I am not saying it will be a chase rare, but as a Zoo player, I will definitely try "Legion's Initiative" to see if it's enough to push the deck to playable again. It does exactly what I need to get past Terminus and Wrath Effects. Or even a pesky Swords to Plowshares.
It'd have been significantly better if it pumped Red and Green creatures instead of Red and White, but the secondary effect is why I'd try it. Being a pessimist, I have a feeling it will be difficult to fit into Zoo while maintaining a high threat density thus making the deck too slow, but again, I'm willing to try it. And frankly, I haven't had the opportunity to try anything from new sets in Zoo for quite some time so at least there's that.
For now I'm cautiously optimistic, which is better than how I usually feel regarding improvements to Zoo. Given the trend though it probably is not good enough.
Edit: I guess since I don't follow Standard and just read people's comments and it seems it might be worth something for Standard Aggro decks. And here I was hoping to pick up a playset for < $5 and that it would be a bulk Mythic. So question, what do you think it will settle at? That'll help me decide to preorder or just wait it out.
Also sounds like I could just run Ghostway (didn't know it existed) in the sideboard >_>. I was excited at first, but now rescind that optimism and am going to "wait and see" :(.
I believe it's too slow. You cast it and can use its ability, or you cast it and have to wait to use it's ability, and the first one is the most opportune time, while the later gives the opponent to respond or time correctly. Not only that, but you are weakening the deck to accommodate it's inclusion, which slows the deck down overall by including 3-4 copies of it just to make sure you see it. Something like this needs to be included on an actual creature, but then the CMC would be higher.
You could still try it, if I think this is the conclusion you will come to. I want to try it in my Walking Dead deck, but what throws me off is the threat density slows.
I believe it's too slow. You cast it and can use its ability, or you cast it and have to wait to use it's ability, and the first one is the most opportune time, while the later gives the opponent to respond or time correctly. Not only that, but you are weakening the deck to accommodate it's inclusion, which slows the deck down overall by including 3-4 copies of it just to make sure you see it. Something like this needs to be included on an actual creature, but then the CMC would be higher.
You could still try it, if I think this is the conclusion you will come to. I want to try it in my Walking Dead deck, but what throws me off is the threat density slows.
Agreed. I even mentioned the lowering of threat density in my initial speculation. With that said, we're discussing in the Zoo thread and a good point that was brought up was that if you play it earlier (turn 2), you effectively are slowing your deck down by not dropping down my dudes (most likely a Tarmogoyf), which lowers the early damage output. If you do it later (turn 4) with enough mana to activate, it might be too late or inefficient.
With that said, the conclusion I've drawn is it's possible to put two or so in the sideboard for bad match-ups like UW Miracles so I'll probably still pick up two or three, but not at a high price.
Like I said, considering how few bones they've thrown to Zoo in the last year or two, I'm just happy to see SOMETHING worth testing.
I don't play legacy but, how does counterbalance counter krosan's grip?
Counterbalance has a triggered ability, which still triggers, even if your opponent casts Krosan Grip(since Krosan Grip doesn't stop abilities from triggering, it only affects spells and activated abilities).
However, the Countertop player can't manipulate the top of his library in response to Krosan Grip, making Krosan Grip still a good answer against Counterbalance that will work most of the time.
I don't play legacy but, how does counterbalance counter krosan's grip?
Split Second means Spells and activated abilities that are not mana abilities can't be put on the stack.
Special actions, mana abilities and triggered abilities can all still be put on the stack in response to Split Second.
That's why no one really wanted to use Extirpate on a Punishing Fire if Grove is still untapped, because Grove is a mana ability and Punishing Fire has a trigger that will be able to resolve before Extirpate will.
It also means you can blind flip a 3 CMC card off of Counterbalance to counter a Krosan Grip, because the triggered ability still gets put on the stack.
You can also un-morph in response to any Split Second spell as well, as that is considered a special action.
Split Second means Spells and activated abilities that are not mana abilities can't be put on the stack.
Actually, spells and abilities can still be put onto the stack (with Replicate, for instance), you just can't activate/cast them.(unless they are mana abilities)
I'm sure you can, seeing as it's a triggered ability.
However Replicate can only be done on CAST spells, not ones put onto the stack, and since you cannot cast spells in response to Split Second, it kind of makes it a moot point, no?
I'm sure you can, seeing as it's a triggered ability.
However Replicate can only be done on CAST spells, not ones put onto the stack, and since you cannot cast spells in response to Split Second, it kind of makes it a moot point, no?
Pretty sure he was talking about replicating a split second spell as you cast it, using the Djinn to do so.
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Oh, it must feel wonderful to cast one of these in response to a Brainstorm/Jace-storm. You draw three, they draw zero AND have to put two cards back? So good.
Having said that, I'm not convinced that it is playable in Legacy at 4 mana. It's also really fragile as a 3/1. But I'm sure as hell gonna try one in my Esper Stoneblade sideboard just for fun.
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I thought it was even worse because I didn't see that it had Flash the first time I saw it.
Still, I don't think it's Legacy playable.
Textwise, it's clearly a fantastic Brainstorm/Jace hoser. However, it just falls short for a few reasons. One, and the biggest issue, it costs four mana. You can either preemptively play it, or hold up mana trying to blow them out. Neither of those are just particularly appealing in Legacy. Costing four mana means they could have already casted a very high value Brainstorm by the time you have the mana to play this. Also, think about all the other things Legacy has to offer that you can pay four mana for. You know, things that win the game like Jace and Natural Order. The other thing about the four mana pricetag, is that if you are trying to hold it until they cast a Brainstorm or +0 Jace is that you are holding up four mana. Again, four mana is a LOT in Legacy and in most cases it wins you the game. Legacy just isn't the kind of format where you pass the turn with THAT much mana open. If it was, we would be playing with cards like Cryptic Command, Fact or Fiction, and Gifts Ungiven (which by the way are overpowered cards, on a different level of power than Notion Thief for sure, yet don't see play because Legacy is too fast).
Yes there are a couple of exceptions to the Legacy's "four mana rule." Bloodbraid Elf, and Goblin Ringleader come to mind, but it's important to understand why they break the rule. They are both played in heavily attrition based decks that have ways to make their four mana pricetag less of an issue (Lackey, Warchief, and Vial from Goblins, and Deathrite Shaman from Jund), and they sit at the top of their respective curves as a way to put the game out of reach for your opponent. Mind you that Jund and Goblins thrive in largely fair metagames, and struggle with fast combo decks. In that regard, Notion Thief can accomplish the same thing IF you rob somebody of a Brainstorm, or whatever. However, a portion of the field just doesn't care about Notion Thief, and against those decks it just becomes actively bad. Dark Confidant actively laughs at him for instance. BBE and Ringleader always do their job. Notion Thief relies on your opponent to get something done. If you play a preemptive Notion Thief, your opponent is just going to remove it before they play/activate Jace/Brainstorm/whatever. Sure, you costed them a removal spell, but you also spent four mana doing it and your Notion Thief gave you no value... Hell, on the draw their Jace comes down before him, and gets a Brainstorm in before you have a chance to put him down. If you are holding up four mana going for a blowout, and I don't play a Brainstorm or whatever, what then? You just going to keep holding up four mana hoping to get some value out of this while I keep going about my gameplan? Like I said, you can't afford to do that in Legacy.
Also, Jace can be actively GOOD against Notion Thief if you know to play around it. For instance, I can still freely drop Jace and start fatesealing you, or myself (which won't be quite as effective as a Brainstorm to ensure my card quality, but still does a good job of it while also threatening Jace ultimate in a few turns). Do you just keep holding up four mana hoping I make a mistake and +0? I'll let you do that all day. Even if you put this down before I stick a Jace, I'm still going to be happy playing Jace and bouncing Notion Thief. That puts you in an awkward situation. Do you replay Notion Thief? Fine, I'll bounce it again. Play it yet again? Bounce it a third time killing my Jace. Sure, my Jace is gone, but do you realize the tempo swing I just gave myself with you wasting so much mana? Things are especially bad for you if I can bounce Notion Thief killing my Jace, play a second Jace. Even if you don't replay Notion Thief after I bounce him for the first time, I'm still just going to start fatesealing putting me ahead.
The other thing is, it's blue. Which just goes to ask, why aren't you spending your four mana on Jace? Want to get the advantage in the Jace mirror, by running this alongside Jace? There are just better cards that have more utility in other places that already do that, like splashing a Volcanic Island so you can run Red Elemental Blast for instance.
I think you can easily change it to be VERY playable. A change in colors could make it fringe playable even at four cmc, but blue decks don't need a way to hose the cards it hoses because they already play those cards themselves. At two or three cmc a similar effect could be a format staple for years to come. You wouldn't even need to draw cards yourself. A hatebear that just stopped your opponent from drawing more than one card a turn would be incredibly playable at two cmc, potentially changing how the entire format works (at two cmc it would also be great in Vintage, where it would hate on both blue decks and Dredge). Hell it could be symmetrical and be great at that price. Even at three cmc I think it would still be good.
Four? Not so much.
/way too long of a rant
So far the spoilers haven't been too exciting.
Beck is maybe good in Elves as additional Glimpses, but the jump to two mana, and requiring a blue splash, is a big deal.
Wear/Tear is obviously just a solid utility card that will be used in any deck playing both red and white. It's not an exciting card, but it isn't supposed to be. It will see play accordingly. Plus, Elves is in no shortage of bombs with Glimpse, Natural Order, and big Green Sun Zeniths.
Varolz's interaction with Death's Shadow and Phyrexian Dreadnought is adorable, but I think that's about it. The kind of thing I would certainly play with in EDH or with some more casual friends, but not quite strong enough without an engine like Survival behind it. I'll for sure be playing a deck that uses Varolz in the future, but I just don't think Legacy is the format I'll be doing it in.
I have a gut feeling that Ral Zarek is better than I'm giving him credit for at first glance, but time will tell.
To compare it to Ajani Vengeant, who's probably on the edge of being very playable, it's in better colors, untapping your permanents can get very out of hand very quickly (Goblin Welder shenanigans anyone?), and he has enough starting loyalty to double bolt which sadly Ajani does not. He's in direct competition with Jace, being a four cmc blue Planeswalker, but I think that like Tezz 2.0, in a deck built with Ral in mind he could be better than Jace in that specific deck. Of course, that's not to say that you wouldn't want both in such a deck...
I do expect to see spicy Ral brews in the future. Goblin Welder is the first thing that comes to mind for me, but I'm sure that there are plenty of other interactions that can get degenerate quickly.
Also, it's not going to be Legacy playable, but part of me is happy to see a fixed Mana Drain ala Plasm Capture. I don't normally play Modern, but for a card like that I just might.
If you actually land it vs most card drawing abilities, it prolly signals game over for the opponent. It's such a huge card swing. That effect might be worth the 4 mana.
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If you actually land it vs most card drawing abilities, it prolly signals game over for the opponent. It's such a huge card swing. That effect might be worth the 4 mana.
I much rather have Venser at the 4CMC. Venser can counter the draw spell along with anything else even abrupt decay. Its easier on the mana base and reusable with Karakas.
The thing about Notion Thief over Venser is that you not only deny them the cards and get plenty of card advantage, but with even something like Brainstorm they've given you +6 card advantage. And until they kill Thief, it's nigh impossible to get back in the game. Top is offline. Clique is offline. Jace is offline. With no hand, Force is a dead topdeck, and discard is pointless. Most combo decks are offline. And with the card advantage you just stole, they all might as well scoop.
Still, unlike Venser, this is a pure sideboard card. It also needs to be in a deck with some serious free countermagic, because otherwise you're just going to get laughed at for holding up so much mana. It's niche, but I feel like it could find a home.
Agreed, at 4cmc it looks like it'd be hard pressed to be effective. Most decks fire off BS/other draw effects early, and have already realized an advantage by the time this comes down. At 3cmc he'd compete with Vendilion Clique, but being stuck on the ground makes him significantly less attractive.
However, he does seem really like he may find a home (2-of?) in certain UB decks as he also smashes on the plethora of sylvan library/SDT in addition to the obvious BS/JTMS.
Overall I think the lack of evasion and existence of Tarmogoyf + X/1 removal will keep him from making a large impact in the true format.
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land deck 2.0, gates
t1, manabond, drop hand full of gates/ tempo lands(tabernacle or glacial chasm)
t2, bounce maze's end to hand, fetch gate, sylvian scrying, get another gate(also get amulet of vigor).
t3, repeat... and eventually win
this will probably not be competitive at all, but i'm trying it in standard, wait for those results
voice of resugence might see play in elves.
land deck 2.0, gates
t1, manabond, drop hand full of gates/ tempo lands(tabernacle or glacial chasm)
t2, bounce maze's end to hand, fetch gate, sylvian scrying, get another gate(also get amulet of vigor).
t3, repeat... and eventually win
this will probably not be competitive at all, but i'm trying it in standard, wait for those results
voice of resugence might see play in elves.
I was thinking of the synergy manabond had with blood scribe for some sort of loam/pox list. double loam off this guy to bring back a two wastes or a waste and a fetch would be real saucy. Hell you could just draw one and loam one. thoughts?
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I believe it's too slow. You cast it and can use its ability, or you cast it and have to wait to use it's ability, and the first one is the most opportune time, while the later gives the opponent to respond or time correctly. Not only that, but you are weakening the deck to accommodate it's inclusion, which slows the deck down overall by including 3-4 copies of it just to make sure you see it. Something like this needs to be included on an actual creature, but then the CMC would be higher.
You could still try it, if I think this is the conclusion you will come to. I want to try it in my Walking Dead deck, but what throws me off is the threat density slows.
Agreed. I even mentioned the lowering of threat density in my initial speculation. With that said, we're discussing in the Zoo thread and a good point that was brought up was that if you play it earlier (turn 2), you effectively are slowing your deck down by not dropping down my dudes (most likely a Tarmogoyf), which lowers the early damage output. If you do it later (turn 4) with enough mana to activate, it might be too late or inefficient.
With that said, the conclusion I've drawn is it's possible to put two or so in the sideboard for bad match-ups like UW Miracles so I'll probably still pick up two or three, but not at a high price.
Like I said, considering how few bones they've thrown to Zoo in the last year or two, I'm just happy to see SOMETHING worth testing.
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I don't play legacy but, how does counterbalance counter krosan's grip?
Counterbalance has a triggered ability, which still triggers, even if your opponent casts Krosan Grip(since Krosan Grip doesn't stop abilities from triggering, it only affects spells and activated abilities).
However, the Countertop player can't manipulate the top of his library in response to Krosan Grip, making Krosan Grip still a good answer against Counterbalance that will work most of the time.
Split Second means Spells and activated abilities that are not mana abilities can't be put on the stack.
Special actions, mana abilities and triggered abilities can all still be put on the stack in response to Split Second.
That's why no one really wanted to use Extirpate on a Punishing Fire if Grove is still untapped, because Grove is a mana ability and Punishing Fire has a trigger that will be able to resolve before Extirpate will.
It also means you can blind flip a 3 CMC card off of Counterbalance to counter a Krosan Grip, because the triggered ability still gets put on the stack.
You can also un-morph in response to any Split Second spell as well, as that is considered a special action.
Split Second doesn't mean uncounterable.
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Actually, spells and abilities can still be put onto the stack (with Replicate, for instance), you just can't activate/cast them.(unless they are mana abilities)
(Don't tell me you can't trigger Replicate, Djinn Illuminatus)
I'm sure you can, seeing as it's a triggered ability.
However Replicate can only be done on CAST spells, not ones put onto the stack, and since you cannot cast spells in response to Split Second, it kind of makes it a moot point, no?
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Pretty sure he was talking about replicating a split second spell as you cast it, using the Djinn to do so.
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Having said that, I'm not convinced that it is playable in Legacy at 4 mana. It's also really fragile as a 3/1. But I'm sure as hell gonna try one in my Esper Stoneblade sideboard just for fun.
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Still, I don't think it's Legacy playable.
Textwise, it's clearly a fantastic Brainstorm/Jace hoser. However, it just falls short for a few reasons. One, and the biggest issue, it costs four mana. You can either preemptively play it, or hold up mana trying to blow them out. Neither of those are just particularly appealing in Legacy. Costing four mana means they could have already casted a very high value Brainstorm by the time you have the mana to play this. Also, think about all the other things Legacy has to offer that you can pay four mana for. You know, things that win the game like Jace and Natural Order. The other thing about the four mana pricetag, is that if you are trying to hold it until they cast a Brainstorm or +0 Jace is that you are holding up four mana. Again, four mana is a LOT in Legacy and in most cases it wins you the game. Legacy just isn't the kind of format where you pass the turn with THAT much mana open. If it was, we would be playing with cards like Cryptic Command, Fact or Fiction, and Gifts Ungiven (which by the way are overpowered cards, on a different level of power than Notion Thief for sure, yet don't see play because Legacy is too fast).
Yes there are a couple of exceptions to the Legacy's "four mana rule." Bloodbraid Elf, and Goblin Ringleader come to mind, but it's important to understand why they break the rule. They are both played in heavily attrition based decks that have ways to make their four mana pricetag less of an issue (Lackey, Warchief, and Vial from Goblins, and Deathrite Shaman from Jund), and they sit at the top of their respective curves as a way to put the game out of reach for your opponent. Mind you that Jund and Goblins thrive in largely fair metagames, and struggle with fast combo decks. In that regard, Notion Thief can accomplish the same thing IF you rob somebody of a Brainstorm, or whatever. However, a portion of the field just doesn't care about Notion Thief, and against those decks it just becomes actively bad. Dark Confidant actively laughs at him for instance. BBE and Ringleader always do their job. Notion Thief relies on your opponent to get something done. If you play a preemptive Notion Thief, your opponent is just going to remove it before they play/activate Jace/Brainstorm/whatever. Sure, you costed them a removal spell, but you also spent four mana doing it and your Notion Thief gave you no value... Hell, on the draw their Jace comes down before him, and gets a Brainstorm in before you have a chance to put him down. If you are holding up four mana going for a blowout, and I don't play a Brainstorm or whatever, what then? You just going to keep holding up four mana hoping to get some value out of this while I keep going about my gameplan? Like I said, you can't afford to do that in Legacy.
Also, Jace can be actively GOOD against Notion Thief if you know to play around it. For instance, I can still freely drop Jace and start fatesealing you, or myself (which won't be quite as effective as a Brainstorm to ensure my card quality, but still does a good job of it while also threatening Jace ultimate in a few turns). Do you just keep holding up four mana hoping I make a mistake and +0? I'll let you do that all day. Even if you put this down before I stick a Jace, I'm still going to be happy playing Jace and bouncing Notion Thief. That puts you in an awkward situation. Do you replay Notion Thief? Fine, I'll bounce it again. Play it yet again? Bounce it a third time killing my Jace. Sure, my Jace is gone, but do you realize the tempo swing I just gave myself with you wasting so much mana? Things are especially bad for you if I can bounce Notion Thief killing my Jace, play a second Jace. Even if you don't replay Notion Thief after I bounce him for the first time, I'm still just going to start fatesealing putting me ahead.
The other thing is, it's blue. Which just goes to ask, why aren't you spending your four mana on Jace? Want to get the advantage in the Jace mirror, by running this alongside Jace? There are just better cards that have more utility in other places that already do that, like splashing a Volcanic Island so you can run Red Elemental Blast for instance.
I think you can easily change it to be VERY playable. A change in colors could make it fringe playable even at four cmc, but blue decks don't need a way to hose the cards it hoses because they already play those cards themselves. At two or three cmc a similar effect could be a format staple for years to come. You wouldn't even need to draw cards yourself. A hatebear that just stopped your opponent from drawing more than one card a turn would be incredibly playable at two cmc, potentially changing how the entire format works (at two cmc it would also be great in Vintage, where it would hate on both blue decks and Dredge). Hell it could be symmetrical and be great at that price. Even at three cmc I think it would still be good.
Four? Not so much.
/way too long of a rant
So far the spoilers haven't been too exciting.
Beck is maybe good in Elves as additional Glimpses, but the jump to two mana, and requiring a blue splash, is a big deal.
Wear/Tear is obviously just a solid utility card that will be used in any deck playing both red and white. It's not an exciting card, but it isn't supposed to be. It will see play accordingly. Plus, Elves is in no shortage of bombs with Glimpse, Natural Order, and big Green Sun Zeniths.
Varolz's interaction with Death's Shadow and Phyrexian Dreadnought is adorable, but I think that's about it. The kind of thing I would certainly play with in EDH or with some more casual friends, but not quite strong enough without an engine like Survival behind it. I'll for sure be playing a deck that uses Varolz in the future, but I just don't think Legacy is the format I'll be doing it in.
I have a gut feeling that Ral Zarek is better than I'm giving him credit for at first glance, but time will tell.
To compare it to Ajani Vengeant, who's probably on the edge of being very playable, it's in better colors, untapping your permanents can get very out of hand very quickly (Goblin Welder shenanigans anyone?), and he has enough starting loyalty to double bolt which sadly Ajani does not. He's in direct competition with Jace, being a four cmc blue Planeswalker, but I think that like Tezz 2.0, in a deck built with Ral in mind he could be better than Jace in that specific deck. Of course, that's not to say that you wouldn't want both in such a deck...
I do expect to see spicy Ral brews in the future. Goblin Welder is the first thing that comes to mind for me, but I'm sure that there are plenty of other interactions that can get degenerate quickly.
Also, it's not going to be Legacy playable, but part of me is happy to see a fixed Mana Drain ala Plasm Capture. I don't normally play Modern, but for a card like that I just might.
Doubtful. But if someone really hated storm then I guess they could do this.
U/B chains/Anti-brainstom/jace tech is kinda neat. 3/1 with no evasion and 4 cmc is rough though.
EDIT: I didn't read up very far.
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I much rather have Venser at the 4CMC. Venser can counter the draw spell along with anything else even abrupt decay. Its easier on the mana base and reusable with Karakas.
Still, unlike Venser, this is a pure sideboard card. It also needs to be in a deck with some serious free countermagic, because otherwise you're just going to get laughed at for holding up so much mana. It's niche, but I feel like it could find a home.
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However, he does seem really like he may find a home (2-of?) in certain UB decks as he also smashes on the plethora of sylvan library/SDT in addition to the obvious BS/JTMS.
Overall I think the lack of evasion and existence of Tarmogoyf + X/1 removal will keep him from making a large impact in the true format.
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Anyways if this guy is in play and then you play a Vendilion Clique in his/her Draw step...your opponent has just lost a card?
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t1, manabond, drop hand full of gates/ tempo lands(tabernacle or glacial chasm)
t2, bounce maze's end to hand, fetch gate, sylvian scrying, get another gate(also get amulet of vigor).
t3, repeat... and eventually win
this will probably not be competitive at all, but i'm trying it in standard, wait for those results
voice of resugence might see play in elves.
Thanks Argentleman;)
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I was thinking of the synergy manabond had with blood scribe for some sort of loam/pox list. double loam off this guy to bring back a two wastes or a waste and a fetch would be real saucy. Hell you could just draw one and loam one. thoughts?
currently playing:
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