Guttersnipe is in a direct violation of the 3 main rules of burn. This, and he costs 3 mana, and is not hasted. He is not good enough, though he is kind of cool.
Okay, with today's previews, what are people's take on Nivmagus Elemental?
This looks like it might be a SB answer for against Permission-based decks, but it's been a long time since I played Burn competitively (Clinton was President), so I could use some feedback.
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May your games be chaotic and your decks be Rogue.
That's what I had been thinking. I think the best use for this card in Legacy is Burn. We bring him in vs counterspell decks and then they are using counterspells to turn a 3 damage burn card into 2 +1/+1 counters. Land him on turn one, and he can arguably increase the clock. Cast two Bolts, but use one to make him a 3/4 to bash with sounds like a great T2
Nivmagus Elemental. Very interesting creature. Definitely bears some testing and looking into. Initially, it reminds me very much of Kiln Fiend and its brethren - using spells to pump for big swings. But the spell is effectively countered by the exiling, and the pump is permanent. Very double edged sword there. The fact that it's a one drop might just make it aggressive and fast enough to warrant play in specialized builds.
Burn is full of 3 damage for 1 mana spells. Often, you won't want to counter your own spell for 1 less damage (Nivmagus only gets 2 counters per exiled spell). And you do get hit hard if the creature dies to a removal spell. But if you do get to swing a couple times with him, that could very quickly be game over for the opponent.
Turn 1: Mountain, Nivmagus Elemental.
Turn 2: Mountain, play and exile any two Bolts, attack for 5.
Turn 3: Attack for 5 again. Play two Bolts for 6 damage. Fireblast for the win.
Negative aspects - probably a completely irrelevant card and dead top deck after the second turn. Definitely a glass cannon. All or nothing.
Probably only suitable for absolutely all in, win fast builds. Requires a lot of 1 CMC and "free" spells (ala Fireblast, Gut Shot) to fully capitalize upon.
Nivmagus Elemental. Very interesting creature. Definitely bears some testing and looking into. Initially, it reminds me very much of Kiln Fiend and its brethren - using spells to pump for big swings. But the spell is effectively countered by the exiling, and the pump is permanent. Very double edged sword there. The fact that it's a one drop might just make it aggressive and fast enough to warrant play in specialized builds.
Burn is full of 3 damage for 1 mana spells. Often, you won't want to counter your own spell for 1 less damage (Nivmagus only gets 2 counters per exiled spell). And you do get hit hard if the creature dies to a removal spell. But if you do get to swing a couple times with him, that could very quickly be game over for the opponent.
Turn 1: Mountain, Nivmagus Elemental.
Turn 2: Mountain, play and exile any two Bolts, attack for 5.
Turn 3: Attack for 5 again. Play two Bolts for 6 damage. Fireblast for the win.
Negative aspects - probably a completely irrelevant card and dead top deck after the second turn. Definitely a glass cannon. All or nothing.
Probably only suitable for absolutely all in, win fast builds. Requires a lot of 1 CMC and "free" spells (ala Fireblast, Gut Shot) to fully capitalize upon.
Ah, but also remember you can activate him at any time. Let's say I open with him, and you go Island pass. I now drop a land and cast Lightning bolt. How does this guy make you feel about that Spell Pierce in your hand?
Ah, but also remember you can activate him at any time. Let's say I open with him, and you go Island pass. I now drop a land and cast Lightning bolt. How does this guy make you feel about that Spell Pierce in your hand?
In that scenario, he's amazing.
But let's say you played him on turn 2. A RUG player can now Spell Pierce the Bolt, you exile it in response, and they Bolt the Elemental in response. Countered spell, dead creature, no damage to the opponent. No card in your graveyard for Grim Lavamancer or Barbarian Ring.
Potentially very fast creature. My concern is that he may drop in value quite drastically as the turns progress (even more so than the creatures that Burn already plays). But I do like the creature. I'm very intrigued by him, and look forward to testing him out to see if he does warrant inclusion. And if so, in what sort of build.
Would this be better than Figure of Destiny? 4/4 for 1 card and 5 mana over time, vs 3/4 for 2 cards and 2 mana over time, or 5/6 for 3 cards and 3 mana over time. Thing is, I think I'd have a surplus of mana rather than cards when facing control decks.
But let's say you played him on turn 2. A RUG player can now Spell Pierce the Bolt, you exile it in response, and they Bolt the Elemental in response. Countered spell, dead creature, no damage to the opponent. No card in your graveyard for Grim Lavamancer or Barbarian Ring.
Potentially very fast creature. My concern is that he may drop in value quite drastically as the turns progress (even more so than the creatures that Burn already plays). But I do like the creature. I'm very intrigued by him, and look forward to testing him out to see if he does warrant inclusion. And if so, in what sort of build.
But you have another mana open, and they are tapped. You can cast another spell, and pump it with it. You have a beater that is too big for them, ready to swing for 5. They have to kill it turn one, leaving you open to do what ever you want turn two.
*If you are playing this, then why would you run Lavamancer?
Would this be better than Figure of Destiny? 4/4 for 1 card and 5 mana over time, vs 3/4 for 2 cards and 2 mana over time, or 5/6 for 3 cards and 3 mana over time. Thing is, I think I'd have a surplus of mana rather than cards when facing control decks.
It's just a different way to approach the game. I think it fills the same role as Lavamancer, as a way to use spells beyond resolving them. It just sucks because you can't exile any spell from the stack, which makes it suck.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Unfortunately, I don't think burn is the right deck for Nivmagus. If you're playing against a deck that counters a lot of your spells, you're always going to be better off bringing in Vexing Shusher or Red Elemental Blast and stopping them from being countered in the first place. I'd rather run Spark Elemental or Jackal Pup than this.
As a connoisseur of fun, interesting matches, I still to this day have not been able to craft that "perfect deck"; the deck that I can play and have fun over time, doesn't get boring, but simultaneously is fun to play against. I honestly don't think it exists. It's like a unicorn. A ninja unicorn.
Nivmagus Elemental. Very interesting creature. Definitely bears some testing and looking into. Initially, it reminds me very much of Kiln Fiend and its brethren - using spells to pump for big swings. But the spell is effectively countered by the exiling, and the pump is permanent. Very double edged sword there. The fact that it's a one drop might just make it aggressive and fast enough to warrant play in specialized builds.
Burn is full of 3 damage for 1 mana spells. Often, you won't want to counter your own spell for 1 less damage (Nivmagus only gets 2 counters per exiled spell). And you do get hit hard if the creature dies to a removal spell. But if you do get to swing a couple times with him, that could very quickly be game over for the opponent.
Turn 1: Mountain, Nivmagus Elemental.
Turn 2: Mountain, play and exile any two Bolts, attack for 5.
Turn 3: Attack for 5 again. Play two Bolts for 6 damage. Fireblast for the win.
Negative aspects - probably a completely irrelevant card and dead top deck after the second turn. Definitely a glass cannon. All or nothing.
Probably only suitable for absolutely all in, win fast builds. Requires a lot of 1 CMC and "free" spells (ala Fireblast, Gut Shot) to fully capitalize upon.
I think Nivmagus and Kiln would make a good team for a casual deck
Ok, I think Nivmagus is awesome because he would allow burn players to get around cards that prevent players to target them.
But you have another mana open, and they are tapped. You can cast another spell, and pump it with it. You have a beater that is too big for them, ready to swing for 5. They have to kill it turn one, leaving you open to do what ever you want turn two.
*If you are playing this, then why would you run Lavamancer?
It's just a different way to approach the game. I think it fills the same role as Lavamancer, as a way to use spells beyond resolving them. It just sucks because you can't exile any spell from the stack, which makes it suck.
Exactly my points from the beginning.
He's very fast, potentially swing for a lot, very short clock for the opponent to deal with. But all of your eggs are in one basket. As for Lavamancer, you probably wouldn't want to play them together because of the anti-synergy. That's why I mentioned it and Barbarian Ring. Burn has often found it useful to make use of the Grayeyard in the past. Nivmagus's speed comes at a price that is anti-synergistic with that option. That doesn't make him bad per se. But it does mean he requires a build tailored to bring out his strengths.
As for the game scenario, they don't have to kill it in one turn. They can still try to chump block for a few turns and race you with Insectile Abberation in the air. (Although it is worth noting that this guy has the potential to take out Tarmogoyf because your graveyard is likely empty).
Just because I'm pointing out that Nivmagus Elemental has some downsides does not mean I'm saying it shouldn't be played. I'm waiting until I test him before I come with a judgment like that.
I have mixed initial thoughts on Nivmagus Elemental. I think he is like many other one drop creatures that gets proposed here(lynx etc) you can have amazing goldfishes but how good are they on turn 2,3 etc...? Guide and Devil seem to pass this test because wheather it is haste or a 4/3 body they have another attribute going for them beside 1 cmc. The elemental has the fact it can turn a counter war into your favor if you landed it previously. How valuable/likely is this? On the other hand maybe the Elemental would allow Burn to have two gameplans, 3 to the dome and a more powerful aggro plan. Our creatures are already pretty scary beats, Nivmagus Elemental could just add to this plan of clogging up the ground, after all, one spell exiled and he becomes a 3/4 permanently that is pretty good if you ask me.
He seems a good one drop vs combo where it is just a race to the finish but in the end I am afraid of the interactions other decks will have with him.
I think the only way to run Nivmagus is with "free spells", so he could work with , or [CARD=Siege Towers]cheap replicatespells, but then you aren't really playing "burn" anymore.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
The more I think about it the less I like the idea of Nivmagus Elemental in burn. All our spells are redundant so not a one should ever be dead, they will always get in for 3 or more. Also, I think the risk of getting of 2for1'd, 3for1'd or more is to high and unjustifiable with stp and other non burn-based removal being so common. Summuary, the potential card advantage loss is huge.
Also, the idea of adding other jankier cards to supplement Nivmagus Elemental just seems like your going down the wrong road for Burn.
I don't think anyone should be considering Nivmagus Elemental for MD status in Burn. It goes against the basic strategy of the deck, exiling spells.
The question is, in a meta where Permission-based decks are prominent, would NivEl be a good SB choice to gain some benefit against the slate of FoWs and Counterspells that occur?
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But let's say you played him on turn 2. A RUG player can now Spell Pierce the Bolt, you exile it in response, and they Bolt the Elemental in response. Countered spell, dead creature, no damage to the opponent. No card in your graveyard for Grim Lavamancer or Barbarian Ring.
Potentially very fast creature. My concern is that he may drop in value quite drastically as the turns progress (even more so than the creatures that Burn already plays). But I do like the creature. I'm very intrigued by him, and look forward to testing him out to see if he does warrant inclusion. And if so, in what sort of build.
But any 1 CMC spell will let you turn him into a 3/4 and not die, who then becomes a 5/6. Oops. Good luck getting a goyf that big.
The more I think about him, the more I think he is a total house against RUG. But he is much weaker vs decks with StP. So, the questions for him are:
1) What matchups other than RUG would you bring this guy in for
2) Do we want a sb card for those matchups.
To be clear, he's probably not md potential. But bringing him in over FoD or Grim vs RUG seems amazing.
It does, but it depends on how your opponent approaches the situation. Some might give up countering Instant and Sorcery spell if this thing hits the field, which is good, but it means you will probably never see another permanent source of damage hit the field.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
It does, but it depends on how your opponent approaches the situation. Some might give up countering Instant and Sorcery spell if this thing hits the field, which is good, but it means you will probably never see another permanent source of damage hit the field.
Is that a bad trade-off? Besides, let's say we bring him in over FoD. How much are you going to enjoy drawing a FoD vs RUG?
But any 1 CMC spell will let you turn him into a 3/4 and not die, who then becomes a 5/6. Oops. Good luck getting a goyf that big.
The more I think about him, the more I think he is a total house against RUG. But he is much weaker vs decks with StP. So, the questions for him are:
1) What matchups other than RUG would you bring this guy in for
2) Do we want a sb card for those matchups.
To be clear, he's probably not md potential. But bringing him in over FoD or Grim vs RUG seems amazing.
Yup. Any 1 CMC lets him be a 5/6. Or the Price of Progress or Fireblast or Rift Bolt or Flame Riftany creature left in your hand makes you cry. This is why I say he needs a build tailored to him, as opposed to maindecking or sideboarding him into any build.
As per a previous post, though, I do agree that he is awesome against 'Goyf given how he grows while keeping your graveyard small.
Is it just me or the only decks I seem to struggle with the most are decks that do more unfair things like show n tell, storm, dredge, and reanimator to name a few. I havent had many issues or felt unfairly matched against creature based deck like RUG.
I already buy 8 Nivmagus Elemental. Maybe it can not play usually in burn but in some meta it will be very good. But maybe it can be better in a UR deck.
I see 2 positive points in Nivmagus Elemental:
-First you will not have dead spell in your hand (like against a Leyline or a Price of progress against a deck with only basics or even por e.g. a Flame Rift with less than 4 life.
-Second against the world of Force of Will, daze, spell pierce, etc. it can absorve the spells that will be counter. They will have to made the choices, counter a Bolt or made our creature bigger.
I already buy 8 Nivmagus Elemental. Maybe it can not play usually in burn but in some meta it will be very good. But maybe it can be better in a UR deck.
I see 2 positive points in Nivmagus Elemental:
-First you will not have dead spell in your hand (like against a Leyline or a Price of progress against a deck with only basics or even por e.g. a Flame Rift with less than 4 life.
-Second against the world of Force of Will, daze, spell pierce, etc. it can absorve the spells that will be counter. They will have to made the choices, counter a Bolt or made our creature bigger.
I believe you are right about it belonging in a UR deck more then Burn. You summed it quite nicely in your 2 points but I'll take it a step further. A UR deck would have more dead/situational spells (spell pierce, daze, stifle etc) that it would want exiled then burn. Burns spells for the most part will always be active and have value, each spell gets us closer to our goal.
The question then becomes, in burns case, what has more value? A bolt to the face or 1/2 with +2/2 counters at the same cost. The bolt will do more guaranteed (except counters) and immediate damage but the counters COULD (not blocked or removed ) provide more damage over the course of a few turns. Putting all ur eggs into this one basket so to speak creates a single point of failure, making Burn not just more susceptible to removal but near shutdown by it.
Turn 1: Mountain, Nivmagus Elemental.
Turn 2: Mountain, play and exile any two Bolts, attack for 5.
Turn 3: Attack for 5 again. Play two Bolts for 6 damage. Fireblast for the win.
If the opponent was to stp or otherwise remove the elemental on your turn 2 it would then be you lost 3 cards and timewalked.
Guide, Devil, or Maruaders do not create such weaknesses, them getting removed isn't game breaking. Besides their initial mana cost they dont require any more investment to provide a benefit.
I think the approach in a UR will be something like this:
-our opponent bolt Nivmagus Elemental, we daze, they force our daze, we exile the daze, Nivmagus Elemental lives
I think it will have an efficient way of use and not a agroo way of use.
In a Burn I think it can maybe be a sideboard card that play for use spells that we can use, for e.g. against a Leyline of Sanctity Lava Spike in us, exile Lava Spike to pump Nivmagus Elemental... Against a blue deck e.g. Bolt to the face, Daze our bolt, exile the bolt and pump Nivmagus Elemental. Our opponent will have to choose if he want take the damage or pump our creature. With Sulfuric Vortex it will put very pressure in the board. In some meta it can maybe be a mainboard creature, I think it can have Goyfs for "lunch" ...
For sure this creature can give us card advantage if our opponent take 3 or 4 cards to take Nivmagus Elemental from the game, but I think that style of play is more about UR...
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The Izmagnus are the most powerful members of the Izmundi
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes Commander: Locust God
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It makes us more resiliant, at the cost of being 1-2 turns slower on average.
an unnatural love towardsperfectly reasonable respect for Lightning Bolt.The Kiwi third of The Salt Mine Podcast: An Australian Legacy Podcast
This looks like it might be a SB answer for against Permission-based decks, but it's been a long time since I played Burn competitively (Clinton was President), so I could use some feedback.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Burn is full of 3 damage for 1 mana spells. Often, you won't want to counter your own spell for 1 less damage (Nivmagus only gets 2 counters per exiled spell). And you do get hit hard if the creature dies to a removal spell. But if you do get to swing a couple times with him, that could very quickly be game over for the opponent.
Turn 1: Mountain, Nivmagus Elemental.
Turn 2: Mountain, play and exile any two Bolts, attack for 5.
Turn 3: Attack for 5 again. Play two Bolts for 6 damage. Fireblast for the win.
Negative aspects - probably a completely irrelevant card and dead top deck after the second turn. Definitely a glass cannon. All or nothing.
Probably only suitable for absolutely all in, win fast builds. Requires a lot of 1 CMC and "free" spells (ala Fireblast, Gut Shot) to fully capitalize upon.
formely known as Wolf_Cub82
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Ghave, Guru of SporesWGB(Commander)
HumansRW(Standard)
Ah, but also remember you can activate him at any time. Let's say I open with him, and you go Island pass. I now drop a land and cast Lightning bolt. How does this guy make you feel about that Spell Pierce in your hand?
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Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
In that scenario, he's amazing.
But let's say you played him on turn 2. A RUG player can now Spell Pierce the Bolt, you exile it in response, and they Bolt the Elemental in response. Countered spell, dead creature, no damage to the opponent. No card in your graveyard for Grim Lavamancer or Barbarian Ring.
Potentially very fast creature. My concern is that he may drop in value quite drastically as the turns progress (even more so than the creatures that Burn already plays). But I do like the creature. I'm very intrigued by him, and look forward to testing him out to see if he does warrant inclusion. And if so, in what sort of build.
formely known as Wolf_Cub82
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BurnR(Legacy)
ReanimatorUB(Legacy)
Ghave, Guru of SporesWGB(Commander)
HumansRW(Standard)
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
But you have another mana open, and they are tapped. You can cast another spell, and pump it with it. You have a beater that is too big for them, ready to swing for 5. They have to kill it turn one, leaving you open to do what ever you want turn two.
*If you are playing this, then why would you run Lavamancer?
It's just a different way to approach the game. I think it fills the same role as Lavamancer, as a way to use spells beyond resolving them. It just sucks because you can't exile any spell from the stack, which makes it suck.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
I think Nivmagus and Kiln would make a good team for a casual deck
Ok, I think Nivmagus is awesome because he would allow burn players to get around cards that prevent players to target them.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Exactly my points from the beginning.
He's very fast, potentially swing for a lot, very short clock for the opponent to deal with. But all of your eggs are in one basket. As for Lavamancer, you probably wouldn't want to play them together because of the anti-synergy. That's why I mentioned it and Barbarian Ring. Burn has often found it useful to make use of the Grayeyard in the past. Nivmagus's speed comes at a price that is anti-synergistic with that option. That doesn't make him bad per se. But it does mean he requires a build tailored to bring out his strengths.
As for the game scenario, they don't have to kill it in one turn. They can still try to chump block for a few turns and race you with Insectile Abberation in the air. (Although it is worth noting that this guy has the potential to take out Tarmogoyf because your graveyard is likely empty).
Just because I'm pointing out that Nivmagus Elemental has some downsides does not mean I'm saying it shouldn't be played. I'm waiting until I test him before I come with a judgment like that.
Also, congratulations Kimbra. I like your list.
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BurnR(Legacy)
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Ghave, Guru of SporesWGB(Commander)
HumansRW(Standard)
He seems a good one drop vs combo where it is just a race to the finish but in the end I am afraid of the interactions other decks will have with him.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Also, the idea of adding other jankier cards to supplement Nivmagus Elemental just seems like your going down the wrong road for Burn.
The question is, in a meta where Permission-based decks are prominent, would NivEl be a good SB choice to gain some benefit against the slate of FoWs and Counterspells that occur?
But any 1 CMC spell will let you turn him into a 3/4 and not die, who then becomes a 5/6. Oops. Good luck getting a goyf that big.
The more I think about him, the more I think he is a total house against RUG. But he is much weaker vs decks with StP. So, the questions for him are:
1) What matchups other than RUG would you bring this guy in for
2) Do we want a sb card for those matchups.
To be clear, he's probably not md potential. But bringing him in over FoD or Grim vs RUG seems amazing.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Is that a bad trade-off? Besides, let's say we bring him in over FoD. How much are you going to enjoy drawing a FoD vs RUG?
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
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BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Yup. Any 1 CMC lets him be a 5/6. Or the Price of Progress or Fireblast or Rift Bolt or Flame Rift any creature left in your hand makes you cry. This is why I say he needs a build tailored to him, as opposed to maindecking or sideboarding him into any build.
As per a previous post, though, I do agree that he is awesome against 'Goyf given how he grows while keeping your graveyard small.
formely known as Wolf_Cub82
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BurnR(Legacy)
ReanimatorUB(Legacy)
Ghave, Guru of SporesWGB(Commander)
HumansRW(Standard)
I see 2 positive points in Nivmagus Elemental:
-First you will not have dead spell in your hand (like against a Leyline or a Price of progress against a deck with only basics or even por e.g. a Flame Rift with less than 4 life.
-Second against the world of Force of Will, daze, spell pierce, etc. it can absorve the spells that will be counter. They will have to made the choices, counter a Bolt or made our creature bigger.
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn
Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes
Commander: Locust God
I believe you are right about it belonging in a UR deck more then Burn. You summed it quite nicely in your 2 points but I'll take it a step further. A UR deck would have more dead/situational spells (spell pierce, daze, stifle etc) that it would want exiled then burn. Burns spells for the most part will always be active and have value, each spell gets us closer to our goal.
The question then becomes, in burns case, what has more value? A bolt to the face or 1/2 with +2/2 counters at the same cost. The bolt will do more guaranteed (except counters) and immediate damage but the counters COULD (not blocked or removed ) provide more damage over the course of a few turns. Putting all ur eggs into this one basket so to speak creates a single point of failure, making Burn not just more susceptible to removal but near shutdown by it.
If the opponent was to stp or otherwise remove the elemental on your turn 2 it would then be you lost 3 cards and timewalked.
Guide, Devil, or Maruaders do not create such weaknesses, them getting removed isn't game breaking. Besides their initial mana cost they dont require any more investment to provide a benefit.
-our opponent bolt Nivmagus Elemental, we daze, they force our daze, we exile the daze, Nivmagus Elemental lives
I think it will have an efficient way of use and not a agroo way of use.
In a Burn I think it can maybe be a sideboard card that play for use spells that we can use, for e.g. against a Leyline of Sanctity Lava Spike in us, exile Lava Spike to pump Nivmagus Elemental... Against a blue deck e.g. Bolt to the face, Daze our bolt, exile the bolt and pump Nivmagus Elemental. Our opponent will have to choose if he want take the damage or pump our creature. With Sulfuric Vortex it will put very pressure in the board. In some meta it can maybe be a mainboard creature, I think it can have Goyfs for "lunch" ...
For sure this creature can give us card advantage if our opponent take 3 or 4 cards to take Nivmagus Elemental from the game, but I think that style of play is more about UR...
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn
Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes
Commander: Locust God