Sorry if I'm spamming without need, but you seem the type to answer my question. I'm playing Burn for a while now and I haven't found an efficient way of dealing with Extirpate besides biding my time and then hitting for 11-12 life in one turn. Since most of the cards here come in 3s or 4s it does hurt somewhat.
EDIT: Or can you just discard Faerie Macabre in response?
Wait, what? Why are you worried about Extirpate? It doesn't really do anything to us - strip us of a card in hand, if they're lucky, but Duress does that too, and we don't really care about it...
Discarding Faerie Macabre is an activated ability, so yeah, Split Second stops it.
For the record: I wasn't suggesting Goblin Arsonist for the list - somebody said something about "I would still love to see a "new" old school functioning mog fanatic," and I pointed out that Arsonist is basically Fanatic adjusted for combat damage not using the stack. The inability to sacrifice itself on command ruins it for burn.
As a connoisseur of fun, interesting matches, I still to this day have not been able to craft that "perfect deck"; the deck that I can play and have fun over time, doesn't get boring, but simultaneously is fun to play against. I honestly don't think it exists. It's like a unicorn. A ninja unicorn.
YES I have a lot of graveyard hate. I need help in the Dredge matchup, what else can I say?
If you want help with Dredge and refrain from Barbarian Ring, I can heartily second weltkrieg's Hellspark Elemental recommendation. You're also better off running Volcanic Fallout over Flamebreak if you want more help against Ichorid. With Hellspark, Marauders and Fallout in the main + Macabre and Keg in the SB, the Dredge MU should be pretty even for you.
I think you should seriously consider running Smash to Smithereens in the SB. It's probably THE card that hits Chalice :S
If Chalice removal is what you want, Powder Keg will do just as well. Comparing StS to Shattering Spree, StS has a few advantages but CotV resilience isn't one of them. Against a rare CotV@2, SS is better. StS shines at taking out a Jitte that's played and equipped in the same turn before it gets counters and taking out a Scepter/Chant lock. Both these functions are however also handled by Pithing Needle, and it also covers Zuran Orb, which StS can't handle. To me StS is too narrow hate to merit SB inclusion - but if your meta is full of artifact targets, seize the opportunity and play StS in the main.
Here is my current list. How does it look? I'm open to suggestions.
Your list is pretty similar to the alternate build in the primer, but a bit less synergistic - I'll try to explain why:
*Like the alternate build, you've chosen to rely on Barbarian Ring over Hellspark Elemental to get that last bit of damage. That's fine, but then you should ideally optimize for running Barbarian Ring. This means:
*Playing Flames of the Blood Hand over Sulfuric Vortex. FotBH has the advantage over SV in some situations, such as negating Zuran Orb out of the blue, or not being vulnerable to sudden removal + attack w/ jitte. It's also better than SV in a Barbarian Ring build where you need threshold. Play three for more consistency than running a MD 2-of.
*Speaking of which, play 3 Barbarian Ring too. You want to see one every late game, and getting 2 if you play 3 is only a 4% risk anyway.
*You really can play 4 Shard Volley - many have done so in their builds in the past. It's even more recommended that you do it in a BRing build since they help build Threshold and can eat extra BRings as well. Running 20 lands with 3 Fireblast, 3 BRing (17 Mountain) and 4 Shard Volley is optimal.
Thus I suggest:
-1 Mountain
+1 Barbarian Ring
-2 Sulfuric Vortex
+3 Flames of the Blood Hand
-2 Incinerate
+1 Shard Volley
This leaves you with a rather dorky 1x Incinerate, which could be a 4th PoP, 4th Flamebreak, 4th FotBH or 4th Magma Jet instead - depending on what you prefer.
Basically, such a build goes all out maximizing t3-t4 wins, being able to pop BRing even on t4 with some consistency, but sacrifices the staying power of Hellspark/Vortex. It's best for an aggro meta with little Wasteland, where the extra speed could be worth it. This build has a worse Ichorid MU though, but you could always swap Flamebreak for Fallout to help this a bit (if you're OK with loosing some ground to Zoo instead).
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If you want help with Dredge and refrain from Barbarian Ring, I can heartily second weltkrieg's Hellspark Elemental recommendation. You're also better off running Volcanic Fallout over Flamebreak if you want more help against Ichorid. With Hellspark, Marauders and Fallout in the main + Macabre and Keg in the SB, the Dredge MU should be pretty even for you.
If Chalice removal is what you want, Powder Keg will do just as well. Comparing StS to Shattering Spree, StS has a few advantages but CotV resilience isn't one of them. Against a rare CotV@2, SS is better. StS shines at taking out a Jitte that's played and equipped in the same turn before it gets counters and taking out a Scepter/Chant lock. Both these functions are however also handled by Pithing Needle, and it also covers Zuran Orb, which StS can't handle. To me StS is too narrow hate to merit SB inclusion - but if your meta is full of artifact targets, seize the opportunity and play StS in the main.
I updated my list a little. Any suggestions? Should I still run Spark?
I may go 2 Fallout 1 Flamebreak in case of Zoo, but Zoo isn't popular around here...
Ah yes, I forgot Keg kills Artifacts (it's a new tech for me). Should I maybe replace my SB'd Smash with a Disks then?
depends on your meta, really. can you describe it with some rough percentages? disk is better against permanent happy opponents where you can't deal otherwise.
the keg is likewise pretty good against zoo.
1 deals with their early drops
2 deals with their goyfs+pridemages
3 deals with really big pain
you get the idea.
disk might be better against a lot of counter top. it dodges the balance a lot at cmc 3 and blows it and everything else there to smoking hell.
Anyway, doesn't Extirpate strip you of an entire spell altogether, hand-wise and deck-wise?
Not really. You cast Lightning Bolt, it goes on the stack. Opp responds with Extirpate, exiling Bolt from your GY - but this doesn't affect its resolution at all so he'll still take 3. Then he searches your hand. Unless you have additional copies of Lightning Bolt on hand, you loose nothing from this. He then searches your library, taking away 2-3 copies of Lightning Bolt from it, then shuffles. This only marginally decreases your top deck threat density, and may screw you on Magma Jet's scry, but that's about it.
All in all, Extirpate will do less than Duress against Burn. It's not even a guranteed 1-for-1, and even using it means you got to cast the Extirpated spell anyway, so it can't really prevent anything.
Has anyone else noticed that Price of Progress gives us an amazing Affinity match?
Yup, that's nice So is taking out their board with Powder Keg post board.
I updated my list a little. Any suggestions? Should I still run Spark?
Since you ask, I think the weakest link in your 60 right now is Browbeat. Speculating a bit, I think the reason you like them is because you run nothing to extend your game into turns 5-6 (Sulfuric Vortex, Hellspark Elemental, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge - you run nothing of the sort) - and then it feels kind of nice to draw 3 off Browbeat because you essentially get to postpone your win into turn 5-6 at times, and then it feels like you're accomplishing something with your mana every turn.
I think you're much better off running more burn with some built in staying power, than a conditional draw spell that gives you a false sense of mana curve efficiency. If Ichorid is problematic, Hellspark Elemental would be my go-to choice. Just swap Browbeat for sparks and see how you like it
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Since you ask, I think the weakest link in your 60 right now is Browbeat. Speculating a bit, I think the reason you like them is because you run nothing to extend your game into turns 5-6 (Sulfuric Vortex, Hellspark Elemental, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge - you run nothing of the sort) - and then it feels kind of nice to draw 3 off Browbeat because you essentially get to postpone your win into turn 5-6 at times, and then it feels like you're accomplishing something with your mana every turn.
I think you're much better off running more burn with some built in staying power, than a conditional draw spell that gives you a false sense of mana curve efficiency. If Ichorid is problematic, Hellspark Elemental would be my go-to choice. Just swap Browbeat for sparks and see how you like it
Well, I'll test it. I'm still a Browbeat fan, but you're probably right. Besides, you are the Burn master >.<
Just curious, has anyone thought of running Fork over REB in the SB? It gets around the common Chalice @ 1 play, and Counters a Counter, as well as copying kill cards/Artifact destruction.
Maybe I'm just using REB wrong, but I generally save it for a Counterspel on a big play of mine.
urdjur excellent primer bud! Sorry I didn't help with compiling any info or even posting lately, but I've been extremely busy. I'm just glad us burn players have someone like you to take the helm and set up a shiny new thread for us! I'm still testing for GP Columbus and made some minor tweaks to my Sports Car Burn. Here is my current list for those interested;
Macabre is the correct GY hate spell to use in the SB. Just like Pithing Needle is the correct catch-all card to use in the SB. As is REB vs. Blue, those 9 spots are now staples IMO. I am still not sold on Keg (sometimes it becomes situational, being able to take out only one or two things, and its sometimes slow when u need 3-4 turns to build up counters...) and Disk (which I have always thought to be too slow, and I've never used a 4 cost card in my competitive burn...ever...so i tend to shy away from it). I have come back to Bridge as my answer to Zoo, although I dropped Flamebreak (5 Sweep MD is a bit much) from the main, I like the bridge surprise and versatility better. They never expect it and usually don't have the Pridemage or O-Ring to deal with it post board because they don't believe I play any artifacts. I am also completely sold with SS as the answer to artifacts and although more specific than Keg or Disk, I like the job it does. Still don't need combo hate imo either, not until Wizards gives us a better combo hating card than Pillar. Shusher was the last card I cut from the SB, it is just too narrow, FUN but narrow.
Yeah I have been thinking the same thing on disk and Keg myself. While I can definately see the use for keg, I just see no real reason to dedicate up to 8 cards to things that basically have the same effect. I much rather choose one over the other if anything. I dunno though if ensnaring bridge deserves a spot here though. I dunno if it was discussed in the last thread, but why not Mindbreak trap in this deck? Seems it could totally hose ANT and storm decks if played right as they commit to their kill, especially if they are at 2 or less cards.
Just curious, has anyone thought of running Fork over REB in the SB? It gets around the common Chalice @ 1 play, and Counters a Counter, as well as copying kill cards/Artifact destruction.
Maybe I'm just using REB wrong, but I generally save it for a Counterspel on a big play of mine.
Using REB/Fork to back up your Burn spells is a luxury. That Fork/REB could just as well be another Burn spell instead of countering the counter to your first burn spell. Yes, it's a bit better to back up your Fireblast *IF* a counter comes, than to just play an Incinerate, but the gain is so marginal as to not merit a SB slot. The real reason to run REB is to handle Counterbalance, kill Rhox War Monk, Chill and counter combo stuff like Mystic Tutor. Being able to counter counters just ensures that they will always be useful against anything Blue, which is a nice cherry on the top.
Here is my current list for those interested
Looks interesting Two questions:
1) How has 3x Hellspark Elemental been together with 2x Barbarian Ring? I've lately started to consider a split between them, and I've nevery actually tested a list with both. I just dismissed it as suboptimal by inspection since you wouldn't want to unearth HE when trying to build threshold for BR, and they both fill pretty similar roles as "reach" against counter/discard. Do you find yourself passing on good opportunities to unearth HE because you want to BR first - has it ever been a problem?
2) Have you tried Flames of the Blood Hand instead of Sulfuric Vortex at all? Lately I'm finding that Vortex isn't really negating life gain that effectively. D&T can Flickerwisp/ORing it and then just use their Jitte counters anyway. Survival can tutor for Pridemage and then attack with RWM anyway. Landstill can remove it and then end the game with a massive Zuran Orb.
This is not to say that this will always happen, but in all these examples, a more unexpected FotBH could have been better. FotBH has a few more subtle advantages too. It makes it easier to leave Fallout mana open on turn 3 - useful for example against Merfolk where you don't know if a t4 Jitte or t4 lord#2 is going to hit the board. It's better with Barbarian Ring obviously, and also a better top deck than Vortex when you want to finish the opponent.
I still think Sulfuric Vortex is a stellar card in the deck. I'm just wondering how FotBH really compares tactically. Vortex looks so much better on paper though.
I dunno if it was discussed in the last thread, but why not Mindbreak trap in this deck? Seems it could totally hose ANT and storm decks if played right as they commit to their kill, especially if they are at 2 or less cards.
See the primer, spoiler on weaker sideboard options. Basically, Chant/Silence/Duress/Thoughtseize >> Mindbreak Trap. REB, Faerie Macabre and lots of burn are better against ANT (see the ANT/TES/NLS spoiler in the match-up section).
As for the other SB options, I think Ensnaring Bridge could be an OK alternative to Powder Keg as an anti-aggro "catch-all" option. It won't handle quick token swarms as early, nor will it kill Chalice - so you loose some functionality their. OTOH, it's good against bigger lifegain creatures in much the same way as Sulfuric Vortex. I prefer Keg though.
Disk has a completely different function than Powder Keg, as its main function is enchantment removal. In most MUs where Keg is useful, Disk is simply too slow. Running Disk or not is a simple as deciding if you want an answer to a resolved CounterTop, Sphere of Law, Solitary Confinement etc. - or if you'll simply skimp on that bit. I'd rather not.
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1) How has 3x Hellspark Elemental been together with 2x Barbarian Ring? I've lately started to consider a split between them, and I've nevery actually tested a list with both. I just dismissed it as suboptimal by inspection since you wouldn't want to unearth HE when trying to build threshold for BR, and they both fill pretty similar roles as "reach" against counter/discard. Do you find yourself passing on good opportunities to unearth HE because you want to BR first - has it ever been a problem?
2) Have you tried Flames of the Blood Hand instead of Sulfuric Vortex at all? Lately I'm finding that Vortex isn't really negating life gain that effectively. D&T can Flickerwisp/ORing it and then just use their Jitte counters anyway. Survival can tutor for Pridemage and then attack with RWM anyway. Landstill can remove it and then end the game with a massive Zuran Orb.
This is not to say that this will always happen, but in all these examples, a more unexpected FotBH could have been better. FotBH has a few more subtle advantages too. It makes it easier to leave Fallout mana open on turn 3 - useful for example against Merfolk where you don't know if a t4 Jitte or t4 lord#2 is going to hit the board. It's better with Barbarian Ring obviously, and also a better top deck than Vortex when you want to finish the opponent.
I still think Sulfuric Vortex is a stellar card in the deck. I'm just wondering how FotBH really compares tactically. Vortex looks so much better on paper though.
1.) I don't mind using both at all. They both provide reach and I like having the Rings there when I side out HE on occasion. Ive had the problem happen once where I needed to do both to win but only had enough mana available to do one or the other. This same situation was discussed when using both Grim Lavamancer and Barbarian Ring in RDW/Sligh. I don't usually have a problem with it. I still think the risk is spread evenly enough that they don't ever interact that inconsistent with each other.
2.) I have not test FotBH...but now that you mention it I will. I've always been fond of Vortex, but both should work. I just hate getting beat by stupid lifegain, but is there enough consistent lifegain to warrant Vortex? FotBH isn't a permanent so it increases our VCA and it shuts of the various one shot life gainers in an unexpected fashion...however you have to be able to play it when they try to lifegain, so its definitely a metagame call. It all depends on what will be there. I would like to go through and discuss all the lifegaining options in Legacy play and see whether Vortex or FotBH are better options for each one.
I am going to be testing it on MWS and in my playgroup soon.
Well, again, since I play against Staxxx so much, I can say their life gain will be Nomad Stadium, Warmth, that morph angel or Baneslayer (but more the former if used at all), and now Transcendent Master. The last guy, as I have learned, can be a beast. Not sure how many are going to start using him, but you should keep him in mind.
Well, if you know there's going to be more combo/control and less aggro, tailor your deck accordingly. Fewer sweepers MD, more answers sided.
Practice what you're going to sideboard in and out for each matchup. That makes sure you don't make mistakes in the 3 minutes you have to sideboard during the tourney itself. Make sure you have a general idea of how to play each matchup.
As a connoisseur of fun, interesting matches, I still to this day have not been able to craft that "perfect deck"; the deck that I can play and have fun over time, doesn't get boring, but simultaneously is fun to play against. I honestly don't think it exists. It's like a unicorn. A ninja unicorn.
Masa88: That's the spirit - a good meta to test out the sideboard I'm really looking forward to hearing your results - especially about the "disputed" Keg and Disk slots, if you get an opportunity to SB, draw and use them.
I would like to go through and discuss all the lifegaining options in Legacy play and see whether Vortex or FotBH are better options for each one.
So would I. Here's a rough start:
Swords to Plowshares: Most common source of life gain, but not very relevant. FotBH is better if you have mana open (which we should assume you do, playing about 25 instants). Umezawa's Jitte: Second most common source of life gain? Against FotBH, they can just remove a counter to force you to use it, then use the other counters in response. Vortex needs to be handled, and them finding an answer before they die is far from certain. Vortex is clearly better here. Zuran Orb: Common answer in loam/crucible decks. Same problem as with Jitte - FotBH can only really stop one instance of LG, or 2 life. Advantage Vortex. Rhox War Monk: This includes other LG creatures and Sword of Light and Shadow (RWM is the fastest and most dangerous though). If you can finish them before they get to attack again, FotBH is better. If you need more time (likely if they stall with counters), Vortex is better. Again, if they waste time on finding an answer, they might not make it anyway. Nomad Stadium: Including other recursive LG. Same thing really, if you can finish them off with the swing that FotBH provides, it's better since it's faster. The plausability of this depends on which deck you find it in. Against 43 Land, sure. Against Landstill or even Stax, I'd rather have Vortex. Pulse of the Fields: To my knowledge, the only strict LG non-permanent run in Legacy today. There's a small chance that it they have time to cast it twice, even if they don't gain life the first time. And then, Vortex is superior.
Hmm... Unless I'm missing something, FotBH does seem a lot weaker for stopping life gain, except against Swords to Plowshares and other one-shot deals (that are not really played though). But maybe your testing will prove otherwise? I guess it just feels bad when Vortex gets handled - but we should really be happy that they had to waste resources on it. OTOH, FotBH is the better finisher in a vacuum - but Vortex is better in a drawn out game against control.
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Are there any good cards out there that are specifically good in a mirror match-up? My friends play a lot of (semi-casual) burn and it might be funny to anticipate on that and use their burn against them.
Well, if you want a non-competitive answer, there is always dragon's claw. If everyone is playing red decks, why not just gain some life off of em.
As far as the life gain question goes, it's a toughy. Another random one that I see in some zoo decks and especially bant survival is Kitchen Finks. Not as common but I still see them popping up. It is a card that is hard to beat cuz it requires to sweepers to get it to stop beating on you and it gains em the equivalent of a fireblast.
I have run into the problem quite frequently of having a fallout and vortex turn three with the conundrum of not knowing which one to play. FotBH would make the choice a lot easier. I am also a fan of the increased card advantage.
I will also test the hellspark and barbarian Ring together. I currently run incinerate in that HE slot and can switch em out. I don't foresee a problem although running vortex and hellspark in the same deck with barbarian ring doesn't look good to me. My suggestion would be if you run rings, don't run both vortex and hellspark.
Either hellspark, ring and FotBH,
OR Hellspark and Vortex,
OR Barbarian Ring and Vortex.
Are there any good cards out there that are specifically good in a mirror match-up? My friends play a lot of (semi-casual) burn and it might be funny to anticipate on that and use their burn against them.
Someone in the old topic used Dragon's Claw when he expected a bit o' burn in his meta and said it had great results.
Chain Lightning becomes way crazier for both sides.
I don't like it. The Rack for red? Nah. We aren't playing discard so Storm World won't come online till turn 4 or five. You might say that people play out their hands faster in legacy but think about it. We have the virtual card advantage that burn is so famous for. SO, that means they have all that removal and answer cards for other decks IN THEIR HAND. This makes storm world even less effective.
Plus it is a bad topdeck. I rarely see players drop below 3 cards in hand in a legacy matchup which means it's maybe a bad shock.
Oh there will be Merfolks and goblins so I don't think it's so good of an idea to cut the sweepers away. But today I tested against some of the decks, like against Goblins, Merfolks and enchantress with sideboards. Enchantress was horrible. I won the first but lost second and third, didn't even see Nevinyrral's disk, thought it wouldn't have helped (he had aura of silence and seal of primordium in battlefield). Merfolk was UW version with Sejiri merfolk (it really works, believe me!), and got raped by lifegain -.- second game was close, but I ended topdecking Powder keg when I needed anything that deals damage, so it was basically bad luck. Goblins won the first round, but lost second and third due the Powder keg (Keg at 3 is nice in lategame, as he had 2 chieftains in battlefield, and 1 of them and 2 goblin matrons in hand)
Hmmm... I knew there was a reason why I really like Bloodfire Dwarf its great creature that can knock out those nasty Argothian Enchantress early in the game and I think he's great against Goblins... I'm not sure about merfolk... (something to think about)
@ Thorhammer, I do feel the same but I was thinking about a mirror matchup with another burn deck... I was trying to keep them from using Smash to Smithereens by not playing an artifact...
@ BlackLeadAlchemist, Seal of Fire, Burst Lightning, Tarfire and Shock dont supply enough Boom! Most of the other burn spells listed is very cheap and you can replace the chain lightnings for Incinerate (since chains are 20 dollars each)
Wait, what? Why are you worried about Extirpate? It doesn't really do anything to us - strip us of a card in hand, if they're lucky, but Duress does that too, and we don't really care about it...
Discarding Faerie Macabre is an activated ability, so yeah, Split Second stops it.
For the record: I wasn't suggesting Goblin Arsonist for the list - somebody said something about "I would still love to see a "new" old school functioning mog fanatic," and I pointed out that Arsonist is basically Fanatic adjusted for combat damage not using the stack. The inability to sacrifice itself on command ruins it for burn.
Here is my current list. How does it look? I'm open to suggestions.
The sideboard is generic from the suggestions of the primer.
18 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring
Creatures
4 Keldon Marauders
Spells
3 Flamebreak
3 Shard Volley
3 Fireblast
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
3 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Magma Jet
4 Rift Bolt
3 Incinerate
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Red Elemental Blast
| U Merfolk | UR Delver Burn| B Reanimator| B Landless Dredge |
If you want help with Dredge and refrain from Barbarian Ring, I can heartily second weltkrieg's Hellspark Elemental recommendation. You're also better off running Volcanic Fallout over Flamebreak if you want more help against Ichorid. With Hellspark, Marauders and Fallout in the main + Macabre and Keg in the SB, the Dredge MU should be pretty even for you.
If Chalice removal is what you want, Powder Keg will do just as well. Comparing StS to Shattering Spree, StS has a few advantages but CotV resilience isn't one of them. Against a rare CotV@2, SS is better. StS shines at taking out a Jitte that's played and equipped in the same turn before it gets counters and taking out a Scepter/Chant lock. Both these functions are however also handled by Pithing Needle, and it also covers Zuran Orb, which StS can't handle. To me StS is too narrow hate to merit SB inclusion - but if your meta is full of artifact targets, seize the opportunity and play StS in the main.
Your list is pretty similar to the alternate build in the primer, but a bit less synergistic - I'll try to explain why:
*Like the alternate build, you've chosen to rely on Barbarian Ring over Hellspark Elemental to get that last bit of damage. That's fine, but then you should ideally optimize for running Barbarian Ring. This means:
*Playing Flames of the Blood Hand over Sulfuric Vortex. FotBH has the advantage over SV in some situations, such as negating Zuran Orb out of the blue, or not being vulnerable to sudden removal + attack w/ jitte. It's also better than SV in a Barbarian Ring build where you need threshold. Play three for more consistency than running a MD 2-of.
*Speaking of which, play 3 Barbarian Ring too. You want to see one every late game, and getting 2 if you play 3 is only a 4% risk anyway.
*You really can play 4 Shard Volley - many have done so in their builds in the past. It's even more recommended that you do it in a BRing build since they help build Threshold and can eat extra BRings as well. Running 20 lands with 3 Fireblast, 3 BRing (17 Mountain) and 4 Shard Volley is optimal.
Thus I suggest:
-1 Mountain
+1 Barbarian Ring
-2 Sulfuric Vortex
+3 Flames of the Blood Hand
-2 Incinerate
+1 Shard Volley
This leaves you with a rather dorky 1x Incinerate, which could be a 4th PoP, 4th Flamebreak, 4th FotBH or 4th Magma Jet instead - depending on what you prefer.
Basically, such a build goes all out maximizing t3-t4 wins, being able to pop BRing even on t4 with some consistency, but sacrifices the staying power of Hellspark/Vortex. It's best for an aggro meta with little Wasteland, where the extra speed could be worth it. This build has a worse Ichorid MU though, but you could always swap Flamebreak for Fallout to help this a bit (if you're OK with loosing some ground to Zoo instead).
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I updated my list a little. Any suggestions? Should I still run Spark?
I may go 2 Fallout 1 Flamebreak in case of Zoo, but Zoo isn't popular around here...
Ah yes, I forgot Keg kills Artifacts (it's a new tech for me). Should I maybe replace my SB'd Smash with a Disks then?
the keg is likewise pretty good against zoo.
1 deals with their early drops
2 deals with their goyfs+pridemages
3 deals with really big pain
you get the idea.
disk might be better against a lot of counter top. it dodges the balance a lot at cmc 3 and blows it and everything else there to smoking hell.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Has anyone else noticed that Price of Progress gives us an amazing Affinity match? If you're patient with it, you can easily hit for 8-10 damage.
Not really. You cast Lightning Bolt, it goes on the stack. Opp responds with Extirpate, exiling Bolt from your GY - but this doesn't affect its resolution at all so he'll still take 3. Then he searches your hand. Unless you have additional copies of Lightning Bolt on hand, you loose nothing from this. He then searches your library, taking away 2-3 copies of Lightning Bolt from it, then shuffles. This only marginally decreases your top deck threat density, and may screw you on Magma Jet's scry, but that's about it.
All in all, Extirpate will do less than Duress against Burn. It's not even a guranteed 1-for-1, and even using it means you got to cast the Extirpated spell anyway, so it can't really prevent anything.
Yup, that's nice So is taking out their board with Powder Keg post board.
Since you ask, I think the weakest link in your 60 right now is Browbeat. Speculating a bit, I think the reason you like them is because you run nothing to extend your game into turns 5-6 (Sulfuric Vortex, Hellspark Elemental, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge - you run nothing of the sort) - and then it feels kind of nice to draw 3 off Browbeat because you essentially get to postpone your win into turn 5-6 at times, and then it feels like you're accomplishing something with your mana every turn.
I think you're much better off running more burn with some built in staying power, than a conditional draw spell that gives you a false sense of mana curve efficiency. If Ichorid is problematic, Hellspark Elemental would be my go-to choice. Just swap Browbeat for sparks and see how you like it
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Well, I'll test it. I'm still a Browbeat fan, but you're probably right. Besides, you are the Burn master >.<
EDIT: HELLSPARK FTW
Updated list:
20 Mountain
Creatures: 7
4 Keldon Marauders
3 Hellspark Elemental
Spells: 33
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Shard Volley
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Faerie Macabre
Just curious, has anyone thought of running Fork over REB in the SB? It gets around the common Chalice @ 1 play, and Counters a Counter, as well as copying kill cards/Artifact destruction.
Maybe I'm just using REB wrong, but I generally save it for a Counterspel on a big play of mine.
17 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring
1 Shivan Gorge
Bolts (19)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Shard Volley
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
Crits (6)
3 Keldon Marauders
3 Hellspark Elemental
Utility (6)
3 Magma Jet
3 Sulfuric Vortex
Sweep (3)
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Shattering Spree
3 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Faerie Macabre
Macabre is the correct GY hate spell to use in the SB. Just like Pithing Needle is the correct catch-all card to use in the SB. As is REB vs. Blue, those 9 spots are now staples IMO. I am still not sold on Keg (sometimes it becomes situational, being able to take out only one or two things, and its sometimes slow when u need 3-4 turns to build up counters...) and Disk (which I have always thought to be too slow, and I've never used a 4 cost card in my competitive burn...ever...so i tend to shy away from it). I have come back to Bridge as my answer to Zoo, although I dropped Flamebreak (5 Sweep MD is a bit much) from the main, I like the bridge surprise and versatility better. They never expect it and usually don't have the Pridemage or O-Ring to deal with it post board because they don't believe I play any artifacts. I am also completely sold with SS as the answer to artifacts and although more specific than Keg or Disk, I like the job it does. Still don't need combo hate imo either, not until Wizards gives us a better combo hating card than Pillar. Shusher was the last card I cut from the SB, it is just too narrow, FUN but narrow.
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Using REB/Fork to back up your Burn spells is a luxury. That Fork/REB could just as well be another Burn spell instead of countering the counter to your first burn spell. Yes, it's a bit better to back up your Fireblast *IF* a counter comes, than to just play an Incinerate, but the gain is so marginal as to not merit a SB slot. The real reason to run REB is to handle Counterbalance, kill Rhox War Monk, Chill and counter combo stuff like Mystic Tutor. Being able to counter counters just ensures that they will always be useful against anything Blue, which is a nice cherry on the top.
Looks interesting Two questions:
1) How has 3x Hellspark Elemental been together with 2x Barbarian Ring? I've lately started to consider a split between them, and I've nevery actually tested a list with both. I just dismissed it as suboptimal by inspection since you wouldn't want to unearth HE when trying to build threshold for BR, and they both fill pretty similar roles as "reach" against counter/discard. Do you find yourself passing on good opportunities to unearth HE because you want to BR first - has it ever been a problem?
2) Have you tried Flames of the Blood Hand instead of Sulfuric Vortex at all? Lately I'm finding that Vortex isn't really negating life gain that effectively. D&T can Flickerwisp/ORing it and then just use their Jitte counters anyway. Survival can tutor for Pridemage and then attack with RWM anyway. Landstill can remove it and then end the game with a massive Zuran Orb.
This is not to say that this will always happen, but in all these examples, a more unexpected FotBH could have been better. FotBH has a few more subtle advantages too. It makes it easier to leave Fallout mana open on turn 3 - useful for example against Merfolk where you don't know if a t4 Jitte or t4 lord#2 is going to hit the board. It's better with Barbarian Ring obviously, and also a better top deck than Vortex when you want to finish the opponent.
I still think Sulfuric Vortex is a stellar card in the deck. I'm just wondering how FotBH really compares tactically. Vortex looks so much better on paper though.
See the primer, spoiler on weaker sideboard options. Basically, Chant/Silence/Duress/Thoughtseize >> Mindbreak Trap. REB, Faerie Macabre and lots of burn are better against ANT (see the ANT/TES/NLS spoiler in the match-up section).
As for the other SB options, I think Ensnaring Bridge could be an OK alternative to Powder Keg as an anti-aggro "catch-all" option. It won't handle quick token swarms as early, nor will it kill Chalice - so you loose some functionality their. OTOH, it's good against bigger lifegain creatures in much the same way as Sulfuric Vortex. I prefer Keg though.
Disk has a completely different function than Powder Keg, as its main function is enchantment removal. In most MUs where Keg is useful, Disk is simply too slow. Running Disk or not is a simple as deciding if you want an answer to a resolved CounterTop, Sphere of Law, Solitary Confinement etc. - or if you'll simply skimp on that bit. I'd rather not.
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1.) I don't mind using both at all. They both provide reach and I like having the Rings there when I side out HE on occasion. Ive had the problem happen once where I needed to do both to win but only had enough mana available to do one or the other. This same situation was discussed when using both Grim Lavamancer and Barbarian Ring in RDW/Sligh. I don't usually have a problem with it. I still think the risk is spread evenly enough that they don't ever interact that inconsistent with each other.
2.) I have not test FotBH...but now that you mention it I will. I've always been fond of Vortex, but both should work. I just hate getting beat by stupid lifegain, but is there enough consistent lifegain to warrant Vortex? FotBH isn't a permanent so it increases our VCA and it shuts of the various one shot life gainers in an unexpected fashion...however you have to be able to play it when they try to lifegain, so its definitely a metagame call. It all depends on what will be there. I would like to go through and discuss all the lifegaining options in Legacy play and see whether Vortex or FotBH are better options for each one.
I am going to be testing it on MWS and in my playgroup soon.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Practice what you're going to sideboard in and out for each matchup. That makes sure you don't make mistakes in the 3 minutes you have to sideboard during the tourney itself. Make sure you have a general idea of how to play each matchup.
Good luck!
So would I. Here's a rough start:
Swords to Plowshares: Most common source of life gain, but not very relevant. FotBH is better if you have mana open (which we should assume you do, playing about 25 instants).
Umezawa's Jitte: Second most common source of life gain? Against FotBH, they can just remove a counter to force you to use it, then use the other counters in response. Vortex needs to be handled, and them finding an answer before they die is far from certain. Vortex is clearly better here.
Zuran Orb: Common answer in loam/crucible decks. Same problem as with Jitte - FotBH can only really stop one instance of LG, or 2 life. Advantage Vortex.
Rhox War Monk: This includes other LG creatures and Sword of Light and Shadow (RWM is the fastest and most dangerous though). If you can finish them before they get to attack again, FotBH is better. If you need more time (likely if they stall with counters), Vortex is better. Again, if they waste time on finding an answer, they might not make it anyway.
Nomad Stadium: Including other recursive LG. Same thing really, if you can finish them off with the swing that FotBH provides, it's better since it's faster. The plausability of this depends on which deck you find it in. Against 43 Land, sure. Against Landstill or even Stax, I'd rather have Vortex.
Pulse of the Fields: To my knowledge, the only strict LG non-permanent run in Legacy today. There's a small chance that it they have time to cast it twice, even if they don't gain life the first time. And then, Vortex is superior.
Hmm... Unless I'm missing something, FotBH does seem a lot weaker for stopping life gain, except against Swords to Plowshares and other one-shot deals (that are not really played though). But maybe your testing will prove otherwise? I guess it just feels bad when Vortex gets handled - but we should really be happy that they had to waste resources on it. OTOH, FotBH is the better finisher in a vacuum - but Vortex is better in a drawn out game against control.
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As far as the life gain question goes, it's a toughy. Another random one that I see in some zoo decks and especially bant survival is Kitchen Finks. Not as common but I still see them popping up. It is a card that is hard to beat cuz it requires to sweepers to get it to stop beating on you and it gains em the equivalent of a fireblast.
I have run into the problem quite frequently of having a fallout and vortex turn three with the conundrum of not knowing which one to play. FotBH would make the choice a lot easier. I am also a fan of the increased card advantage.
I will also test the hellspark and barbarian Ring together. I currently run incinerate in that HE slot and can switch em out. I don't foresee a problem although running vortex and hellspark in the same deck with barbarian ring doesn't look good to me. My suggestion would be if you run rings, don't run both vortex and hellspark.
Either hellspark, ring and FotBH,
OR Hellspark and Vortex,
OR Barbarian Ring and Vortex.
Someone in the old topic used Dragon's Claw when he expected a bit o' burn in his meta and said it had great results.
Chain Lightning becomes way crazier for both sides.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Plus it is a bad topdeck. I rarely see players drop below 3 cards in hand in a legacy matchup which means it's maybe a bad shock.
Nope. I don't like it.
Hmmm... I knew there was a reason why I really like Bloodfire Dwarf its great creature that can knock out those nasty Argothian Enchantress early in the game and I think he's great against Goblins... I'm not sure about merfolk... (something to think about)
@ Thorhammer, I do feel the same but I was thinking about a mirror matchup with another burn deck... I was trying to keep them from using Smash to Smithereens by not playing an artifact...
@ BlackLeadAlchemist, Seal of Fire, Burst Lightning, Tarfire and Shock dont supply enough Boom! Most of the other burn spells listed is very cheap and you can replace the chain lightnings for Incinerate (since chains are 20 dollars each)
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
17 Mountain
3 Barbarian Ring
Creatures
4 Keldon Marauders
Spells
3 Fireblast
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bold
3 Flamebreak
4 Shard Volley
3 Flames of the Blood Hand
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Powder Keg
3 Pithing Needle
3 Faerie Macabre
I've put zero thought so far into the sideboard so it's still the generic one suggested in the primer.
Also, Flamebreak may be swapped for Volcanic Fallout depending on the meta I think I'll face.
So, what do you think of the main deck? Better than my last list maybe?
| U Merfolk | UR Delver Burn| B Reanimator| B Landless Dredge |