But I've seen some decks running only Glimpse and Green Sun's, do you think that it will be able to do win in today's meta? My problem is whether or not to keep my hand, knowing how to combo. I've been trying to learn by watching people on Youtube running Elves combo, but it's been slightly hard to understand what to do. Do you have any Primers about combo or anything that would help me to understand what's going on the board. I really liked elves combo, mainly because it's one of my favorite tribes.
Thanks everyone!
The decks running only GSZ and Glimpse are likely outdated or budgeted due to NO being slightly pricey. NO is something Elves has been using around 12-18 months. Before that it was mostly just GSZ and Glimpse, with possibly Summoners Pact, thus the Glimpse was the combo.
Your really going to have to learn what hands are decent by keeping. You have to understand all the interactions, what path you can take that will give you the most mana, net you the most cards, etc. Wirewood and Visionary is likely the best synergy in the deck, and slow hands may want to develop this first to get some more creatures.
Overall, a good hand should consist of 1-3 (ideally 2 in my book) lands, and most importantly some form of mana producer turn 1. This takes the form of any 1cc mana dork, such as DRS, Fyndhorn/Llanowar/Mystic etc. I also consider Quirion a good turn 1 play if you have a 1 land hand. If you need to play the aggressor, and get some damage in as quickly as possible, Nettle Sentinel is ideal for turn 1. You can attack immediately turn two, and still do what you need to post combat main phase. You'll also want 2-3 (at least 2) Elves in your hand to begin. This deck does nothing without them.
Your hand should also have (ideally) one of your sorcery spells. GSZ shouldn't be as focused on grabbing your win conditions but rather your other elves to give you a stronger board state and more card advantage, or just to improve the mana engine. That is why NO is so great, it lets us use GSZ more effectively. Furthermore on opening hands, you don't really want to see any of your big guys. Craterhoof Behomoth is a dead card, and Dryad Arbor can be considered bad as well. If you have 2-3 dead cards in your hand, you may want to mulligan (make sure you consider how many lands you have in addition to that.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to keep a 1 land hand even in Elves, but sometimes the hand is legit enough to do it. It will also depend on if your on the play or on the draw. As a lesson to begin, when deciding to keep your hand play out your turns as if you wouldn't be disrupted. Each of your first 2 turns should have the potential at generating 4-5 mana by turn 3. Sometimes (the best hands) you can do this turn 2, and occasionally go off turn 2. Going for that fast ramp isn't always the plan though. Sometimes you meet the conditions of the hand in terms of land quantity and spells, but may have some slow elves. That can be ok too depending on how you find you can optimize it.
You can check any primer on here or on TheSource forum to find out the synergies of the deck. Wirewood Symbiote + Elvish Visionary for the draw engine. Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor for blocking, mana ramping. Either Symbiote or Quirion for untapping a mana dork to use it again. Symbiote can also be used as a blocking tool just as Quirion can, in declaring one of your elves a blocker and returning it to your hand.
The most mana producing combo is Heritage Druid (or Birchlore Ranger) and Nettle Sentinel. This was the initial Glimpse engine, for each green spell you play you get to untap Nettle, and eventually keep repeating the usage of Heritages ability. 2 Nettles and Heritage in play with an active combo should net you 2 mana each elf you cast for example.
Overall there is a lot going on with the deck. Tons of triggers, tons of activated abilities that can be abused on your turn and opponents turn. DRS itself is a win condition as you can machine gun your way to victory with multiple Quirion and Wirewood triggers. Your elves can be on a beat down plan if needed too.
Playing without NO right now I think is bad. Sure your opponent may just think you aren't finding them, but it makes their hate that much easier in not having to worry about the biggest threat Elves has at the moment. Also, your GSZs become more expensive without NO. The 4cc NO for Craterhoof becomes a 9cc for Craterhoof. Finding Progenitus becomes 11cc.
Also, some decks are still using Regal Force (something many of us stopped a while back) but if you are set on the plan without NO, you'll need to adopt Regal Force.
I see, I've found a Primer on The Source, it explains a lot, and also thanks for helping me to understand why NO is good. I was thinking about that 9CC before on Craterhoof, got it why using NO. Thanks yaWgnorW, you really helped.
I want to talk about the number of lands and 1-cmc mana elves in this deck.
I have seen decks that run between 13-19 lands, and 4-8 mana elves. What is the justification for different numbers of these cards?
Depends on the deck. You want mana accel but you don't only want llanowar or fyndhorn elves because you eventually run out of stuff to do with them and you can't combo them. Heritage Druid + 2-3 Nettle Guardian on the other hand could play every single elf card in your entire deck if you had the chance, which goes very well with cards like Glimpse of Nature.
The reason why there's a lesser amount of lands is because you only really need 1 maybe 2 lands at most to get things rolling, you really don't want to be mana flooded when you're drawing, elves are cheap to play and so too many lands is useless especially when running Natural Order. There's actually elf decks that run as little as 10 lands even.
I've used NO before and most often it's the win condition, but some times I don't get quite the right circumstances and I would need to tap too many elves for mana to attack for a win which is why I also run beastmaster ascension, I would at least rather have 2 beastmasters over 4 Deathrite Shaman if I'm not side boarding, Crop Rotation combo with him is rather pointless if you are mono green. If you want to side board black then that's why you'd have to spend a ton of money on dual lands and sac lands and not have them in your sideboard, because you really can't rely on coincidentally getting crop rotation and deathrite in the first few turns for half the games games, having 4 crop rotation would be a waste of space otherwise.
I see, I've found a Primer on The Source, it explains a lot, and also thanks for helping me to understand why NO is good. I was thinking about that 9CC before on Craterhoof, got it why using NO. Thanks yaWgnorW, you really helped.
Depends on the deck. You want mana accel but you don't only want llanowar or fyndhorn elves because you eventually run out of stuff to do with them and you can't combo them. Heritage Druid + 2-3 Nettle Guardian on the other hand could play every single elf card in your entire deck if you had the chance, which goes very well with cards like Glimpse of Nature.
The reason why there's a lesser amount of lands is because you only really need 1 maybe 2 lands at most to get things rolling, you really don't want to be mana flooded when you're drawing, elves are cheap to play and so too many lands is useless especially when running Natural Order. There's actually elf decks that run as little as 10 lands even.
I've used NO before and most often it's the win condition, but some times I don't get quite the right circumstances and I would need to tap too many elves for mana to attack for a win which is why I also run beastmaster ascension, I would at least rather have 2 beastmasters over 4 Deathrite Shaman if I'm not side boarding, Crop Rotation combo with him is rather pointless if you are mono green. If you want to side board black then that's why you'd have to spend a ton of money on dual lands and sac lands and not have them in your sideboard, because you really can't rely on coincidentally getting crop rotation and deathrite in the first few turns for half the games games, having 4 crop rotation would be a waste of space otherwise.
Hmm...well from what I've seen the decks that have 13-15 lands are typically the budget versions. No cradle, all forest, mono green etc. 16 and up tend to fall out of that budget list as they are able to run Gaea's Cradle more effectively. I run 18 and stand by 18 as being the best number. I've tested 17 and 16 extensively before. This count of course does not include Dryad Arbor. This testing of course is with the most main stream, non budget legacy Elves style lists. I did a fair share of the lower land count lists as well, it just felt sub optimal but as a plus had a pretty straight forward and really consistent plan.
The reason I like 4 DRS is not because of his mana ability. His ability to disrupt graveyards, other DRS's and machine gun an opponent to death via the other triggers in elves is amazing. I've likely won just as many games with him as NO has won me. Beastmaster Ascension is some fun tech, and actually intrigues me but is border line too cute. Mono green budget lists can use things like this to support it, where the sideboard is basically loads of helpful permanents intended to slow an opponent down while not affecting you. Your reasoning for this is because NO does not always have enough Elves to go for the win if you can get Hoof on the field. I see that this can trigger instantly upon hitting 7 counters, but what if you can't build up to it either? Then you hit the problem you have with NO essentially. Don't get me wrong, if this comes down early and resolves, it would only take about 2 minor attacks before you can go in with a good number of elves to trigger the enchantment; but if you have that many elves NO would also work and provide you with trample. Its not that the plan is bad, its that it is slower and upon seeing it your opponent can bait you into an Abrupt Decay. I will consider the card though.
In versions that have access to the funds for running black, a lot of things become viable and matchups can greatly improve through the full use of DRS, Abrupt Decay, discard, etc. The other color most used is white, obviously for the lists that favor Qasali Pridemage or Gaddock Teeg, etc. I've actually moved away from white as much as I could, and use Ruric Thar as my random 3rd color in the event I need to hard cast.
To help with the mana dork question, I agree it depends on what version is being used. If its the budget mono green, you probably don't want DRS but will want 7-8 actually mana dorks (Llanowar/Fyndhorn). In more mainstream lists, 4 DRS is a staple with anywhere from 1-3 additional mana dorks. I use 1 extra Fyndhorn, others use more. A mana dork for either style of deck is the decks best turn 1. It seems as the higher the land count goes, the lower the mana dork number comes.
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GBR Elves UBR ANT R Burn
UR Gift Storm GB/GR/GW/G Karn Tron GW Aura RW Burn
GBWUR Child of Alara BWR Kaalia of the Vast UWR Narset, Enlightened Master GWR Uril, the Miststalker
"Whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're right." - Henry Ford
Hmm...well from what I've seen the decks that have 13-15 lands are typically the budget versions. No cradle, all forest, mono green etc. 16 and up tend to fall out of that budget list as they are able to run Gaea's Cradle more effectively. I run 18 and stand by 18 as being the best number. I've tested 17 and 16 extensively before. This count of course does not include Dryad Arbor. This testing of course is with the most main stream, non budget legacy Elves style lists. I did a fair share of the lower land count lists as well, it just felt sub optimal but as a plus had a pretty straight forward and really consistent plan.
The reason I like 4 DRS is not because of his mana ability. His ability to disrupt graveyards, other DRS's and machine gun an opponent to death via the other triggers in elves is amazing. I've likely won just as many games with him as NO has won me. Beastmaster Ascension is some fun tech, and actually intrigues me but is border line too cute. Mono green budget lists can use things like this to support it, where the sideboard is basically loads of helpful permanents intended to slow an opponent down while not affecting you. Your reasoning for this is because NO does not always have enough Elves to go for the win if you can get Hoof on the field. I see that this can trigger instantly upon hitting 7 counters, but what if you can't build up to it either? Then you hit the problem you have with NO essentially. Don't get me wrong, if this comes down early and resolves, it would only take about 2 minor attacks before you can go in with a good number of elves to trigger the enchantment; but if you have that many elves NO would also work and provide you with trample. Its not that the plan is bad, its that it is slower and upon seeing it your opponent can bait you into an Abrupt Decay. I will consider the card though.
In versions that have access to the funds for running black, a lot of things become viable and matchups can greatly improve through the full use of DRS, Abrupt Decay, discard, etc. The other color most used is white, obviously for the lists that favor Qasali Pridemage or Gaddock Teeg, etc. I've actually moved away from white as much as I could, and use Ruric Thar as my random 3rd color in the event I need to hard cast.
To help with the mana dork question, I agree it depends on what version is being used. If its the budget mono green, you probably don't want DRS but will want 7-8 actually mana dorks (Llanowar/Fyndhorn). In more mainstream lists, 4 DRS is a staple with anywhere from 1-3 additional mana dorks. I use 1 extra Fyndhorn, others use more. A mana dork for either style of deck is the decks best turn 1. It seems as the higher the land count goes, the lower the mana dork number comes.
18 usually works for me too, but I don't see how fewer lands = budget seeing as how you can get lands for free at many card shops that run MTG events.
With beast master when I was testing there were a lot of times where I had exactly 6-8 creatures and I just could not afford to tap enough elves to bring craterhoof out because I would need to tap too many elves, 3 attacking creatures wouldn't do it for me, it isn't a guarantee because I assumed the opponent would have at least 2 creatures out by that point. By that point though I had 2-3 lands and could easily just play beastmaster and didn't need craterhoof. It's possible it can be solved by running 4 Titania's, I'll have to see how it works out.
With Deathrite graveyard disruption is good but against a storm deck and many others it wouldn't really matter, I would keep it as a side board and merely run dual lands.
Edit: After not assuming my opponent had 2 creatures and running 2 more titania and I was willing to attack with 4 creatures, I found turn 4 supposed wins happen a lot more often, but no turn 3s yet.
Edit: After not assuming my opponent had 2 creatures and running 2 more titania and I was willing to attack with 4 creatures, I found turn 4 supposed wins happen a lot more often, but no turn 3s yet.
Turn 3 wins usually involve turn 1 mana creature into turn 2 Cradle which with enough 1 drop elves and/or Heritage Druid means you can dump your hand to set up for a T3 NO or hardcast Hoof with a second Cradle.
For those interested, here is my report for my 30th place finish at GP: DC.
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"I don't know why people say a double-edged sword is bad. It's a sword. With two edges." - Kamahl, Pit Fighter
That's assuming there's no disruption though. If my opponent plays Pyroclasm, then the elves are history. Works against infinite squirrels too, good sideboard for red.
That's assuming there's no disruption though. If my opponent plays Pyroclasm, then the elves are history. Works against infinite squirrels too, good sideboard for red.
You must never draw Cradle in your opener with a mana dork then. T3 NO kills are pretty much defined by T1 mana dork into T2 dump most of hand with Cradle (2 1 drops, Cradle, Visionary/more 1 drops, potential Visionary/Symbiote shinanegans if you are lucky). Either that or T1 mana dork into T2 Glimpse, Quirion Ranger, Heritage Druid, another 1 drop into many dudes (you can win T2 with this setup as well, but usually I end up passing due to drawing multiple NOs/GSZ).
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"I don't know why people say a double-edged sword is bad. It's a sword. With two edges." - Kamahl, Pit Fighter
You must never draw Cradle in your opener with a mana dork then. T3 NO kills are pretty much defined by T1 mana dork into T2 dump most of hand with Cradle (2 1 drops, Cradle, Visionary/more 1 drops, potential Visionary/Symbiote shinanegans if you are lucky). Either that or T1 mana dork into T2 Glimpse, Quirion Ranger, Heritage Druid, another 1 drop into many dudes (you can win T2 with this setup as well, but usually I end up passing due to drawing multiple NOs/GSZ).
Exactly my thinking. There are other ways to get a turn 3, but that is the most consistent. TBH I think turn 3 should be the goal of this deck. It is known as one of the slower combo decks sure, but turn 4 is quite slow for it. I often even get Glimpse combo on turn 2. Sure its risky, but It can happen, even if it only gets you a few elves on the field, it leads to turn 3 endgame.
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GBR Elves UBR ANT R Burn
UR Gift Storm GB/GR/GW/G Karn Tron GW Aura RW Burn
GBWUR Child of Alara BWR Kaalia of the Vast UWR Narset, Enlightened Master GWR Uril, the Miststalker
"Whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're right." - Henry Ford
@quizzlemanizzle
If you don't play Ruric Thar, you can easily echange the Mindbreak Traps for something else as their are part of a strategy very much focused on him.
After some delay, SCG just put up my article about me winning the Bazaar of Moxen Paris.
Because of its length, they decided to split it into two parts, with the first covering how I arrived in Llanowar, the journey to Paris, cardchoices, sideboarding, general matchup strategies as well as my 7-0 run in the Last-Chance-Trial for 3 Byes in the main event.
If you like it, I would appreciate you leaving a comment on their site as this is my very first own article on their site (after previously only acting as a middleman for other writers.) If the feedback is positive, I hope they'll maybe let me setup a series of articles at some point.
-Julian
Julian, great read on there so far. I can't wait for the other part to come out. I'm particularly pleased with your insights on most of the MU's. Overall we had the same thoughts regarding many, but there were cases where I hadn't considered something you mentioned. I'm sure this will be a go-to bookmark link for many Elves players for a long time.
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GBR Elves UBR ANT R Burn
UR Gift Storm GB/GR/GW/G Karn Tron GW Aura RW Burn
GBWUR Child of Alara BWR Kaalia of the Vast UWR Narset, Enlightened Master GWR Uril, the Miststalker
"Whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're right." - Henry Ford
I have never seen a Legacy list run that combination of cards. I do not see what can be gained from running them over any of the current choices in the deck. Personally, I would say the deck as it stands now is better.
I remember last standard rotation, Scars and Innistrad, there was a combo elves deck that utilized Village Bell-Ringer and Genesis Wave. Is that something that has been explored with this deck or is what the deck run's now strictly better?
Just curious as I am looking into Legacy and this is the deck that seems to speak to me the most.
Also, great article Julian! Really great read, a lot of great insight for me as a new pilot of the deck.
The legacy list can do similar things with Priest of Titania/Elvish Archdruid and Quirion Ranger/Wirewood Symbiote. However, I suggest reading the primer on the Source to get an idea on how the deck plays.
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"I don't know why people say a double-edged sword is bad. It's a sword. With two edges." - Kamahl, Pit Fighter
@quizzlemanizzle
If you don't play Ruric Thar, you can easily echange the Mindbreak Traps for something else as their are part of a strategy very much focused on him.
After some delay, SCG just put up my article about me winning the Bazaar of Moxen Paris.
Because of its length, they decided to split it into two parts, with the first covering how I arrived in Llanowar, the journey to Paris, cardchoices, sideboarding, general matchup strategies as well as my 7-0 run in the Last-Chance-Trial for 3 Byes in the main event.
If you like it, I would appreciate you leaving a comment on their site as this is my very first own article on their site (after previously only acting as a middleman for other writers.) If the feedback is positive, I hope they'll maybe let me setup a series of articles at some point.
I played in a 16-person tournament the other day for a From the Vaults: 20.
4 rounds, cut to top 4.
I haven't played Elves in months... the last tournament was back in March at SCG Open Kansas City, so I felt pretty rusty, as I usually play decks like Dredge and Belcher.
I adjusted my sideboard more to my meta. I felt pretty confident against the normal Fair decks, I just wanted to win against the combo decks that I knew would show up or usually do (Oops all spells, Belcher, Storm).
Round One: Death and Taxes
Game one I don't remember too well besides him killing the few enablers I did have, between Swords to Plowshares and Mangarda of Corridor. He took out 2 Deathrite's and a Heritage, I think? He locked me down pretty well, had Wasteland for the Gaea's Cradle, etc.
Game 2 was grindy as well, for each creature he took out, I drew another good one. I eventually was able to land a dude or two, and used Glimpse as a cantrip. Instead, it just kept rolling with the single Nettle I had on board. I threw down about 10 guys, and next turn the Natural Order was played.
Game 3 was the best game all day. I don't quite remember every exact detail, but it was Bayou, Cradle, 4 dudes, and a Natural Order. I started with an Llanowar Elves. Turn 2 throw out my whole hand thanks to Cradle. Turn 3 put down a dude, sac the dude to Natural Order, and Craterhoof and friends come crashing in for 21 after blocks. He showed me his hand, had he another white-mana or played the Vial a turn earlier, it would of been a more interactive game.
2-1
1-0
Round Two: Oops! All Spells
I win the roll, which seems pretty important. I hope that he starts with a bad hand, as he mulligans to 6. I did as well, just because a Deathrite is pretty much my only hope before sideboarding.
Turn one: Savannah, Deathrite, Go.
Turn One: Combo, GG.
I bring in 4 Mindbreak Traps, 1 Gaddock Teeg, and a Scavenging Ooze. All that plus Deathrite should be fine, as long as I get decent hands.
I start game 2 with a Mindbreak Trap in hand, along with a GSZ and Llanowar Elves (to ensure the turn 2 Teeg). He uses Gitaxian Probe and sees a Mindbreak Trap, so he tries to play around it. I get Gaddock Teeg out turn 2, and at this point I think he knows it's game but he won't scoop. We go through the motions, I draw whatever I get and play it until I draw a Natural Order to finally get a lot of damage in rather than 2-4 a turn.
Game 3 was nearly the same, except I started with a Deathrite, Mindbreak Trap, AND Ooze in hand. I put him into a lock pretty quickly. I wanted to GSZ for a Ruric Thar for sick rub-in's, but instead I just rather win quickly so I go check out what's being played around the room more*.
2-1
2-0
Round Three: RUG Delver
I figured RUG is a bad match-up. However, like any other deck that tries to lock us out, we can come back out of nowhere. My biggest concern was Stifle on Craterhoof or Regal Force, so I liked the idea of falling back on Ruric Thar if needed. Otherwise, I figured it was just the aggro-game, and try to get a GSZ or NO in when I can.
Game One he just had all the answers. Forked Bolt, Fire/Ice, all that jazz. He started with one Delver, Brainstormed, and didn't flip it. Instead he put down another, and then flipped both. What a race, I suppose. Had I another turn I could of probably came back.
Brought in 3 Abrupt Decay and 1 Progenitus. However, game 2 wasn't much of a game. Started with a pretty smooth looking one-land hand, but I just couldn't hit much else. A Submerge to Time-Walk me didn't help either. Oh well.
0-2
2-1
Round Four: Tezzeret Control
I had no clue what I was up against. He had a lot of artifacts and stuff, but the only thing that had really stopped me was a Grafdigger's Cage. I was able to hardcast Ruric Thar when he was at 5 life and just lock him out of the game.
Game 2 I brought in Abrupt Decays, Viridian Shaman. He had all the answers this game... I started with a sweet hand of a bunch of dudes, Cradle, and a Shaman. I get some beats in, I forget what I used Shaman on, and then I walk into the turn 4 Damnation that I didn't know he had game one. He locked me out after that... Grafdigger's Cage, Ensnaring Bridge, Engineered Plague, etc. Had I known about the Academy Ruins, I would of killed the Plague immediately rather than Cage with Decay, which he brought back later. Between those cards and a Chalice of the Void (he countered his own Cage, lulz), I was getting locked out pretty bad. Tezzeret digs for a lot of stuff, and eventually uses his Ultimate to kill me, as I'm getting some bad draws without any dudes on board.
Game 3 I kept an awful hand, and would of never kept it in any other match-up or game, but in my mindset, I think I was trying to play around Grafdigger's Cage too much. Kept a pretty bad hand of a lot of big, expensive cards with a Bayou, Cradle, Visionary. I wanted to hardcast Ruric Thar, but I proceeded to not draw any mana dorks or any lands for over 9 turns, so I had to deal with it. He played Jace, which I hadn't seen the first 2 games, and then drew a Gaddock Teeg the turn after he played it. Jace did no work that game though, besides bouncing my Ezuri twice, then dying. I was fine with that, because I had no other lines of play both turns. Once I finally start drawing some business cards, and a friggin' Fetchland for a Taiga, it's too late. We have gone to Time in the game, and he's established too much of a board presence. I'm low on life and a Tezzeret sitting there for more than a turn can be game. I should of mulliganed to a more aggressive hand, but I guess I was in a different mindset where I figured I wouldn't have such bad draws.
1-2
2-2.
Overall: 2-2
The Tezzeret player proceeded to top 4 against UR Delver, which he lost against. The UR Delver player lost in the finals of game 3 against my Round 3 opponent by casting a Brainfart over a Brainstorm (he put the wrong land on top, d'oh!)
I definitely love Elves and will be making it my main-deck again. Gotta step my game up.
* I saw Pox beat RUG Delver round 2. His Brainstorms were atrocious. Belcher then beat the same RUG Delver player the next round... I should note he isnt a bad player. He has top 16 several SCG Legacy Open's, and been on camera a handful of times. Some players are better lucky than good, I suppose. The Belcher player, which i should note was playing my Belcher list, and he has no previous experience with Legacy, then proceeded to beat a Shardless BUG player round 4. Belcher friend finally lost in the top 4 to my round 3 RUG Delver opponent.
Please tell me how I can improve, within the range of my possibilities
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
I remember last standard rotation, Scars and Innistrad, there was a combo elves deck that utilized Village Bell-Ringer and Genesis Wave. Is that something that has been explored with this deck or is what the deck run's now strictly better?
Just curious as I am looking into Legacy and this is the deck that seems to speak to me the most.
Also, great article Julian! Really great read, a lot of great insight for me as a new pilot of the deck.
It's strictly worse, because you are replacing natural tribal synergy with crap cards that add nothing to the overarching combos and rely on you to already be winning to work.
Imagine drawing Village Bell-Ringer or Genesis Wave in the current deck. Is there any point where those would be better than anything else? Nope.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Say I don't have acess to 4 Gaea's craddle, am I better off playing a crop rotation or a priest of Tatiana in it's stead?
I have been looking at Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx lately. It is for the most part strictly worse than cradle unless you have non creature permanents with green mana, but it does a very similar thing in this deck to cradle and you can have both in play.
The thing about Nyx is it cuts the wind from your sails if player early. It's great if it's ready to be used when it comes down, but if your not ready for it, it is near worthless. Crop rotation or bust I think. A land that taps for colourless is near useless in this deck.
I wanna pilot this deck so bad in legacy. My question is (thought it may be dumb to ask), can it combo off on turn ? If so what is the sequence of cards played?
Elves can combo off for the kill on turn 2 given the right sequence of cards. Turn 3/4 is more common.
As for the sequence, it's pretty draw dependent.
Turn 1: Land -> Mana elf/Zenith for Arbor.
Turn 2: Cradle -> Heritage Druid + Sentinels (2 or more is ideal) + Glimpse (more than 1 if possible) -> play your deck out onto the board, finishing up with Craterhoof for lethal.
The decks running only GSZ and Glimpse are likely outdated or budgeted due to NO being slightly pricey. NO is something Elves has been using around 12-18 months. Before that it was mostly just GSZ and Glimpse, with possibly Summoners Pact, thus the Glimpse was the combo.
Your really going to have to learn what hands are decent by keeping. You have to understand all the interactions, what path you can take that will give you the most mana, net you the most cards, etc. Wirewood and Visionary is likely the best synergy in the deck, and slow hands may want to develop this first to get some more creatures.
Overall, a good hand should consist of 1-3 (ideally 2 in my book) lands, and most importantly some form of mana producer turn 1. This takes the form of any 1cc mana dork, such as DRS, Fyndhorn/Llanowar/Mystic etc. I also consider Quirion a good turn 1 play if you have a 1 land hand. If you need to play the aggressor, and get some damage in as quickly as possible, Nettle Sentinel is ideal for turn 1. You can attack immediately turn two, and still do what you need to post combat main phase. You'll also want 2-3 (at least 2) Elves in your hand to begin. This deck does nothing without them.
Your hand should also have (ideally) one of your sorcery spells. GSZ shouldn't be as focused on grabbing your win conditions but rather your other elves to give you a stronger board state and more card advantage, or just to improve the mana engine. That is why NO is so great, it lets us use GSZ more effectively. Furthermore on opening hands, you don't really want to see any of your big guys. Craterhoof Behomoth is a dead card, and Dryad Arbor can be considered bad as well. If you have 2-3 dead cards in your hand, you may want to mulligan (make sure you consider how many lands you have in addition to that.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to keep a 1 land hand even in Elves, but sometimes the hand is legit enough to do it. It will also depend on if your on the play or on the draw. As a lesson to begin, when deciding to keep your hand play out your turns as if you wouldn't be disrupted. Each of your first 2 turns should have the potential at generating 4-5 mana by turn 3. Sometimes (the best hands) you can do this turn 2, and occasionally go off turn 2. Going for that fast ramp isn't always the plan though. Sometimes you meet the conditions of the hand in terms of land quantity and spells, but may have some slow elves. That can be ok too depending on how you find you can optimize it.
You can check any primer on here or on TheSource forum to find out the synergies of the deck. Wirewood Symbiote + Elvish Visionary for the draw engine. Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor for blocking, mana ramping. Either Symbiote or Quirion for untapping a mana dork to use it again. Symbiote can also be used as a blocking tool just as Quirion can, in declaring one of your elves a blocker and returning it to your hand.
The most mana producing combo is Heritage Druid (or Birchlore Ranger) and Nettle Sentinel. This was the initial Glimpse engine, for each green spell you play you get to untap Nettle, and eventually keep repeating the usage of Heritages ability. 2 Nettles and Heritage in play with an active combo should net you 2 mana each elf you cast for example.
Overall there is a lot going on with the deck. Tons of triggers, tons of activated abilities that can be abused on your turn and opponents turn. DRS itself is a win condition as you can machine gun your way to victory with multiple Quirion and Wirewood triggers. Your elves can be on a beat down plan if needed too.
Playing without NO right now I think is bad. Sure your opponent may just think you aren't finding them, but it makes their hate that much easier in not having to worry about the biggest threat Elves has at the moment. Also, your GSZs become more expensive without NO. The 4cc NO for Craterhoof becomes a 9cc for Craterhoof. Finding Progenitus becomes 11cc.
Also, some decks are still using Regal Force (something many of us stopped a while back) but if you are set on the plan without NO, you'll need to adopt Regal Force.
UBR ANT
R Burn
GB/GR/GW/G Karn Tron
GW Aura
RW Burn
BWR Kaalia of the Vast
UWR Narset, Enlightened Master
GWR Uril, the Miststalker
Depends on the deck. You want mana accel but you don't only want llanowar or fyndhorn elves because you eventually run out of stuff to do with them and you can't combo them. Heritage Druid + 2-3 Nettle Guardian on the other hand could play every single elf card in your entire deck if you had the chance, which goes very well with cards like Glimpse of Nature.
The reason why there's a lesser amount of lands is because you only really need 1 maybe 2 lands at most to get things rolling, you really don't want to be mana flooded when you're drawing, elves are cheap to play and so too many lands is useless especially when running Natural Order. There's actually elf decks that run as little as 10 lands even.
I've used NO before and most often it's the win condition, but some times I don't get quite the right circumstances and I would need to tap too many elves for mana to attack for a win which is why I also run beastmaster ascension, I would at least rather have 2 beastmasters over 4 Deathrite Shaman if I'm not side boarding, Crop Rotation combo with him is rather pointless if you are mono green. If you want to side board black then that's why you'd have to spend a ton of money on dual lands and sac lands and not have them in your sideboard, because you really can't rely on coincidentally getting crop rotation and deathrite in the first few turns for half the games games, having 4 crop rotation would be a waste of space otherwise.
No prob
Hmm...well from what I've seen the decks that have 13-15 lands are typically the budget versions. No cradle, all forest, mono green etc. 16 and up tend to fall out of that budget list as they are able to run Gaea's Cradle more effectively. I run 18 and stand by 18 as being the best number. I've tested 17 and 16 extensively before. This count of course does not include Dryad Arbor. This testing of course is with the most main stream, non budget legacy Elves style lists. I did a fair share of the lower land count lists as well, it just felt sub optimal but as a plus had a pretty straight forward and really consistent plan.
The reason I like 4 DRS is not because of his mana ability. His ability to disrupt graveyards, other DRS's and machine gun an opponent to death via the other triggers in elves is amazing. I've likely won just as many games with him as NO has won me. Beastmaster Ascension is some fun tech, and actually intrigues me but is border line too cute. Mono green budget lists can use things like this to support it, where the sideboard is basically loads of helpful permanents intended to slow an opponent down while not affecting you. Your reasoning for this is because NO does not always have enough Elves to go for the win if you can get Hoof on the field. I see that this can trigger instantly upon hitting 7 counters, but what if you can't build up to it either? Then you hit the problem you have with NO essentially. Don't get me wrong, if this comes down early and resolves, it would only take about 2 minor attacks before you can go in with a good number of elves to trigger the enchantment; but if you have that many elves NO would also work and provide you with trample. Its not that the plan is bad, its that it is slower and upon seeing it your opponent can bait you into an Abrupt Decay. I will consider the card though.
In versions that have access to the funds for running black, a lot of things become viable and matchups can greatly improve through the full use of DRS, Abrupt Decay, discard, etc. The other color most used is white, obviously for the lists that favor Qasali Pridemage or Gaddock Teeg, etc. I've actually moved away from white as much as I could, and use Ruric Thar as my random 3rd color in the event I need to hard cast.
To help with the mana dork question, I agree it depends on what version is being used. If its the budget mono green, you probably don't want DRS but will want 7-8 actually mana dorks (Llanowar/Fyndhorn). In more mainstream lists, 4 DRS is a staple with anywhere from 1-3 additional mana dorks. I use 1 extra Fyndhorn, others use more. A mana dork for either style of deck is the decks best turn 1. It seems as the higher the land count goes, the lower the mana dork number comes.
UBR ANT
R Burn
GB/GR/GW/G Karn Tron
GW Aura
RW Burn
BWR Kaalia of the Vast
UWR Narset, Enlightened Master
GWR Uril, the Miststalker
18 usually works for me too, but I don't see how fewer lands = budget seeing as how you can get lands for free at many card shops that run MTG events.
With beast master when I was testing there were a lot of times where I had exactly 6-8 creatures and I just could not afford to tap enough elves to bring craterhoof out because I would need to tap too many elves, 3 attacking creatures wouldn't do it for me, it isn't a guarantee because I assumed the opponent would have at least 2 creatures out by that point. By that point though I had 2-3 lands and could easily just play beastmaster and didn't need craterhoof. It's possible it can be solved by running 4 Titania's, I'll have to see how it works out.
With Deathrite graveyard disruption is good but against a storm deck and many others it wouldn't really matter, I would keep it as a side board and merely run dual lands.
Turn 3 wins usually involve turn 1 mana creature into turn 2 Cradle which with enough 1 drop elves and/or Heritage Druid means you can dump your hand to set up for a T3 NO or hardcast Hoof with a second Cradle.
For those interested, here is my report for my 30th place finish at GP: DC.
1 t4
2 t5
3 t4
4 t8
5 t4
6 t4
7 t4
8 t4
9 t5
10 t5
11 t5
12 t6
13 t7
14 t5
15 t8
16 t7
17 t4
18 t4
19 t5
20 t4
That's assuming there's no disruption though. If my opponent plays Pyroclasm, then the elves are history. Works against infinite squirrels too, good sideboard for red.
You must never draw Cradle in your opener with a mana dork then. T3 NO kills are pretty much defined by T1 mana dork into T2 dump most of hand with Cradle (2 1 drops, Cradle, Visionary/more 1 drops, potential Visionary/Symbiote shinanegans if you are lucky). Either that or T1 mana dork into T2 Glimpse, Quirion Ranger, Heritage Druid, another 1 drop into many dudes (you can win T2 with this setup as well, but usually I end up passing due to drawing multiple NOs/GSZ).
Exactly my thinking. There are other ways to get a turn 3, but that is the most consistent. TBH I think turn 3 should be the goal of this deck. It is known as one of the slower combo decks sure, but turn 4 is quite slow for it. I often even get Glimpse combo on turn 2. Sure its risky, but It can happen, even if it only gets you a few elves on the field, it leads to turn 3 endgame.
UBR ANT
R Burn
GB/GR/GW/G Karn Tron
GW Aura
RW Burn
BWR Kaalia of the Vast
UWR Narset, Enlightened Master
GWR Uril, the Miststalker
It seems like we have too many toolbox options and too little space haha
Basilisk Collar? $5.00
Shooting down a baneslayer angel? Priceless
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Julian, great read on there so far. I can't wait for the other part to come out. I'm particularly pleased with your insights on most of the MU's. Overall we had the same thoughts regarding many, but there were cases where I hadn't considered something you mentioned. I'm sure this will be a go-to bookmark link for many Elves players for a long time.
UBR ANT
R Burn
GB/GR/GW/G Karn Tron
GW Aura
RW Burn
BWR Kaalia of the Vast
UWR Narset, Enlightened Master
GWR Uril, the Miststalker
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
The legacy list can do similar things with Priest of Titania/Elvish Archdruid and Quirion Ranger/Wirewood Symbiote. However, I suggest reading the primer on the Source to get an idea on how the deck plays.
I'd to hear about how the pox match up went
4 rounds, cut to top 4.
I haven't played Elves in months... the last tournament was back in March at SCG Open Kansas City, so I felt pretty rusty, as I usually play decks like Dredge and Belcher.
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Llanowar Elves
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Ezuri Renegade Leader
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
3 Forest
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Progenitus
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
I adjusted my sideboard more to my meta. I felt pretty confident against the normal Fair decks, I just wanted to win against the combo decks that I knew would show up or usually do (Oops all spells, Belcher, Storm).
Round One: Death and Taxes
Game one I don't remember too well besides him killing the few enablers I did have, between Swords to Plowshares and Mangarda of Corridor. He took out 2 Deathrite's and a Heritage, I think? He locked me down pretty well, had Wasteland for the Gaea's Cradle, etc.
Game 2 was grindy as well, for each creature he took out, I drew another good one. I eventually was able to land a dude or two, and used Glimpse as a cantrip. Instead, it just kept rolling with the single Nettle I had on board. I threw down about 10 guys, and next turn the Natural Order was played.
Game 3 was the best game all day. I don't quite remember every exact detail, but it was Bayou, Cradle, 4 dudes, and a Natural Order. I started with an Llanowar Elves. Turn 2 throw out my whole hand thanks to Cradle. Turn 3 put down a dude, sac the dude to Natural Order, and Craterhoof and friends come crashing in for 21 after blocks. He showed me his hand, had he another white-mana or played the Vial a turn earlier, it would of been a more interactive game.
2-1
1-0
Round Two: Oops! All Spells
I win the roll, which seems pretty important. I hope that he starts with a bad hand, as he mulligans to 6. I did as well, just because a Deathrite is pretty much my only hope before sideboarding.
Turn one: Savannah, Deathrite, Go.
Turn One: Combo, GG.
I bring in 4 Mindbreak Traps, 1 Gaddock Teeg, and a Scavenging Ooze. All that plus Deathrite should be fine, as long as I get decent hands.
I start game 2 with a Mindbreak Trap in hand, along with a GSZ and Llanowar Elves (to ensure the turn 2 Teeg). He uses Gitaxian Probe and sees a Mindbreak Trap, so he tries to play around it. I get Gaddock Teeg out turn 2, and at this point I think he knows it's game but he won't scoop. We go through the motions, I draw whatever I get and play it until I draw a Natural Order to finally get a lot of damage in rather than 2-4 a turn.
Game 3 was nearly the same, except I started with a Deathrite, Mindbreak Trap, AND Ooze in hand. I put him into a lock pretty quickly. I wanted to GSZ for a Ruric Thar for sick rub-in's, but instead I just rather win quickly so I go check out what's being played around the room more*.
2-1
2-0
Round Three: RUG Delver
I figured RUG is a bad match-up. However, like any other deck that tries to lock us out, we can come back out of nowhere. My biggest concern was Stifle on Craterhoof or Regal Force, so I liked the idea of falling back on Ruric Thar if needed. Otherwise, I figured it was just the aggro-game, and try to get a GSZ or NO in when I can.
Game One he just had all the answers. Forked Bolt, Fire/Ice, all that jazz. He started with one Delver, Brainstormed, and didn't flip it. Instead he put down another, and then flipped both. What a race, I suppose. Had I another turn I could of probably came back.
Brought in 3 Abrupt Decay and 1 Progenitus. However, game 2 wasn't much of a game. Started with a pretty smooth looking one-land hand, but I just couldn't hit much else. A Submerge to Time-Walk me didn't help either. Oh well.
0-2
2-1
Round Four: Tezzeret Control
I had no clue what I was up against. He had a lot of artifacts and stuff, but the only thing that had really stopped me was a Grafdigger's Cage. I was able to hardcast Ruric Thar when he was at 5 life and just lock him out of the game.
Game 2 I brought in Abrupt Decays, Viridian Shaman. He had all the answers this game... I started with a sweet hand of a bunch of dudes, Cradle, and a Shaman. I get some beats in, I forget what I used Shaman on, and then I walk into the turn 4 Damnation that I didn't know he had game one. He locked me out after that... Grafdigger's Cage, Ensnaring Bridge, Engineered Plague, etc. Had I known about the Academy Ruins, I would of killed the Plague immediately rather than Cage with Decay, which he brought back later. Between those cards and a Chalice of the Void (he countered his own Cage, lulz), I was getting locked out pretty bad. Tezzeret digs for a lot of stuff, and eventually uses his Ultimate to kill me, as I'm getting some bad draws without any dudes on board.
Game 3 I kept an awful hand, and would of never kept it in any other match-up or game, but in my mindset, I think I was trying to play around Grafdigger's Cage too much. Kept a pretty bad hand of a lot of big, expensive cards with a Bayou, Cradle, Visionary. I wanted to hardcast Ruric Thar, but I proceeded to not draw any mana dorks or any lands for over 9 turns, so I had to deal with it. He played Jace, which I hadn't seen the first 2 games, and then drew a Gaddock Teeg the turn after he played it. Jace did no work that game though, besides bouncing my Ezuri twice, then dying. I was fine with that, because I had no other lines of play both turns. Once I finally start drawing some business cards, and a friggin' Fetchland for a Taiga, it's too late. We have gone to Time in the game, and he's established too much of a board presence. I'm low on life and a Tezzeret sitting there for more than a turn can be game. I should of mulliganed to a more aggressive hand, but I guess I was in a different mindset where I figured I wouldn't have such bad draws.
1-2
2-2.
Overall: 2-2
The Tezzeret player proceeded to top 4 against UR Delver, which he lost against. The UR Delver player lost in the finals of game 3 against my Round 3 opponent by casting a Brainfart over a Brainstorm (he put the wrong land on top, d'oh!)
I definitely love Elves and will be making it my main-deck again. Gotta step my game up.
* I saw Pox beat RUG Delver round 2. His Brainstorms were atrocious. Belcher then beat the same RUG Delver player the next round... I should note he isnt a bad player. He has top 16 several SCG Legacy Open's, and been on camera a handful of times. Some players are better lucky than good, I suppose. The Belcher player, which i should note was playing my Belcher list, and he has no previous experience with Legacy, then proceeded to beat a Shardless BUG player round 4. Belcher friend finally lost in the top 4 to my round 3 RUG Delver opponent.
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.
I'm considering this list:
4 elvish visionary
4 deathrite shaman
4 quirion ranger
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
1 fyndhorn elves
1 birchlore ranger
2 craterhoof behemoth
4 glimpse of nature
3 natural order
4 green sun zenith
2 misty rainforest
2 verdant catacomb
3 wooded foothills
3 windswept Heath
2 forest
2 bayou
3 gaea's craddle
2 dryad arbor
1 natural order
1 progenitus
2 pithing needle
1 ruric-thar, the unbowed
3 abrupt decay
3 cabal's therapy
2 toughtseize
Please tell me how I can improve, within the range of my possibilities
It's strictly worse, because you are replacing natural tribal synergy with
crapcards that add nothing to the overarching combos and rely on you to already be winning to work.Imagine drawing Village Bell-Ringer or Genesis Wave in the current deck. Is there any point where those would be better than anything else? Nope.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
I have been looking at Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx lately. It is for the most part strictly worse than cradle unless you have non creature permanents with green mana, but it does a very similar thing in this deck to cradle and you can have both in play.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Elves can combo off for the kill on turn 2 given the right sequence of cards. Turn 3/4 is more common.
As for the sequence, it's pretty draw dependent.
Turn 1: Land -> Mana elf/Zenith for Arbor.
Turn 2: Cradle -> Heritage Druid + Sentinels (2 or more is ideal) + Glimpse (more than 1 if possible) -> play your deck out onto the board, finishing up with Craterhoof for lethal.