Sure, I think that Flayer of the Hatebound is a pretty respectable target for Dread Return. It makes me want to try it out, so maybe I will sometime!
My main suggestion would be to try out Putrid Imp, if you haven't already. I find it a less risky alternative to discarding with Breakthrough, although I run both (currently testing 4 Imps and 2 Breakthrough), and it is potentially reusable.
And if you think I like Putrid Imp, just wait till one of the other Dredge players that also plays Tireless Tribe responds also.
I actually started with LEDless dredge 5 years ago and just recently dropped PImp in my LED list for the following reasons: 1) it doesn't fit in my combo plan as multiple PImps in my opening hand is mediocre compared to multiple draw spells and 2) it doesn't do anything against hate during postboard games unlike draw spells which can dig for answers. Don't get me wrong, I love discard dorks too as I have foiled playsets of PImp and Tireless Tribe. It just doesn't fit with my current take on Dredge.
Sure, that's understandable. Well let me know how your testing is going and how you do if you play in any tournaments! I'm currently taking a little time off of Dredge but I'll be back at it before too long. I just need some good inspirational stories.
Just finished building dredge for the second time since I last sold my cards...
I was watching a video of a guy playing dredge and he had out LED and casted a Careful Study. In the vid he asked his opponent for any response. Opponent said no. That's when he cracked the LED.
Is that the proper sequence of resolving the LED on stack to Careful Study?
When I got back into Magic I have been bombarded by all kinds of priority issues. I'm slowly learning not to make same mistakes.
No, you have to hold priority and crack LED in response.
You cannot ask if your opponent would has a response to the Careful Study before you crack the LED.
You go: "Careful Study, retaining priority crack LED for *insert color here* in response. Careful Study on the stack 3 mana floating, do you have a response to my Careful Study?"
The guy in the video should not have been allowed to crack the LED because both players already passed priority which means the Careful Study resolves right then.
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I agree with gibbousm, you have to retain priority in order to activate LED before Careful Study resolves.
Do you have any other questions at this time, Munchyman81? I love talking about this sick archetype and I have been playing it a good amount recently (though I have been on a tiny break for a couple weeks).
Ok thanks I thought as much. I got really confused since the game I believe was taped from I believe a SsG tournament may have been another large event. He did flash back Deep Analysis so it may have been prior to the whole priority ruling change? I dunno. Took a large hiatus from competitive play from 2004 until 2014.
Brought the deck to a 3-1 finish at this month's Legacy FNM which got me 4th place in standing.
Round 1: Enchantress; Turn 2 RIP both games. I had removal for it in game 2 but they had Enlightened Tutor to fetch a backup copy.
0-2
Round 2: UB Mill; What happens when a Mill deck fights a self-mill deck? I get out Iona on Black and overwhelm them with zombies. I went Black over Blue because I saw Reanimate, Unearth, and Haunting Echoes.
2-0
Round 3: Belcher; They fizzled game 1, Belched me out game 2, game 3 they made 8 goblins on turn 1 and I outraced them. It was closer than I'd have liked as I just didn't hit any Bridges which would have ended the game faster.
2-1
Round 4: Lands; Game 1 they had Tabernacle + Glacial Chasm and while I waited there was never a turn where they didn't have Chasm up. Game 2 I made a horde of zombies and a large GGT on turn 2 forcing them to have Chasm. They didn't. Game 3 I made a horde of zombies and a larger GGT forcing them to draw Chasm. They did. I dredged through the rest of my deck getting Ashen Rider out to kill their Chasm and swing with a personal record number of zombie tokens, 17, which matched the size of my Troll.
2-1
6-4 overall.
As you can, apart from the UB Mill deck it was a fairly rough night for me.
Other decks that were there that night were Miracles, BUG, Grixis, Elves, and a Stasis-Restore Balance brew. Other decks that show up often are RUG Delver, Aggro Loam, TES, and D&T.
I've been running the same main deck for a while, 3 Thug, 3 Breakthrough, 3 Putrid Imp, 1 DR, 1 Iona, 1 Darkblast, 4 of everything else.
The sideboard I went with was:
The Lotus Petal I ran because I couldn't figure out a 15th card I wanted to run so I just went, "eh, it can cast me an extra spell on turn 1/2." I brought it in against Enchantress and Belcher hoping to get a bit more speed but never drew it.
Any suggestions on what I should run as the last card?
I'm thinking maybe a second Ashen Rider but I'm honestly not sure what I want in that spot.
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I think I've mentioned several times that I prefer the evoke creatures over Nature's Claims as while I do lose out on them not being Instants, they are much harder to counter which I feel is more important.
I'll think about Pithing Needle though.
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Not to me you haven't, but that is a sensible reason to choose those over Nature's Claim. As a potential bonus, the evoke creatures can give you Bridge from Below zombies.
I actually want to try the evoke guys now. It feels Vintage, haha.
Have you tried some games with the deck just to make sure you really want to buy it? It's always good to get some free testing in with proxies, a friend's deck, or XMage/Cockatrice.
Anyway, Dredge really needs to be able to cast anti-hate cards in games 2 and 3. If your anti hate is Abrupt Decay, for example, you need more mana than you would in game 1. Also, if your sideboard is something like Nature's Claim, a Lotus Petal will allow you to cast that plus an enabler card like Faithless Looting on the same turn.
I know that there are so many reasons not to do this, but please hear me out. What if we had a plain to side in to belcher. We would have to put some cards in the main like simian spirt guide, Gitaxian probe and street raith and most if not all of our side board would have to be devoted to it, but I think that it gives us another angle of attack that we need.
I think that could work against opponents who don't know your plan, sure. What worries me the most about that idea is if your opponent is relying on counterspells and or discard against you on game 2 then they still have a decent chance of disrupting your Belcher strategy.
Besides that, I feel like we'd have a lot of dead cards if we could only bring in 15 to convert our deck. Drawing a bunch of dredge creatures would suck if you're trying to cast Goblin Charbelcher.
I think that could work against opponents who don't know your plan, sure. What worries me the most about that idea is if your opponent is relying on counterspells and or discard against you on game 2 then they still have a decent chance of disrupting your Belcher strategy.
Besides that, I feel like we'd have a lot of dead cards if we could only bring in 15 to convert our deck. Drawing a bunch of dredge creatures would suck if you're trying to cast Goblin Charbelcher.
I think that they will board out the dicard because it's useless against us. Our openents might know we can bord into it but we chould just run the deck back unchanged. Or change it back from belcher to dredge it allowed us to be unpredictable.
That's true, unpredictability is always useful, especially for decks like ours that people usually assume are one trick ponies.
I have gotten screwed by discard spells multiple times but I'm glad you don't have issues with it! Getting your Careful Study or Breakthrough taken by Duress just sucks.
Have you tried some games with the deck just to make sure you really want to buy it? It's always good to get some free testing in with proxies, a friend's deck, or XMage/Cockatrice.
Anyway, Dredge really needs to be able to cast anti-hate cards in games 2 and 3. If your anti hate is Abrupt Decay, for example, you need more mana than you would in game 1. Also, if your sideboard is something like Nature's Claim, a Lotus Petal will allow you to cast that plus an enabler card like Faithless Looting on the same turn.
Thanks I understand now. And yea, I'm not overly competitive and am looking for something cheap to get into legacy. Options are limited but I really appreciate the weirdness in this deck---I also play living end in modern so I have a love of weird graveyard decks
Sure thing! I am also a lover of graveyard and budget decks, so I appreciate your situation. The only comment I have to add to that is this: if you want to play Dredge to its highest potential, you will need the four Lion's Eye Diamond.
I also have a super ghetto budget Reanimator deck that I play which is a lot of fun in casual environments, and the whole deck will cost way less than buying into Dredge. If you want to see the list or talk about ideas, feel free to send me a message!
Went 3-2 in a 24 man tournament yesterday and finished 9th. Here's a quick summary of my matches:
Rd1 2-0 RUG Delver
He had Grafdigger out but I saw no protection from Cabal Therapy so Nature's Claim took care of the hate.
Rd2 1-2 TES
Game 1 he had a turn 1 kill even though I got an early Cabal Therapy hitting Dark Ritual. Game 2 multiple Cabal Therapies won me the game. Game 3 I slowed him down with a couple of Therapies earlier and had 3 lands out with Faithless Looting and another Therapy in the yard. I had a Narcomoeba in my hand and was thinking whether to go off with Looting or casting Narcomoeba and using Therapy to criple his hand further. I chose to Loot and didn't get a Narcomoeba so I passed the turn. He went off that turn and won. In hindsight, I should have went the Therapy route. If there's anything that I learned in this tournament, it's the sheer power of Cabal Therapy and how it wins games.
Rd3 2-1 Sneaky Show
Game 1 I got early pressure with Ichorids and a few zombies and got him down to 9 life when he cast Show and Tell for Griselbrand and I got a 6/6 Troll. He went for Show and Tell again for Griselbrand to get rid of my bridges but I already had enough zombies and Ichorids to win. Game 2 he went for Show and Tell and got Emrakul in play, next game! Game 3 I played Therapy on my first turn and hit Show and Tell. I won the game soon after that.
Rd4 1-2 Junk
Game 1 he didn't have DRS and I won via Flayer. Game 2 I boarded in Nature's Claim and he had Containment Priest and DRS, oops! Game 3 I added Firestorm to my main deck and my opening could go off on the first turn via Looting and LED so I did. I had a Narcomoeba in play and a single Therapy in the yard. I named DRS and saw Nihil Spellbomb, ouch! I lost my yard and the game on his first turn Spellbomb. Should have made sure that the coast is clear before going off.
Rd5 2-1 Infect
Won the die roll. Turn 1 Therapies hitting Glistener Elf won me this round.
Nice work, SHABOOGS! Isn't Cabal Therapy always so much fun?
Anyways, I just wanted to get in touch with you guys who have put work into the primer, especially you SHABOOGS and ajfirecracker. The mods are kindly allowing me a chance to update the primer (if they like my ideas) and I think it would be cool to see some changes since it hasn't changed at all in like three years. My main question for you is this: if I were to reconstruct the primer, how much of your original contributions would you like preserved and in what format? I would like to have a resources section that I could easily include your guys' information in, but if you'd like something more just let me know. I think it will be fun to update this thread together!
Therapy is especially fun when you name the right cards lol
I like the idea of updating the primer. I haven't checked the first post in years hehe. I'm ok with removing original contributions (including my own) if they are already obsolete. Putting the old information in the resource section might work too but I'm thinking we don't want to confuse the new pilots with information that may contradict the updated primer. Let me know your thoughts on how you want to proceed with updating the primer. I'd love to help with this daunting task.
I am planning on doing a good amount of work on this tomorrow and I can show you what I'll have done. Is there any particular topic you'd like to write on? If not, I will gladly cover the basics, which I'm having a lot of fun writing about, and then anyone who has good input on like the strongest decklist going into 2016 we can collaborate on that section.
I know that there are so many reasons not to do this, but please hear me out. What if we had a plain to side in to belcher. We would have to put some cards in the main like simian spirt guide, Gitaxian probe and street raith and most if not all of our side board would have to be devoted to it, but I think that it gives us another angle of attack that we need.
I think it might be possible, but your mainboard would have to be a fair bit different from the *expected* to make the sideboard strategy work.
Considering the majority of opponents play blue counter, and Belcher is pretty weak to that line of play, whereas Dredge isn't, it would sure give us options so long as the mainboard is good enough to beat the majority of opponents in game1.
I'm struggling to see it, given Dredge is already a bit slow compared to most combo decks & Storm as it is. If we compromise the mainboard, we compromise Dredges' biggest asset = winning game1.
Have you got a decklist in mind?
Anyway,
I'm running a pretty standard list;
3 Breakthru, 4 P.imp/Wraith, 3 Icky, 2 Petal & 14 Lands, 1 DR, 4 of most else.
I've been considering running more discard in the side instead lots of antihate, as my previous ANti-hate heavy side has been a bit ineffective against RiP & cage lately I've seen them on the other side of the table.
Nature of the deck I know....
I'm thinking it would be useful to not only drop gravehate and potentially punish them for mulling heavily, but it might be very useful against combo/storm decks that we're not fast enough to combat reliably. I like Unmask for a big turn1.
In the times I've done this in the past I found it useful for getting the most out of Therapy, but pretty ineffective against Brainstorm-style effects, so I haven't really tried it since.
Do any of you play additional discard outside Therapy?
If so, do you play something like Duress and/or Thoughtsieze, or something *free* like Unmask?
I did play Unmask in Manaless Dredge back in the day and I think it would be a lot better in a deck with mana. However, we still have to consider how many black cards we actually have in the deck because if you start exiling Thug, Stinkweed, or Putrid to Unmask you're going to have a hard time dredging or paying for Ichorid. The benefit I see in playing Unmask would be playing it turn one and still having a mana to cast an enabler like Careful Study or Putrid.
I would say try it. I would really like it to be good, it's just the number of extra black cards in hand worries me. See if you can do some testing (not testing you pay for like FNM, if you can help it :P) and let us know how it goes!
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My main suggestion would be to try out Putrid Imp, if you haven't already. I find it a less risky alternative to discarding with Breakthrough, although I run both (currently testing 4 Imps and 2 Breakthrough), and it is potentially reusable.
And if you think I like Putrid Imp, just wait till one of the other Dredge players that also plays Tireless Tribe responds also.
I was watching a video of a guy playing dredge and he had out LED and casted a Careful Study. In the vid he asked his opponent for any response. Opponent said no. That's when he cracked the LED.
Is that the proper sequence of resolving the LED on stack to Careful Study?
When I got back into Magic I have been bombarded by all kinds of priority issues. I'm slowly learning not to make same mistakes.
You cannot ask if your opponent would has a response to the Careful Study before you crack the LED.
You go: "Careful Study, retaining priority crack LED for *insert color here* in response. Careful Study on the stack 3 mana floating, do you have a response to my Careful Study?"
The guy in the video should not have been allowed to crack the LED because both players already passed priority which means the Careful Study resolves right then.
-Anonymous
Do you have any other questions at this time, Munchyman81? I love talking about this sick archetype and I have been playing it a good amount recently (though I have been on a tiny break for a couple weeks).
Round 1: Enchantress; Turn 2 RIP both games. I had removal for it in game 2 but they had Enlightened Tutor to fetch a backup copy.
0-2
Round 2: UB Mill; What happens when a Mill deck fights a self-mill deck? I get out Iona on Black and overwhelm them with zombies. I went Black over Blue because I saw Reanimate, Unearth, and Haunting Echoes.
2-0
Round 3: Belcher; They fizzled game 1, Belched me out game 2, game 3 they made 8 goblins on turn 1 and I outraced them. It was closer than I'd have liked as I just didn't hit any Bridges which would have ended the game faster.
2-1
Round 4: Lands; Game 1 they had Tabernacle + Glacial Chasm and while I waited there was never a turn where they didn't have Chasm up. Game 2 I made a horde of zombies and a large GGT on turn 2 forcing them to have Chasm. They didn't. Game 3 I made a horde of zombies and a larger GGT forcing them to draw Chasm. They did. I dredged through the rest of my deck getting Ashen Rider out to kill their Chasm and swing with a personal record number of zombie tokens, 17, which matched the size of my Troll.
2-1
6-4 overall.
As you can, apart from the UB Mill deck it was a fairly rough night for me.
Other decks that were there that night were Miracles, BUG, Grixis, Elves, and a Stasis-Restore Balance brew. Other decks that show up often are RUG Delver, Aggro Loam, TES, and D&T.
I've been running the same main deck for a while, 3 Thug, 3 Breakthrough, 3 Putrid Imp, 1 DR, 1 Iona, 1 Darkblast, 4 of everything else.
The sideboard I went with was:
3 Firestorm
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Wispmare
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn
1 Ashen Rider
1 Lotus Petal
The Lotus Petal I ran because I couldn't figure out a 15th card I wanted to run so I just went, "eh, it can cast me an extra spell on turn 1/2." I brought it in against Enchantress and Belcher hoping to get a bit more speed but never drew it.
Any suggestions on what I should run as the last card?
I'm thinking maybe a second Ashen Rider but I'm honestly not sure what I want in that spot.
-Anonymous
As for the 15th card, maybe you want a Pithing Needle or two? I really love it against activated hate (Nihil Spellbomb and Deathrite Shaman for example) in particular.
I'll think about Pithing Needle though.
-Anonymous
I actually want to try the evoke guys now. It feels Vintage, haha.
Anyway, Dredge really needs to be able to cast anti-hate cards in games 2 and 3. If your anti hate is Abrupt Decay, for example, you need more mana than you would in game 1. Also, if your sideboard is something like Nature's Claim, a Lotus Petal will allow you to cast that plus an enabler card like Faithless Looting on the same turn.
Besides that, I feel like we'd have a lot of dead cards if we could only bring in 15 to convert our deck. Drawing a bunch of dredge creatures would suck if you're trying to cast Goblin Charbelcher.
I think that they will board out the dicard because it's useless against us. Our openents might know we can bord into it but we chould just run the deck back unchanged. Or change it back from belcher to dredge it allowed us to be unpredictable.
I have gotten screwed by discard spells multiple times but I'm glad you don't have issues with it! Getting your Careful Study or Breakthrough taken by Duress just sucks.
Thanks I understand now. And yea, I'm not overly competitive and am looking for something cheap to get into legacy. Options are limited but I really appreciate the weirdness in this deck---I also play living end in modern so I have a love of weird graveyard decks
I also have a super ghetto budget Reanimator deck that I play which is a lot of fun in casual environments, and the whole deck will cost way less than buying into Dredge. If you want to see the list or talk about ideas, feel free to send me a message!
Rd1 2-0 RUG Delver
He had Grafdigger out but I saw no protection from Cabal Therapy so Nature's Claim took care of the hate.
Rd2 1-2 TES
Game 1 he had a turn 1 kill even though I got an early Cabal Therapy hitting Dark Ritual. Game 2 multiple Cabal Therapies won me the game. Game 3 I slowed him down with a couple of Therapies earlier and had 3 lands out with Faithless Looting and another Therapy in the yard. I had a Narcomoeba in my hand and was thinking whether to go off with Looting or casting Narcomoeba and using Therapy to criple his hand further. I chose to Loot and didn't get a Narcomoeba so I passed the turn. He went off that turn and won. In hindsight, I should have went the Therapy route. If there's anything that I learned in this tournament, it's the sheer power of Cabal Therapy and how it wins games.
Rd3 2-1 Sneaky Show
Game 1 I got early pressure with Ichorids and a few zombies and got him down to 9 life when he cast Show and Tell for Griselbrand and I got a 6/6 Troll. He went for Show and Tell again for Griselbrand to get rid of my bridges but I already had enough zombies and Ichorids to win. Game 2 he went for Show and Tell and got Emrakul in play, next game! Game 3 I played Therapy on my first turn and hit Show and Tell. I won the game soon after that.
Rd4 1-2 Junk
Game 1 he didn't have DRS and I won via Flayer. Game 2 I boarded in Nature's Claim and he had Containment Priest and DRS, oops! Game 3 I added Firestorm to my main deck and my opening could go off on the first turn via Looting and LED so I did. I had a Narcomoeba in play and a single Therapy in the yard. I named DRS and saw Nihil Spellbomb, ouch! I lost my yard and the game on his first turn Spellbomb. Should have made sure that the coast is clear before going off.
Rd5 2-1 Infect
Won the die roll. Turn 1 Therapies hitting Glistener Elf won me this round.
Anyways, I just wanted to get in touch with you guys who have put work into the primer, especially you SHABOOGS and ajfirecracker. The mods are kindly allowing me a chance to update the primer (if they like my ideas) and I think it would be cool to see some changes since it hasn't changed at all in like three years. My main question for you is this: if I were to reconstruct the primer, how much of your original contributions would you like preserved and in what format? I would like to have a resources section that I could easily include your guys' information in, but if you'd like something more just let me know. I think it will be fun to update this thread together!
I like the idea of updating the primer. I haven't checked the first post in years hehe. I'm ok with removing original contributions (including my own) if they are already obsolete. Putting the old information in the resource section might work too but I'm thinking we don't want to confuse the new pilots with information that may contradict the updated primer. Let me know your thoughts on how you want to proceed with updating the primer. I'd love to help with this daunting task.
I am planning on doing a good amount of work on this tomorrow and I can show you what I'll have done. Is there any particular topic you'd like to write on? If not, I will gladly cover the basics, which I'm having a lot of fun writing about, and then anyone who has good input on like the strongest decklist going into 2016 we can collaborate on that section.
I think it might be possible, but your mainboard would have to be a fair bit different from the *expected* to make the sideboard strategy work.
Considering the majority of opponents play blue counter, and Belcher is pretty weak to that line of play, whereas Dredge isn't, it would sure give us options so long as the mainboard is good enough to beat the majority of opponents in game1.
I'm struggling to see it, given Dredge is already a bit slow compared to most combo decks & Storm as it is. If we compromise the mainboard, we compromise Dredges' biggest asset = winning game1.
Have you got a decklist in mind?
=================================================================================================================================
Anyway,
I'm running a pretty standard list;
3 Breakthru, 4 P.imp/Wraith, 3 Icky, 2 Petal & 14 Lands, 1 DR, 4 of most else.
I've been considering running more discard in the side instead lots of antihate, as my previous ANti-hate heavy side has been a bit ineffective against RiP & cage lately I've seen them on the other side of the table.
Nature of the deck I know....
I'm thinking it would be useful to not only drop gravehate and potentially punish them for mulling heavily, but it might be very useful against combo/storm decks that we're not fast enough to combat reliably. I like Unmask for a big turn1.
In the times I've done this in the past I found it useful for getting the most out of Therapy, but pretty ineffective against Brainstorm-style effects, so I haven't really tried it since.
Do any of you play additional discard outside Therapy?
If so, do you play something like Duress and/or Thoughtsieze, or something *free* like Unmask?
I would say try it. I would really like it to be good, it's just the number of extra black cards in hand worries me. See if you can do some testing (not testing you pay for like FNM, if you can help it :P) and let us know how it goes!