a bit but I still can't afford two key cards: Vindicate and Dark Confidant. I will most definitely get Dark Confidant in the future when I have the money, but for now I will be running Phyrexian Arena. In replacement for Vindicate I will be running Oblivion Ring. Its the closest thing I can find next to Vindicate. It can't hit lands but it hits most things that I will want to get rid of.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Tbh, I don't see a green splash adding anything extra to the deck unless you run more cards green has to offer like Knights + Toolbox, Pridemages etc, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't see why you would splash green, except for sideboard choices. Sure, Goyf is the best beater atm but we don't really need it when we have equipments to back our aggro plan. Pernicous Deed is imo the worst card in this deck. You would basically destroy everything on your side of the field, including your equipments, moxes and bitterblossoms. If you need a sweeper, just run *** as it is less mana intensive and usually leaves you with something left.
Tbh, I don't see a green splash adding anything extra to the deck unless you run more cards green has to offer like Knights + Toolbox, Pridemages etc, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
well i did it mostly for pernicious deed, just added goyf because he's a good beater :/
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I'm in much the same position as you. I would recommend running 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant. Maybe even three because you lack Bitterblossom in your deck. You might want to consider down grading to a B/W version because it is much easier on the budget (duals are blegghh to afford). In my budget version I am running 4x Godless Shrine which cost less than half the price of a playset of Scrubland (I got a playset for about $65). They do hit you for 2 damage, but if you can't currently afford Dark Confidant then the extra 2 damage shouldn't hurt too much. Dark Confidant can be replaced with Phyrexian Arena although I do believe that Dark Confidant is far superior. Also, by running only B/W you really only need 4 fetches (Marsh Flats). As for Vindicate, you can easily replace it with Oblivion Ring. It puts less strain on your mana, has the same CMC as vindicate, and only requires 1 plains and 2 colorless. I would strongly recommend running 2-3 mana acceleration. I've been trying Aether Vial, Dark Ritual, and Chrome Mox. So far, Chrome Mox has out performed the other two because of the amount of consistency it provides you. Sure you can have explosive beginnings with a Dark Ritual, but Chrome Mox can fix any mana problems that you have and remains on the board, while Dark Ritual goes to the graveyard. Aether Vial is alright, but I preferred the instant use of Chrome Mox than waiting for charges on Aether Vial.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
andrewgk: It looks pretty good as it stands, especially if your going to be playing other budget decks. The only real problem is the lack of Bitterblossom. Personally, I don't run Factory, but I think a few people here do.
Stille_Nacht: Completely missed Deed :/ What matchups do you find it useful in?
blescot: Basically see andrewgk's comment. If you can afford a singleton of the Rav duels, even playing one will greatly improve your play due to the fetchlands. I experimented with budget mana-bases the last time someone asked, and I think even a rather cheap:
Works reasonably well in a BW deck, especially if your playing vs other budget decks (ie, don't expect to see much wasteland). If you really want the red, maybe
been testing a little, the deed seems to be best vs. zoo, merfolk, affinity, really any creature based strat...as well as the occasional enchantress, and dredge (heh, their zombies cost 0, and for some reason, a lotta dredge players have gotten it into eskewing iona/ AoD, too bad for them...).
i might subtract the tarmo, it just seemed like a good idea the time (well, actually it seemed like 300 bucks i wasnt using). deed seems to be functional, i like it :], yet it might not be optimal, only more testing will tell. Problem with deed is that SF locks it for 2 until i get batterskull out, and the swords lock it at 3, but its still pretty nice overall.
Any suggestions at all would be appreciated. As stated it plays out much like a Death and Taxes build by grinding away on an opponent through discard and permanent removal to set up the win via batterskull/sworded beastie. A Mangara on a vat is typically, good game and the rest of the creatures are a nightmare on it as well.
Glissa, besides being a difficult creature to deal with in combat, helps as an engine to recur artifacts, hence the Go for the Throats instead of StP.
Had a quick game with a Mono-blue control deck. Will have a few more games after the next few days, but so far its been terrible for me. Thoughts on SB ideas?
Any suggestions at all would be appreciated. As stated it plays out much like a Death and Taxes build by grinding away on an opponent through discard and permanent removal to set up the win via batterskull/sworded beastie. A Mangara on a vat is typically, good game and the rest of the creatures are a nightmare on it as well.
Glissa, besides being a difficult creature to deal with in combat, helps as an engine to recur artifacts, hence the Go for the Throats instead of StP.
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Gatekeeper Malakair
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Go for the Throat
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourarch
4 Enlightened Tutor
Enchantments
3 Bitterblossom
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Lands
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland** Proxy
2 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Arid Mesa
5 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
Creatures: 14
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Tidehollow Sculler
Spells: 20
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
2 Pernicioius Deed
4 Bitterblossom
3 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
Batterskull works just too well vs so many decks.
There is pretty much never a situation where I don't want a batterskull.
If you are looking for something to cut for batterskull cut light and shadow, some go for the throats or some enlightened tutors.
Legacy:
UGRB 4 color cascade
EDH/Commander:
BWG Teneb, the Harvester
Well, think about it this way:
You pay 3 to put Sword of Fire and Ice into play and 2 to equip it. That's 5 mana and you need a creature out.
OR
You pay 5 mana to put Batterskull into play. It even comes with it's own creature :).
Not really much of a difference mana-wise IMO. Really, I generally find that Batterskull is cheaper since you still need to pay Sword of Fire and Ice's equip cost with Stoneforge Mystic.
Totally agreed. Batterskull shines too much to cover it up.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
You don't have Zoo in here. It's Bad at best and Very Bad when piloted by a good player, especially the faster Burn Zoo.
EDIT: Umm... Perish? Or play a different deck? We feed on control decks, so its not surprising we have trouble with aggro
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
jitte wrecks combo elves. pretty much all of their creatures have a toughness of 1 or 2
if you make sure to pop off the actual combo elves(basically any creatures that let them untap or any that give them more than 1 mana.)
follow that up with some discard and they pretty much go into top deck mode while you've got a batterskull or some equiped little dudes
Legacy:
UGRB 4 color cascade
EDH/Commander:
BWG Teneb, the Harvester
blescot: Looks solid. Your replacement looks fine to me, although I would recommend fitting a Cabal Therapy in your deck somewhere.
EDIT:
freeza59650: Yea, that's an interesting idea. I'll try to get around to testing it soon.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Personally, I can vouch for the following:
Very good (75+) - Merfolk, UW StoneBlade
Good (55-75) - Affinity, NO RUG, Gobbos, Bant
Meh (45-55) - Enchantress (Easy G1, hard g2 if they have Leyline of Sanctity), Hive Mind (see Enchantress)
Bad (35-45) - Burn, Dredge (g1 is hard, g2-3 are meh)
Very Bad (35-)
I don't think NO RUG is that hard game 1, although I lean on my discard, which BW has more of than BWr
EDIT: Good luck in the tourniment
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
@RaggedJoe: Can you post the list you are getting those numbers with please? I would really like to compare.
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Wasteland
3 Chrome Mox
Equips:
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Win:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bitterblossom
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Tidehollow Sculler
Removal:
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Moat
3 Extirpate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
3 Phyrexian Revoker/Pithing Needle
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Mirran Crusader
The sb is more or less right, I obviously tweak it regularly, but that's what I was using this past week.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
Creatures: 14
3 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Tidehollow Sculler
Spells: 20
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Bitterblossom
3 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
Why goyf?
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Here is my current list:
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Equipment
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Bitterblossom
3 Chrome Mox
Disruption
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
Land
4 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
5 Plains
5 Swamp
Should I run some Mishra's Factory? I have two from EvT.
Is three Oblivion Ring/Vindicate good enough? Or should I be running four?
Should I be running more creatures because I'm lacking 4x Dark Confidant?
More Cabal Therapy?
Should I ease up on the removal/disruption in favor of more creatures? Or am I good as it stands?
Thank you for any help!
Complete agreement.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
well i did it mostly for pernicious deed, just added goyf because he's a good beater :/
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
I'm in much the same position as you. I would recommend running 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant. Maybe even three because you lack Bitterblossom in your deck. You might want to consider down grading to a B/W version because it is much easier on the budget (duals are blegghh to afford). In my budget version I am running 4x Godless Shrine which cost less than half the price of a playset of Scrubland (I got a playset for about $65). They do hit you for 2 damage, but if you can't currently afford Dark Confidant then the extra 2 damage shouldn't hurt too much. Dark Confidant can be replaced with Phyrexian Arena although I do believe that Dark Confidant is far superior. Also, by running only B/W you really only need 4 fetches (Marsh Flats). As for Vindicate, you can easily replace it with Oblivion Ring. It puts less strain on your mana, has the same CMC as vindicate, and only requires 1 plains and 2 colorless. I would strongly recommend running 2-3 mana acceleration. I've been trying Aether Vial, Dark Ritual, and Chrome Mox. So far, Chrome Mox has out performed the other two because of the amount of consistency it provides you. Sure you can have explosive beginnings with a Dark Ritual, but Chrome Mox can fix any mana problems that you have and remains on the board, while Dark Ritual goes to the graveyard. Aether Vial is alright, but I preferred the instant use of Chrome Mox than waiting for charges on Aether Vial.
Stille_Nacht: Completely missed Deed :/ What matchups do you find it useful in?
blescot: Basically see andrewgk's comment. If you can afford a singleton of the Rav duels, even playing one will greatly improve your play due to the fetchlands. I experimented with budget mana-bases the last time someone asked, and I think even a rather cheap:
2 Arid Mesa
2 Godless Shrine
6 Swamp
4 Plains
3 Chrome Mox
Works reasonably well in a BW deck, especially if your playing vs other budget decks (ie, don't expect to see much wasteland). If you really want the red, maybe
4 Arid Mesa
2 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Mountain
This would be more expensive, but still quite reasonable for a legacy deck.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
i might subtract the tarmo, it just seemed like a good idea the time (well, actually it seemed like 300 bucks i wasnt using). deed seems to be functional, i like it :], yet it might not be optimal, only more testing will tell. Problem with deed is that SF locks it for 2 until i get batterskull out, and the swords lock it at 3, but its still pretty nice overall.
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Glissa, the Traitor
3x Flickerwisp
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Mangara of Corondor
Instant/Sorcery
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Go for the Throat
1x Swords to Plowshares
Enchantment/Artifact
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
3x Mimic Vat
4x Bayou
4x Razorverge Thicket
4x Caves of Koilos
2x Treetop Village
2x Llanowar Wastes
1x Stirring Wildwood
3x Plains
3x Swamp
4x Mirran Crusader
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
2x Silence
2x Duress2x ?
Any suggestions at all would be appreciated. As stated it plays out much like a Death and Taxes build by grinding away on an opponent through discard and permanent removal to set up the win via batterskull/sworded beastie. A Mangara on a vat is typically, good game and the rest of the creatures are a nightmare on it as well.
Glissa, besides being a difficult creature to deal with in combat, helps as an engine to recur artifacts, hence the Go for the Throats instead of StP.
Also the 2 missing sideboard cards are Gatekeeper of Malakir
no tarmogoyf???