I can take aggro main deck. I don't see a reason to devote a whole lot of the sideboard to it. Faerie macabre works great, I like it a lot. I don't see any reason to use 8 spots in sideboard for macabre and relic though. Vexing Shusher seems great in zoo, where there are many larger more dangerous creatures that attract removal. But when the option is to remove a creature that is going to the graveyard in another turn, or the card that is interrupting all the spells, there is no reason not to go after shusher. I'd rather have some red elemental blasts lurking in my hand.
So...ANT takes a hit, and we might see more Ancient Tombs? I'm okay with that. I guess we just have to see what else pops up because of GM's unbanning.
Reanimator has taken a hit by losing Mystical Tutor, yes? That might be a good thing. And there's nothing I'd like to see more than people shocking themselves with their lands!
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Standard: UR Guttersnipe & Talrand
Modern: U Merfolk (in progress)
Legacy: RBurn
haven't read through all the pages, but i noticed that Rolling Earthquake is missing from the primer. It's major money but the fact that it can do things against faeries and the occasional tombstalker that regular earthquake can't (and it burns) should list it as at least an option.
Hi fellow burn players, just want to share my experience last GP Manila Legacy Side event. There were 127 legacy players!!!
Went 3-4.
Won against Zoo 2- 0; UW Thopter Combo 2 -1, Jace ulti me on game 1 :), Red Stompy 2 -1
Lost to UW Fish 2 - 1, winning PoP got counterspelled, Slivers 2 -1, he got a muscle sliver on top, I bolt him, he draw it via SDT and countered my bolt by counterbalance, then I PoP him FTW...sweeeet...Landstill 2 -1, IVORY MASK!!! I got ensnaring bridge so his manlands cannot attack but the only outs over mask are PoP and Vortex and he has counters ready... Zoo 2 - 1, COP RED!!!never drew the needle, loss the race...
Learned some lessons, had some great moments as well...With this deck, got to finish the rounds early to get something to eat, get to check other tables play out, it was fun!!!
if I don't draw shard volley, the game is over before I have four mountains in play. When I do draw shard volley, hate to drop down to two mountains in the event I need to play a vortex or sweep the board. So, I end up sitting on it until my opponent is in range or I have no choice but to use it to save myself. So, it's sort of a dead draw for the first several turns.
Howdy. I just played Legacy burn for the first time yesterday, and I had a great time. Thanks to the thread founders and posters for all of the ideas and advice. I went 3-0-1 in the Swiss, then got crushed in the top 8.
Round 1 vs. UWb combo, 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Dredge, 2-1. After being blown out in game one, I had a very good game two and squeaked out a win in game 3. I had sideboarded in 4 Faerie Macabre and 2 Relic of Progenitus, and in games 2 and 3 I saw 2 of the Faeries and 1 Relic.
Round 3 vs. Belcher. Believe it or not, 2-1. In game two my opponent 'belched for 1. In game three, we both took mulligans to 5, and I top-decked better from a landless hand (!) than he did.
Round 4 vs. Team America. ID.
I got paired in the top 8 against the same Dredge player from round 2, who absolutely crushed me 2-0. I was never in either game, and I think we were both surprised.
I had a great time, and I'm a convert to Legacy. Thanks guys and gals!
I played the Showcase Burn list with some minor alterations to the main deck and sideboard yesterday. The tournament was a 13 man Grand Prix trial, I went 1-3. Indeed, not the best showing, and things could have gone a lot different if I hadn't made the worst misplay of my life round 2.
My matchups were:
Round 1: ANT 2-1. I actually thought this would be my worst match-up, but it ended up being the only match I'd win all day. He won the first game with only 6 life, if I'd have been holding another another instant speed Bolt he would have lost. Game 2 he lost due to having to play through a Chalice of the Void set to 0 and then a Mindbreak Trap when he actually did combo off. Game 3 was extremely close, there was a chance he could have managed to storm enough for the win, but a Sulfuric Vortex on my side and a misplayed Mystical Tutor on his secured the game for me.
Round 2: New Horizons 1-2: This should have been a decent match-up, but I misplayed terribly game 2. Game one was fairly even until the very end. He had a Goyf and a Knight of the Reliquary in play and was at 7, but a pair of Fireblasts got through for the win. Game 2 I sided in REB and Pithing Needle, but I only thought of REB as a counterspell/anti-counterspell. He dropped a Rhox War Monk and I held an REB until it was too late for me to realize my mistake. Game 3 he simply outplayed me.
Round 3: Merfolk 1-2: This matchup proved to be my absolute hardest. I managed to win game 1 due to him mulliganing to 5, and me getting a very fast hand. Games 2 and 3 I sided in Pithing Needle and REB to fight Aether Vial and his army of fish but I just never had enough juice to win before he did. I also never say a Volcanic Fallout.
Round 4: Belcher 1-2: This is definitely the hardest match-up for burn in general, but my games were very close. Game 1 he couldn't Belcher me for the win the first time, and by the time he could get enough mana to do it again, I'd beaten him. Game 2 he Burning Wished into Shattering Spree to kill both a Chalice of the Void and a Pithing Needle. He then Belchered for the win on his following turn, still managed to get him to 5. Game 3 I ended up mulliganing to 4 and didn't see any hate. He ETW for I believe 12 on the first turn, I scooped.
I will be taking this deck to the StarCityGames tournament in St. Louis on the 27th. I'll be adding in another Volcanic Fallout either mainboard or sideboard, and I may go up to 3 Mindbreak Trap in the side. The deck feels powerful but just didn't get me there.
I still question Mindbreak Trap. Is it a better option against ANT now that they don't have Mystical Tutor. Perhaps they are less likely in pulling out a chant to use against us. But I still question it's value.
I still question Mindbreak Trap. Is it a better option against ANT now that they don't have Mystical Tutor. Perhaps they are less likely in pulling out a chant to use against us. But I still question it's value.
Would love to be proven wrong.
ANT is dead.
All the talk in the ANT form is about what other storm combo to switch to...
There seems, to me, there is no better answer to combo than Mindbreak Trap. It's answered so often and it completely wrecks their plan. Even agains Belcher you can use it as a single counterspell against the Belcher itself. If ANT is dead then it will be a little less useful, but I'm still keeping two sided.
There seems, to me, there is no better answer to combo than Mindbreak Trap. It's answered so often and it completely wrecks their plan. Even agains Belcher you can use it as a single counterspell against the Belcher itself. If ANT is dead then it will be a little less useful, but I'm still keeping two sided.
Dunno if 2 will do you any good. Mindbreak Trap is like Leyline of the Void - if it's not in your opening hand, chances are it won't do you any good. I think you have to go 4 or nothing with it.
As a connoisseur of fun, interesting matches, I still to this day have not been able to craft that "perfect deck"; the deck that I can play and have fun over time, doesn't get boring, but simultaneously is fun to play against. I honestly don't think it exists. It's like a unicorn. A ninja unicorn.
Can someone validate or counterargue the notion of putting Blood Moon into the sideboard for many of your trouble matchups? Even though it will only come down turn 3, there are decks that merely concede if they do not have an answer in hand for it. Also notable is that fact that it can be brought in game 2 to deny an opponent mana, the left out game 3 on the draw while your opponent sideboards incorrectly and lowers their consistency to deal with it.
but these may all be moot points. I've been a burn player for years and have a good grasp on the format. But I usually play burn in extended or standard, and do not have a ton of experience with the deck in legacy.
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Millennium Games with the Cyberstorm Lounge
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We simply have better options than blood moon. We can't power it out turn one like Dragon Stompy can and by the time it gets down, it doesn't make that big of a difference.
What would we use it for anyway?
Zoo? --They don't care if they have mountains cuz their burn still works and they have already dropped a tarmogoyf.
Combo? --We've already lost
Threshold? --Counterspell and they already have their beaters in place.
Reanimator? Already lost
Anything else we already have a good matchup against.
Plus it is a bad topdeck late game. If it doesn't deal damage I don't want to draw it. Any specific hate should be got in the opener and from there on out, I want damage spells.
But I did notice that one very iconic burn spell fails to be mentioned anywhere in the primer - Ball Lightning.
Is there a reason it wasn't even considered? What are your (and everyone else's) opinions on it?
I love ball lightning when it gets in there, but after you turn your opponent's Shock into a Time Walk you realize how bad it is... this applies to all sorts of removal spells. Path to Exile is now a time walk, Condemn is now a time walk. Spend one mana and you get a free turn. It sucks... bad. One great thing about burn is that it makes your opponent's creature removal dead draws. If they're top decking and pull a removal spell, you get a time walk for free. Besides, who has room for it anyway?
I love ball lightning when it gets in there, but after you turn your opponent's Shock into a Time Walk you realize how bad it is... this applies to all sorts of removal spells. Path to Exile is now a time walk, Condemn is now a time walk. Spend one mana and you get a free turn. It sucks... bad. One great thing about burn is that it makes your opponent's creature removal dead draws. If they're top decking and pull a removal spell, you get a time walk for free. Besides, who has room for it anyway?
Fair enough, I think that the OP should be updated with this info, though, since it is technically a card one could be considering.
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Although always playing a deck I think is fun, I'm also always trying to win the tournament.
Currently playing: M13 Draft GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD) GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
Quote from Jon Finkel »
Occasional Player? Hold on, because we're sending a Level 3 judge over to your house to kick you in the balls right now! -With Love, WOTC
The only "creatures" that are good in Burn are actually direct damage Burn spells that happen to have the creature type. To make the cut, they need to further the goals of VCA and risk spreading, thus improving the deck's inevitability. Creatures like Grim Lavamancer and Jackal Pup invalidate Burn's VCA edge and deck concept. This doesn't mean that the cards are bad as such - just that they don't belong in Burn.
To making running "normal" creatures worthwhile, you first need to have a creature base that can compete with the opponent (such as Tarmogoyf), and run more powerful removal to make your strikers hit home (such as Path to Exile). The potential for such decks lies not in mono red. If efficient creatures is what you're after, look to Zoo and Goyf Sligh. The price you pay for going that route though, is that you become vulnerable to all those board control decks such as Landstill and 43 Land which Burn totally destroys.
The OP already covers creatures pretty extensively, I think. Hellspark Elemental is a bit of an exception, but I prefer not to use it, for the reasons above.
As a connoisseur of fun, interesting matches, I still to this day have not been able to craft that "perfect deck"; the deck that I can play and have fun over time, doesn't get boring, but simultaneously is fun to play against. I honestly don't think it exists. It's like a unicorn. A ninja unicorn.
IMO it should be included in the "why other burn spells are bad", because it would definitely come to mind if someone was making the switch from Standard/Extended RDW/Burn to Legacy Burn (like myself.)
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Although always playing a deck I think is fun, I'm also always trying to win the tournament.
Currently playing: M13 Draft GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD) GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
Quote from Jon Finkel »
Occasional Player? Hold on, because we're sending a Level 3 judge over to your house to kick you in the balls right now! -With Love, WOTC
ANT is dead as a deck, I'm personally looking at other storm combo decks to replace ANT with like SI, TES, and doomsday fetchland tendrils. They can function without mystical tutor; ANT cannot seeing as how it plays a bunch of one ofs like AN, bounce, hate bear kill like deathmark.
The people who play ANT seem to think it is. Let's not give them any ideas, should you have any... haha...
Combustion cannot be countered by a spell or an ability
Combustion deals 5 damage to target white or blue creature. The damage can't be prevented.
Just wanted to get this one sorted out right away on playability. Has some uses against control-heavy matchups, but I can't think of any truly scary creature we can kill with it since Goyf is green
Maaaaybe sideboard in a merfolk-filled meta? Unlikely overall but maybe I'm forgetting something. Also hit war monk, that's cool.
I'm giving it a nay with these things considered, does anyone have another point to add?
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Standard: UR Guttersnipe & Talrand
Modern: U Merfolk (in progress)
Legacy: RBurn
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(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Modern: U Merfolk (in progress)
Legacy: RBurn
Are you ever disappointed with shard volley? Every time I draw it, I wish it was something else...
Went 3-4.
Won against Zoo 2- 0; UW Thopter Combo 2 -1, Jace ulti me on game 1 :), Red Stompy 2 -1
Lost to UW Fish 2 - 1, winning PoP got counterspelled, Slivers 2 -1, he got a muscle sliver on top, I bolt him, he draw it via SDT and countered my bolt by counterbalance, then I PoP him FTW...sweeeet...Landstill 2 -1, IVORY MASK!!! I got ensnaring bridge so his manlands cannot attack but the only outs over mask are PoP and Vortex and he has counters ready... Zoo 2 - 1, COP RED!!!never drew the needle, loss the race...
Learned some lessons, had some great moments as well...With this deck, got to finish the rounds early to get something to eat, get to check other tables play out, it was fun!!!
Round 1 vs. UWb combo, 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Dredge, 2-1. After being blown out in game one, I had a very good game two and squeaked out a win in game 3. I had sideboarded in 4 Faerie Macabre and 2 Relic of Progenitus, and in games 2 and 3 I saw 2 of the Faeries and 1 Relic.
Round 3 vs. Belcher. Believe it or not, 2-1. In game two my opponent 'belched for 1. In game three, we both took mulligans to 5, and I top-decked better from a landless hand (!) than he did.
Round 4 vs. Team America. ID.
I got paired in the top 8 against the same Dredge player from round 2, who absolutely crushed me 2-0. I was never in either game, and I think we were both surprised.
I had a great time, and I'm a convert to Legacy. Thanks guys and gals!
My matchups were:
Round 1: ANT 2-1. I actually thought this would be my worst match-up, but it ended up being the only match I'd win all day. He won the first game with only 6 life, if I'd have been holding another another instant speed Bolt he would have lost. Game 2 he lost due to having to play through a Chalice of the Void set to 0 and then a Mindbreak Trap when he actually did combo off. Game 3 was extremely close, there was a chance he could have managed to storm enough for the win, but a Sulfuric Vortex on my side and a misplayed Mystical Tutor on his secured the game for me.
Round 2: New Horizons 1-2: This should have been a decent match-up, but I misplayed terribly game 2. Game one was fairly even until the very end. He had a Goyf and a Knight of the Reliquary in play and was at 7, but a pair of Fireblasts got through for the win. Game 2 I sided in REB and Pithing Needle, but I only thought of REB as a counterspell/anti-counterspell. He dropped a Rhox War Monk and I held an REB until it was too late for me to realize my mistake. Game 3 he simply outplayed me.
Round 3: Merfolk 1-2: This matchup proved to be my absolute hardest. I managed to win game 1 due to him mulliganing to 5, and me getting a very fast hand. Games 2 and 3 I sided in Pithing Needle and REB to fight Aether Vial and his army of fish but I just never had enough juice to win before he did. I also never say a Volcanic Fallout.
Round 4: Belcher 1-2: This is definitely the hardest match-up for burn in general, but my games were very close. Game 1 he couldn't Belcher me for the win the first time, and by the time he could get enough mana to do it again, I'd beaten him. Game 2 he Burning Wished into Shattering Spree to kill both a Chalice of the Void and a Pithing Needle. He then Belchered for the win on his following turn, still managed to get him to 5. Game 3 I ended up mulliganing to 4 and didn't see any hate. He ETW for I believe 12 on the first turn, I scooped.
I will be taking this deck to the StarCityGames tournament in St. Louis on the 27th. I'll be adding in another Volcanic Fallout either mainboard or sideboard, and I may go up to 3 Mindbreak Trap in the side. The deck feels powerful but just didn't get me there.
Would love to be proven wrong.
ANT is dead.
All the talk in the ANT form is about what other storm combo to switch to...
Dunno if 2 will do you any good. Mindbreak Trap is like Leyline of the Void - if it's not in your opening hand, chances are it won't do you any good. I think you have to go 4 or nothing with it.
As long as Ad Nauseam and Tendrils of Agony is legal ANT is not dead.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
sinx sinx + cosx cosx = 1
Sin2x= 2 sinx cosx
Cos2x= cosx cosx - sinx sinx
Cos(x+y)= cosx cosy - sinx siny
Sin(x+y)= sinx cosy + siny cosx
Know your Math do your math!
Trade thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8137863#post8137863
but these may all be moot points. I've been a burn player for years and have a good grasp on the format. But I usually play burn in extended or standard, and do not have a ton of experience with the deck in legacy.
Millennium Games with the Cyberstorm Lounge
3047 West Henrietta Road
Rochester NY 14623
585-427-2190
www.Cyberstormgaming.com
What would we use it for anyway?
Zoo? --They don't care if they have mountains cuz their burn still works and they have already dropped a tarmogoyf.
Combo? --We've already lost
Threshold? --Counterspell and they already have their beaters in place.
Reanimator? Already lost
Anything else we already have a good matchup against.
Plus it is a bad topdeck late game. If it doesn't deal damage I don't want to draw it. Any specific hate should be got in the opener and from there on out, I want damage spells.
But I did notice that one very iconic burn spell fails to be mentioned anywhere in the primer - Ball Lightning.
Is there a reason it wasn't even considered? What are your (and everyone else's) opinions on it?
Currently playing:
M13 Draft
GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD)
GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I love ball lightning when it gets in there, but after you turn your opponent's Shock into a Time Walk you realize how bad it is... this applies to all sorts of removal spells. Path to Exile is now a time walk, Condemn is now a time walk. Spend one mana and you get a free turn. It sucks... bad. One great thing about burn is that it makes your opponent's creature removal dead draws. If they're top decking and pull a removal spell, you get a time walk for free. Besides, who has room for it anyway?
Fair enough, I think that the OP should be updated with this info, though, since it is technically a card one could be considering.
Currently playing:
M13 Draft
GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD)
GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
The OP already covers creatures pretty extensively, I think. Hellspark Elemental is a bit of an exception, but I prefer not to use it, for the reasons above.
Currently playing:
M13 Draft
GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD)
GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
The people who play ANT seem to think it is. Let's not give them any ideas, should you have any... haha...
Combustion
1R
Instant
Combustion cannot be countered by a spell or an ability
Combustion deals 5 damage to target white or blue creature. The damage can't be prevented.
Just wanted to get this one sorted out right away on playability. Has some uses against control-heavy matchups, but I can't think of any truly scary creature we can kill with it since Goyf is green
Maaaaybe sideboard in a merfolk-filled meta? Unlikely overall but maybe I'm forgetting something. Also hit war monk, that's cool.
I'm giving it a nay with these things considered, does anyone have another point to add?
Modern: U Merfolk (in progress)
Legacy: RBurn