Hmm... I am not sure how well it will work meshing NO with combo. I personally like the idea of making combo elves not a pure combo deck. Having other ways to win via beatdown make the deck more resilient and less fragile imo with so much spot removal and mental misstep running around.
I'd like to know how the hybrid works out for you, but the idea of having Prog as a one of without NO intrigues me as a Zenith target.
A single Joraga Warcaller or Ezuri can turn combo into beatdown.
I really like this backup plan.
I am currently running both. Do you think that is worth it? They both are effective and both seem to have advantages/disadvantages. What is the right number? Both or just one?
Joraga:
Pros
-Great mana dump that makes you win next turn if not answered.
-A one mana elf if you are trying to get your combo going.
Cons
-Can't be effectively tutored with Zenith
Ezuri:
Pro
-Once again wins the next turn if not answered
I'll post the decklist and details when I get home from work but I went 2-2 at legacy tournament tonight. Lost to no rug and modern pryo ascension(don't even ask I'm still pissed). Beat dredge(won game 1 :D) and the lifegain version of cephalid breakfast.
Wish is nice, but you don't make really good use of it. If you play Wish, in a combo deck, you normally want to get a combo part or an anti-hate card. You don't do any of those two. From those cards in you board you would get Cradle or Emrakul most of the time I think.
So to make Wish more effective you would want to move Nettle Sentinels and Heritage Druids to your board.
But know what? Even that would make Wish really good in this deck.
Play Summoner's Pact instead of Wish. You can search your combo parts and it doesn't cost you mana (until your next upkeep) so you can assemble your combo faster. And if you are already in the middle of your combo it is also better than Wish, because it costs no mana.
Pact is also good if you run a bit toolbox like siedboard, because with all the draw, Zenith and Pact you can find singleton hate cards very easy.
And it is more likely that you have the mana to cast those cards in the same turn you played Pact than that you have the mana left over after a Wish.
With Wish you could play some hate cards game one, but that's it's best use, otherwise it is just a 2-mana tax to your combo pieces/wincons.
So I would say get rid of Wishes and play Summoner's Pact instead. Play Emrakul, second Regal Force and Cradle main.
I would also cut Warcaller and Ezuri, Emrakul as a single win con is normally enough and also almost impossible to handle and wins immediatley, while with Warcaller or Ezuri you have to wait a turn. I would also up Elvish Visionary to a 4-of, they are just so incredible, they draw through your deck, to find combo pieces with Wirewood Symbiote and your combo is less likely to fizzle cause of the extra draw they provide.
Also cut Masticore and Faerie Macabre from your board, Mortar Pod is easier to cast than Masticore and Scavenging Ooze is far superior to the fae. Also Beast Within is a nice sideboard card.
Ok I gotta say at first I completely disagreed with you and wrote off your opinion on wish but after testing more and more and trying out pact instead of wish I have to say pact > wish. 90% of the time wish gets regal or emrakul. I really don't even go for cradle too often. Pact tutors for regal just as well and if your comboing you will find Emrakul. Essentially pact is a more flexible tutor that has interest on it rather than paying now.
So I've been messing around with more tweaks and this is my up to date list.
I still have Ezuri in there because he is a great pump when the combo plan doesn't work. I think having a single ezuri/joraga is worth it given all of the tutors and the plan flexibility they provide. I am also only running a single Regal Force. I'm not sure how many games I will actually need two. I dropped him to one because I want to make sure I have enough low cost elves to keep glimpse going when the combo is still developing.
My biggest question now is SB strats. One thing I did like about wish was that I could bring in SB hate and then create a tutor list in games 2 and 3 in the SB. Without this now I need to make sure not to overboard or it takes too much away from the deck.
For blue match-ups I really like choke, leyline of lifeforce, and summoning trap. But that's way too much to bring in without hurting my deck from doing what it does. What of these are worth it for the blue matchups?
Also what's the plan against faster combo decks? Mindbreaks Traps? What about dredge? Do we try to race or do we put in basic GY hate?
Also I'm still not sold on the dryad arbor thing. I get that you can accelerate with him on turn one with GSZ but there are usually other turn one plays that are just as good. Is having this one little trick really worth the topdeck land that cant tap for mana when you play it or even worse the opening one land hand where you just have arbor? I do run a single cradle but its benefits outweigh its costs imo. Am I the only one that thinks arbor is more "cute" than "good"?
Here is what I have so far. What do you all think of it? I am not sure about the sideboard, but I am pretty sure that there is a lot of aggro and control in my meta and not much combo.
Here is what I have so far. What do you all think of it? I am not sure about the sideboard, but I am pretty sure that there is a lot of aggro and control in my meta and not much combo.
One Gaea's Cradle with two copies of Crop Rotation will greatly improve your manabase if you can't afford the full set of Cradles.
What is the correct number of tutor/draw cards? I am still working on amassing all four Glimpse of Nature, which is obviously necessary, but what additional number of Pact or GSZ is proper? Pros? Cons?
What is the correct number of tutor/draw cards? I am still working on amassing all four Glimpse of Nature, which is obviously necessary, but what additional number of Pact or GSZ is proper? Pros? Cons?
Noxious Revival
I think it could be a good card for comboelves(instead of MM or with) - you could draw up necessary card (elf, tutor, glimpse) on the draw step\under glimpse effect\under elvish visionary effect without spending mana.. will try to test
And the Crop Rotation - i agree it is good idea in this deck for Gaea`sC
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My altered works gallery and sellings
Noxious Revival
I think it could be a good card for comboelves(instead of MM or with) - you could draw up necessary card (elf, tutor, glimpse) on the draw step\under glimpse effect\under elvish visionary effect without spending mana.. will try to test
And the Crop Rotation - i agree it is good idea in this deck for Gaea`sC
Crop Rotation is indeed awesome. Tapped a lone cradle last night to cast Emrakul...feels good man. I'm running two with one Cradle; I think the correct numbers may be one and one, but more testing is required.
Noxious Revival seems borderline due to its situational nature. I'll be interested to hear the results of your testing.
Speaking of free cards...is anyone testing Mental Misstep? I've been using it a little bit to good result.
The problem with all of these aforementioned spells is that they're not creatures and risk killing your combo.
On the subject of graveyard hate I highly suggest scavenging ooze. While I am playing no elves these days it's better then rav trap and crypt by amlong shot. Also beats goyfs. I personally run a singleton ooze maindeck instead of gy hate in the side board freeing up a fair amount of space over there but again I play with zenith's/NO's(against dredge I'll NO into an ooze over prog, probably against reanimator too). Just some food for thought
On the subject of graveyard hate I highly suggest scavenging ooze. While I am playing no elves these days it's better then rav trap and crypt by amlong shot. Also beats goyfs. I personally run a singleton ooze maindeck instead of gy hate in the side board freeing up a fair amount of space over there but again I play with zenith's/NO's(against dredge I'll NO into an ooze over prog, probably against reanimator too). Just some food for thought
ooze is a must have card in SB but I am not sure that it should be in the MB.
It tutors by pacts, gsz, CoCalling, FShaman(i do not think that she is so slow and added 1 in MB - it is additional tutor + elf + 2cmc with 2/2).
Ooze is great vs Dredge\goyfs\loams\reanimators\reliquaries\combos
By the way, there is the list which I have tested last 5 days:
Main combo cards, tutors, draw creatues are here as must be, I believe you know that=)
FShaman can helps you with FaerieMacabre\Ooze\Joraga when you really need it, or even with Emrakul when you are ready to cast him but he is still is not in your hand. And do not forget - it is 2cmc elf who uses under Glimse's effect - allows us to draw card and leaves with 1 mana from Heritage`s abbility - it could be critical very often.
I find that 2 Querions and 2 Symbiotes are quite enough for my build.
I do not use elves with cmc 3 because they are slow down tempo (I tested various buids with 1 Ezuri, 2 EArchdruids, 2 Elvish Spirit Guides). Instead of them Priests and singltone Joraga are doing their job enough good.
Joraga is the alter win tech as the aggro style when the main win cons are not completed. Usually we can get 3-7 or even more little dudes on the battlefield on turn2 so turn3 could be the last one for opp .. or could be not=)
Storm cards are great, and plays more often in couple with Emrakul in the same turn. And usually they are not expected in this deck). Just one thing - against Eldrazi decks Brain Freeze is not good - but it all depends from your meta and could be exchanged with Banefire\Grapeshot
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85-90% of the games it is possible to play Emrakul\storm on T3.
Mostly hard match ups for me are vs burn(fire!), combo(who will be 1st.. usually they are faster=)), perish\stp\pte`s comprising decks.
So i still moderate SB (especially in referance with expectations from post ban metagame).. now I use below SB
But exactly SB - is my weak side when I play this deck - usually I can find answers on the threats in my SB, BUT! it is hardly for me to choose correct cards in MB which should be borded off.. =\
P.S. Yesterday I tested Noxious Revival singletone - usually it was great = it gets you possibility to use fetches if you need more lands(some times it is really hot question), it is shock-version of Glimpse\any manadork if they have already been putted in your grave, good answer vs reanimators...but i played only a few games with it and with not real TIER decks, so it is still under testing..
P.P.S. Crop Rotation by singletone unfortunately did not prove its profit - when I got Crop in the hand , usually I have already got Cradle under Glimpse effect...
This deck looks pretty good and fun to play but I was wondering whats the plan against perish and burn. Burn looks like it could keep you from ever developing enough resources to go off and perish well ... yeah looks like perish=GG. Just wondering because if there is an answer I would deffinitly like to run this deck.
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Targeted removal, as in burn, has a hard time keeping up with the swarm of creatures we play. If the burn player knows our deck, however, they can target the most critical of creatures and send all of the other burn straight to our face, not allowing us to combo.
Mass removal can be very tough. There are cards to deal with it if it is huge in your meta (Caller of the Claw).
For both of these situations it is important to play smart. Try not to overextend against mass removal. If you have a combo piece on the board and the same one in hand, resist the urge to toss another redundant elf on the field so you can recover if need be. Burn can be difficult, but hopefully you have the draw to race them; they can't interact with your Glimpse of Nature and if you manage to get out a critical mass of creatures, the game is yours, combo or not.
Oh wow I must have mis-read caller of the claw. Its not exactly plan a but in a pinch it does work as long as they did get really lucky and pull mult. perish. I just keep thinking how bad perish would be for this deck G2&3 as I read through a few of the decklists.
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Big Thanks to DNC and all the guys at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig and avvie.
absolutely agree with funkytomtom - we should learn to play smart against mass removal and burn.
Caller of the Claw+Pact\Chord\Fauna Shaman = great answers on wrath\perish\plague - if you are not sure that you can play combo on current turn, just save mana potential for saving
Thorn of Amethyst = against burn
By the way - regarding Noxious Revival tests I believe it will be good in deck:
Very often It allows you to draw up necessary peaces of combo or "fuel" from your grave (even Glimpse just played in this turn) when you are playing under Glimpse affect and draw a card for every creature's cast.. some times it is Pact for grave with price in 2 life's. And some times it is temporary protection when Dredge\Reanimator is trying to play Iona (in resp)
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-------------- Playing Legacy:
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My altered works gallery and sellings
absolutely agree with funkytomtom - we should learn to play smart against mass removal and burn.
Caller of the Claw+Pact\Chord\Fauna Shaman = great answers on wrath\perish\plague - if you are not sure that you can play combo on current turn, just save mana potential for saving
Thorn of Amethyst = against burn
By the way - regarding Noxious Revival tests I believe it will be good in deck:
Very often It allows you to draw up necessary peaces of combo or "fuel" from your grave (even Glimpse just played in this turn) when you are playing under Glimpse affect and draw a card for every creature's cast.. some times it is Pact for grave with price in 2 life's. And some times it is temporary protection when Dredge\Reanimator is trying to play Iona (in resp)
I agree I think noxious revival would be good both as gy hate and to help prevent fizzle. Was wondering does anyone think Eldrazi Monument would be good in SB for mass removal or is it too expensive cc wise and take away from the deck's potency? Also how about witchbane orb to stop combo other than hive mind or is it also too slow. In some decks I think it would be but combo elves runs alot of mana ramp so I think it might work but I'd like someone with experience with the deck perspective.
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I'd like to know how the hybrid works out for you, but the idea of having Prog as a one of without NO intrigues me as a Zenith target.
Combo + NO might work - but it lacks the finesse / internal consistency of a well thought out deck. Beatdown + NO is a better match.
I really like this backup plan.
I am currently running both. Do you think that is worth it? They both are effective and both seem to have advantages/disadvantages. What is the right number? Both or just one?
Joraga:
Pros
-Great mana dump that makes you win next turn if not answered.
-A one mana elf if you are trying to get your combo going.
Cons
-Can't be effectively tutored with Zenith
Ezuri:
Pro
-Once again wins the next turn if not answered
Con
-Can be tutored with Zenith
Ezuri is fine as a singleton - as you can GSZ/Summoning Pact him just fine.
Joraga you might want to play multiples of as you can't GSZ for him - but pact works just fine.
You need 7 mana to get +3 with Joraga, while with Ezuri it takes 8 (9 with GSZ) - but also gives them trample.
Ok I gotta say at first I completely disagreed with you and wrote off your opinion on wish but after testing more and more and trying out pact instead of wish I have to say pact > wish. 90% of the time wish gets regal or emrakul. I really don't even go for cradle too often. Pact tutors for regal just as well and if your comboing you will find Emrakul. Essentially pact is a more flexible tutor that has interest on it rather than paying now.
So I've been messing around with more tweaks and this is my up to date list.
1 Cradle
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
1 Priest of Titania
1 Ezuri
1 Emrakul
1 Regal Force
3 Birchlore
4 GSZ
3 Pact
I still have Ezuri in there because he is a great pump when the combo plan doesn't work. I think having a single ezuri/joraga is worth it given all of the tutors and the plan flexibility they provide. I am also only running a single Regal Force. I'm not sure how many games I will actually need two. I dropped him to one because I want to make sure I have enough low cost elves to keep glimpse going when the combo is still developing.
My biggest question now is SB strats. One thing I did like about wish was that I could bring in SB hate and then create a tutor list in games 2 and 3 in the SB. Without this now I need to make sure not to overboard or it takes too much away from the deck.
For blue match-ups I really like choke, leyline of lifeforce, and summoning trap. But that's way too much to bring in without hurting my deck from doing what it does. What of these are worth it for the blue matchups?
Also what's the plan against faster combo decks? Mindbreaks Traps? What about dredge? Do we try to race or do we put in basic GY hate?
Also I'm still not sold on the dryad arbor thing. I get that you can accelerate with him on turn one with GSZ but there are usually other turn one plays that are just as good. Is having this one little trick really worth the topdeck land that cant tap for mana when you play it or even worse the opening one land hand where you just have arbor? I do run a single cradle but its benefits outweigh its costs imo. Am I the only one that thinks arbor is more "cute" than "good"?
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symboite
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Regal Force
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Concordant Crossroads
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Summoner's Pact
1 Chord of Calling
4 Glimpse of Nature
Land
11 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Leyline of Lifeforce
3 Choke
4 Mental Misstep
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Leyline of the Void
Currently Playing
Standard: Esper Control | UWR Flash --- Modern: Melira Pod | Splinter Twin
One Gaea's Cradle with two copies of Crop Rotation will greatly improve your manabase if you can't afford the full set of Cradles.
4 GSZ best. 3 Summoning Pact should suffice.
I think it could be a good card for comboelves(instead of MM or with) - you could draw up necessary card (elf, tutor, glimpse) on the draw step\under glimpse effect\under elvish visionary effect without spending mana.. will try to test
And the Crop Rotation - i agree it is good idea in this deck for Gaea`sC
Playing Legacy:
Jund : Belcher (all variations) : Dredge (all variations)
==============
My altered works gallery and sellings
Crop Rotation is indeed awesome. Tapped a lone cradle last night to cast Emrakul...feels good man. I'm running two with one Cradle; I think the correct numbers may be one and one, but more testing is required.
Noxious Revival seems borderline due to its situational nature. I'll be interested to hear the results of your testing.
Speaking of free cards...is anyone testing Mental Misstep? I've been using it a little bit to good result.
The problem with all of these aforementioned spells is that they're not creatures and risk killing your combo.
on another note has anyone considered multani's acolyte?
Currently playing in Modern:
BBB8Rack
Currently Playing in Legacy:
Foil BELCHER
"Never interrupt your opponent while he's making a mistake"
Only if you already have 4x Elvish Visionary
Agreed. Summoner's Pact also makes Faerie Macabre good for this.
Edit: that's wrong Summoner's Pact only get's green creatures, and so can't fetch Faerie Macabre. We'd need Fauna Shaman for that - which is probably too slow.
It tutors by pacts, gsz, CoCalling, FShaman(i do not think that she is so slow and added 1 in MB - it is additional tutor + elf + 2cmc with 2/2).
Ooze is great vs Dredge\goyfs\loams\reanimators\reliquaries\combos
By the way, there is the list which I have tested last 5 days:
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
Tutors:
3 Summoner's Pact
1 Green Sun`s Zenith
1 Chord of Calling
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Regal Force
4 Elvish Visionary
Catalysts:
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Wirewood Symbiote
Just in Case:
1 Viridian Zealot
Manadorks:
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
1 Brain Freeze
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Alterwin:
1 Joraga Warcaller
Mana Base:
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
8 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Pendelheaven
Main combo cards, tutors, draw creatues are here as must be, I believe you know that=)
FShaman can helps you with FaerieMacabre\Ooze\Joraga when you really need it, or even with Emrakul when you are ready to cast him but he is still is not in your hand. And do not forget - it is 2cmc elf who uses under Glimse's effect - allows us to draw card and leaves with 1 mana from Heritage`s abbility - it could be critical very often.
I find that 2 Querions and 2 Symbiotes are quite enough for my build.
I do not use elves with cmc 3 because they are slow down tempo (I tested various buids with 1 Ezuri, 2 EArchdruids, 2 Elvish Spirit Guides). Instead of them Priests and singltone Joraga are doing their job enough good.
Joraga is the alter win tech as the aggro style when the main win cons are not completed. Usually we can get 3-7 or even more little dudes on the battlefield on turn2 so turn3 could be the last one for opp .. or could be not=)
Storm cards are great, and plays more often in couple with Emrakul in the same turn. And usually they are not expected in this deck). Just one thing - against Eldrazi decks Brain Freeze is not good - but it all depends from your meta and could be exchanged with Banefire\Grapeshot
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85-90% of the games it is possible to play Emrakul\storm on T3.
Mostly hard match ups for me are vs burn(fire!), combo(who will be 1st.. usually they are faster=)), perish\stp\pte`s comprising decks.
So i still moderate SB (especially in referance with expectations from post ban metagame).. now I use below SB
1 Elephant Grass
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 City of Solitude
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pitting Niddle
1 Null Rod
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Terastodon
But exactly SB - is my weak side when I play this deck - usually I can find answers on the threats in my SB, BUT! it is hardly for me to choose correct cards in MB which should be borded off.. =\
P.S. Yesterday I tested Noxious Revival singletone - usually it was great = it gets you possibility to use fetches if you need more lands(some times it is really hot question), it is shock-version of Glimpse\any manadork if they have already been putted in your grave, good answer vs reanimators...but i played only a few games with it and with not real TIER decks, so it is still under testing..
P.P.S. Crop Rotation by singletone unfortunately did not prove its profit - when I got Crop in the hand , usually I have already got Cradle under Glimpse effect...
Playing Legacy:
Jund : Belcher (all variations) : Dredge (all variations)
==============
My altered works gallery and sellings
Big Thanks to DNC and all the guys at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig and avvie.
Currently Playing:
Legacy:
BUGBUG DelverGUB
UWRUWR MiraclesRWU
RUGRUG DelverGUR
UUHigh TideUU
Modern:
UWRUWR ControlRWU
UBUB FaeriesBU
BGRJundRGB
URUR StormRU
Standard:
UWUW ControlWU
Mass removal can be very tough. There are cards to deal with it if it is huge in your meta (Caller of the Claw).
For both of these situations it is important to play smart. Try not to overextend against mass removal. If you have a combo piece on the board and the same one in hand, resist the urge to toss another redundant elf on the field so you can recover if need be. Burn can be difficult, but hopefully you have the draw to race them; they can't interact with your Glimpse of Nature and if you manage to get out a critical mass of creatures, the game is yours, combo or not.
Big Thanks to DNC and all the guys at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig and avvie.
Currently Playing:
Legacy:
BUGBUG DelverGUB
UWRUWR MiraclesRWU
RUGRUG DelverGUR
UUHigh TideUU
Modern:
UWRUWR ControlRWU
UBUB FaeriesBU
BGRJundRGB
URUR StormRU
Standard:
UWUW ControlWU
Caller of the Claw+Pact\Chord\Fauna Shaman = great answers on wrath\perish\plague - if you are not sure that you can play combo on current turn, just save mana potential for saving
Thorn of Amethyst = against burn
By the way - regarding Noxious Revival tests I believe it will be good in deck:
Very often It allows you to draw up necessary peaces of combo or "fuel" from your grave (even Glimpse just played in this turn) when you are playing under Glimpse affect and draw a card for every creature's cast.. some times it is Pact for grave with price in 2 life's. And some times it is temporary protection when Dredge\Reanimator is trying to play Iona (in resp)
Playing Legacy:
Jund : Belcher (all variations) : Dredge (all variations)
==============
My altered works gallery and sellings
I agree I think noxious revival would be good both as gy hate and to help prevent fizzle. Was wondering does anyone think Eldrazi Monument would be good in SB for mass removal or is it too expensive cc wise and take away from the deck's potency? Also how about witchbane orb to stop combo other than hive mind or is it also too slow. In some decks I think it would be but combo elves runs alot of mana ramp so I think it might work but I'd like someone with experience with the deck perspective.
Big Thanks to DNC and all the guys at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig and avvie.
Currently Playing:
Legacy:
BUGBUG DelverGUB
UWRUWR MiraclesRWU
RUGRUG DelverGUR
UUHigh TideUU
Modern:
UWRUWR ControlRWU
UBUB FaeriesBU
BGRJundRGB
URUR StormRU
Standard:
UWUW ControlWU