LED speeds up the deck, but in the process dumps all of our resources into the graveyard.
.....
This makes it tough to win the race even against Rest In Peace....
Obviously I've taken you out of context, but I feel LED enabling a T1 win (or a large amount of zombies on T1) is very important to think about.
I just think that going all-in on this plan in a sideboard game isn't what I want to do. I acknowledge that this is the minority opinion (possibly a minority of one) and don't expect to be agreed with. I feel somewhat ashamed about even bringing it up, but somebody asked, and it's not like I have any actual work to do in my workplace.
LED Dredge has had some pretty good results in the past two months, so it stands to reason that anyone looking to experience similar success should just be playing one of those lists instead of my speculative "Tireless Tribe is great" pile.
I played Manaless LED and Traditionnal Dredge a lot this year.
And Traditionnal is my choice right now
Game 1 LED is the fastest granted, but I found that the speed was not needed exept against other combo deck,
wich may race us anyway with LED.
I always found siboarded game with LED akward. I side out LED to side in 2x Rainbows land + anti hate
G2-3 are simplier with 15 lands in the deck and it opens sideboard slots.
And I like dredging slowly with a tribe/imp in play until hate is taken care off and then explose with a colliseum/breakthrought/careful study.
Tournament results seem to disagree with us though.
Guys, transformational sideboards are bad, don't do it.
@LED vs LEDless lists
I play LED version, and it has been pretty good. If I were to play LEDless, in a Deathrite Shaman era, I'd START the deck with 4 Firestorm maindeck, which doubles in Discard Outlet + Removal.
It's basically Quadlazer, but I swapped Putrid Imps for Street Wraith, and 1 Breakthrough for an extra land. Street Wraith has been awesome. It's black for Ichorid fodder, doesn't require mana, and can mess up with Deathrite Shaman. The only drawback is that the lack of Putrid Imp might make you go for DDD plan on the draw against some matches.
Hey guys. I'm new to LED Dredge. I just switched over from Manaless. I'm wondering why I don't see any LED lists that run counter in the sideboard. I don't think it would be a bad idea against combo decks to play a counter spell. Why isn't it a good idea to sneak in a couple of Spell Pierce against decks that are faster than us? Or maybe Mindbreak Trap for storm decks...
Why isn't it a good idea to sneak in a couple of Spell Pierce against decks that are faster than us? Or maybe Mindbreak Trap for storm decks...
RE: Pierce = we commonly use up all our mana on our turn (we don't actually run ANY instants). Our manabase is small and not entirely necessary to win, and is vulnerable to Land Destruction.
I have noticed in the past few Dredge lists that they are running 13+ lands, why is this? did I miss something revolutionary? also 2 lands in the sideboard confuses me! I have switched to mana confluence over city of brass due to rishadan port being a thing. and I am debating on cutting firestorm because Elesh Norn covers problem creatures pretty early, still succumbs to karakas but kills off creatures first, thoughts?
One of my friends said that I should pick up treasure cruise in general, but to get it for dredge, once we start filling the graveyard, there becomes PLENTY of spells we can delve with, - milled breakthrough, careful study, looting if we dont have LED in play, LED, other lands, golgari thug if we arent feeding it to ichorids. I was wondering about the Taigam's Scheming, as it digs 5 deep, but it is a two drop.
I wondered why people ran Abrupt Decay in our sideboards, I understand how it is good and what it works against, what I didnt get was casting a TWO drop in this deck.
The 13+ lands lists couldn't exist before of the Mana Confluence print. Before, the only option was either Undiscovered Paradise or Tarnished Citadel and both were....meh. (Of course I always prefer the traditional 12 lands LED version with DRs ) Usually, the extra lands in Sb are because nowadays Abrupt Decay is a viable option for antihate (before we had just Chain of Vapor/Nature's Claim), because it is uncounterable and destroys every hate piece that bothers us. RiP most notably, while dodgging cards like counterbalance or FoW. However, is very difficult to cast a BG spell with just 12 lands (Actually 8 since Collisseums are irrelevant), thus the extra SB lands.
I actually run only 3 Citadels, 14 lands in the main (total) with a few more in the side simply to support Abrupt Decay better.
Hey everybody. New to posting on this forum but i have played Dredge, both LED and without(before i could afford them), for about a year. I want to take my deck to a SCG open event in October and wanted to get my deck checked out beforehand. Let me know what you guys think could be improved.
IF i do not run abrupt decay should i have 4 firestorms SB? also i run FKZ and FotH maindeck with 3 DRs, is that bad? I usually hit one or the other win con, and almost always have a DR in the yard
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So two Opalescence and a Humility walk into a bar, I forget the rest of the joke but your sanctioned judge is a scrub.
I wouldn't suggest playing Dredge without Cabal Therapy. It's an awesome way to kill your own dudes to make zombies, disrupt your opponent's hand, clear the way for Dread Return, or in a pinch, get one of your dredgers in the yard. There's nothing better than your opponent casting Stoneforge Mystic and searching for Batterskull just to have you Therapy it the very next turn. You're really limiting yourself and slowing down your deck by not playing Therapy. I like having discard so much, that I sometimes side in Thoughtseize against certain decks. Having a turn 1 discard card to help fight graveyard hate or pesky cards is pretty awesome.
chaosjace, I play 4x Firestorm in my sideboard and like them a lot. I don't run Abrupt Decay just because of it's 2 CMC, though. The two cards really do two very different things. Firestorm is for creature removal and aids in discarding your hand, and Abrupt Decay is used pretty much as an uncounterable Nature's Claim. I prefer the 4x Nature's Claim, 1x Ray of Revelation and 1x Ancient Grudge route. I only run one Flame-Kin Zealot and one Dread Return main, and don't really bother with Flayer of the Hatebound. Your deck will be fast enough with Lion's Eye Diamond, in my opinion. I win most of my games without FKZ. I just reanimate Ichorids, and beat with Zombie tokens. I pretty much play Quadlazer minus one Putrid Imp and one Breakthrough to make room for the FKZ/DR combo.
AH I am running no Putrid imps and 4 breakthroughs, resolving that with a LED out is basically half your deck, or more, or game. But i play more of an All In strategy. Maybe i should rethink that if I want to go to tournaments.
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So two Opalescence and a Humility walk into a bar, I forget the rest of the joke but your sanctioned judge is a scrub.
Putrid Imp is pretty important to use as a discard outlet to get dredgers, Ichorids, and Bridges into the graveyard. If you play Putrid Imp turn one, you can discard a dredger at the end of your opponent's turn, dredge for your draw step, then play a draw spell to dredge some more. I like using him, but it really is personal preference, I guess.
Yea I feel pretty safe with 16 discard outlets MD (4 Careful Study, Faithless looting, breakthrough)((at least in my deck)) and turn one land LED careful study or breakthrough, crack LED in response, for maximum gotta go fast. Turn one Imp pass seems slow, but if they disrupt me the imp would save me for a turn at least...
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So two Opalescence and a Humility walk into a bar, I forget the rest of the joke but your sanctioned judge is a scrub.
Okay, so I played my first ever (paper) legacy event at an SCG open this past weekend. I had a decent 3-1 start but had to strangely drop because our group had to head home. Anyways, I swear that people are still building this deck in an old-fashioned way and nobody bothers to make major changes. I have a new list with some key inclusions to add consistency and speed and I've been loving it, but I still want some imput on it.
1. 4 lotus petals: We want to be fast. These make it harder to grind, but help you go off on t1 or 2 very very consistently. I cut the land count down a bit, so they are going to be counted as "lands" for now.
2. Fetchland package: If we mill over our fetch targets, then we're already winning. This cuts down on the life loss from ping lands and gives some thinning before you dredge, which helps. Mostly, it has synergy with our next major inclusion.
3. 4 brainstorm: Why is nobody playing this card?? Not only does it fix our slew of poor openers, but it has crazy synergy with dredge. It lets you put awkward bridges, narcos, etc on top of your library and is an instant, letting you stack it on top of another spell before you crack led. I'm baffled as to why this was never a thing.
4. No DR package. Flame-kin, elesh norn, griselbrand, etc are all win-more. The hard part about dredge is getting off the ground, not winning when you're already ahead, except for a few niche cases (iona for burn, elesh for elves)
Here's where I've got my list currently, I'd love some feedback. Take some openers with it, it feels good.
2. Fetchland package: If we mill over our fetch targets, then we're already winning. This cuts down on the life loss from ping lands and gives some thinning before you dredge, which helps. Mostly, it has synergy with our next major inclusion.
3. 4 brainstorm: Why is nobody playing this card?? Not only does it fix our slew of poor openers, but it has crazy synergy with dredge. It lets you put awkward bridges, narcos, etc on top of your library and is an instant, letting you stack it on top of another spell before you crack led. I'm baffled as to why this was never a thing.
Interesting...
Rainbow lands are useful because we have so many colours to consider > fetchlands hurts that significantly and doesn't help make us anymore resilient to wasteland.
Brainstorm isn't that great. I tried it in dredge for a while but I found it pretty sub-par. With fetches it's awesome, but I'm not sure this is the deck for either.
I only can say if you are planning on winning on turn 2 then the one or two life loss from non fetches becomes irrelevant you could play either way and neither is necesarily better, only fetches can be stifled if they have it
I enjoy the deck because rainbow lands let you play any one drop you want from any color, (Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor and Firestorm mainly SB)
I do want to play brainstorm because of the DRAW THREE CARDS effect for one, like you said with drawing moebas and bridges, you can put them back, and you can DREDGE THREE TIMES with it also, supposedly "next level dredge" used them, but they supposedly dont work well in traditional, haven't gotten a clear answer to that. you can even draw two dredge once, draw one dredge twice, draw three and fix your next turn careful study/looting/breakthrough if you had two dredgers in hand, Brainstorm just seems too versatile to NOT include. I need more research on this topic though.
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So two Opalescence and a Humility walk into a bar, I forget the rest of the joke but your sanctioned judge is a scrub.
I'm debating between running Leyline of the Void or Thoughtseize in my sideboard for the GP and other tourneys near that timeframe. Thoughtseize helps get rid of stuff before they become a problem, but Leyline can completely shut down other graveyard decks and make Goyfs/Snapcasters less effective. I guess it's a meta call. Which would you guys pick? Right now, I look kind of like this...
Im around Richmond area,
Also that looks like my sideboard currently, only i have DRs main, and Iona and ashen rider SB, I think the leylines are important since Manaless just beat traditional dredge in the last open and reanimator got 2nd place with no graveyard hate in sight from any deck. http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8244&d=247419&f=LE
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So two Opalescence and a Humility walk into a bar, I forget the rest of the joke but your sanctioned judge is a scrub.
I do want to play brainstorm because of the DRAW THREE CARDS effect for one, like you said with drawing moebas and bridges, you can put them back, and you can DREDGE THREE TIMES with it.
Sure that's all true, but it's not really like it's night & day better than the blue draw spells we're already running, apart from being instant.
But is it being instant speed really necessary for us anyway? I don't think it's a big concern, but the main difference is why I don't run the 'storm.
Comparing them; Brainstorm, Faithless Looting, Breakthrough & Careful Study All of them enable us to dredge the next turn by dropping something in the yard > apart from Brainstorm.
So I guess it's up to you guys and gals to test it out and see how you do with it. For me it was an easy cut, but I do see the potential for tricks at instant speed with extraction/DRS etc.
How did Manaless beat LED? I would think that it favors LED a lot. It's faster, discard spells, and removal to kill your own guys to remove their Bridges. But I guess any deck can win with a good draw and a bad draw from the opponent. Is it up on YouTube?
UG Infect
Modern
UG Infect
GW Infect
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
B Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Obviously I've taken you out of context, but I feel LED enabling a T1 win (or a large amount of zombies on T1) is very important to think about.
I just think that going all-in on this plan in a sideboard game isn't what I want to do. I acknowledge that this is the minority opinion (possibly a minority of one) and don't expect to be agreed with. I feel somewhat ashamed about even bringing it up, but somebody asked, and it's not like I have any actual work to do in my workplace.
LED Dredge has had some pretty good results in the past two months, so it stands to reason that anyone looking to experience similar success should just be playing one of those lists instead of my speculative "Tireless Tribe is great" pile.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
We are a "minority of two".
I played Manaless LED and Traditionnal Dredge a lot this year.
And Traditionnal is my choice right now
Game 1 LED is the fastest granted, but I found that the speed was not needed exept against other combo deck,
wich may race us anyway with LED.
I always found siboarded game with LED akward. I side out LED to side in 2x Rainbows land + anti hate
G2-3 are simplier with 15 lands in the deck and it opens sideboard slots.
And I like dredging slowly with a tribe/imp in play until hate is taken care off and then explose with a colliseum/breakthrought/careful study.
Tournament results seem to disagree with us though.
My meta has a lot of fair deck and few combo.
@LED vs LEDless lists
I play LED version, and it has been pretty good. If I were to play LEDless, in a Deathrite Shaman era, I'd START the deck with 4 Firestorm maindeck, which doubles in Discard Outlet + Removal.
Something like this:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Brass
Dredgers [12]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
Draw Spells [11]
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Firestorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
Creatures [10]
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Nature's Claim
3 Unmask (Thoughtseize?)
2 Wispmare
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ancient Grudge
As for my Dredge list, I play the following:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
Dredgers [12]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
Creatures [12]
4 Ichorid
4 Street Wraith
4 Narcomoeba
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
Good Stuff [12]
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
2 Wispmare
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 City of Brass
It's basically Quadlazer, but I swapped Putrid Imps for Street Wraith, and 1 Breakthrough for an extra land. Street Wraith has been awesome. It's black for Ichorid fodder, doesn't require mana, and can mess up with Deathrite Shaman. The only drawback is that the lack of Putrid Imp might make you go for DDD plan on the draw against some matches.
UG Infect
Modern
UG Infect
GW Infect
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
B Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
RE: Pierce = we commonly use up all our mana on our turn (we don't actually run ANY instants). Our manabase is small and not entirely necessary to win, and is vulnerable to Land Destruction.
RE: Mindbreak Trap : your personal choice.
I wondered why people ran Abrupt Decay in our sideboards, I understand how it is good and what it works against, what I didnt get was casting a TWO drop in this deck.
I will need to do more testing with firestorm then, I have my main deck, but still forever sideboard tweaking right now it is sitting at
3x Chain of Vapor
3x Nature's Claim
2x Firestorm
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Elesh Norn
1x Iona, Shield of Imeria
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Ashen Rider
I actually run only 3 Citadels, 14 lands in the main (total) with a few more in the side simply to support Abrupt Decay better.
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Mana Confluence
Spells [14]
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
Discard Outlet [8]
4 Putrid Imp
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed imp
3 Golgari Thug
Dread Return Targets [2]
1 Griselbrand
1 Flame-kin Zealot
Core [11]
4 Narcomeoba
4 Bridge From Below
3 Ichorid
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Firestorm
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Mana Confluence
Yup.
I don't think I've ever sided it out. Like ever. It's useful to discard your own hand too....
chaosjace, I play 4x Firestorm in my sideboard and like them a lot. I don't run Abrupt Decay just because of it's 2 CMC, though. The two cards really do two very different things. Firestorm is for creature removal and aids in discarding your hand, and Abrupt Decay is used pretty much as an uncounterable Nature's Claim. I prefer the 4x Nature's Claim, 1x Ray of Revelation and 1x Ancient Grudge route. I only run one Flame-Kin Zealot and one Dread Return main, and don't really bother with Flayer of the Hatebound. Your deck will be fast enough with Lion's Eye Diamond, in my opinion. I win most of my games without FKZ. I just reanimate Ichorids, and beat with Zombie tokens. I pretty much play Quadlazer minus one Putrid Imp and one Breakthrough to make room for the FKZ/DR combo.
My sideboard looks like this:
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Ray of Revelation
4x Nature's Claim
4x Firestorm
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Dread Return
3x Thoughtseize
UG Infect
Modern
UG Infect
GW Infect
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
B Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
UG Infect
Modern
UG Infect
GW Infect
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
B Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
1. 4 lotus petals: We want to be fast. These make it harder to grind, but help you go off on t1 or 2 very very consistently. I cut the land count down a bit, so they are going to be counted as "lands" for now.
2. Fetchland package: If we mill over our fetch targets, then we're already winning. This cuts down on the life loss from ping lands and gives some thinning before you dredge, which helps. Mostly, it has synergy with our next major inclusion.
3. 4 brainstorm: Why is nobody playing this card?? Not only does it fix our slew of poor openers, but it has crazy synergy with dredge. It lets you put awkward bridges, narcos, etc on top of your library and is an instant, letting you stack it on top of another spell before you crack led. I'm baffled as to why this was never a thing.
4. No DR package. Flame-kin, elesh norn, griselbrand, etc are all win-more. The hard part about dredge is getting off the ground, not winning when you're already ahead, except for a few niche cases (iona for burn, elesh for elves)
Here's where I've got my list currently, I'd love some feedback. Take some openers with it, it feels good.
4x brainstorm
4x breakthrough
4x bridge from below
4x cabal therapy
3x careful study
4x cephalid coliseum
4x faithless looting
4x golgari grave-troll
3x golgari thug
3x ichorid
4x lion's eye diamond
4x lotus petal
1x misty rainforest
4x narcomoeba
4x scalding tarn
4x stinkweed imp
1x underground sea
1x volcanic island
Interesting...
Rainbow lands are useful because we have so many colours to consider > fetchlands hurts that significantly and doesn't help make us anymore resilient to wasteland.
Brainstorm isn't that great. I tried it in dredge for a while but I found it pretty sub-par. With fetches it's awesome, but I'm not sure this is the deck for either.
I enjoy the deck because rainbow lands let you play any one drop you want from any color, (Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor and Firestorm mainly SB)
I do want to play brainstorm because of the DRAW THREE CARDS effect for one, like you said with drawing moebas and bridges, you can put them back, and you can DREDGE THREE TIMES with it also, supposedly "next level dredge" used them, but they supposedly dont work well in traditional, haven't gotten a clear answer to that. you can even draw two dredge once, draw one dredge twice, draw three and fix your next turn careful study/looting/breakthrough if you had two dredgers in hand, Brainstorm just seems too versatile to NOT include. I need more research on this topic though.
4x Nature's Claim
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Dread Return
4x Firestorm
2x Chain of Vapor
3x Leyline of the Void
Chaos, I'm also in Virginia. I don't suppose you play in the Hampton Roads area?
UG Infect
Modern
UG Infect
GW Infect
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
B Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Also that looks like my sideboard currently, only i have DRs main, and Iona and ashen rider SB, I think the leylines are important since Manaless just beat traditional dredge in the last open and reanimator got 2nd place with no graveyard hate in sight from any deck.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8244&d=247419&f=LE
Sure that's all true, but it's not really like it's night & day better than the blue draw spells we're already running, apart from being instant.
But is it being instant speed really necessary for us anyway? I don't think it's a big concern, but the main difference is why I don't run the 'storm.
Comparing them;
Brainstorm, Faithless Looting, Breakthrough & Careful Study
All of them enable us to dredge the next turn by dropping something in the yard > apart from Brainstorm.
So I guess it's up to you guys and gals to test it out and see how you do with it. For me it was an easy cut, but I do see the potential for tricks at instant speed with extraction/DRS etc.
UG Infect
Modern
UG Infect
GW Infect
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
B Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon