mateml's list has been fine-tuned over the last several months for his particular metagame. He doesn't face many CB decks and doesn't feel the need to address them with maindeck bounce. The gameplan against other stuff is to simply win before they can hurt you. From looking at his results, it appears to work out well for him. The second Ad Nauseam can only deal you damage. It makes flips at 5 or less life far more uncertain than they should be. If it gets discarded you can still win by using Infernal Tutor -> Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor->IGG, or IGG -> Ad Nauseam if you need additional storm.
On a more streamlined list I think addressing Counterbalance is essential; do you favor the Doomsday engine still?
Yes. When I play lists that run both Ad Nauseam and Doomsday I find that Ad Naueam isn't often very useful to me. It's good enough to include because of the byes it gives you when you face something like Eva Green, but it's completely worthless most of the time against Threshold and similar decks (where I most often win with Doomsday or Infernal Tutor -> IGG).
Yes. When I play lists that run both Ad Nauseam and Doomsday I find that Ad Naueam isn't often very useful to me. It's good enough to include because of the byes it gives you when you face something like Eva Green, but it's completely worthless most of the time against Threshold and similar decks (where I most often win with Doomsday or Infernal Tutor -> IGG).
Do you mind sharing your list? I would be interested to see a list a bit more resistant to thresh.
Hey guys, I've decided to pick this deck up for an upcoming tourney. I'm wondering if anyone can enlighten me as to a few machanics of playing this deck.
1. What are the SB plans vs some popular decks, and what can be taken out to put in hate.
2. How does Ill-Gotten Gains" target="blank">Ill-Gotten Gains work? I've read it a few times, and it seems like I'm missing something here.
Though my list is more TESish versus FLTish, I figured it'd be fine to post:
This is TES and not ANT. The land config is a dead give away. There is a TES thread around here if you look for it. The decks are similar but with different strengths. I believe ANT's focus is consistency while TES focuses on speed.
The CounterTop matchup is highly variable (heavily dependant upon the playskill of each participant, the exact decklists, sideboard strategies, and how quickly each player recognizes what the other is playing). It's certainly one of the most difficult in general, however.
I've found UBr lists running 8 red blasts and LED/Infernal Tutor in the sideboard to have a rather positive matchup against CounterTop decks in general. Games 2/3 can get less favorable depending on what the opponent brings in and how well they play (Blue Blasts and Gaddok Teeg are sort of annoying). I'm currently testing a UBr list, running LED maindeck, that has a decent matchup vs. Counterbalance but my testing is not complete yet so I won't bother dragging on about it.
If you prepare for CounterTop strategies then you'll have at least a fighting chance. If you don't, then you're probably going to lose rounds to it.
Hey I'm new to the forums, but I just wanted to bring up a problem with this deck under the M10 rules changes. From the article on the mothership:
Mana pools now empty at the end of each step and phase
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this means that you can no longer Mystical Tutor for Ad Nauseum, crack LED in your upkeep and play Ad Nauseum during your draw step. I'm not sure what effect this will have on the deck's power level, but it seems relevant.
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this means that you can no longer Mystical Tutor for Ad Nauseum, crack LED in your upkeep and play Ad Nauseum during your draw step. I'm not sure what effect this will have on the deck's power level, but it seems relevant.
You understand it correctly.
It neutered a very powerful play with this deck. I'm sure it won't totally alter the deck's power level or something absurd like that, but it definitely makes the deck weaker.
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though on the other hand the removal of mana burn seems to make this deck much, much, much more powerful. Or at the very least, alot more resilient to things such as Orim's Chant and Silence
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though on the other hand the removal of mana burn seems to make this deck much, much, much more powerful. Or at the very least, alot more resilient to things such as Orim's Chant and Silence
You won't burn after you play out your hand of Ritual effects and the like. Unfortunately at that point you have to rebuild your hand. I really think the deck lost a lot more than it gained...
I'm currently building this as my first foray into legacy (only two underground seas and chant to go) and I was wondering if Silence would be ok to run instead of Orim's Chant. The place I buy from has silence for cheap because he has like 20 from trade-is.
Is the kicker on chant really relevant for this deck?
The kicker on orim's chant is worthless you want it for the silence-esque effect so you are free to combo out. I'd say get silences if they're there for cheap (under $10 is cheap because it goes for $10 right now)
When meddling mage names tendrils you have to rely on getting a chain of vapor effect to bounce it then win meddling mage shouldn't be a problem if you combo out with ad nauseam resolving because you will draw a bounce effect unless you are very unlucky
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Wow. I just bought a set from my friend for $10 total. 75% off, thnx lol
The other thing is, on what turn do you usually want to try combo off? I usually get a consistent turn 3-4, but that is kind of slowed with the new mana-floating rules, right?
Wow. I just bought a set from my friend for $10 total. 75% off, thnx lol
The other thing is, on what turn do you usually want to try combo off? I usually get a consistent turn 3-4, but that is kind of slowed with the new mana-floating rules, right?
Correct, although the proper turn to go for it really depends on the deck your opponent is playing and your build. Ponder builds tend to go off on turns 2-3 consistently, 4 at the latest. If your playing a slower Top build I find things go off a bit later 3-4 consistently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogleafs View Post
For this deck, if an opponent names tendrils for their meddling mage does that mean the storm combo can't be played?
I am wondering what you are running in your SB - I play in an area with an almost mono-U meta and I have a hard time beating the Fish decks. Others I can usually wait till I get chant/silence and go off, but I can't take the hits from creatures and counters.
I once played against a guy who I thought at first was playing ANT but said that no it was TES (The Epic Storm). But as far as I could tell, his combo still used Ad Nauseam + Tendrils of Agony. What's the difference between these two decks?
@dyzzy: I think the difference is that TES is 5 color and always runs burning wish although they include ad nauseum because of it's raw draw power. ANT, on the other hand, is usually just UBw sometimes has red for burning wish but it usually doesn't because it makes the mana base less stable.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
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...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
I'd say chat/silence, duress, and REB/pyroblast (if you run red) are the best way to combat control with this deck. Pact of Negation also helps if you run it to get your ad nauseam in there other than that I don't really know.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
What is everyone's opinion on running Infernal Contract or Cruel Bargain in conjunction with Doomsday, as an alternative to Meditate to alleviate the need for U in the combo. After several games, I've found myself in situations where I can combo off, but am just short the 1 U. This is obviously Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual based, but it has happened 13 times in my first 50 games playing the deck. 26% is often enough to me to warrant the inclusion, but I'm curious why I see all lists just using Meditate. I must be missing something.
edit: For clarity, I'm proposing running both as singletons, not one over the other.
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T2: Solar Flare
Modern: Jund
T1: Remora Gush
MTGS Legacy Tournament #7 2nd
2009 NY States Top 8, 2010 NY States 2nd, 2011 NY States 2nd
NYSE V Top 8, NYSE X Top 4, NYSE XVIII Top 4
Blue Bell X Top 4
Pro Tour: Philadelphia Day 2
NEV 4 1st, NEV 6 2nd, NEV 7 Top 4, NEV 9 Top 8, NEV 11 Top 8, NEV 13 Top 8
I think it can work both ways. It can either be really good or really bad. As you said it solves the problem of lacking but for the possibility of losing too much life and still not being able to finish the storm. Then losing the game on the next turn. If it worked for you then keep it. It seems like it can definitely alter your outcome in comparison to a regular ANT deck.
On a more streamlined list I think addressing Counterbalance is essential; do you favor the Doomsday engine still?
Thanks to [High~Light Studios]
Do you mind sharing your list? I would be interested to see a list a bit more resistant to thresh.
Thanks to [High~Light Studios]
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mystical Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
3 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tranquility
1 Wipe Away
4 Xantid Swarm
My SB seems potentially shaky, advice would be appreciated.
My Trade Thread
1. What are the SB plans vs some popular decks, and what can be taken out to put in hate.
2. How does Ill-Gotten Gains" target="blank">Ill-Gotten Gains work? I've read it a few times, and it seems like I'm missing something here.
Thanks!
Legacy: Stax / Black Tendrils / Pox / FEB
I wrote this post a long time ago. It was the dopest post I ever wrote... in 94.
The CounterTop matchup is highly variable (heavily dependant upon the playskill of each participant, the exact decklists, sideboard strategies, and how quickly each player recognizes what the other is playing). It's certainly one of the most difficult in general, however.
I've found UBr lists running 8 red blasts and LED/Infernal Tutor in the sideboard to have a rather positive matchup against CounterTop decks in general. Games 2/3 can get less favorable depending on what the opponent brings in and how well they play (Blue Blasts and Gaddok Teeg are sort of annoying). I'm currently testing a UBr list, running LED maindeck, that has a decent matchup vs. Counterbalance but my testing is not complete yet so I won't bother dragging on about it.
If you prepare for CounterTop strategies then you'll have at least a fighting chance. If you don't, then you're probably going to lose rounds to it.
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this means that you can no longer Mystical Tutor for Ad Nauseum, crack LED in your upkeep and play Ad Nauseum during your draw step. I'm not sure what effect this will have on the deck's power level, but it seems relevant.
You understand it correctly.
It neutered a very powerful play with this deck. I'm sure it won't totally alter the deck's power level or something absurd like that, but it definitely makes the deck weaker.
Read my Constructed column on Star City, Thirst for Knowledge!
View my MTGS-era TFK articles here!
You won't burn after you play out your hand of Ritual effects and the like. Unfortunately at that point you have to rebuild your hand. I really think the deck lost a lot more than it gained...
Thanks to [High~Light Studios]
Is the kicker on chant really relevant for this deck?
When meddling mage names tendrils you have to rely on getting a chain of vapor effect to bounce it then win meddling mage shouldn't be a problem if you combo out with ad nauseam resolving because you will draw a bounce effect unless you are very unlucky
Currently Playing:
Retired
The other thing is, on what turn do you usually want to try combo off? I usually get a consistent turn 3-4, but that is kind of slowed with the new mana-floating rules, right?
Correct, although the proper turn to go for it really depends on the deck your opponent is playing and your build. Ponder builds tend to go off on turns 2-3 consistently, 4 at the latest. If your playing a slower Top build I find things go off a bit later 3-4 consistently.
Thanks to [High~Light Studios]
So how can this deck win without the tendrils?
Current SB:
2 Angel's Grace
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Propaganda
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
ゆっくりしていってね!!!
Currently Playing:
Retired
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
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Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
Currently Playing:
Retired
edit: For clarity, I'm proposing running both as singletons, not one over the other.
Modern: Jund
T1: Remora Gush
MTGS Legacy Tournament #7 2nd
NYSE V Top 8, NYSE X Top 4, NYSE XVIII Top 4
Blue Bell X Top 4
Pro Tour: Philadelphia Day 2
NEV 4 1st, NEV 6 2nd, NEV 7 Top 4, NEV 9 Top 8, NEV 11 Top 8, NEV 13 Top 8