I pretty much just sold off some cards in my account and bought a Boltslinger deck, to build my 60 for the Magic Online Championship Series Legacy Event tonight. Here's the pile:
Why are you running Sonic Seizure? Especially the extra 1 in the sideboard. It seems pretty bad compared to meta cards like Sulfuric Vortex or just something like Vexing Devil/Keldon Marauders.
I have been getting a few match ups where I have dead cards in hand or extra land and I use them to pitch out the last 3 damage. I thought I'd try it. I couldn't find Sulferic Vortex in time. I just started putting the deck together last night. Since I hand dump, it's usually 3 damage and discard a land. Or if I have Price of Progress game 1 against a Mono Black or Mirror, I dump Price to the Sonic Seizure.
It's dumb tech, anyhow. I'm 1-2 losing to Zombie Bombardment with some janky hands.
I think Vexing Devil would have been a better choice. I should have snagged some.
Ball lightning is a solid burn card, but we have better things in legacy, when was the last time you saw firebolt in legacy? one of my all time favorite burn spells but we just have better options these days.
Ball Lightning is always going to be a red card that I just wish could be played somewhere competitively but is just too easy to deal with Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay running around in Legacy these days. I think another card I wish could have been played more was apocalypse, though it wasn't a burn card (or great card) it was featured as a sideboard one of in Dave Price's Sligh deck that won a Pro Tour way back when mono-red decks were coming up as a respectable force in Mtg.
Ball Lightning makes sense in Burn on a damage/card metric.
If Flame Rift can be played, which is two Shocks on one card, why not three Shocks on one card?
The damage isn't guaranteed. I'd play non-existent card over Ball Lighting, RRR Big Frigging Explosion deals 6 damage to each player.
Ball Lightning is like the Vexing Devil of 'big frigging explosion' (sorry VD fans). Even when it gobbles up a goblin or two, it only provides the opponent with ways to neutralize it.
- see "The Twilight Zone - The Howling Man" to find out what happens when have to count on Vexing Devil to win a game.
Boros Charm in burn is all hype, IMO. It does nothing that the deck can't already do and a couple things it doesn't need to do...
Boros Charm is pretty much Flame Rift where you take four then gain four...the Lightning Helix of Flame Rift if you will. So as far as spell quality is concerned, white only negates the self damage of Flame Rift.
The indestructible clause on Boros Charm is really only tech for saving Grim Lavamancer in a pinch against MU where he is relevant (unfortunately, StP and Terminus make this function less useful), or possibly 'countering an Abrupt Decay' on Sulfuric Vortex (Unfortunately, Plateau probably gets Wasteland'ed first). You could also use Boros Charm to prevent Plateau from being destroyed, but that can't be why Burn splashes white.
The damage provided by double strike is never equal to the four to the head. Double striking Goblins, Marauders, Elementals are never necessary (excluding rare Leyline of Sanctity situations), especially at the expense of a card. I suppose the exception to the rule would be Steppe Lynx, who can easily turn BC into 5 damage for two or even more if you hold an extra fetchland. I think Steppe Lynx builds should run a high 14 fetchlands, because you need pretty much every land to be a fetch in order to excuse playing Steppe Lynx. Once you're playing Steppe Lynx, Searing Blaze becomes a better card than Boros Charm.
The splash does hurt. Getting hit by Wasteland sucks. In many matchups, the dual lands will feel like the worst cards in the deck and you'll try to fetch them out last.
The Sideboard is where white has a chance to make an actual difference in the game, but white isn't as good at beating Counterbalance as green, and I don't believe I've ever heard of a Burn deck splashing Grip. <<< Does everyone just conceded to Counterbalance?
I think Skullcrack is borderline playable. It doesn't fill the function of Vortex, a repeating source of damage, but it does prevent damage prevention...but for the most part 'damage prevention' is not entirely present in Legacy right now and not particularly relevant to Burn (if it was, Burn would not be playable). I feel like Skullcrack was printed to give Modern RDW a chance to beat the hate, but it certainly wasn't pushed to Legacy power level.
edit - Good point by Uberbacon about Skullcrack though. If they were going to gain life anyways, I suppose you could consider prevented lifegain as damage and play for that opportunity. I have nothing but positive feelings about Skullcrack, it's just unfortunate that Burn might HAVE TO play it.
I'm pretty nooby when it comes to rules. If the opponeuse jittewhich have more than counter we can only stop one of thos with a skullcrack?
That is correct. I think if the opponent says something like "remove two counters from Jitte to gain 4 life" this is considered to be a shortcut for "I intend to remove one counter from Umezawa's Jitte to gain 2 life, *then wait for that to resolve*, then keep priority and remove another counter to gain 2 more life." When several spells or abilities are played sequentially, unless otherwise stated (e.g. by saying "remove a counter; in response, remove another counter"), they are considered to be played and resolved on individual stacks.
If they do something like this, you can ask them to rewind to the point when they activated the ability the first time. Immediately activating it the second time skips over waiting for the first activation to resolve; during that time, you gain priority and have the right to do something (like cast Skullcrack) in response to the first activation. So you can keep them from gaining life from the first activation; then, in response to Skullcrack (since the game has state been rewound, they can change their plans), they can remove other counters before Skullcrack resolves in order to gain life. Alternatively, you can Skullcrack in response to the last activation for the same net effect on life totals, but the first version can be advantageous to induce them to remove the other counters so that you can win a Jitte activations vs. burn spells battle to finish the game.
That is correct. I think if the opponent says something like "remove two counters from Jitte to gain 4 life" this is considered to be a shortcut for "I intend to remove one counter from Umezawa's Jitte to gain 2 life, *then wait for that to resolve*, then keep priority and remove another counter to gain 2 more life." When several spells or abilities are played sequentially, unless otherwise stated (e.g. by saying "remove a counter; in response, remove another counter"), they are considered to be played and resolved on individual stacks.
There is a loophole to the rule that I am aware of. It is essentially a shortcut, or a 9 times out of 10 rule if you will.
Whenever a player adds an object to the stack, he or she is assumed to be passing priority unless he or she explicitly announces that he or she intend to retain it. If he or she adds a group of objects to the stack without explicitly retaining priority and a player wishes to take an action at a point in the middle, the actions should be reversed up to that point.
In other words, if someone were to say "Remove two from Jitte, gain 4", I would consider both abilities on the stack at the same time. If you don't specify you are holding priority, then it is assumed that you aren't and that can be taken advantage of.
I've been wondering something lately. Burn is a deck with a very, very low curve generally, and a few spells that cost 3 such as Sulphuric Vortex. There's also this huge emphasis on not running non-burn spells (understandably) and attention paid to topdecking the last one.
Despite the undeniable power of those 3-drop spells, though, I can't help wondering whether land counts could be lowered quite a bit if the curve dropped even more. Switching Vortex for Skullcrack and running that, Fireblast, Flame Rift, PoP as the only 2-drops could enable land counts of 15, maybe even 14. We have a 10 card window to draw the second land (10 cards by turn 4) and a 0-land opening mulligan of about 10%. That's about what a 21-land deck will do combining land flood probability with 0-1 land hands.
Not having land to cast spells is painful, sure, and I might be just totally wrong about everything here, but I'm of the opinion that insufficient threat density is just as fatal. This addition of a cheaper, admittedly worse but workable alternative might result in a lower curve, increased density, and more reliably lethal deck.
1º I never concede. Not to Counterbalance not to no one unless I have no play and the guy in front of me kills me next turn.
Counterbalance is easily fightable with Vexing Shushers and Pithing Needles. You just Needle their Sensi Divine Top and you pretty much just screwed Counterbalance.
2º I've splashed Black and Green for burn and it was very good. But it loses it's "Burn" feeling although I played superheavy on damage to the face. It was a Legacy Burn deck with Bump in the Night and Deathrite Shamans maindeck, and Rakdos Charm and Krosan Grip in the sideboard.
But I think i'm gonna just splash green for Krosan Grip as I feel I have oother opcions again graveyard hate and Grip gives me Artifact and Graveyard hate thats "Split Second".
Thanks, good advice. Goblins 5-8 is exactly what I want to be doing with Burn anyways.
I agree that the green splash is all about Grip. I just answers everything a little bit better than Needle and Shusher. I'd throw a Taiga into the mix or even than interesting Rgb version you mention if I could before I'd stick Plateaus in the deck.
I think playing too few land in Burn makes it a bit crappier against Daze and Spell Pierce and Thalia, while lowering the curve lowers the card/damage ratio. That being said, cutting Vortex lowers the curve significantly. Then, Fireblast is the only high curve card.
I also like always drawing the land I need in the first seven since taking a mulligan is like drawing one too many lands anyways. I'd rather mulligan a hand of 5 Land and 2 Burn knowing I'll probably draw 2 Land next time than mulligan to oblivion because of bad luck. Also, double Fireblast in hand creates dead cards if you don't have four Lands. I'm not the professional Burn player though, that's just my approach to playing almost any deck I play.
- As a counter argument to my own, I suppose replacing lands with Shocks even would actually increase the damage per card ratio. It could be done, but the other one drop bolts have proven to be a little junky over the years, and I feel like this meta calls for 2-3 MD Searing Blaze, a card that likes 2-3 land hands.
I've been wondering something lately. Burn is a deck with a very, very low curve generally, and a few spells that cost 3 such as Sulphuric Vortex. There's also this huge emphasis on not running non-burn spells (understandably) and attention paid to topdecking the last one.
Despite the undeniable power of those 3-drop spells, though, I can't help wondering whether land counts could be lowered quite a bit if the curve dropped even more. Switching Vortex for Skullcrack and running that, Fireblast, Flame Rift, PoP as the only 2-drops could enable land counts of 15, maybe even 14. We have a 10 card window to draw the second land (10 cards by turn 4) and a 0-land opening mulligan of about 10%. That's about what a 21-land deck will do combining land flood probability with 0-1 land hands.
Not having land to cast spells is painful, sure, and I might be just totally wrong about everything here, but I'm of the opinion that insufficient threat density is just as fatal. This addition of a cheaper, admittedly worse but workable alternative might result in a lower curve, increased density, and more reliably lethal deck.
Next tourney I'll give it a whirl. Maybe.
back when I ran burn all the time (during time spiral block and before) I ran almost 100% one drop burn spells and usually included shock variants it worked well at 16 lands. I wouldn't cut down to 15 and never to 14 because you really do want to have more then just 1 land before turn 4, we get our power from more then one burn spell per turn, 3 damage to the dome a turn isn't going to win the game.
In other words, if someone were to say "Remove two from Jitte, gain 4", I would consider both abilities on the stack at the same time. If you don't specify you are holding priority, then it is assumed that you aren't and that can be taken advantage of.
This is the policy I was remembering, and I interpret it to mean the opposite, in this case. The assumption is that, unless otherwise stated (even if it's advantageous for the player using the shortcut), there's a moment in time when the first ability is on the stack by itself and the Jitte player has passed priority to the Skullcrack player. If you wait for them to add the second ability to the stack, you have to pass priority, and the first ability resolves (because both players passed priority consecutively). The assumption of passing priority after *each* object is added to the stack means that, unless otherwise stated (or obviously implied, e.g. counterspell after a Lightning Bolt), every object is added to an empty stack.
Quote from Asterisk »
Does everyone just conceded to Counterbalance?
Depending on what you play, you have more outs to Counter-Top lock than a lot of decks. Unearthing Hellspark, Sacrificing Barbarian Ring, and playing Volcanic Fallout are all plays that their counter-wall won't stop. Other than these, the key is to overload them with spells on a single turn, which burn is especially capable of doing via "free" spells like Fireblast and Rift Bolt (which is free on the alpha-strike turn). When you go for the win, you have a lot of stack-based interactions: casting a spell at one CMC to force them to use mana for Top so that you can cast a spell at a different CMC; or casting a spell in response to a Top activation when they run out of mana. It's very good if you can wait for a turn after which they've spent a lot of mana, so they won't have access to Counterspell. If you can land an early persistent damage source (especially Lavamancer or Vortex), you can put pressure on them to tap out in the mid game. If they do, you can go all-in when they don't have enough resources to counter everything, and if they don't tap out mid-game, you can use the persistent damage and uncounterable effects to grind out a win.
I don't want to give the impression that Counter Top is an advantageous or even 50-50 match. However, depending on your deck, you can fight against them. They aren't nearly as tough of a matchup as combo. Unless it's the top deck of the format, it's not enough reason not to play burn if we have other good matchups.
I've used it in Reject rare draft once, but yeah he can't take effect until at best turn 3 so it's not any faster, and he swings for 2 per turn (same as vortex) the only thing I see he can do that vortex can't is dodge spell pierce and block, and personally neither out weigh that he eats removal all day.
This is the policy I was remembering, and I interpret it to mean the opposite, in this case. The assumption is that, unless otherwise stated (even if it's advantageous for the player using the shortcut), there's a moment in time when the first ability is on the stack by itself and the Jitte player has passed priority to the Skullcrack player. If you wait for them to add the second ability to the stack, you have to pass priority, and the first ability resolves (because both players passed priority consecutively). The assumption of passing priority after *each* object is added to the stack means that, unless otherwise stated (or obviously implied, e.g. counterspell after a Lightning Bolt), every object is added to an empty stack.
I think you are right.
I definitely do not like this rule because it rewards sloppy play. I've always played it the other way around, the way I described. I think the ruling would benefit from an update such as "whenever a player casts a spell, that player is assumed to be passing priority unless explicitly stating otherwise, or, unless the player casts multiple spells in succession without creating an opportunity for an audible pause..."
Player one makes an play, passes the ball to player two.
Player two has a chance to respond, if player two decides to respond he must do so starting his play with the term "In Response"
Player one then has the option to respond back but any card played without the key phrase ends the stack and starts the stack anew.
This lets the game move at a steady flow while also meaning that all can have their chance to react. If you fail to do so and you have been playing more than a year I see no reason why you should be let off the hook on this.
Last, and the reason I am in this thread, How does Burn do against Counter top and Dredge? Both are pains in my local scene and I have no wish to "Join them".
Ball Lightning is good for the same reason that Spark Elemental and Hell spark Elemental are good. played when your opponent is racing you and they're tapping out, or you know they don't have those removal spells, dealing 6 dmg with one card on turn three can mean ,
Turn 1 - 3dmg
Turn 2 - 6 dmg
Turn 3 - 10 dmg , ball lightning followed by fireblast
if you don't understand why this can be good you are stupid
that and it always brings the priceless oh faces
whenever someone scores a win with ball lightning, everyone sitting with you will think you're devilishly crafty. it always gets attention and good vibes. you play it because - its ball lightning!
Ball Lightning is good for the same reason that Spark Elemental and Hell spark Elemental are good. played when your opponent is racing you and they're tapping out, or you know they don't have those removal spells, dealing 6 dmg with one card on turn three can mean ,
Turn 1 - 3dmg
Turn 2 - 6 dmg
Turn 3 - 10 dmg , ball lightning followed by fireblast
this is of course assuming they don't have anything to block with, yes ball lightning is 6 damage for 3, but it might as well read deal 6 damage divided the way target player chooses to them self or creatures they control. once again Ball lightning is a great burn card the problem is it's not our best option. If realizing this makes me stupid then I guess I've been playing this game wrong for years.
As for the Question about Jitte, the way the judges I've seen rule it it works like this they say I remove 2 counter from jitte gain 4 life, it is the same as maintaining priority and putting both on the stack, neither resolves until your opponent responses. this leaves you open to hitting the second trigger and nixing both. I've never seen any one be rewarded by saying wait then I gain the others because you didn't respond to them. But maybe that's just up this way they do it?
Turn 1 - 3dmg
Turn 2 - 6 dmg
Turn 3 - 10 dmg , ball lightning followed by fireblast
if you don't understand why this can be good you are stupid
If you think this is a particularly good goldfish speed, then you haven't experimented enough with burn. Without Goblin Guide, this is the best turn 3 Ball Lightning play sequence you have, and it doesn't even win. So Ball Lightning (in your list) necessarily decreases your turn 3 goldfish rate (an important measure for success against combo and a generally informative summary of the "speed" of the deck) because 0% of hands with Ball Lightning win on turn 3. I've played burn lists that goldfish turn 3 wins 20% of the time. Goblin Guide can get that 6 damage for only one mana, which allows you to cast all of your spells by turn 3.
Three mana spells hurt you in a lot of ways when trying to win quickly. There's a strong chance you don't see a third land by turn 3 or 4, making Ball Lightning worse than Raging Goblin. It uses up so much of the mana resource that it replaces its extra damage with one or two fewer spells cast by turn 3 or 4. For all that, you get a card that is answered by one mana spells that are in everyone's deck. If you surprise people with Ball Lightning, it can be (mildly) good for turn 5 wins (which is what the Ball Lightning decks of standard were doing three years ago), but if they happen to have mana open (or if they Daze or FoW it), you're going to struggle to deal 20 damage by turn 7 because you've given them so much of a mana advantage that they'll be able to afford one or two more answers than usual for your early onslaught. Goblin Guide may have all of the same weaknesses as Ball Lightning, but it isn't an enormous tempo loss when it gets Bolted or countered.
Skullcrack and Ball Lightning are both decent cards.
Skullcrack is 1.5/1 damage to mana, 3/1 dmg per card and can be more if it prevents life gain. It is good but not a must include. It isn't even always better than Incinerate. I think it is reasonable to replace a few copies of any of the 2 mana cards in tier 2 above with it, especially Flame Rift.
Ball Lightning is frequently unexpected and usually gets in for 6 or 2-4 and acts as removal on a creature. Once it is expected then it will change the way people play...leaving up blockers, holding onto removal, etc... This is all experience from Modern for me personally but I increased my number in that deck from 2 to 4 because it was almost always 6 for 3 mana and 1 card; that's pretty good. It is better in a deck with more creatures.
Overall, however, I doubt I will be adding either to my Legacy Burn deck unless I am feeling like testing. I feel like there are 60 better cards available in Legacy.
There seems to be a phenomena where mtg players tend to see new cards with rose colored glasses. As a mostly eternal player, I just don't have that. The card has to be better than what is already available.
As far as lands...I would personally never go below 18. You could go to 14 if you were ok with only 1 land but burn almost always wants 2-3.
I just don't see the reasons why Skullcrack should NOT be considered a better card than Flame rift for Burn decks.
Many people have explained why it should be considered better: instant speed, not self-damaging (huge thing vs fast-clock decks), negates lifegain (even more huge, considering all the Jittes / Batterkulls / Shamans / Oozes flying around).
I wouldn't remove any core spells (16 bolts, PoP, Fireblast, Guide) for Skullcrack. I don't feel like it is better than Vexing Devil or Sulfuric Vortex.
I feel that it could only realistically replace Flame Rift. Maybe Keldon Marauders or Hellspark? I feel like Flame Rift has always been one of the weaker cards in burn and this seems better overall. Life gain will be a more frequent issue than Leyline of Sanctity and all the Aggro and Tempo decks aren't always upset to see you do 4 to yourself either.
TL;DR: I would only consider Skullcrack to replace Flame Rift (if you are even running it).
Apparently I agree with you. I almost put Flame Rift into Tier 3 because I am not a fan of it but it has been in many winning lists (though my classification of tier 3 wouldn't prohibit that from happening). I probably will continue to not run Flame Rift and won't start running Skullcrack. There are 60 better cards to run in burn IMO.
4x Goblin Guide
4x Grim Lavamancer
Instants:
4x Fireblast
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Price of Progress
3x Searing Blaze
3x Sonic Seizure
4x Flame Rift
4x Rift Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
Land:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Arid Mesa
2x Scalding Tarn
9x Mountain
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Keldon Marauders
1x Price of Progress
1x Pyroblast
1x Searing Blaze
3x Shattering Spree
1x Sonic Seizure
I'm 1-1 so far. First match, I rolled over a Reanimator variant. Second match I got rolled over by Omnipresence.
LISTEN TO MAH SONGZ!
@BillyTheFridge
RGoblinsR
RWerewolf StompyR
URU/R DelverRU
RGBelcherGR
BThe GateB
GBLoam PoxBG
WGBNic FitBGW
UHigh TideU
UMerfolkU
UFaerieNinjaStillU
WBUAffinityUBW
GSquirrelsG
UWGSliversGWU
It's dumb tech, anyhow. I'm 1-2 losing to Zombie Bombardment with some janky hands.
I think Vexing Devil would have been a better choice. I should have snagged some.
LISTEN TO MAH SONGZ!
@BillyTheFridge
Ball Lightning is always going to be a red card that I just wish could be played somewhere competitively but is just too easy to deal with Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay running around in Legacy these days. I think another card I wish could have been played more was apocalypse, though it wasn't a burn card (or great card) it was featured as a sideboard one of in Dave Price's Sligh deck that won a Pro Tour way back when mono-red decks were coming up as a respectable force in Mtg.
If Flame Rift can be played, which is two Shocks on one card, why not three Shocks on one card?
The damage isn't guaranteed. I'd play non-existent card over Ball Lighting, RRR Big Frigging Explosion deals 6 damage to each player.
Ball Lightning is like the Vexing Devil of 'big frigging explosion' (sorry VD fans). Even when it gobbles up a goblin or two, it only provides the opponent with ways to neutralize it.
- see "The Twilight Zone - The Howling Man" to find out what happens when have to count on Vexing Devil to win a game.
Legacy:
RWBG Goblins
RRR Burn
WBU Affinity
UBR Sac-Land Tendrils!
BBBPox
Next possible deck: D&T, but that just wouldn't be right.
Modern: R Goblins (work in progress)
Standard: I only care about standard when Goblins is a deck.
Limited: I only care about limited when Goblins are in the set.
Pauper:
RGoblins
URCloudpost
other decks
Goblins.
Wouldn't the fact that boros charm require white make the deck more unreliable in mana, or can it handle it?
Is skullcrack maindeckable? What's gonna happen to sulfuric vortex?
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
Boros Charm is a no go because it wrecks the manabase, opening us up to Stifle, Wasteland, and our own PoPs.
Skullcrack on the other hand is love, and you should maindeck the playset.
Boros Charm is pretty much Flame Rift where you take four then gain four...the Lightning Helix of Flame Rift if you will. So as far as spell quality is concerned, white only negates the self damage of Flame Rift.
The indestructible clause on Boros Charm is really only tech for saving Grim Lavamancer in a pinch against MU where he is relevant (unfortunately, StP and Terminus make this function less useful), or possibly 'countering an Abrupt Decay' on Sulfuric Vortex (Unfortunately, Plateau probably gets Wasteland'ed first). You could also use Boros Charm to prevent Plateau from being destroyed, but that can't be why Burn splashes white.
The damage provided by double strike is never equal to the four to the head. Double striking Goblins, Marauders, Elementals are never necessary (excluding rare Leyline of Sanctity situations), especially at the expense of a card. I suppose the exception to the rule would be Steppe Lynx, who can easily turn BC into 5 damage for two or even more if you hold an extra fetchland. I think Steppe Lynx builds should run a high 14 fetchlands, because you need pretty much every land to be a fetch in order to excuse playing Steppe Lynx. Once you're playing Steppe Lynx, Searing Blaze becomes a better card than Boros Charm.
The splash does hurt. Getting hit by Wasteland sucks. In many matchups, the dual lands will feel like the worst cards in the deck and you'll try to fetch them out last.
The Sideboard is where white has a chance to make an actual difference in the game, but white isn't as good at beating Counterbalance as green, and I don't believe I've ever heard of a Burn deck splashing Grip. <<< Does everyone just conceded to Counterbalance?
I think Skullcrack is borderline playable. It doesn't fill the function of Vortex, a repeating source of damage, but it does prevent damage prevention...but for the most part 'damage prevention' is not entirely present in Legacy right now and not particularly relevant to Burn (if it was, Burn would not be playable). I feel like Skullcrack was printed to give Modern RDW a chance to beat the hate, but it certainly wasn't pushed to Legacy power level.
edit - Good point by Uberbacon about Skullcrack though. If they were going to gain life anyways, I suppose you could consider prevented lifegain as damage and play for that opportunity. I have nothing but positive feelings about Skullcrack, it's just unfortunate that Burn might HAVE TO play it.
Legacy:
RWBG Goblins
RRR Burn
WBU Affinity
UBR Sac-Land Tendrils!
BBBPox
Next possible deck: D&T, but that just wouldn't be right.
Modern: R Goblins (work in progress)
Standard: I only care about standard when Goblins is a deck.
Limited: I only care about limited when Goblins are in the set.
Pauper:
RGoblins
URCloudpost
other decks
Goblins.
That is correct. I think if the opponent says something like "remove two counters from Jitte to gain 4 life" this is considered to be a shortcut for "I intend to remove one counter from Umezawa's Jitte to gain 2 life, *then wait for that to resolve*, then keep priority and remove another counter to gain 2 more life." When several spells or abilities are played sequentially, unless otherwise stated (e.g. by saying "remove a counter; in response, remove another counter"), they are considered to be played and resolved on individual stacks.
If they do something like this, you can ask them to rewind to the point when they activated the ability the first time. Immediately activating it the second time skips over waiting for the first activation to resolve; during that time, you gain priority and have the right to do something (like cast Skullcrack) in response to the first activation. So you can keep them from gaining life from the first activation; then, in response to Skullcrack (since the game has state been rewound, they can change their plans), they can remove other counters before Skullcrack resolves in order to gain life. Alternatively, you can Skullcrack in response to the last activation for the same net effect on life totals, but the first version can be advantageous to induce them to remove the other counters so that you can win a Jitte activations vs. burn spells battle to finish the game.
Sig and Avatar Credit: Heroes of the Plane Studios
There is a loophole to the rule that I am aware of. It is essentially a shortcut, or a 9 times out of 10 rule if you will.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=judge/article/20071109a
In other words, if someone were to say "Remove two from Jitte, gain 4", I would consider both abilities on the stack at the same time. If you don't specify you are holding priority, then it is assumed that you aren't and that can be taken advantage of.
Legacy Burn
NO Combo Elves
Reanimator
Trades
Burn Primer
:symg:Free Gaea's Cradle:symg:
Despite the undeniable power of those 3-drop spells, though, I can't help wondering whether land counts could be lowered quite a bit if the curve dropped even more. Switching Vortex for Skullcrack and running that, Fireblast, Flame Rift, PoP as the only 2-drops could enable land counts of 15, maybe even 14. We have a 10 card window to draw the second land (10 cards by turn 4) and a 0-land opening mulligan of about 10%. That's about what a 21-land deck will do combining land flood probability with 0-1 land hands.
Not having land to cast spells is painful, sure, and I might be just totally wrong about everything here, but I'm of the opinion that insufficient threat density is just as fatal. This addition of a cheaper, admittedly worse but workable alternative might result in a lower curve, increased density, and more reliably lethal deck.
Next tourney I'll give it a whirl. Maybe.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Thanks, good advice. Goblins 5-8 is exactly what I want to be doing with Burn anyways.
I agree that the green splash is all about Grip. I just answers everything a little bit better than Needle and Shusher. I'd throw a Taiga into the mix or even than interesting Rgb version you mention if I could before I'd stick Plateaus in the deck.
I think playing too few land in Burn makes it a bit crappier against Daze and Spell Pierce and Thalia, while lowering the curve lowers the card/damage ratio. That being said, cutting Vortex lowers the curve significantly. Then, Fireblast is the only high curve card.
I also like always drawing the land I need in the first seven since taking a mulligan is like drawing one too many lands anyways. I'd rather mulligan a hand of 5 Land and 2 Burn knowing I'll probably draw 2 Land next time than mulligan to oblivion because of bad luck. Also, double Fireblast in hand creates dead cards if you don't have four Lands. I'm not the professional Burn player though, that's just my approach to playing almost any deck I play.
- As a counter argument to my own, I suppose replacing lands with Shocks even would actually increase the damage per card ratio. It could be done, but the other one drop bolts have proven to be a little junky over the years, and I feel like this meta calls for 2-3 MD Searing Blaze, a card that likes 2-3 land hands.
Legacy:
RWBG Goblins
RRR Burn
WBU Affinity
UBR Sac-Land Tendrils!
BBBPox
Next possible deck: D&T, but that just wouldn't be right.
Modern: R Goblins (work in progress)
Standard: I only care about standard when Goblins is a deck.
Limited: I only care about limited when Goblins are in the set.
Pauper:
RGoblins
URCloudpost
other decks
Goblins.
back when I ran burn all the time (during time spiral block and before) I ran almost 100% one drop burn spells and usually included shock variants it worked well at 16 lands. I wouldn't cut down to 15 and never to 14 because you really do want to have more then just 1 land before turn 4, we get our power from more then one burn spell per turn, 3 damage to the dome a turn isn't going to win the game.
Legacy:
RGWBUDredgeUBWGR
:symrg:Belcher:symrg:
WD&TW
Affinity
WGriffinsW (pauper)
U/thopter comboU/ (peasant)
:symbg:Moosebite:symbg: (peasant)
RGobo tokensR (peasant)
R slide R (peasant)
:symur:pingers:symur:
This is the policy I was remembering, and I interpret it to mean the opposite, in this case. The assumption is that, unless otherwise stated (even if it's advantageous for the player using the shortcut), there's a moment in time when the first ability is on the stack by itself and the Jitte player has passed priority to the Skullcrack player. If you wait for them to add the second ability to the stack, you have to pass priority, and the first ability resolves (because both players passed priority consecutively). The assumption of passing priority after *each* object is added to the stack means that, unless otherwise stated (or obviously implied, e.g. counterspell after a Lightning Bolt), every object is added to an empty stack.
Depending on what you play, you have more outs to Counter-Top lock than a lot of decks. Unearthing Hellspark, Sacrificing Barbarian Ring, and playing Volcanic Fallout are all plays that their counter-wall won't stop. Other than these, the key is to overload them with spells on a single turn, which burn is especially capable of doing via "free" spells like Fireblast and Rift Bolt (which is free on the alpha-strike turn). When you go for the win, you have a lot of stack-based interactions: casting a spell at one CMC to force them to use mana for Top so that you can cast a spell at a different CMC; or casting a spell in response to a Top activation when they run out of mana. It's very good if you can wait for a turn after which they've spent a lot of mana, so they won't have access to Counterspell. If you can land an early persistent damage source (especially Lavamancer or Vortex), you can put pressure on them to tap out in the mid game. If they do, you can go all-in when they don't have enough resources to counter everything, and if they don't tap out mid-game, you can use the persistent damage and uncounterable effects to grind out a win.
I don't want to give the impression that Counter Top is an advantageous or even 50-50 match. However, depending on your deck, you can fight against them. They aren't nearly as tough of a matchup as combo. Unless it's the top deck of the format, it's not enough reason not to play burn if we have other good matchups.
Can't say I've ever tested it. It eats removal easier than Sulfuric Vortex without doing the additional damage.
formely known as Wolf_Cub82
my altered cards on Facebook my altered cards on Tumblr
BurnR(Legacy)
ReanimatorUB(Legacy)
Ghave, Guru of SporesWGB(Commander)
HumansRW(Standard)
Legacy:
RGWBUDredgeUBWGR
:symrg:Belcher:symrg:
WD&TW
Affinity
WGriffinsW (pauper)
U/thopter comboU/ (peasant)
:symbg:Moosebite:symbg: (peasant)
RGobo tokensR (peasant)
R slide R (peasant)
:symur:pingers:symur:
You don't want to use that as lifegain hate because the only thing guaranteed from that card (barring it getting countered) is a 2/2 wither.
I think you are right.
I definitely do not like this rule because it rewards sloppy play. I've always played it the other way around, the way I described. I think the ruling would benefit from an update such as "whenever a player casts a spell, that player is assumed to be passing priority unless explicitly stating otherwise, or, unless the player casts multiple spells in succession without creating an opportunity for an audible pause..."
Legacy Burn
NO Combo Elves
Reanimator
Trades
Burn Primer
:symg:Free Gaea's Cradle:symg:
Player one makes an play, passes the ball to player two.
Player two has a chance to respond, if player two decides to respond he must do so starting his play with the term "In Response"
Player one then has the option to respond back but any card played without the key phrase ends the stack and starts the stack anew.
This lets the game move at a steady flow while also meaning that all can have their chance to react. If you fail to do so and you have been playing more than a year I see no reason why you should be let off the hook on this.
Last, and the reason I am in this thread, How does Burn do against Counter top and Dredge? Both are pains in my local scene and I have no wish to "Join them".
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Turn 1 - 3dmg
Turn 2 - 6 dmg
Turn 3 - 10 dmg , ball lightning followed by fireblast
if you don't understand why this can be good you are stupid
that and it always brings the priceless oh faces
whenever someone scores a win with ball lightning, everyone sitting with you will think you're devilishly crafty. it always gets attention and good vibes. you play it because - its ball lightning!
this is of course assuming they don't have anything to block with, yes ball lightning is 6 damage for 3, but it might as well read deal 6 damage divided the way target player chooses to them self or creatures they control. once again Ball lightning is a great burn card the problem is it's not our best option. If realizing this makes me stupid then I guess I've been playing this game wrong for years.
As for the Question about Jitte, the way the judges I've seen rule it it works like this they say I remove 2 counter from jitte gain 4 life, it is the same as maintaining priority and putting both on the stack, neither resolves until your opponent responses. this leaves you open to hitting the second trigger and nixing both. I've never seen any one be rewarded by saying wait then I gain the others because you didn't respond to them. But maybe that's just up this way they do it?
Legacy:
RGWBUDredgeUBWGR
:symrg:Belcher:symrg:
WD&TW
Affinity
WGriffinsW (pauper)
U/thopter comboU/ (peasant)
:symbg:Moosebite:symbg: (peasant)
RGobo tokensR (peasant)
R slide R (peasant)
:symur:pingers:symur:
If you think this is a particularly good goldfish speed, then you haven't experimented enough with burn. Without Goblin Guide, this is the best turn 3 Ball Lightning play sequence you have, and it doesn't even win. So Ball Lightning (in your list) necessarily decreases your turn 3 goldfish rate (an important measure for success against combo and a generally informative summary of the "speed" of the deck) because 0% of hands with Ball Lightning win on turn 3. I've played burn lists that goldfish turn 3 wins 20% of the time. Goblin Guide can get that 6 damage for only one mana, which allows you to cast all of your spells by turn 3.
Three mana spells hurt you in a lot of ways when trying to win quickly. There's a strong chance you don't see a third land by turn 3 or 4, making Ball Lightning worse than Raging Goblin. It uses up so much of the mana resource that it replaces its extra damage with one or two fewer spells cast by turn 3 or 4. For all that, you get a card that is answered by one mana spells that are in everyone's deck. If you surprise people with Ball Lightning, it can be (mildly) good for turn 5 wins (which is what the Ball Lightning decks of standard were doing three years ago), but if they happen to have mana open (or if they Daze or FoW it), you're going to struggle to deal 20 damage by turn 7 because you've given them so much of a mana advantage that they'll be able to afford one or two more answers than usual for your early onslaught. Goblin Guide may have all of the same weaknesses as Ball Lightning, but it isn't an enormous tempo loss when it gets Bolted or countered.
Legacy:
RGWBUDredgeUBWGR
:symrg:Belcher:symrg:
WD&TW
Affinity
WGriffinsW (pauper)
U/thopter comboU/ (peasant)
:symbg:Moosebite:symbg: (peasant)
RGobo tokensR (peasant)
R slide R (peasant)
:symur:pingers:symur:
I feel like they are both about tier 3 Burn cards. This is a large category for me.
Here is my general ranking:
Tier 1 (every deck should contain a playset of these): 16 Bolts, Fireblast, Price of Progress, Goblin Guide, Vexing Devil
Tier 2 (most of your other slots should be filled with these cards, though usually not as 4-ofs, they have proven their value in winning lists): Sulfuric Vortex, Grim Lavamancer, Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders, Figure of Destiny, Flame Rift
Tier 3 (good enough that a few of them won't weaken your deck, they cannot be ruled out on theory alone but also haven't proven themselves): Skullcrack,Ball Lightning, Flamebreak, Volcanic Fallout, Reckless Abandon, Magma Jet, Spark Elemental, Incinerate, a few other cards...
Close, but not quite there (can be ruled out on theory alone): Fork/Reverberate, Thunderous Wrath, Browbeat, Kiln Fiend, a few others...
Skullcrack and Ball Lightning are both decent cards.
Skullcrack is 1.5/1 damage to mana, 3/1 dmg per card and can be more if it prevents life gain. It is good but not a must include. It isn't even always better than Incinerate. I think it is reasonable to replace a few copies of any of the 2 mana cards in tier 2 above with it, especially Flame Rift.
Ball Lightning is frequently unexpected and usually gets in for 6 or 2-4 and acts as removal on a creature. Once it is expected then it will change the way people play...leaving up blockers, holding onto removal, etc... This is all experience from Modern for me personally but I increased my number in that deck from 2 to 4 because it was almost always 6 for 3 mana and 1 card; that's pretty good. It is better in a deck with more creatures.
Overall, however, I doubt I will be adding either to my Legacy Burn deck unless I am feeling like testing. I feel like there are 60 better cards available in Legacy.
There seems to be a phenomena where mtg players tend to see new cards with rose colored glasses. As a mostly eternal player, I just don't have that. The card has to be better than what is already available.
As far as lands...I would personally never go below 18. You could go to 14 if you were ok with only 1 land but burn almost always wants 2-3.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
Apparently I agree with you. I almost put Flame Rift into Tier 3 because I am not a fan of it but it has been in many winning lists (though my classification of tier 3 wouldn't prohibit that from happening). I probably will continue to not run Flame Rift and won't start running Skullcrack. There are 60 better cards to run in burn IMO.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener