What is NORUG strong against naturally? Does it perform better against creature decks or control decks? What is the best way to shore up it's matchups in both?
Hmm. NO RUG is decent against most decks, it is one of those decks that doesn't really have any bad match up.
Something like Merfolk can be hard since it puts you under a lot of pressure and you have a hard time resolving natural order through countermagic and wastelands, tempo thresh style decks can be a problem for similar reasons.
Against these strategies I typically board out the Natural order package for stuff like removal and ussually thruns. Lavamancer owns merfolk hard if you have room for em but merfolk is pretty much dead atm.
Most combo match ups are very easy. RUG has ussually 3-4 REB in the board to back up a healthy amount of MD counters and cliques. Against Combo I will often side out the progenitus for a terastadon to either stone rain them or just present them with a 1 turn clock, and board in the REBS and surgical extractions, sometimes Ancient Grudges if you are up against something like Painter.
The Stone Blade match up is close but gets better for you after boarding with REBs and Grudges and Thruns unless they have black splash for Perish in which case you are in a bad spot.
Balls to the wall hyper aggressive aggro Burn, and Zoo are often problematic match ups. Sometimes I board in 1 extra basic land so I don't die to price of progress. Another strategy I have used against Burn is to Terastadon all my non basics to avoid dying to PoP. Against Zoo a lot of times you can combo off but won't be able to afford to attack to avoid not dying to the crackback. Threads and Submerge are the MVPs against zoo. If you can try to avoid auto losing to SB'ed chokes. Also play your dazes wisely against Zoo--I have definitely lost games mindlessly dazing a turn 1 Kird ape or something and then fallen to far behind to combo off fast enough. Against Zoo keep in mind you can natural order and sac your own progenitus just to untap him.
Meh most of this is based on my playing the deck for 3-4 months before MM got banned. I am presently tinkering with an updated version of the deck for GP indianopolis with snapcasters and oozes.
*I'm thinking of playing this list or this core rather, but I'm not sure if i want to replace the Forked Bolt with a Grim Lavamancer, if the Sylvan Library, should stay, become another goyf, or another Jace. Also I'm taking out the Snapcaster Mage for a second goyf, which Reid says he's probably doing as well.
Reid went 6-2 against against both RUG Tempo and against Esper Stoneblade with Intuition, and actually lost 6-2 against Maverick. 2 losses to Maverick were due to a mull to 5 in both games 2 and 3 in their first round of testing.
He talks about using grove combo, upping his land count but doesn't delve into too much detail.
I'll be playing this weekend against a host of B aggro type decks, including two B/W stoneforge, B/R controllish, Nic Fit, ROCK MAVERICK, and possibly another Maverick. Any advice as to changes would be greatly appreciated.
*I'm thinking of playing this list or this core rather, but I'm not sure if i want to replace the Forked Bolt with a Grim Lavamancer, if the Sylvan Library, should stay, become another goyf, or another Jace. Also I'm taking out the Snapcaster Mage for a second goyf, which Reid says he's probably doing as well.
Reid went 6-2 against against both RUG Tempo and against Esper Stoneblade with Intuition, and actually lost 6-2 against Maverick. 2 losses to Maverick were due to a mull to 5 in both games 2 and 3 in their first round of testing.
He talks about using grove combo, upping his land count but doesn't delve into too much detail.
I'll be playing this weekend against a host of B aggro type decks, including two B/W stoneforge, B/R controllish, Nic Fit, ROCK MAVERICK, and possibly another Maverick. Any advice as to changes would be greatly appreciated.
I feel like 7 NO-able creatures is far too few. I'd probably cut one of the cliques for a second Arbor since it's the easiest thing to find, and I'd remove GSZ completely. Filling the slots with some mix of Ooze/goyf.
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Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Other cards to consider as targets in my opinion are: Wall of Blossoms Cantrips itself and provides you with an early game ground blocker, which is relevant in MOST matchups. Also won't die to bolt, Mongoose, or an early goyf. Kitchen Finks Great card in aggro match-ups as they usually have to spend at least one whole card to deal with half of yours. Great value with Natural Order as well. Eternal Witness in grindy control match-ups this card single-handedly allows you to buyback/cast Natural Order Natural Order.
I feel like 7 NO-able creatures is far too few. I'd probably cut one of the cliques for a second Arbor since it's the easiest thing to find, and I'd remove GSZ completely. Filling the slots with some mix of Ooze/goyf.
So you said 7 is too few, so you'd cut the tutor engine that helps you find them... How does that make sense?
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Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
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Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
I feel like 7 NO-able creatures is far too few. I'd probably cut one of the cliques for a second Arbor since it's the easiest thing to find, and I'd remove GSZ completely. Filling the slots with some mix of Ooze/goyf.
The more I think about it, the less this makes sense (not to flame). Adding a second arbor while cutting GSZ altogether makes no sense at all. You don't want it in your opening hand, but you love to GSZ it on turn 1 to ramp your mana.
All that being said, I really do understand you're argument. I think you go about answering it the wrong way however. First thing to note, is that the list I posted is Reid Duke's list. Secondly, in the video where he plays this list, he mentions cutting the Snapcaster and that he probably wants more goyf. Not as more NO targets but simply because it's a good creature.
I played a list at a local FNM, 3 rounds and cut to top 4. I split in the finals with a friend. I played against a Zombies deck that incorporated Worship which actually beat me one game when he was at 1 life due to Prog. Unfortunately prog doesn't have protection from worship.
Anyhow round 1 was against a budget U/R delver list. I crushed it, nothing to note about either game. His only threat was Delver, to which I have lightning bolts.
Round 2 was against Zombies. I lost game 2 due to not countering worship. I pulled the old, "I don't need to FoW, I'll just kill all his creatures". 3 Lingering Souls later and a butt load of flying later, such was not the case. Game 3 I just won with the aggro beats. He doombladed a goyf. I BS in response to find Bolt double land. He's at 6, and I have a Grim Lavamancer on board. He takes 5 EOT. I untap and win.
Round 3 was against my friend playing a blade variant. This is my first time really playing NO RUG. I played a homebrew NO RUG/Punishing Fires/Counter Top deck before. It was kinda random but I had some success. Anyhow, I had basically no idea how to play THIS (the real) NO RUG and so I lost due to misplaying.
I come 4th and play against the same Stoneblade deck.
I lose game 1, but game 2 Pyroblast keeps him honest. Eventually we go into top deck mode, and I play more Jaces than he does. I Jace ult and win.
Game 3 our friend playing dredge won his semi finals, so we are going to friendly 3 way split. But I make him play anyhow for fun. It was a fun game, in which I get very dominant board position by pitching prog to a FoW, which causes my opponent to Wrath (we are also both playing very loose as we already know we are all going to split). It was a really strong Wrath for him as it cleared my Dryad Arbor and Noble Hierarch, but I believe I either top-deck one of his Tarmogoyf or a Scavenging Ooze and just win (kinda :P).
*Sorry for tags in some places and in other places none, as well as for a not too in-depth report (It's not overly competitive, therefore no serious notes, but we all usually have a lot of fun).
Clique is awesome as a 4-of. I know a lot of people like 3, but Vendillion Clique usually does so much work, including trading with Delvers, Mongeese, and other creatures, as well as get's rid of opposing batterskulls or your own prog. I understand people who cut 3, but for now I am sticking with 4.
Finally, Ancient Grudge did some HEAVY lifting. It was amazing. I sided out goyfs against my friends stoneblade deck as he was siding in Threads of Disloyalty for his Spell Snare, and grudge was just plain amazing. I never had to bolt a Stoneforge Mystic as between grudge and Clique I would always basically Time walk, which inevitably led to board advantage every post sideboard game.
This deck might be able to run a semi-transformational sideboard if people wish to go the Punishing Fires route. Sideing out FoW and the NO package against control for some Counterbalances and REBS. Seems like if you can get the numbers to work, this could be very dirty. It would also mean playing the Sylvan main, probably a second one side and a top, and 3 Counterbalance, with 4 REBs side.
i have question because i really dislike net-decking. how viable could a NO BUG build be? i feel like sinkhole and bob would really add to the tempo and you have ghastly demise or go for the throat/ smother and diabolic edict couple with some snapcaster mages and you would be pretty set. i think snapcaster mage makes a NO BUG idea a lot more viable? i appreciate any input
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my favorite win ever was using icequake in a POX deck and actually killing someone with a snow-covered-plains
i have question because i really dislike net-decking. how viable could a NO BUG build be? i feel like sinkhole and bob would really add to the tempo and you have ghastly demise or go for the throat/ smother and diabolic edict couple with some snapcaster mages and you would be pretty set. i think snapcaster mage makes a NO BUG idea a lot more viable? i appreciate any input
i have question because i really dislike net-decking. how viable could a NO BUG build be? i feel like sinkhole and bob would really add to the tempo and you have ghastly demise or go for the throat/ smother and diabolic edict couple with some snapcaster mages and you would be pretty set. i think snapcaster mage makes a NO BUG idea a lot more viable? i appreciate any input
I also really want to run NO BUG, however it isn't viable.
Black gives you access to Thoughtseize, Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek. With Thoughtseize being the best, it's usually not going to be great against all the decks running red. And the other options aren't too great either, considering they are narrow and don't necessarily advance our hand/plan. Sinkhole just does nothing for us. And finally the removal is all sub-par. Bolt and STP are > Ghastly demise and far greater than anything at 2cmc (see Spell Snare/Mother of Runes).
It sounds to me like you are just advocating Team America (BUG TEMPO) with a Progenitus finish.
Black gives you access to Thoughtseize, Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek. With Thoughtseize being the best, it's usually not going to be great against all the decks running red. And the other options aren't too great either, considering they are narrow and don't necessarily advance our hand/plan. Sinkhole just does nothing for us. And finally the removal is all sub-par. Bolt and STP are > Ghastly demise and far greater than anything at 2cmc (see Spell Snare/Mother of Runes).
It sounds to me like you are just advocating Team America (BUG TEMPO) with a Progenitus finish.
yeah, that is kinda what I'm thinking Team America with NO and progenitus. the only thing that i don't like about the idea is the mana curve would make you want to reconsider bob. 4x NO, 4x force of will, 1x progenitus, and probably jace depending on space. i feel the list would be pretty tight to attempt fitting SDtops in. if i wasn't deployed i would at least try it out on cockatrice
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my favorite win ever was using icequake in a POX deck and actually killing someone with a snow-covered-plains
*I'm thinking of playing this list or this core rather, but I'm not sure if i want to replace the Forked Bolt with a Grim Lavamancer, if the Sylvan Library, should stay, become another goyf, or another Jace. Also I'm taking out the Snapcaster Mage for a second goyf, which Reid says he's probably doing as well.
Reid went 6-2 against against both RUG Tempo and against Esper Stoneblade with Intuition, and actually lost 6-2 against Maverick. 2 losses to Maverick were due to a mull to 5 in both games 2 and 3 in their first round of testing.
I'll be playing this weekend against a host of B aggro type decks, including two B/W stoneforge, B/R controllish, Nic Fit, ROCK MAVERICK, and possibly another Maverick. Any advice as to changes would be greatly appreciated.
***** We need to keep this forum alive! This is a great deck that just needs some fine tuning. I was thinking about keeping the above list, just adding two forked bolts by losing snapcaster and slyvan. I love the library, however; in a meta with tons of powful 1/1, 3/1, and 2/1's forked bolt is great! I feel the grove combo isn't the way to go right now. Mavrick's Thalia is at least one good reason! Most of my losses are due to creature decks that can get ahead too quickly, while i'm one or two life away from kiling them with progenitus!
I know this thread is for NO RUG, however I have a feeling that at this time, the best direction to take this take is to NO BANT.
I had been debating for a while what I wanted to do, and NO RUG seemed the better plan just because it has Lightning Bolt as removal which can obviously pressure life total, as well as Red Elemental Blast in the sideboard.
That being said, white offers the best removal in the format, and with the rise of both RUG Delver, and Sneak and Show, Blue Elemental Blast becomes a little bit better giving us access to a decent blast as well.
Recently, there was a Maverick list that ran 2 Natural Order and our 10 mana friend to I believe a tournament victory over in Europe.
I think going perhaps BANT with a Maverick-esque shell and a non-4 number of Natural Orders could be the correct way of taking this deck. I know that perhaps people will say this doesn't belong here, however I believe in it's current iteration, NO RUG simply does not have the tools to compete with the top decks.
I have somewhat of a list in mind, but I don't want to post anything if people think this would not belong here.
Hello everyone, I play Combo Elves in Legacy and lately I have been interested a lot in NO RUG, I was wondering if there is any good lists out there, I don't really like Reid Duke's list. Thanks
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Lightning Bolt
(15 instants)
2x Forked Bolt
2x Ponder
4x Natural Order
3x Green Sun's Zenith
(11 sorceries)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
(3 planeswalkers)
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
2x Dryad Arbor
4x Wasteland
1x Island
1x Forest
(22 lands)
It has been performing well in testing, but needs some tuning. Lots of people swear by Clique. To squeeze it in, I would cut a Goyf, GSZ and Jace to fit 3 in. Lately I have been wanting even more Forked Bolt, but that could be because of all the Elves in my Meta.
This is my favorite deck! I know this forum is pretty dead since missetp's banning. How could we make this deck a legitimate threat again? A third turn 10/10 is still pretty sick... 1oth isn't bad, but it isn't top 8!
Anyone tried running Shardless Agent in this deck? Great synergy with Brainstorm (stack 2x lands on top or any spell you want to cast for free), pitches to Force and sacs to Natural Order. With Noble Hierarch, swinging for 3+ is solid! And with the burn from Lavamancer/bolts, the field should be clear anyway. I wouldn't run it as a 4-of, but could make a really solid 2 or 3-of.
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Hmm. NO RUG is decent against most decks, it is one of those decks that doesn't really have any bad match up.
Something like Merfolk can be hard since it puts you under a lot of pressure and you have a hard time resolving natural order through countermagic and wastelands, tempo thresh style decks can be a problem for similar reasons.
Against these strategies I typically board out the Natural order package for stuff like removal and ussually thruns. Lavamancer owns merfolk hard if you have room for em but merfolk is pretty much dead atm.
Most combo match ups are very easy. RUG has ussually 3-4 REB in the board to back up a healthy amount of MD counters and cliques. Against Combo I will often side out the progenitus for a terastadon to either stone rain them or just present them with a 1 turn clock, and board in the REBS and surgical extractions, sometimes Ancient Grudges if you are up against something like Painter.
The Stone Blade match up is close but gets better for you after boarding with REBs and Grudges and Thruns unless they have black splash for Perish in which case you are in a bad spot.
Balls to the wall hyper aggressive aggro Burn, and Zoo are often problematic match ups. Sometimes I board in 1 extra basic land so I don't die to price of progress. Another strategy I have used against Burn is to Terastadon all my non basics to avoid dying to PoP. Against Zoo a lot of times you can combo off but won't be able to afford to attack to avoid not dying to the crackback. Threads and Submerge are the MVPs against zoo. If you can try to avoid auto losing to SB'ed chokes. Also play your dazes wisely against Zoo--I have definitely lost games mindlessly dazing a turn 1 Kird ape or something and then fallen to far behind to combo off fast enough. Against Zoo keep in mind you can natural order and sac your own progenitus just to untap him.
Meh most of this is based on my playing the deck for 3-4 months before MM got banned. I am presently tinkering with an updated version of the deck for GP indianopolis with snapcasters and oozes.
Here's the link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=f4NpdnQ-PEo
And here's the list:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library
Instants and Sorceries (25)
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
Creature (12)
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
What do you guys think about the list?
I second this. Anyone able to find his updated list?
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tarmogoyf
Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library
Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus
4 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sorceries
1 Forked Bolt
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
2 Ponder
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sylvan Library
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dryad Arbor
*I'm thinking of playing this list or this core rather, but I'm not sure if i want to replace the Forked Bolt with a Grim Lavamancer, if the Sylvan Library, should stay, become another goyf, or another Jace. Also I'm taking out the Snapcaster Mage for a second goyf, which Reid says he's probably doing as well.
Reid went 6-2 against against both RUG Tempo and against Esper Stoneblade with Intuition, and actually lost 6-2 against Maverick. 2 losses to Maverick were due to a mull to 5 in both games 2 and 3 in their first round of testing.
He talks about using grove combo, upping his land count but doesn't delve into too much detail.
If he did that, I would presume he would;
add:
2x Punishing Fires, 3x grove of the burnwillows
removing:
Snapcaster Mage, green sun's zenith, Forked Bolt, Scalding tarn and Taiga.
I'll be playing this weekend against a host of B aggro type decks, including two B/W stoneforge, B/R controllish, Nic Fit, ROCK MAVERICK, and possibly another Maverick. Any advice as to changes would be greatly appreciated.
I feel like 7 NO-able creatures is far too few. I'd probably cut one of the cliques for a second Arbor since it's the easiest thing to find, and I'd remove GSZ completely. Filling the slots with some mix of Ooze/goyf.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
I understand if you wish to argue that you need a minimum number of green creatures to sacrifice to Natural Order, however I think you need to count the Green sun's zenith as creatures 8-10 in this case. Green Sun's Zenith allows Tarmogoyf and Scavenging Ooze to get around Spell Snare, it can get you an additional Noble Hierarch exalted trigger which is very relevant, and can allow you to run 1 of's like Scavenging Ooze and Kitchen Finks.
Other cards to consider as targets in my opinion are:
Wall of Blossoms Cantrips itself and provides you with an early game ground blocker, which is relevant in MOST matchups. Also won't die to bolt, Mongoose, or an early goyf.
Kitchen Finks Great card in aggro match-ups as they usually have to spend at least one whole card to deal with half of yours. Great value with Natural Order as well.
Eternal Witness in grindy control match-ups this card single-handedly allows you to buyback/cast Natural Order
Natural Order.
So you said 7 is too few, so you'd cut the tutor engine that helps you find them... How does that make sense?
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
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Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
The more I think about it, the less this makes sense (not to flame). Adding a second arbor while cutting GSZ altogether makes no sense at all. You don't want it in your opening hand, but you love to GSZ it on turn 1 to ramp your mana.
All that being said, I really do understand you're argument. I think you go about answering it the wrong way however. First thing to note, is that the list I posted is Reid Duke's list. Secondly, in the video where he plays this list, he mentions cutting the Snapcaster and that he probably wants more goyf. Not as more NO targets but simply because it's a good creature.
I played a list at a local FNM, 3 rounds and cut to top 4. I split in the finals with a friend. I played against a Zombies deck that incorporated Worship which actually beat me one game when he was at 1 life due to Prog. Unfortunately prog doesn't have protection from worship.
Anyhow round 1 was against a budget U/R delver list. I crushed it, nothing to note about either game. His only threat was Delver, to which I have lightning bolts.
Round 2 was against Zombies. I lost game 2 due to not countering worship. I pulled the old, "I don't need to FoW, I'll just kill all his creatures". 3 Lingering Souls later and a butt load of flying later, such was not the case. Game 3 I just won with the aggro beats. He doombladed a goyf. I BS in response to find Bolt double land. He's at 6, and I have a Grim Lavamancer on board. He takes 5 EOT. I untap and win.
Round 3 was against my friend playing a blade variant. This is my first time really playing NO RUG. I played a homebrew NO RUG/Punishing Fires/Counter Top deck before. It was kinda random but I had some success. Anyhow, I had basically no idea how to play THIS (the real) NO RUG and so I lost due to misplaying.
I come 4th and play against the same Stoneblade deck.
I lose game 1, but game 2 Pyroblast keeps him honest. Eventually we go into top deck mode, and I play more Jaces than he does. I Jace ult and win.
Game 3 our friend playing dredge won his semi finals, so we are going to friendly 3 way split. But I make him play anyhow for fun. It was a fun game, in which I get very dominant board position by pitching prog to a FoW, which causes my opponent to Wrath (we are also both playing very loose as we already know we are all going to split). It was a really strong Wrath for him as it cleared my Dryad Arbor and Noble Hierarch, but I believe I either top-deck one of his Tarmogoyf or a Scavenging Ooze and just win (kinda :P).
The list I played is very similar to Reid's. I subbed a TarmoGoyf for his Snapcaster Mage and a Grim Lavamancer for his Sylvan Library due to playing mostly semi-budget aggro decks.
*Sorry for tags in some places and in other places none, as well as for a not too in-depth report (It's not overly competitive, therefore no serious notes, but we all usually have a lot of fun).
**Thoughts
I REALLY like Grim Lavamancer in here. I think he's much better than Snapcaster. I'm also not sure you want 2x Jace, the mind sculptor and a Sylvan Library.
Clique is awesome as a 4-of. I know a lot of people like 3, but Vendillion Clique usually does so much work, including trading with Delvers, Mongeese, and other creatures, as well as get's rid of opposing batterskulls or your own prog. I understand people who cut 3, but for now I am sticking with 4.
Finally, Ancient Grudge did some HEAVY lifting. It was amazing. I sided out goyfs against my friends stoneblade deck as he was siding in Threads of Disloyalty for his Spell Snare, and grudge was just plain amazing. I never had to bolt a Stoneforge Mystic as between grudge and Clique I would always basically Time walk, which inevitably led to board advantage every post sideboard game.
This deck might be able to run a semi-transformational sideboard if people wish to go the Punishing Fires route. Sideing out FoW and the NO package against control for some Counterbalances and REBS. Seems like if you can get the numbers to work, this could be very dirty. It would also mean playing the Sylvan main, probably a second one side and a top, and 3 Counterbalance, with 4 REBs side.
Minimum 10, including Arbor.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Again, that's not my list. It is Reid Duke's list.
@Dyne: Are you including GSZ as green creature's?
In my list I had 11 if you count the GSZs and 9 if you don't.
That is not including GSZ.
And the list above has 7, as I do not include Proggy as a Green creature.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
NO, it wouldn't be viable (pun totally intended)
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I also really want to run NO BUG, however it isn't viable.
From RUG lists you lose
Lightning Bolt
Grim Lavamancer
Fire//Ice
And most importantly from the SB
Red Elemental Blast
And from BANT you would lose
Swords to Plowshares
Knight of the Reliquary (If you choose to use him)
Qasali Pridemage
Among a whole SLEW of sideboard options.
Black gives you access to
Thoughtseize, Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek. With Thoughtseize being the best, it's usually not going to be great against all the decks running red. And the other options aren't too great either, considering they are narrow and don't necessarily advance our hand/plan. Sinkhole just does nothing for us. And finally the removal is all sub-par. Bolt and STP are > Ghastly demise and far greater than anything at 2cmc (see Spell Snare/Mother of Runes).
It sounds to me like you are just advocating Team America (BUG TEMPO) with a Progenitus finish.
yeah, that is kinda what I'm thinking Team America with NO and progenitus. the only thing that i don't like about the idea is the mana curve would make you want to reconsider bob. 4x NO, 4x force of will, 1x progenitus, and probably jace depending on space. i feel the list would be pretty tight to attempt fitting SDtops in. if i wasn't deployed i would at least try it out on cockatrice
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tarmogoyf
Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library
Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus
4 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sorceries
1 Forked Bolt
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
2 Ponder
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sylvan Library
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dryad Arbor
*I'm thinking of playing this list or this core rather, but I'm not sure if i want to replace the Forked Bolt with a Grim Lavamancer, if the Sylvan Library, should stay, become another goyf, or another Jace. Also I'm taking out the Snapcaster Mage for a second goyf, which Reid says he's probably doing as well.
Reid went 6-2 against against both RUG Tempo and against Esper Stoneblade with Intuition, and actually lost 6-2 against Maverick. 2 losses to Maverick were due to a mull to 5 in both games 2 and 3 in their first round of testing.
I'll be playing this weekend against a host of B aggro type decks, including two B/W stoneforge, B/R controllish, Nic Fit, ROCK MAVERICK, and possibly another Maverick. Any advice as to changes would be greatly appreciated.
***** We need to keep this forum alive! This is a great deck that just needs some fine tuning. I was thinking about keeping the above list, just adding two forked bolts by losing snapcaster and slyvan. I love the library, however; in a meta with tons of powful 1/1, 3/1, and 2/1's forked bolt is great! I feel the grove combo isn't the way to go right now. Mavrick's Thalia is at least one good reason! Most of my losses are due to creature decks that can get ahead too quickly, while i'm one or two life away from kiling them with progenitus!
I had been debating for a while what I wanted to do, and NO RUG seemed the better plan just because it has Lightning Bolt as removal which can obviously pressure life total, as well as Red Elemental Blast in the sideboard.
That being said, white offers the best removal in the format, and with the rise of both RUG Delver, and Sneak and Show, Blue Elemental Blast becomes a little bit better giving us access to a decent blast as well.
Recently, there was a Maverick list that ran 2 Natural Order and our 10 mana friend to I believe a tournament victory over in Europe.
I think going perhaps BANT with a Maverick-esque shell and a non-4 number of Natural Orders could be the correct way of taking this deck. I know that perhaps people will say this doesn't belong here, however I believe in it's current iteration, NO RUG simply does not have the tools to compete with the top decks.
I have somewhat of a list in mind, but I don't want to post anything if people think this would not belong here.
GWU Bant Control GWU
Legacy:
UWR MiracleBlade UWR
FNM Brews:
GW Wild Beastmaster GW
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Tarmogoyf
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Progenitus
(9 creatures)
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Lightning Bolt
(15 instants)
2x Forked Bolt
2x Ponder
4x Natural Order
3x Green Sun's Zenith
(11 sorceries)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
(3 planeswalkers)
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
2x Dryad Arbor
4x Wasteland
1x Island
1x Forest
(22 lands)
It has been performing well in testing, but needs some tuning. Lots of people swear by Clique. To squeeze it in, I would cut a Goyf, GSZ and Jace to fit 3 in. Lately I have been wanting even more Forked Bolt, but that could be because of all the Elves in my Meta.
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