Four Jaces with combat damage! That's one tough cookie to crack.
Regarding the sideboard, depending on how much Miracles you tend to face, it's probably a good idea to bring in something. The Rack, Cursed Scroll, Shrieking Affliction, Luminarch Ascension, Bitterblossom, Elspeth, or something like that really helps.
Bant can't really protect Jace from combat damage, but Miracles can do so easily.
For the lulz, if you have to deal with the RiP-Helm variety of Miracles, packing your own Helm of Obedience is pretty funny. "Rest in Peace? Cool. Enlightened Tutor..."
Four Jaces with combat damage! That's one tough cookie to crack.
Regarding the sideboard, depending on how much Miracles you tend to face, it's probably a good idea to bring in something. The Rack, Cursed Scroll, Shrieking Affliction, Luminarch Ascension, Bitterblossom, Elspeth, or something like that really helps.
Bant can't really protect Jace from combat damage, but Miracles can do so easily.
For the lulz, if you have to deal with the RiP-Helm variety of Miracles, packing your own Helm of Obedience is pretty funny. "Rest in Peace? Cool. Enlightened Tutor..."
That would be hilarious! I don't see much miracles around here, but if I take this deck to a bigger tournament, it would be worth considering some slots for it.
This SB plan has opened up a lot of options, and I keep thinking of things I'd like to throw in there, if I could track down a chains of mephistopheles I could see it being really good, possibly instead of choke? Also, dystopia is one I used to use in the gate(really just because it's one of the only ways for black to 'remove' enchantments), but could it be good in here too, I wonder... Great in a mirror match at least!
I was also wondering if this strategy might be a bit weak to blue in general... I mean, enlightened tutor already has to get through the counterspells, but not only that- the card I get is revealed and then IT has to get through, and it's usually going to be something that they will really want to counter. I assume a good blue player is just going to let me tutor, and then counter the spell, getting him a 2 for 1. I guess you want to be patient with the tutor, not run it out on in the early game...
I made the deck Junk-coloured because the best fatties are in Junk colours--Goyf, KotR, SFM into Batterskull, and others that aren't in this deck such as Scavenging Ooze and Tombstalker. (Bob and Deathrite are still in the deck because they're too strong to not play. Deathrite also ensures that I can cast Deluge faster and more consistently through LD.)
Toxic Deluge has been pretty good in this deck--it creams Goblins, creams Death and Taxes, creams Maverick, helps stabilize against Merfolk (although I'm in Mutavault range afterward somewhat often), is a blowout against Jund and Shardless BUG surprisingly often, kicks out Nimble Mongoose and/or two guys against RUG Tempo Thresh, wipes out Belcher's Empty the Warrens on time, and even has its way with Reanimator surprisingly often (it's killed Iona on white, Elesh Norn + Tidespout Tyrant, and a Griselbrand on less than 7 life so far). It's not as good against Stoneblade because it can ride fewer threats to victory and not risk overextending like the decks with Cascaders, ANT and TES still Tendrils my face consistently instead, and Deluge isn't as good against Sneak Show because it only really hits Show and Telled-in Emrakul. It's also been variable against Combo Elves and Imperial Painter--if Elves had Symbiote + Visionary, it taunts Deluge with CA, and if I can't ambush Painter's Servant with it, Painter still has enough time to assemble its combo somewhat often through a Deluge.
I've found that my build actually enhances Toxic Deluge's performance for these reasons:
I can cast nearly all my deck on 3 basics: Dodging Wasteland and Daze more often when I cast Toxic Deluge has been swell, and I get to do that more often because I can afford to search for only basics fairly often with this build.
KotR is the fattest guy around: I've killed multiple Goyfs with Toxic Deluge in testing (heck, I've killed 2 5/5 KotR's with it, too), and my KotR surviving a board wipe that their Goyfs don't has been great. Deathrite ensures that my KotRs are fatter than theirs.
Anyone else think that big guys and Toxic Deluge is a viable direction for Junk to go?
I've been wanting to fit in Sensei's Divining Top but I'm not really sure what to cut. I'm also not thrilled with the SB. Wanting to find a spot for Engineered Explosives if possible. Also thinking of trying Toxic Deluge over Engineered Plague. Thoughts?
I made a version of Toxic Rock and took it to GP DC, my performance was pretty horrible but largely due to bad hands and such. I did lose against Merfolk due to a Deluge for 3 that got countered, but I was dying very soon without a wipe anyway. Deluge also helps counter the high card advantage of Shardless. It is a very good card.
I think the deck needs some more hand disruption (6 discard, 3-4 Liliana) and manlands (Nantuko Monastery) help maintain your threat base. Your active land count also feels a tad low (22).
The 'Toxic Rock' almost feels like a a version of Deathcloud Rock at times, especially if you can clean a hand out with Liliana or disruption and then Plague Wind the board with Deluge.
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Also, consider that Liliana counts as occasional mana denial, and it starts to become a significant portion of our strategy.
With all these U/W delver TNN decks, should Massacre be in consideration?
Can be cast for free, just can't do -15 life to kill emmy or something.
I've seen plenty of Massacre in Esper Stoneblade sideboards lately, so it's definitely a (sideboard) option.
Be aware that it does kill your own SFMs/Deathrites/Bobs, though, so treat it more like Infest than you would treat Toxic Deluge (I once set X = 1 against Maverick and killed Noble Hierarch + Thalia + Sylvan Safekeeper, leaving my Deathrite alive--Maverick didn't come back).
I'm interested in making a legacy junk list. This seems to be the closest thread to post in. I have all the cards except for a few lands which I can acquire easily. One thing I've noticed from various lists is the lack of vindicate. Maybe I've been out of the loop but I always thought it was pretty good. Has it fallen out of favor or do people just prefer pulse and decay over it?
Just one little question about discard cards-
I know that usually ROCK and Jund play around 7 cards. But what about playing Cabal Therapy? Combined with Lingering Souls it can be real pain for enemy to play with us. Even more than just Hymn or not?
Or which combination you think is the best?
Right now Iam on 2x Inquistion of Kozilek, 2x Thoughseize and 3x Cabal therapy.
_ Answered on my own - Tested - therapy is out, replaced by 3x Hymn
I'd cut a goyf and a hymn and go to 61 cards. With KOTR as a 3 of, you don't also need 4 Goyf as your fat men. And Hymn, I just hate top decking discard late game when my opponent is hellbent already.
My honest opinion: cut either goyfs, knights, or the SFM + batterskull skull. Having all 3 is kind of clashing (not to mention you're lacking space). I think you could also drop the discard to 6 total (so trim TS #4 or hymn #3).
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
R1 - Dredge
* G1 I start on Deathrite, Bog, Knight; he stalls out against Maze, Karakas, and DRS taking Pieces
* G2 I almost get there but he finds a horde of zombies so I call it seeing no shuffle effects and no EE's on the top 3
* G3 I almost Punt by using DRS in my turn and not either: Holding it open, or dropping Teeg. That said, I have Thalia, get a knight, Karakas on GB and Bog his grave; I win in rounds
Games 2-1
Matches 1-0
R2 - 12Post
* G1 Wastelands + Knight => Karakas
* G2 A funky long drawn out game. We both stall on board while I slowly claim control with a Knight, Maze, karakas, Ensnaring Bridge under RiP, Emrakul, Primetime, and we stall out.
Games 3-1-1
Matches 2-0
R3 - Reanimator
* G1 He has a slow start and I put him on BUG Control (TS, Pierce, 3 lands very durdley) About when I expect a jace I land a DRS and he attempts to go off with Elesh Norn (since I'm summoning sick.) He does, but I Lily it. He Exhumes calling my bluff with Knight. I don't bluff. Karakas => Win.
* G2 I start with Nihil Spellbomb, go into 2x DRS, he S&T's into Knight.. Karakas, I win.. (are we seeing a pattern?) He's super pissed off and I'm glowing. 3-0!
Games 5-1-1
Matches 3-0
R4 - Sneakshow, Gerry Thompson
* G1 He's good at the game :s. He S&Ts Omniscience after probing me IIRC, hardcasts Grisel->Emmy->Win
* G2 I see Chains, Thalia, Blind Obedience, and DRS, but he seeing Omniscience again; and I die a sad death with him hellbent.
Games 5-3-1
Matches 3-1
R5 - TES
* G1 I start with EE grinding on his hand and graveyard; he forgets about EE and punts.
* G2 T2 lethal tendrils
* G3 Grindy. EE on board, lethal on board, wasting him when I get the chance. He's got a weak ad nausium and sitting at 4. Manages to squeeze his hand into PiF and go off. Sad times
Games 6-5-1
Matches 3-2
R6 - Oops
* G1 T1 I die with DRS on board, Bog, Knight, Maze in hand. Wish he had been dredge/reanimator/fair
* G2 Grafdiggers,T1; I get a T2, I spend it wrong on a DRS instead of a Thalia and get Belched. I knew I punted almost the second I put him down.
Games 6-7-1
Matches 3-3
R7 - Patriot Delver
* G1 We exchange a couple kill spells then he gets wasted out while I beat for 2.
* G2 Bob gets me about a billion cards as I waste him occasionally, swapping kills and counters here and there. He hardcasts Skull after Bob has nearly killed him, but I have a DRS on board and kill him. Fun highlight; I cast an Italian Chains and call a Judge so he can understand it; he basically says "F*ck that card!" and forces; which made my day lol.
Games 8-7-1
Matches 4-3 (there's still hope!)
R8 - Burn
* G1 I get him low (4-6?)
* G2 I get him to 2 and could've won (but didn't think of it until today.) Had I used knight to waste my own lands the turn I left him back I would've hit for lethal. Sad
Games 8-9-1
Matches 4-4
Planned changes:
-Academy Ruins, +Buried Ruin (why had I never thought of that?)
-USea, +Fetch/Dual/basic Swamp. Unsure yet; needs to tap for black, and possibly white.
-Blind Obedience and ?, +2 Hymn/Gerrard's Verdict/Tidehollow Sculler. I imagine it'll be Sculler
-Card examination:
I didn't find Blind Obedience helpful when i found it nor did I find it against Storm/Oops (where it would've helped against the artifact accel) and that includes against Burn and Sneak/show; which are the main reasons I tried it out.
I brought Chains expecting miracle/delver/BUG(/D&T) heavy environment and fought 6 combo decks and Burn. It's not terrible against Storm/Sneak/etc.. but it's slow compared to just getting an anti-wincon. Portland is as Combo-y as the hype says it is! I saw many Elves, a few Painters, Storms, Belchers, and Sneaks.
I got crap pre-SCG about EE's but they were game winners many times. Hitting TNN once, keeping storm off of goblins 3-out-of-3 games and nailing hordes of zombies. Being 0 next to bob is nice. Again, I was expecting a much different meta, but these are other reasons I like EE MB. KotR is an all-star and Lingering Souls was quite fun as a beater; it feels very safe against fair decks and pitches to lily.
I think Locally I'll be trying out the MB hand disruption but my buddy got 9th with burn and has gotten a few local 4-0's and 3-1s with it, may require SBing.. It's obnoxious that it's a deck.
Wow, I thought I had to stalk you on TheSource to see what you're running. My nit-picky questions
1 - Dryad Arbor with only a miser GSZ (no KotR)?
2 - Why Lingering?
3 - Why not Confidant #4 instead of Library #3?
4 - I lack goyfs. What would you run to "replace" it?
5 - No Thalia?
You're a fantastic player. Just picking your brain.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I realize I'm not him but:
-Lingering is great with equipment and great against Miracles.
-His GSZ is Goyf #4, Ooze #2, or DRS #5 (either grabbing him or getting an arbor to ramp like him) or even just land #23
-3 Sylvan makes no sense unless maybe his library gets killed a lot. Just like Top (for me), it basically indirectly wins the games on it's own by turning you in a threat-heavy blue deck; so consistently seeing it is probably a big deal. Then again, he could always discard a multiple to his Lily or something. I would personally run either tops or a mix of Library/Top (but his aggro variant greatly favors library where as my control variant prefers top.)
IMO; my list (somewhat evolved from the above) would run KotR next to SFM. You don't have to support KotR with very many good lands to make him worth it; and I honestly think that (outside of Burn/Storm MUs) KotR is hands down better than goyf; however when you want to kill someone a turn or two faster; Goyf takes the cake.
It's worth pointing out that his list goes straight for the 2-drops that dominate legacy rather than a 3-drop who's lost his limelight. I still prefer KotR, but meh.
I'd say that even post-board his chances against many combo decks doesn't seem that great. Average S&T, mediocre or worse TES/ANT, mediocre or bad Dredge, OK reanimator. His results may be better than that; but that's just what it looks like comparing how I tend to fair, how Jund tends to fair (which has ~3 more discard main), and that Meddling Mage/Teeg are low impact hate against Storm. I'd wager based on his 76(?) that he's got a reasonable amount of miracles, S&T, and D&T players in his meta with a reasonable TNN representation (BUG/Patriot Delver); with low Storm/Dredge/Reanimator counts.
(For fun I'm hoping he responds with if I'm right at all.)
Yes it does. If you do the math on it, there's more times you'd rather have the 61st bullet than not run it at all. Adrian Sullivan did an article on it if I recall.
Wow, I thought I had to stalk you on TheSource to see what you're running. My nit-picky questions
1 - Dryad Arbor with only a miser GSZ (no KotR)?
2 - Why Lingering?
3 - Why not Confidant #4 instead of Library #3?
4 - I lack goyfs. What would you run to "replace" it?
5 - No Thalia?
You're a fantastic player. Just picking your brain.
1) The Dryad Arbor is there in case you get the GSZ hand with no DRS, as well as the surprise blocker or creature to hook equipment up to. I've won a good portion of games to having equipment open and fetching Arbor EOT to connect. It's also a surprise extra creature in blocking or against Liliana.
2) Lingering Souls was Doran actually for the past two months. Doran tested REALLY well in a Delver and DnT meta (because 1/1 TNN isn't that good, and neither are 1/1 flickerwisps, Thalias, and Revokers but buffing DRS, SFM, and Goyf is excellent). The problem? Miracles is on the rise so you need an attrition-based creature against Jace. Souls helps pressure Walkers as well as carry Equipment.
3) While both are good cards, they do different things. Confidant only allows you to draw one extra card per turn, and it's VERY powerful, but Sylvan can allow you to draw 2 extra cards in a single turn, or give you information about upcoming draws. Sylvan is powerful against Miracles as well, whereas Confidant, while powerful, dies to most of their removal. Overall, I like the 3/3 split but if I had an extra slot, I'd add the last confidant.
4) There is no replacing Goyf, sadly. If I were in your place, if I have 3-4 Goyf slots, I would run 2-3 Doran the Siege Tower and the last Confidant. Doran is very buff and well costed (5/5 for 3 mana), but isn't great against STP.
5) There's no Thalia in the main for obvious reasons (you play more spells than Maverick does), and none in the board since Thalia doesn't hate on Miracles enough. Meddling Mage stops STP and Teeg hangles the rest of their deck, from Humility, Terminus, Entreat, Jace, EE, etc. Mage is also an edge aaginst Sneak and Show and Punishing Jund.
As for KotR, there's a few problems with him, and it's why I didn't suggest him. I played Knight until TNN came out, and the problem is with DRS around as well, Knight cannot profitably attack (unless you're hooking up SOFI, in which case, God help your opponent) into a TNN, cannot usually buff up very much, and has no evasion. It doesn't fly, trample, or have protection. It does Wasteland, but who are you doing that to on Turn 4? Not Miracles. I think you could try him to replace Goyf, and maybe in your metagame he'll be fine. Most of the time, I've found the meta shift to push him a bit out of the forefront. I do love the card.
On contrast, I feel that if you build around Knight, it's a fine card. I think if you run the Depths package as a distinct deck, I think that strategy has merit. I just feel the value-Knight is worse than it used to be.
I've never had TNN or DRS issues with my KotRs; I have Burn and Storm issues (since he's 1-2 turns slower than Goyf.) For me KotR outsizing Goyf, BSK, Tombstalker, or even Sigarda/Primeval Titan (that happened last Sat against nic fit) is hugely relevant. I understand your misgivings without Depths (some locals claim the same thing about me and another Junk depthsless player) but I feel like Depths weakens the manabase too much and is too weak of a combo to go for. IMO it tends to be "Win more" since you've had a couple of untaps with a KotR on the field.
Anything else is gravy. Given that it's only 2 lands different than most lists I feel like the value is easy to attain without hurting you much.
The 2x Loam I tend to run in my lists make wasting with KotR often a double-waste to seal the game up. I realize it sounds infrequent on paper; but a speedy soft-lock is nice to have to make the late-game trivial.
I do think Goyf is superior in speed races for sure and I trust your judgement with running him, but I think KotR is not only really good for a budget alternative, but not bad for non-budget depending on the meta.
Budget Goyfs
Next to that; I'd suggest Warden of the Beyond, Werebear (lol) or Jotun Grunt as alternatives. Warden synergizes well enough with DRS, is big, and vigilance isn't bad for being color-light. Grunt has always been "meh", but it's not terrible in the meta since he makes sure KotR/Goyf stay small; his anti-synergy with DRS is noticable (but having both is good security against grave decks) but his synergy with Noble Hierarch isn't bad. I also agree that Doran is a reasonable replacement since he also punches through Goyfs and BSKs while keeping TNN tame, but his mana-cost is unforgiving and being legendary means the occasional double you see of Goyf or KotR don't happen.
I know a legacy player who's running Werebear in RUG Delver in place of Goyf, and it does OK for $0.25. I'd support him with Darkblast or something to help get your grave up quickly.
I've still been *vastly* preferring EE over Plow. It kills counterbalance, angel/dredge/storm/souls tokens, hits for 0 on DC triggers, and I often get 2-for-1s @2CMC since people see wastelands and go Jitte. Because of that they plop it down and get double-timewalked. It works on Enchantress, Affinity, Delver/Deathrite, or occasionally kills Lily or Jace if I need it to. Plow is so dead so often that despite the possible tempo gain, legacy just doesn't care with low mana costs anymore IMO. It does make my deck weaker to Stalkers and Reanimator, but KotR works to keep those problems minimal. This 2CMC targetting tends to work well (even against people who know me) simply because if your entire objective is to only have a single 2CMC card on the field at a time you'll find your deck not working; so people walk into it regularly; compensating themselves with SFM card advantage or the fact that goyf came in free off of Shardless. Either way; I like cancelling out this card advantage while having significant outs to problem decks. I can understand why *others* don't run it; like in your list with so many 2-drops, it'd be hard to get value out of it except for when sideboarding.
The lack of SFM in the list and the KotR in the goyf slot gives EE a nice big area to play in right where most decks want to live.
I'll say that originally I had a light 4-color splash like you did with Academy Ruins. USea gets DRS still and fulfills BB reqs while Ruins gives me a different broken plan with only one KotR fetch; it also pumps EE to an easy 4 or 5 with DRS. I haven't found my deck slow enough to need such a grindy plan again lately (hence it's out) but it was a nice ace. I somewhat like Meddling Mage since that or Teeg block Terminus and allow you a fast Miracles clock while "overextending" (since they can't 2 or 3 for one you until they off him.) It's neat tech.
I honestly think TNN is vastly over-rated and if you can't race it with Souls and DRS in the main, you've got bigger problems. I'll mention though that EE is also a remedy for that.
@61 cards
I'm the same way. unless the deck has an absolute must 4-of I have to see (like a combo deck), I'd much rather cram in another 4-by of something I need than have a 4x 3x, 4x 2x, 4x 1x, drop a land, or similar; especially when card 61 is Maze next to Knight or something and I know my other choices are the right number.
@sdematt: Thanks for the feedback. Gives me a lot to think about
@Budget Goyfs -- my go-to would be some combination of KotR (with DD package), Scooze, and/or Pridemage (very under-rated card)
@tescrin: 0 Liliana, 2 Loam, 3 EE? You raise interesting points on EE. However, I hope a typo is involved in your list. Liliana of the Veil is the reason I'd play Junk. EE is a great way to x-for-1 and depending on the meta is better than Deed. I'm not sure I'd drop STP entirely for it. Maybe go 4 Decay, 2 STP -- with EE's in the board (or EE main, STP in board)? EE on 1 against fair decks literally butchers them (vial, moms, mana dorks, etc). EE also pairs well against Miracles (shoots CB's and Angels for days)
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
There is indeed a typo; I run a full set of 4. I'll go edit that now. Yeah, EE for Mom decks is pretty nice since they won't revoke it blindly and Vial->Mom->Go is such a lovely opening to play against with it :). They over extend because they're safe with active mom and you just play out your dudes knowing that you're going to wipe em.
Again, half of why I play EE is also that it's a "pretend Abrupt Decay" against Miracles that happens to also block angels.
Even so, an EE build (which I haven't seen online, it's my own little thing) has to be *really* careful with the number of two drop permanents in the deck. When I hit 6-7 I noticed it becoming very awkward (especially if any of them are Tidehollow Sculler..) Lingering Souls works well with the EE plan since you rarely go on 0-CMC and Souls evasion can help close out games for TNN, other KotR decks, or just block Marit Lage and his buddies while you stall.
What you gain is a nice anti SFM plan, what you lose are Goyf/SFM plans; which are both powerful. However as a budget option it certainly works very well next to KotR; and popping your own bobs doesn't feel too bad if he's already drawn you some cards.
EDIT: I'll note that the biggest deck I'm losing to is Burn. I've been pushed out of the money the last couple times just because I'll run into a Burn deck and being KotR over Goyf really hurts that MU.
If you try a list like this; keep in mind the mindset is firmly in "control" against most decks. Often you grind them to a halt and then win off of Bob+DRS swinging for 3-4. I'll go into single digits many games before stabilizing; so often to the point that I don't really worry about it now.
EDIT 2: My list started from a standard Jund build (4 discard, 3 hymn, 4 Lily, 4 Bob, 4 DRS, 4 Beaters) and grew from there. The EEs, KotR, and extra discard give it significantly better combo MUs while the lack of BBE, Bolt, and Goyf->KotR make it weaker to Burn and sometimes things like Merfolk or other intense aggro. I haven't played against a lot of non-burn non-delver aggro since adding triple-hymn; but I imagine it helps quite a bit.
Delver may be worse on the most recent list since I've dropped a land, but DRS, Decay, 2 Basics, and Loam imply the MU should still be fine. The biggest issue I ran into last week was Tombstalker and chumps keeping Lily off of him. Souls should help that.
After all of that, I had a game or two last night (and remember the last few weeks, probably others) that would rather play with Deed than EE. Fought a *casual* elf deck with it's 1,2,3, and 4 mana cost dudes where getting the most value basically meant hitting useless piles of 1/1s or nailing my own perms at 3.
EE definitely makes Bob much nicer to you and you occasionally get walkers; but losing to a deck like that is obnoxious enough, I'm sure Goblins or Merfolk might be the same way. Any blowouts I've had with merfolk could've been achieved by Deed all the same. We'll see; I have a lot of things that can bolt me off of Bob now; so we're approaching replacing with Tombstalker or some other big dumb beater, but the list is probably too grave heavy for that.
Regarding the sideboard, depending on how much Miracles you tend to face, it's probably a good idea to bring in something. The Rack, Cursed Scroll, Shrieking Affliction, Luminarch Ascension, Bitterblossom, Elspeth, or something like that really helps.
Bant can't really protect Jace from combat damage, but Miracles can do so easily.
For the lulz, if you have to deal with the RiP-Helm variety of Miracles, packing your own Helm of Obedience is pretty funny. "Rest in Peace? Cool. Enlightened Tutor..."
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
That would be hilarious! I don't see much miracles around here, but if I take this deck to a bigger tournament, it would be worth considering some slots for it.
This SB plan has opened up a lot of options, and I keep thinking of things I'd like to throw in there, if I could track down a chains of mephistopheles I could see it being really good, possibly instead of choke? Also, dystopia is one I used to use in the gate(really just because it's one of the only ways for black to 'remove' enchantments), but could it be good in here too, I wonder... Great in a mirror match at least!
I was also wondering if this strategy might be a bit weak to blue in general... I mean, enlightened tutor already has to get through the counterspells, but not only that- the card I get is revealed and then IT has to get through, and it's usually going to be something that they will really want to counter. I assume a good blue player is just going to let me tutor, and then counter the spell, getting him a 2 for 1. I guess you want to be patient with the tutor, not run it out on in the early game...
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Toxic Deluge
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pithing Needle
1 Oblivion Ring
I made the deck Junk-coloured because the best fatties are in Junk colours--Goyf, KotR, SFM into Batterskull, and others that aren't in this deck such as Scavenging Ooze and Tombstalker. (Bob and Deathrite are still in the deck because they're too strong to not play. Deathrite also ensures that I can cast Deluge faster and more consistently through LD.)
Toxic Deluge has been pretty good in this deck--it creams Goblins, creams Death and Taxes, creams Maverick, helps stabilize against Merfolk (although I'm in Mutavault range afterward somewhat often), is a blowout against Jund and Shardless BUG surprisingly often, kicks out Nimble Mongoose and/or two guys against RUG Tempo Thresh, wipes out Belcher's Empty the Warrens on time, and even has its way with Reanimator surprisingly often (it's killed Iona on white, Elesh Norn + Tidespout Tyrant, and a Griselbrand on less than 7 life so far). It's not as good against Stoneblade because it can ride fewer threats to victory and not risk overextending like the decks with Cascaders, ANT and TES still Tendrils my face consistently instead, and Deluge isn't as good against Sneak Show because it only really hits Show and Telled-in Emrakul. It's also been variable against Combo Elves and Imperial Painter--if Elves had Symbiote + Visionary, it taunts Deluge with CA, and if I can't ambush Painter's Servant with it, Painter still has enough time to assemble its combo somewhat often through a Deluge.
I've found that my build actually enhances Toxic Deluge's performance for these reasons:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
1 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
I've been wanting to fit in Sensei's Divining Top but I'm not really sure what to cut. I'm also not thrilled with the SB. Wanting to find a spot for Engineered Explosives if possible. Also thinking of trying Toxic Deluge over Engineered Plague. Thoughts?
GWBJunk TokensBWG
Modern
GURScapeshiftRUG
BGRDredgevineRGB
URSTORM!RU
UWTezzeret ControlWU
Legacy
BWStonebladeWB
BUGBUG ControlGUB
I think the deck needs some more hand disruption (6 discard, 3-4 Liliana) and manlands (Nantuko Monastery) help maintain your threat base. Your active land count also feels a tad low (22).
The 'Toxic Rock' almost feels like a a version of Deathcloud Rock at times, especially if you can clean a hand out with Liliana or disruption and then Plague Wind the board with Deluge.
-MTG Salvation.
Can be cast for free, just can't do -15 life to kill emmy or something.
I've seen plenty of Massacre in Esper Stoneblade sideboards lately, so it's definitely a (sideboard) option.
Be aware that it does kill your own SFMs/Deathrites/Bobs, though, so treat it more like Infest than you would treat Toxic Deluge (I once set X = 1 against Maverick and killed Noble Hierarch + Thalia + Sylvan Safekeeper, leaving my Deathrite alive--Maverick didn't come back).
4 SFM
4 DRS
4 KOTR
4 BOB
4 Decay
4 StP
4 Thoughtseize
2 IoK
4 Liliana
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
3 Wasteland
SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Massacre
2 Engineered Plague
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Gaddock Teeg
I know that usually ROCK and Jund play around 7 cards. But what about playing Cabal Therapy? Combined with Lingering Souls it can be real pain for enemy to play with us. Even more than just Hymn or not?
Or which combination you think is the best?
Right now Iam on 2x Inquistion of Kozilek, 2x Thoughseize and 3x Cabal therapy.
_ Answered on my own - Tested - therapy is out, replaced by 3x Hymn
Can anyone guide me what to cut?
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Knight of the reliquary
4x Thoughtseize
3x Hymn to tourach
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to plowshares
3x Lingering Souls
3x Liliana of the veil
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte
23x Land
I was thinking about cutting one Knight of the reliquary and one land card.
My honest opinion: cut either goyfs, knights, or the SFM + batterskull skull. Having all 3 is kind of clashing (not to mention you're lacking space). I think you could also drop the discard to 6 total (so trim TS #4 or hymn #3).
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Blind Obedience
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thoughtseize
1 Academy Ruins
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Rounds:
R1 - Dredge
* G1 I start on Deathrite, Bog, Knight; he stalls out against Maze, Karakas, and DRS taking Pieces
* G2 I almost get there but he finds a horde of zombies so I call it seeing no shuffle effects and no EE's on the top 3
* G3 I almost Punt by using DRS in my turn and not either: Holding it open, or dropping Teeg. That said, I have Thalia, get a knight, Karakas on GB and Bog his grave; I win in rounds
Games 2-1
Matches 1-0
R2 - 12Post
* G1 Wastelands + Knight => Karakas
* G2 A funky long drawn out game. We both stall on board while I slowly claim control with a Knight, Maze, karakas, Ensnaring Bridge under RiP, Emrakul, Primetime, and we stall out.
Games 3-1-1
Matches 2-0
R3 - Reanimator
* G1 He has a slow start and I put him on BUG Control (TS, Pierce, 3 lands very durdley) About when I expect a jace I land a DRS and he attempts to go off with Elesh Norn (since I'm summoning sick.) He does, but I Lily it. He Exhumes calling my bluff with Knight. I don't bluff. Karakas => Win.
* G2 I start with Nihil Spellbomb, go into 2x DRS, he S&T's into Knight.. Karakas, I win.. (are we seeing a pattern?) He's super pissed off and I'm glowing. 3-0!
Games 5-1-1
Matches 3-0
R4 - Sneakshow, Gerry Thompson
* G1 He's good at the game :s. He S&Ts Omniscience after probing me IIRC, hardcasts Grisel->Emmy->Win
* G2 I see Chains, Thalia, Blind Obedience, and DRS, but he seeing Omniscience again; and I die a sad death with him hellbent.
Games 5-3-1
Matches 3-1
R5 - TES
* G1 I start with EE grinding on his hand and graveyard; he forgets about EE and punts.
* G2 T2 lethal tendrils
* G3 Grindy. EE on board, lethal on board, wasting him when I get the chance. He's got a weak ad nausium and sitting at 4. Manages to squeeze his hand into PiF and go off. Sad times
Games 6-5-1
Matches 3-2
R6 - Oops
* G1 T1 I die with DRS on board, Bog, Knight, Maze in hand. Wish he had been dredge/reanimator/fair
* G2 Grafdiggers,T1; I get a T2, I spend it wrong on a DRS instead of a Thalia and get Belched. I knew I punted almost the second I put him down.
Games 6-7-1
Matches 3-3
R7 - Patriot Delver
* G1 We exchange a couple kill spells then he gets wasted out while I beat for 2.
* G2 Bob gets me about a billion cards as I waste him occasionally, swapping kills and counters here and there. He hardcasts Skull after Bob has nearly killed him, but I have a DRS on board and kill him. Fun highlight; I cast an Italian Chains and call a Judge so he can understand it; he basically says "F*ck that card!" and forces; which made my day lol.
Games 8-7-1
Matches 4-3 (there's still hope!)
R8 - Burn
* G1 I get him low (4-6?)
* G2 I get him to 2 and could've won (but didn't think of it until today.) Had I used knight to waste my own lands the turn I left him back I would've hit for lethal. Sad
Games 8-9-1
Matches 4-4
Planned changes:
-Academy Ruins, +Buried Ruin (why had I never thought of that?)
-USea, +Fetch/Dual/basic Swamp. Unsure yet; needs to tap for black, and possibly white.
-Blind Obedience and ?, +2 Hymn/Gerrard's Verdict/Tidehollow Sculler. I imagine it'll be Sculler
-Card examination:
I didn't find Blind Obedience helpful when i found it nor did I find it against Storm/Oops (where it would've helped against the artifact accel) and that includes against Burn and Sneak/show; which are the main reasons I tried it out.
I brought Chains expecting miracle/delver/BUG(/D&T) heavy environment and fought 6 combo decks and Burn. It's not terrible against Storm/Sneak/etc.. but it's slow compared to just getting an anti-wincon. Portland is as Combo-y as the hype says it is! I saw many Elves, a few Painters, Storms, Belchers, and Sneaks.
I got crap pre-SCG about EE's but they were game winners many times. Hitting TNN once, keeping storm off of goblins 3-out-of-3 games and nailing hordes of zombies. Being 0 next to bob is nice. Again, I was expecting a much different meta, but these are other reasons I like EE MB. KotR is an all-star and Lingering Souls was quite fun as a beater; it feels very safe against fair decks and pitches to lily.
I think Locally I'll be trying out the MB hand disruption but my buddy got 9th with burn and has gotten a few local 4-0's and 3-1s with it, may require SBing.. It's obnoxious that it's a deck.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
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Sideboard
Legacy:
Thanks to SGT Chubbs for the sig
Wow, I thought I had to stalk you on TheSource to see what you're running. My nit-picky questions
1 - Dryad Arbor with only a miser GSZ (no KotR)?
2 - Why Lingering?
3 - Why not Confidant #4 instead of Library #3?
4 - I lack goyfs. What would you run to "replace" it?
5 - No Thalia?
You're a fantastic player. Just picking your brain.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
-Lingering is great with equipment and great against Miracles.
-His GSZ is Goyf #4, Ooze #2, or DRS #5 (either grabbing him or getting an arbor to ramp like him) or even just land #23
-3 Sylvan makes no sense unless maybe his library gets killed a lot. Just like Top (for me), it basically indirectly wins the games on it's own by turning you in a threat-heavy blue deck; so consistently seeing it is probably a big deal. Then again, he could always discard a multiple to his Lily or something. I would personally run either tops or a mix of Library/Top (but his aggro variant greatly favors library where as my control variant prefers top.)
IMO; my list (somewhat evolved from the above) would run KotR next to SFM. You don't have to support KotR with very many good lands to make him worth it; and I honestly think that (outside of Burn/Storm MUs) KotR is hands down better than goyf; however when you want to kill someone a turn or two faster; Goyf takes the cake.
It's worth pointing out that his list goes straight for the 2-drops that dominate legacy rather than a 3-drop who's lost his limelight. I still prefer KotR, but meh.
I'd say that even post-board his chances against many combo decks doesn't seem that great. Average S&T, mediocre or worse TES/ANT, mediocre or bad Dredge, OK reanimator. His results may be better than that; but that's just what it looks like comparing how I tend to fair, how Jund tends to fair (which has ~3 more discard main), and that Meddling Mage/Teeg are low impact hate against Storm. I'd wager based on his 76(?) that he's got a reasonable amount of miracles, S&T, and D&T players in his meta with a reasonable TNN representation (BUG/Patriot Delver); with low Storm/Dredge/Reanimator counts.
(For fun I'm hoping he responds with if I'm right at all.)
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
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Yes it does. If you do the math on it, there's more times you'd rather have the 61st bullet than not run it at all. Adrian Sullivan did an article on it if I recall.
1) The Dryad Arbor is there in case you get the GSZ hand with no DRS, as well as the surprise blocker or creature to hook equipment up to. I've won a good portion of games to having equipment open and fetching Arbor EOT to connect. It's also a surprise extra creature in blocking or against Liliana.
2) Lingering Souls was Doran actually for the past two months. Doran tested REALLY well in a Delver and DnT meta (because 1/1 TNN isn't that good, and neither are 1/1 flickerwisps, Thalias, and Revokers but buffing DRS, SFM, and Goyf is excellent). The problem? Miracles is on the rise so you need an attrition-based creature against Jace. Souls helps pressure Walkers as well as carry Equipment.
3) While both are good cards, they do different things. Confidant only allows you to draw one extra card per turn, and it's VERY powerful, but Sylvan can allow you to draw 2 extra cards in a single turn, or give you information about upcoming draws. Sylvan is powerful against Miracles as well, whereas Confidant, while powerful, dies to most of their removal. Overall, I like the 3/3 split but if I had an extra slot, I'd add the last confidant.
4) There is no replacing Goyf, sadly. If I were in your place, if I have 3-4 Goyf slots, I would run 2-3 Doran the Siege Tower and the last Confidant. Doran is very buff and well costed (5/5 for 3 mana), but isn't great against STP.
5) There's no Thalia in the main for obvious reasons (you play more spells than Maverick does), and none in the board since Thalia doesn't hate on Miracles enough. Meddling Mage stops STP and Teeg hangles the rest of their deck, from Humility, Terminus, Entreat, Jace, EE, etc. Mage is also an edge aaginst Sneak and Show and Punishing Jund.
As for KotR, there's a few problems with him, and it's why I didn't suggest him. I played Knight until TNN came out, and the problem is with DRS around as well, Knight cannot profitably attack (unless you're hooking up SOFI, in which case, God help your opponent) into a TNN, cannot usually buff up very much, and has no evasion. It doesn't fly, trample, or have protection. It does Wasteland, but who are you doing that to on Turn 4? Not Miracles. I think you could try him to replace Goyf, and maybe in your metagame he'll be fine. Most of the time, I've found the meta shift to push him a bit out of the forefront. I do love the card.
On contrast, I feel that if you build around Knight, it's a fine card. I think if you run the Depths package as a distinct deck, I think that strategy has merit. I just feel the value-Knight is worse than it used to be.
-Matt
Legacy:
Thanks to SGT Chubbs for the sig
KotR V Goyf stuff:
All you need, IMO, to make KotR good is:
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
Anything else is gravy. Given that it's only 2 lands different than most lists I feel like the value is easy to attain without hurting you much.
The 2x Loam I tend to run in my lists make wasting with KotR often a double-waste to seal the game up. I realize it sounds infrequent on paper; but a speedy soft-lock is nice to have to make the late-game trivial.
I do think Goyf is superior in speed races for sure and I trust your judgement with running him, but I think KotR is not only really good for a budget alternative, but not bad for non-budget depending on the meta.
Budget Goyfs
Next to that; I'd suggest Warden of the Beyond, Werebear (lol) or Jotun Grunt as alternatives. Warden synergizes well enough with DRS, is big, and vigilance isn't bad for being color-light. Grunt has always been "meh", but it's not terrible in the meta since he makes sure KotR/Goyf stay small; his anti-synergy with DRS is noticable (but having both is good security against grave decks) but his synergy with Noble Hierarch isn't bad. I also agree that Doran is a reasonable replacement since he also punches through Goyfs and BSKs while keeping TNN tame, but his mana-cost is unforgiving and being legendary means the occasional double you see of Goyf or KotR don't happen.
I know a legacy player who's running Werebear in RUG Delver in place of Goyf, and it does OK for $0.25. I'd support him with Darkblast or something to help get your grave up quickly.
My current deck is this:
-12-
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
-27-
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Life from the Loam
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thoughtseize
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
EE vs. Plow (for me)
I've still been *vastly* preferring EE over Plow. It kills counterbalance, angel/dredge/storm/souls tokens, hits for 0 on DC triggers, and I often get 2-for-1s @2CMC since people see wastelands and go Jitte. Because of that they plop it down and get double-timewalked. It works on Enchantress, Affinity, Delver/Deathrite, or occasionally kills Lily or Jace if I need it to. Plow is so dead so often that despite the possible tempo gain, legacy just doesn't care with low mana costs anymore IMO. It does make my deck weaker to Stalkers and Reanimator, but KotR works to keep those problems minimal. This 2CMC targetting tends to work well (even against people who know me) simply because if your entire objective is to only have a single 2CMC card on the field at a time you'll find your deck not working; so people walk into it regularly; compensating themselves with SFM card advantage or the fact that goyf came in free off of Shardless. Either way; I like cancelling out this card advantage while having significant outs to problem decks. I can understand why *others* don't run it; like in your list with so many 2-drops, it'd be hard to get value out of it except for when sideboarding.
The lack of SFM in the list and the KotR in the goyf slot gives EE a nice big area to play in right where most decks want to live.
I'll say that originally I had a light 4-color splash like you did with Academy Ruins. USea gets DRS still and fulfills BB reqs while Ruins gives me a different broken plan with only one KotR fetch; it also pumps EE to an easy 4 or 5 with DRS. I haven't found my deck slow enough to need such a grindy plan again lately (hence it's out) but it was a nice ace. I somewhat like Meddling Mage since that or Teeg block Terminus and allow you a fast Miracles clock while "overextending" (since they can't 2 or 3 for one you until they off him.) It's neat tech.
I honestly think TNN is vastly over-rated and if you can't race it with Souls and DRS in the main, you've got bigger problems. I'll mention though that EE is also a remedy for that.
@61 cards
I'm the same way. unless the deck has an absolute must 4-of I have to see (like a combo deck), I'd much rather cram in another 4-by of something I need than have a 4x 3x, 4x 2x, 4x 1x, drop a land, or similar; especially when card 61 is Maze next to Knight or something and I know my other choices are the right number.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
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@Budget Goyfs -- my go-to would be some combination of KotR (with DD package), Scooze, and/or Pridemage (very under-rated card)
@tescrin: 0 Liliana, 2 Loam, 3 EE? You raise interesting points on EE. However, I hope a typo is involved in your list. Liliana of the Veil is the reason I'd play Junk. EE is a great way to x-for-1 and depending on the meta is better than Deed. I'm not sure I'd drop STP entirely for it. Maybe go 4 Decay, 2 STP -- with EE's in the board (or EE main, STP in board)? EE on 1 against fair decks literally butchers them (vial, moms, mana dorks, etc). EE also pairs well against Miracles (shoots CB's and Angels for days)
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Again, half of why I play EE is also that it's a "pretend Abrupt Decay" against Miracles that happens to also block angels.
Even so, an EE build (which I haven't seen online, it's my own little thing) has to be *really* careful with the number of two drop permanents in the deck. When I hit 6-7 I noticed it becoming very awkward (especially if any of them are Tidehollow Sculler..) Lingering Souls works well with the EE plan since you rarely go on 0-CMC and Souls evasion can help close out games for TNN, other KotR decks, or just block Marit Lage and his buddies while you stall.
What you gain is a nice anti SFM plan, what you lose are Goyf/SFM plans; which are both powerful. However as a budget option it certainly works very well next to KotR; and popping your own bobs doesn't feel too bad if he's already drawn you some cards.
EDIT: I'll note that the biggest deck I'm losing to is Burn. I've been pushed out of the money the last couple times just because I'll run into a Burn deck and being KotR over Goyf really hurts that MU.
If you try a list like this; keep in mind the mindset is firmly in "control" against most decks. Often you grind them to a halt and then win off of Bob+DRS swinging for 3-4. I'll go into single digits many games before stabilizing; so often to the point that I don't really worry about it now.
EDIT 2: My list started from a standard Jund build (4 discard, 3 hymn, 4 Lily, 4 Bob, 4 DRS, 4 Beaters) and grew from there. The EEs, KotR, and extra discard give it significantly better combo MUs while the lack of BBE, Bolt, and Goyf->KotR make it weaker to Burn and sometimes things like Merfolk or other intense aggro. I haven't played against a lot of non-burn non-delver aggro since adding triple-hymn; but I imagine it helps quite a bit.
Delver may be worse on the most recent list since I've dropped a land, but DRS, Decay, 2 Basics, and Loam imply the MU should still be fine. The biggest issue I ran into last week was Tombstalker and chumps keeping Lily off of him. Souls should help that.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
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EE definitely makes Bob much nicer to you and you occasionally get walkers; but losing to a deck like that is obnoxious enough, I'm sure Goblins or Merfolk might be the same way. Any blowouts I've had with merfolk could've been achieved by Deed all the same. We'll see; I have a lot of things that can bolt me off of Bob now; so we're approaching replacing with Tombstalker or some other big dumb beater, but the list is probably too grave heavy for that.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
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I am going to a big Event soon with an unknown Meta.
Do you have any Suggestions on the Maindeck or the Sideboard ?
Greetings from Germany
This is my current List
3 Bayou
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
Spells:
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Lingering Souls
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
Other Spells:
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Karakas
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Humility
Modern:
Heartless Gitrog
Pauper:
Zombies
Delve
Canadian Thresh