Burn

  • #3976
    All the introductory info is helpful. Most of the hate seems to come from enchantments and artifacts. I've run into Batterskull a few times in my limited testing online. I haven't seen anything too unusual yet. I still wonder about splashing another color, maybe white. Disenchant kills about every hate card while Swords to Plowshares is a broader answer than Phyrexian Metamorph. I don't know how tough it would be with Wastelands everywhere but, it certainly provides easier answers. Maybe some of the problem cards aren't common enough to need another color.
  • #3977
    Quote from crimhead
    Another thought on Reforge - if it turns out this is worth running (still dubious) we might want to run fetch lands for deck thinning alone. The more cards we draw the more significant that small increase in spell to land proportion becomes.

    More intuitively, if we get a fresh seven on t3 or t4 we don't want to see as many lands as we do on our opening seven. I'd think twelve to fourteen fetches would be right in a Reforge-heavy build.

    In the spirit of kirbysdl's sig, take out Mountains and or Barbarian Rings.


    Deck thinning has been proven to be more or less a myth. Really don't make much difference to be honest....

    As for the hate, there's hate against pretty much every single deck. It's just the way the game is designed IMO - I obviously do my best to try and minimize the damage but building a sideboard (or deck) to ONLY deal with potential hate is really not a very good way to build.
  • #3978
    I really don't think we want to be running that many answers for an answer because lots of times people arn't going to dedicate enough of their board to the specific hosers, and if they do dedicate the 4+ slots and feel comfortable mulligan down for them all that means is they prepared for the MU and respect the decks power and they more or less deserve the W.

    IF your board is just an answer for their potential answers you lose your decks focus and risk not having answers for some of the more unfair decks in the format


    Magic players have made it abundantly clear that their time is worth $0/hour in their opinion, so no sympathy there. -DR jeebus or something
  • #3979
    Aegis of Honor is really the most ridiculous hatecard against Burn; much more painful than Leyline, especially now that creature-heavy decks are seeing more popularity than spell-heavy ones.

    But if you see cards like Aegis, CoP:Red and Leyline in your meta SBs, then by all means run Chaos Warp or even Anarchy in your SB.

    Anyone been testing the Devil? Any results?
  • #3980
    Quote from markino
    Aegis of Honor is really the most ridiculous hatecard against Burn; much more painful than Leyline, especially now that creature-heavy decks are seeing more popularity than spell-heavy ones.

    But if you see cards like Aegis, CoP:Red and Leyline in your meta SBs, then by all means run Chaos Warp or even Anarchy in your SB.

    Anyone been testing the Devil? Any results?


    I agree that Aegis of Honor is pretty devastating, though I've seen very few people use it. If it starts to become a problem, Anarchy seems like the best choice - despite it's high casting cost. Could also take care of other problem enchantments at the same time, similar to the ones you mentioned above.

    As for the Vexing Devil, definitely so far so good... but to be honest I haven't tested him enough yet to adequately determine if he's worth the slot or not. I really need to test him more in large scale, a few games using him as a proxy with some friends isn't quite enough. That said, I have a feeling he'll become a staple once people realize how good he can be.
  • #3981
    Quote from Valkyries
    Deck thinning has been proven to be more or less a myth. Really don't make much difference to be honest....


    You might want to scrutinize that "proof". Deck thinning has been proved to be relatively insignificant compared to the dangers of running fetches over basics, but this is based on lower card draw estimates.

    Quote from Taldier
    The variety in Legacy is a variety of strategy. These Legacy decks play differently, not because of the cards you are using, but because of the thought process and lines of play that make each of them effective.
    Quote from Taldier
    WOTC's current hardline stance on Modern means they either have to completely avoid printing new cards that have any strong interactions with cards in the Modern card pool, or else keep banning more cards.


    Playing:
    URG Lands.dec
    RGW Enchantress
    BG Elves
    U High Tide
    B Pox
    Ø Dredge
    R Burn
    UB Affinity
    RGWU Cheeri0s

    WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
    B EDH Relentless Rats



  • #3982
    Testing the devil and it's awesome... My friends hate the card Smile
  • #3983
    Quote from Grokh
    So what do you think of Wrath with your deck ? Does the 4 Magma jet help to touch the Wraths ? Is there a lot of really bad hands with 2 Wraths in ?

    Would u keep ur deck like this or would you make some changes ?


    I liked Wrath and in solitaire testing further (haven't been able to test further with my group) I think in my build 2 Flame Rift, 2 Thunderous Wrath is good. It's nice to be able to queue it up with Magma Jet. As burn players we can take the mulligan to six easily; we're top decking a touch earlier but it's not the end of the world. I've been operating on "Thunderous Wrath in hand on initial draw, auto-mulligan" so far. It's popped up in my six card initial draws a few times, which again I've been auto-mulling. Going to five stings, and it's not much fun.
    RK
  • #3984
    The problem with Wrath is you want to see if off the draw step, and not in the opener. If you run fewer, the problem is that while you see fewer in the opener, you'll also see fewer off the draw step. It doesn't change the fact that over the course of many games, you're going to be mulling or keeping dead cards in hand more often than you'll be drawing Wrath off the top.

    Given the lack of serious argument against this point, I'm just going to keep bringing it up:

    Quote from kirbysdl
    So lastly, the number you run. Some people are saying, "well, maybe it doesn't justify a 4-of, but how about 1-2?" The problem is that no matter how many you run, the 0-or-5 math still applies. If you run 1-2, you decrease the chances of seeing it in your opening hand, but you also decrease the chances of seeing it in the draw phase. In short, running a single T.Wrath doesn't let it deal 5 damage any more consistently than running four of them. It just compounds the damage inconsistency with the inconsistency of even drawing it to begin with.


    By all means, test the hell out of it. But if it appears positive in testing despite the math not adding up, consider the possibility of confirmation bias. Or if there's a flaw in my analysis above, please point it out.
    1) True contributors don't just suggest cards; they also suggest what to remove. "Good" doesn't cut it. New cards need to be better.
    2) Use the right number of each card. Usually, 1 is the wrong number.
  • #3985
    So i assembled this Burn RDW legacy deck for a tournament and was hoping to prepare a sideboard for an unknown meta. The only confirmed decks i know can and will be there (esperswarn stoneforge affinity & elves) and only because my friends will be running those.


    Sideboard So far:
    3 Red Elemental Blast (i have an extra)
    3 Pyroblast (i have an extra)
    3 Shatterstorm (i have an extra)
    3 Slagstorm (no extras)
    2 Ratchet Bomb (no extras)
    1 Leyline of Punishment (playset owned)

    >The blasts i chose for anti: hive/pact, combo, control, etc.
    >Shatter storm vs affinity (i know there are more efficient cards like shatterspree and smithereens but I own neither.
    >Slagstorm I thought would be a good board whipe vs tribals and alternatively a burn player.
    >Ratchets, though I only own 2, i have been hearing nothing but praises from you guys in the OP.

    Not sure what else to add if not re-proportion things. I don't have money to go and grab anything expensive, but suggestions are welcome.

    Cards I had considered:
    Sundial of the Infinite (pact)
    Tormod's crypt/grafdigger's cage/Relic of Progenitus/Nihil Spellbomb (reanimator/kotor/dredge),
    Brittle Effigy (iona/things i cannot burn to death.)

    Also IMO as far as Vexing Devil, people who enjoy Keldon Marauders will enjoy the devils. (though I'd still drop a goblin guide turn 1 over it.) Though I can see them allowed to be played and then sworded or pathed or in mirror just burned. As far as T.Wrath? I can see maybe running a few but max 3 if im feeling super lucky more likely to run 2. Great risk but amazing reward for both of them.
    Now Playing:
    Standard:
    B Mono-Black Dev

    Modern:
    Rx Burn

    Legacy:
    UBW Affinity

    EDH:
    0 Karn's Artifact Emporium
    UU Thasa's Merfolk Cult
    GG Azusa's Green-Light District
    BB Phage, the Uncastable
    UR Niv Izzet Mizzet
    BRGSuper Shenanigan Brothers
    UBWRG Karona's Angels
  • #3986
    Quote from crimhead
    You might want to scrutinize that "proof". Deck thinning has been proved to be relatively insignificant compared to the dangers of running fetches over basics, but this is based on lower card draw estimates.


    Im not exactly sure what you're trying to say.... I should scrutinize the proof but in your next sentence you state it's relatively insignificant?

    Sorry, being genuine here, I really don't follow Smile

    Back to the deck as I don't want to this to get off topic. IMHO the only real card here that grabs my attention is the Vexing Devil. I still stand behind Thunderous Wrath not being worth it but please playtest more and post results. Personally I'll be leaving it out.

    Hopefully red gets a few more goodies that we don't know about yet!
  • #3987
    Yeah the Devil is a pure given with regards to competitive mages...4 Damage = "Burn" / Sligh.

    Only storm/combo players are going to let this creature resolve, all others need to be aware of the beatdown ect taking in the "tandem" with all those roast spells.

    Go Burn,
    S.M.
    Quote from Soldier
    Testing the devil and it's awesome... My friends hate the card Smile
    Trade Thread EDH Thread
    Legacy:
    Taxes then Death :symw::chaos:

    Modern:
    Milk :symu::symw:
  • #3988
    I'm liking Risky Bet a lot more than Wheel of Fortune 2. As a late game topdeck I'll likely have more than two lands down so the threat(s) I draw into will likely be playable. It'll still clutter up the opening hand, but not nearly as badly as the Miracle cards.

    Overall, I'm not sure that it's worth it. But anyone contemplating Wheel should really think about this one too.
    1) True contributors don't just suggest cards; they also suggest what to remove. "Good" doesn't cut it. New cards need to be better.
    2) Use the right number of each card. Usually, 1 is the wrong number.
  • #3989
    I'm also intrigued by the new draw. For reference:

    1R
    Instant
    Discard your hand, then draw two cards.

    Might be superior to Magma Jet despite not dealing damage? Testing will have to tell. It's always a risky premise to spend mana in this deck without dealing damage or seriously disrupting our opponent, but MAYBE this card can be efficient enough to overcome that.
    Standard: UR Guttersnipe & Talrand
    Modern: U Merfolk (in progress)
    Legacy: RBurn
  • #3990
    Quote from Valkyries
    Im not exactly sure what you're trying to say.... I should scrutinize the proof but in your next sentence you state it's relatively insignificant?

    Sorry, being genuine here, I really don't follow Smile


    Deck thinning is insignificant if you only draw three or four cads after t1, but if your deck has a lot of card draw it becomes significant. If your running Reforge you could easily draw 10+ cards post opening, which would make deck thinning meaningful. Anyone wanting to test Reforge should test it with a lot of fetches I think.

    Quote from Taldier
    The variety in Legacy is a variety of strategy. These Legacy decks play differently, not because of the cards you are using, but because of the thought process and lines of play that make each of them effective.
    Quote from Taldier
    WOTC's current hardline stance on Modern means they either have to completely avoid printing new cards that have any strong interactions with cards in the Modern card pool, or else keep banning more cards.


    Playing:
    URG Lands.dec
    RGW Enchantress
    BG Elves
    U High Tide
    B Pox
    Ø Dredge
    R Burn
    UB Affinity
    RGWU Cheeri0s

    WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
    B EDH Relentless Rats



  • #3991
    Quote from crimhead
    Deck thinning is insignificant if you only draw three or four cads after t1, but if your deck has a lot of card draw it becomes significant. If your running Reforge you could easily draw 10+ cards post opening, which would make deck thinning meaningful. Anyone wanting to test Reforge should test it with a lot of fetches I think.


    Ah - thank you for the clarification, I certainly agree with where you are coming from.

    Quote from TPC
    I'm also intrigued by the new draw. For reference:

    1R
    Instant
    Discard your hand, then draw two cards.

    Might be superior to Magma Jet despite not dealing damage? Testing will have to tell. It's always a risky premise to spend mana in this deck without dealing damage or seriously disrupting our opponent, but MAYBE this card can be efficient enough to overcome that.


    This is a very interesting card.... it's dead the first few turns but then again, you'll have burn to cast the first few turns anyways. Once you get to 1 or 2 cards in hand (including this one), then it could be very useful.

    Definitely worth playtesting...
  • #3992
    Yeah, I'm probably going to pay attention to how often I'm out of gas or how many cards I have in hand when I win/lose and see if Risky Bet would have made a difference.

    The only thing I'm worried about is the awkwardish interaction with Fireblast. You don't want to pitch it, but saccing two Mountains trying to hope for a finisher isn't the best play either. If it's that late in the game though and you EOT Risky Bet into Fireblast, you're likely to topdeck a land and a burn in one of the three cards you draw, hopefully enough to steal the same.
    Quote from Lyciana
    As far as I know, most grandmothers are also mothers. I could be wrong though...
  • #3993
    Quote from TPC
    I'm also intrigued by the new draw. For reference:

    1R
    Instant
    Discard your hand, then draw two cards.

    Might be superior to Magma Jet despite not dealing damage? Testing will have to tell. It's always a risky premise to spend mana in this deck without dealing damage or seriously disrupting our opponent, but MAYBE this card can be efficient enough to overcome that.


    It's interesting. You will reach a point where you have no cards in hand, so it's two mana for two cards. It's efficient enough, but the loss of damage stings a bit.
    "If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
    - To my youngest sister when she was 6.



    Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.




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    Last time it went large-small-large, it went "happy adventure land", "mana filled happy adventure land", "DEAD MANA ELDRAZI OVERRUN SAD DEFENSE LAND."
  • #3994
    Quote from crimhead
    Deck thinning is insignificant if you only draw three or four cads after t1, but if your deck has a lot of card draw it becomes significant. If your running Reforge you could easily draw 10+ cards post opening, which would make deck thinning meaningful. Anyone wanting to test Reforge should test it with a lot of fetches I think.


    It takes more than 10 though. Going through 10 is certainly better than going through 3, but it takes going through more like 30 for thinning to have had an impact.
  • #3995
    As much as I like the new card, I see it more fitting into combo decks than burn. With devil and possibly thunderous wrath (though I doubt it) your getting higher damage per resolved card, which means you need to play less cards on average, meaning you'll need the draw less. There is really no good spot in the decks mana curve for this because ideally you would not cast this till turn 3 and by turn 3 ideally you can finish them with what you have.

    I almost think that if faithless looting can't make the cut, even when it can flush useless lands from your hand and pitch the new ones it does not need, I can't see this 2 mana draw spell which will often do the same see play. Apples and oranges I know, but still some parallels. If just drawing extra cards or looting to squeeze out extra damage was worth it, people would be playing Needle Drop or Flame jab.
    This is my podcast:

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  • #3996
    I am just excited that burn has a new card. The first in a while (except Chaos Warp in the side).

    It should be clear, but Vexing Devil is the only card spoiled so far that is worth playing in Burn.

    The new draw card seems like it would improve consistency but it is a trap. Most of the time you would prefer to just draw about any other card in burn when you are top-decking (the only time this card is good).
    My collection (everything worth > $5)

    Standard: UWR
    Modern: RDW, Twin
    Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
    -Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
    -Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
    -Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
    Vintage: Grixis Painter
    EDH: Rith, the Awakener
  • #3997
    Quote from Aazadan
    It takes more than 10 though. Going through 10 is certainly better than going through 3, but it takes going through more like 30 for thinning to have had an impact.


    Thinning has an impact on one card. This is about as obvious as math can get. The question is how many cards before the cumulative impact is worth the risk of Stifle (along with the lesser drawback of pinging yourself)? Probably this is meta dependent.
    Last edited by crimhead: 4/18/2012 4:08:39 AM

    Quote from Taldier
    The variety in Legacy is a variety of strategy. These Legacy decks play differently, not because of the cards you are using, but because of the thought process and lines of play that make each of them effective.
    Quote from Taldier
    WOTC's current hardline stance on Modern means they either have to completely avoid printing new cards that have any strong interactions with cards in the Modern card pool, or else keep banning more cards.


    Playing:
    URG Lands.dec
    RGW Enchantress
    BG Elves
    U High Tide
    B Pox
    Ø Dredge
    R Burn
    UB Affinity
    RGWU Cheeri0s

    WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
    B EDH Relentless Rats



  • #3998
    Quote from Prinny
    So i assembled this Burn RDW legacy deck for a tournament and was hoping to prepare a sideboard for an unknown meta. The only confirmed decks i know can and will be there (esperswarn stoneforge affinity & elves) and only because my friends will be running those.


    Sideboard So far:
    3 Red Elemental Blast (i have an extra)
    3 Pyroblast (i have an extra)
    3 Shatterstorm (i have an extra)
    3 Slagstorm (no extras)
    2 Ratchet Bomb (no extras)
    1 Leyline of Punishment (playset owned)

    >The blasts i chose for anti: hive/pact, combo, control, etc.
    >Shatter storm vs affinity (i know there are more efficient cards like shatterspree and smithereens but I own neither.
    >Slagstorm I thought would be a good board whipe vs tribals and alternatively a burn player.
    >Ratchets, though I only own 2, i have been hearing nothing but praises from you guys in the OP.

    Not sure what else to add if not re-proportion things. I don't have money to go and grab anything expensive, but suggestions are welcome.

    Cards I had considered:
    Sundial of the Infinite (pact)
    Tormod's crypt/grafdigger's cage/Relic of Progenitus/Nihil Spellbomb (reanimator/kotor/dredge),
    Brittle Effigy (iona/things i cannot burn to death.)

    Also IMO as far as Vexing Devil, people who enjoy Keldon Marauders will enjoy the devils. (though I'd still drop a goblin guide turn 1 over it.) Though I can see them allowed to be played and then sworded or pathed or in mirror just burned. As far as T.Wrath? I can see maybe running a few but max 3 if im feeling super lucky more likely to run 2. Great risk but amazing reward for both of them.


    I'm assuming the 2 chain lightning is due to ownership. I would implore you to buy/borrow/steal these. It is the only expensive card in your deck, get a playset.

    Cut the Teetering Peaks for Mountains. YOu can't sac them to fireblast and they come into play tapped.
    Cut browbeat. It's a long argument, but the card isn't good enough. Replace them with Hellspark Elemental/Keldon Marauders/Figure of Destiny. (whichever you like most) You should be able to pick these up for like a quarter each.

    I would personally cut the sideboard Shatterstorm for Smash to Smithereens. It allows you to destroy key artifacts while still dealing damage. Shatterstorm is a bit expensive at 4 mana.
    Leline seems useless as a one of. You aren't going to start any games with it, and won't be able to find one before you are too far back to win. Play the graveyard hate over it.
    Last edited by Pringlesman: 4/18/2012 4:30:25 AM

    That's the remarkable thing about life. It's never so bad that it can't get worse
    Calvin and Hobbes
    Cube Tutor
  • #3999
    well, looks like this will be the 2 drop we are going to get from this set...

    Also, I know this will likely move the discussion maybe a bit more toward RDW builds, but whatever



    So, this thing ca give haste to Marauders, Devil, and... nothing else but itself really (maybe steppe lynx if you play boros)
    I wonder if it'll be of any use

    fixed link
    Last edited by Negator!: 4/18/2012 8:17:28 AM
  • #4000
    Quote from Negator87
    well, looks like this will be the 2 drop we are going to get from this set...

    Also, I know this will likely move the discussion maybe a bit more toward RDW builds, but whatever


    http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/96/991/635032497200350352.jpg" target="blank">http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/96/991/635032497200350352.jpg

    So, this thing ca give haste to Marauders, Devil, and... nothing else but itself really (maybe steppe lynx if you play boros)
    I wonder if it'll be of any use


    link doesn't work for me? Frown
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