Hi, Im dabbling my toes into legacy and want to play a stoneblade deck. Now that DTT is banned, Baby Jace might be a lot better, and also I would like to try a new tech that could make it. Do you think Jace is good enough to put 2 copies of here on out for a free brainstorm or ponder?
Is there any space where i can put nihiri? It was either a spell pierce or a stifle cut. I think that going back to the stifle route is a nice way to block out BUG delver and possibly run divert back in the SB again. Also, i live in the east coast of NA. Is there a general SB for esper deathblade, D&T, Sneak and Show, and possibly MUD?
If you could be a little more specific about the location, it might be of help. There's remarkable diversity in the metagames of the northeastern United States. I could tell you what to expect in Massachusetts but pretty much nothing else.
The thing that stands out to me about the list you posted is a paucity of answers suitable against Miracles. Equipment is good, but there are only two walkers to back it up. Mother of Runes and Lightning Bolt aren't where you want to be against Terminus, and the Stony Silence in the board awkwardly conflicts with what would otherwise be a great plan, more equipment.
I think Engineered Explosives could be considered. It can clean out Chalice of the Void and resists Counterbalance, has value against Elves, and can do similar work against DnT. The only problem is that some of your own permanents are going to get hit by it, and it's particularly unfortunate to lose a Mother of Runes. You might cut the Moms for more spells, like Ponder... but I'm not sure. This is a Stifle/Wasteland list, which goes in the opposite direction of the way I like my own Blade decks. I generally make them very controlling and cut the tempo cards.
I'm sure it looks unusual, and it may not even belong in this thread. Despite the presence of Shardless Agent, however, I think this deck plays out strategically closer to the Stoneblade family than the black-heavy Shardless lists. There, Agent provides a source of card advantage that offsets Hymn to Tourach's natural tendencies. Here, Agent is a free (cardwise) recursive equipment carrier. The deck seeks out a slice of inevitability somewhere between Miracles and 12-Post. Thus while it will almost never beat Post, games against Miracles are occasions to celebrate. It's such fun to see them build up, cast whatever blasts they've got, and empty their hand before I rebuild my position via Academy Ruins and demonstrate the nullity of all that value. This is one of the few Stoneblade builds I've seen that is advantaged in both the middle and the late game against Miracles.
I've got a little old-school Lands subtheme here, from back when they used to run Intuition. The usual pile is Life from the Loam, Academy Ruins, Engineered Explosives. If any of those has been drawn already, Thopter Foundry or some other artifact can be substituted so value isn't wasted. It's this Intuition plan that distinguishes my build from other versions of the deck, such as Bob Huang's or Rudy's, both of which leaned a little heavier on Enlightened Tutor.
There are a few permanents that give this strategy trouble: Null Rod/Stony Silence, Rest In Peace, and to a lesser extent Blood Moon and related graveyard hate. That's why I've selected a pair of Krosan Grips as well as a Seal of Primordium for the sideboard. The former won't be triggered by Agent, and the later will wait on the field until it is needed. All can be cast with a single green mana (in addition to the colorless, of course), so the Forest is the first fetch target in those matchups.
Combo decks are certainly the main weakness here. With the post-ban metagame in its current state of flux, I'm expecting (and hoping) most other folks reach for their fair decks. The only combo deck I think this pile could reasonably beat (some of the time) is Sneaky Show. With Detention Sphere, Bridge, and Karakas in the main, Enlightened Tutor to find the former two, and Humility + Seal of Primordium coming in out of the board along with the Meddling Mages, things might go my way more often than not. The rest of the combo matchups don't look pretty. This is the price paid for adding a color that doesn't interact much with combo (green) on top of Shardless Agent's already-stringent limitations.
Comments and suggestions welcome. That's why I typed this out!
I do live in the MA area. From what i saw, my locals has a MUD player. As well as BUG delvers, D&T, and other stoneblade decks. I thought the MOM could be useful to keep our creatures in play from Abrupt, Swords, as well as help swing through.
I will switch out the stony silence for something, maybe light and shadow + feast and famine? The engineered explosive will be a great consideration. I might go the thopter foundry, sword of the meek combo as well.
What i also think is that maybe we can SB double top with monastery mentor + counterbalance for more control?
Mother of Runes is great, but look at the creatures you're protecting. You could simply play more TNNs, and all of those issues you mentioned would be taken care of automatically.
It's a little tough to play those high CMC cards, including the walkers, and use Wasteland at the same time. I rarely run Jace together with that stuff.
If you could be a little more specific about the location, it might be of help. There's remarkable diversity in the metagames of the northeastern United States. I could tell you what to expect in Massachusetts but pretty much nothing else.
The thing that stands out to me about the list you posted is a paucity of answers suitable against Miracles. Equipment is good, but there are only two walkers to back it up. Mother of Runes and Lightning Bolt aren't where you want to be against Terminus, and the Stony Silence in the board awkwardly conflicts with what would otherwise be a great plan, more equipment.
I think Engineered Explosives could be considered. It can clean out Chalice of the Void and resists Counterbalance, has value against Elves, and can do similar work against DnT. The only problem is that some of your own permanents are going to get hit by it, and it's particularly unfortunate to lose a Mother of Runes. You might cut the Moms for more spells, like Ponder... but I'm not sure. This is a Stifle/Wasteland list, which goes in the opposite direction of the way I like my own Blade decks. I generally make them very controlling and cut the tempo cards.
I'm sure it looks unusual, and it may not even belong in this thread. Despite the presence of Shardless Agent, however, I think this deck plays out strategically closer to the Stoneblade family than the black-heavy Shardless lists. There, Agent provides a source of card advantage that offsets Hymn to Tourach's natural tendencies. Here, Agent is a free (cardwise) recursive equipment carrier. The deck seeks out a slice of inevitability somewhere between Miracles and 12-Post. Thus while it will almost never beat Post, games against Miracles are occasions to celebrate. It's such fun to see them build up, cast whatever blasts they've got, and empty their hand before I rebuild my position via Academy Ruins and demonstrate the nullity of all that value. This is one of the few Stoneblade builds I've seen that is advantaged in both the middle and the late game against Miracles.
I've got a little old-school Lands subtheme here, from back when they used to run Intuition. The usual pile is Life from the Loam, Academy Ruins, Engineered Explosives. If any of those has been drawn already, Thopter Foundry or some other artifact can be substituted so value isn't wasted. It's this Intuition plan that distinguishes my build from other versions of the deck, such as Bob Huang's or Rudy's, both of which leaned a little heavier on Enlightened Tutor.
There are a few permanents that give this strategy trouble: Null Rod/Stony Silence, Rest In Peace, and to a lesser extent Blood Moon and related graveyard hate. That's why I've selected a pair of Krosan Grips as well as a Seal of Primordium for the sideboard. The former won't be triggered by Agent, and the later will wait on the field until it is needed. All can be cast with a single green mana (in addition to the colorless, of course), so the Forest is the first fetch target in those matchups.
Combo decks are certainly the main weakness here. With the post-ban metagame in its current state of flux, I'm expecting (and hoping) most other folks reach for their fair decks. The only combo deck I think this pile could reasonably beat (some of the time) is Sneaky Show. With Detention Sphere, Bridge, and Karakas in the main, Enlightened Tutor to find the former two, and Humility + Seal of Primordium coming in out of the board along with the Meddling Mages, things might go my way more often than not. The rest of the combo matchups don't look pretty. This is the price paid for adding a color that doesn't interact much with combo (green) on top of Shardless Agent's already-stringent limitations.
Comments and suggestions welcome. That's why I typed this out!
This list is pretty sweet and something that T8 some SCG events about 1 1/2 years ago if I'm remembering correctly?
I would build this list up in a second but I don't own mistys or a second trop which is a major $$ barrier to the deck as I think its unplayable without them and the ability to search up basic island/forest.
I'm getting back onto the deathblade train and this is the list I'll be playtesting for the foreseeable future:
I certainly agree with you on the manabase, this isn't one of those decks that can just play any blue fetchland and call it a day. Doing so would remove the deck's modest resilience to Wasteland and Blood Moon and make the prospect of building up to big 3+ mana plays untenable. It would be better to play Deathblade, accept the complex manabase, and hedge with Deathrite Shaman.
I'd play Deathblade with the deep green myself if there weren't such a large population of steady Blood Moon and DnT players in every local tournament.
One thing I've been wondering is how much sense it really makes for us to continue playing Stoneforge Mystic. I mean, I'm sort of stuck with it because Shardless Agent won't cast free Monastery Mentors, but everyone paying fair mana for these spells might do well to consider the monk tokens. I was having a hoot of a time with the bladeless Esper Mentor in the waning days of Dig Through Time, and I'd just switch the DTTs straight out if I didn't have this green build burning a hole in my pocket. Switching from Stoneforge to Mentor opens up useful design space. The package is smaller, for one thing, once the artifacts are gone. That means more of whatever component you think is most important, whether it be spot removal, discard, or sweepers. Even just some Baleful Strix cards go very well with these. In the sideboard, Null Rod and Stony Silence finally become options, and those cards are really devastating.
A mirror match, for one thing, against "bladeless Blade" is harsh indeed, they've got these extra discard spells to fight the equipment in addition to Stony Silence.
In your particular list, ltj999, are you sure you aren't a little too long on green mana? Tropical Island, Bayou, and Savannah together are a big commitment to the color, even with MD Abrupt Decays and Sylvan Library in the board. I wonder if there might not be some use of Life from the Loam possible here. The spell could live in the board, maybe switching -1 Creeping Tar Pit +1 Wasteland, and come in when you anticipate a fight over your mana sources.
Personally, I've never really liked SoFnF as an anti-combo sword. It's just so slow that I don't feel it gets the job done, and its only real duty is to allow me to keep my Mystics in the main. However, including the Mystics, you've got about 13 cards that can conceivably come out against combo: 6 Mystic and targets, 2 TNNs, 2 Decays, 1 Souls, 3 StP. There are already 10 cards in the board that could come in, so I think you can actually get by without Feast and Famine.
Finally, I think Meddling Mage deserves some attention, possibly even over the 4th Force of Will and 4th Thoughtseize (which could be a Therapy or Duress). You're already pretty strong on counter-based and discard-based disruption, adding some more hatebears to the mix will make it a nightmare to play combo against this thing.
I certainly agree with you on the manabase, this isn't one of those decks that can just play any blue fetchland and call it a day. Doing so would remove the deck's modest resilience to Wasteland and Blood Moon and make the prospect of building up to big 3+ mana plays untenable. It would be better to play Deathblade, accept the complex manabase, and hedge with Deathrite Shaman.
I'd play Deathblade with the deep green myself if there weren't such a large population of steady Blood Moon and DnT players in every local tournament.
One thing I've been wondering is how much sense it really makes for us to continue playing Stoneforge Mystic. I mean, I'm sort of stuck with it because Shardless Agent won't cast free Monastery Mentors, but everyone paying fair mana for these spells might do well to consider the monk tokens. I was having a hoot of a time with the bladeless Esper Mentor in the waning days of Dig Through Time, and I'd just switch the DTTs straight out if I didn't have this green build burning a hole in my pocket. Switching from Stoneforge to Mentor opens up useful design space. The package is smaller, for one thing, once the artifacts are gone. That means more of whatever component you think is most important, whether it be spot removal, discard, or sweepers. Even just some Baleful Strix cards go very well with these. In the sideboard, Null Rod and Stony Silence finally become options, and those cards are really devastating.
A mirror match, for one thing, against "bladeless Blade" is harsh indeed, they've got these extra discard spells to fight the equipment in addition to Stony Silence.
In your particular list, ltj999, are you sure you aren't a little too long on green mana? Tropical Island, Bayou, and Savannah together are a big commitment to the color, even with MD Abrupt Decays and Sylvan Library in the board. I wonder if there might not be some use of Life from the Loam possible here. The spell could live in the board, maybe switching -1 Creeping Tar Pit +1 Wasteland, and come in when you anticipate a fight over your mana sources.
Personally, I've never really liked SoFnF as an anti-combo sword. It's just so slow that I don't feel it gets the job done, and its only real duty is to allow me to keep my Mystics in the main. However, including the Mystics, you've got about 13 cards that can conceivably come out against combo: 6 Mystic and targets, 2 TNNs, 2 Decays, 1 Souls, 3 StP. There are already 10 cards in the board that could come in, so I think you can actually get by without Feast and Famine.
Finally, I think Meddling Mage deserves some attention, possibly even over the 4th Force of Will and 4th Thoughtseize (which could be a Therapy or Duress). You're already pretty strong on counter-based and discard-based disruption, adding some more hatebears to the mix will make it a nightmare to play combo against this thing.
Thanks for your input. The list is certainly still in its beginning stages. I originally had a 3rd decay in the main but haven't come to a decision on it yet. I may be a little green heavy but when I have one of those decays in hand I REALLY want to be able to cast them. Only testing over time will tell. I like where you going with the loam though...
I've thought about some mages in the board, possibly over the sword and maybe over the thoughtseize. I feel like if I'm running mages 3 is the correct number, but I wouldn't but sure what else to cut.
As a side note the lands match-up is absolutely horrendous, not that I wasn't expecting it to be. But that match-up in particularly I think needs some thought in the sideboard outside of the usual RIP and Needle. That loam you mentioned from before...
As for the mentors, I actually tested mentor deathblade during DTT. Deck just felt seriously clunky. It never runs enough cantrips to feel like I'm consistently cashing in mentor for a value but maybe my list needed work. I just felt like 3/4 times I cast mentor and my hand would be like thoughtseize, decay, etc. which was really tough to get as much value out of mentor with. Now in miracles on the other hand. I love mentor in that deck. So good.
RIP and Needle are great against Lands, but both of these can eat a K-grip and open the floodgates. You've got Snapcaster Mage already though, so why not just switch up the graveyard hate to Surgical Extraction? That's usually pretty good against Loam decks.
RIP is an amazing card, but it also messes with your own deck.
...EDIT...
Well, it looked good on paper, and I recall it testing well awhile ago... but in practice, the Shardless Bant list I tried really just could not win a match. Partly this was due to my own play errors and inexperience with the deck, but I've picked up new decks plenty of times before with a lot more success than this. Here's what happened over the three rounds before I dropped to eat dinner.
Round 1: Junk planeswalkers
I was working on this guy's list last week, and the Esperblade list I had been using at the time was working very smoothly against it. This week I only managed to take game 1, which went beautifully. He played Humility and started spawning tokens, but Shardless found my Thopter Foundry. Jace and Ensnaring Bridge took over. Game 2 he got me with a Choke, and I hadn't sided in my Seal of Primordium. Vindicate on my Savannah left me without mana to use the Detention Sphere rotting in my hand. Game 3 went to turns, and I was sure that the draw was secured until his last card (an Abrupt Decay) abruptly ate my Ensnaring Bridge.
Round 2: Infect
A bad keep hastened my defeat in game 2, but there seemed to be little I could do against this strategy.
Round 3: Miracles
Finally the matchup I'd been waiting for! Though I figured my chances at top 8 were nonexistent at this point, being paired against a 0-2 Miracles player sounded like great fun. I had a great hand game 1, with an early recursive Engineered Explosives against his Countertop, but he just kept on finding the weird 3s, 4s, and 5s, I kept throwing at him. He managed to deal with a few of my creatures and continued ticking up Jace until it was too late. Game 2 I forgot about Blood Moon, and got caught with my pants down.
Bonus Round: Death and Taxes
A friend of mine, assured for the top 8 himself, demonstrated the frailty of the deck's high-CMC-supporting manabase in the face of Rishadan Port, the ability of Mirran Crusader to swing straight through Shardless Agent, and the frailty of Thopter Sword combo when faced with Phyrexian Revoker.
We talked a bit about how some acceleration and/or a heavier defense like Moat might improve the deck, but I think it's time for me to cut my losses and move on. I'd gotten quite used to winning during the DTT era, placing at most events I entered with either BURG, Grixis Delver, Miracles, or Esper Blade. I think I'll return to that last one.
That stinks to hear! This is the build that I was referring too that seemed to have a decent run from time to time. Looks pretty similar to yours actually..
Yeah, that's the build that was kicking around at the time. A few other folks managed to place or otherwise do well with it at the time, but what can I say... it failed me today. There were numerous (occasionally egregious) punts in there, and I maintain that it was rather unlikely for that Miracles player to find all those weird CMCs. It might be wrong to blame the deck entirely, and in fact I think it plays precisely to my weakness as a player. When I'm ahead, especially when I'm up in cards, I tend to get sloppy.
On the plus side, the collection is on the table and the mat is all rolled out, time to find a sweet new list to play with! Perhaps I'll try yours. I think I have all the cardboard needed for this...
Yeah, that's the build that was kicking around at the time. A few other folks managed to place or otherwise do well with it at the time, but what can I say... it failed me today. There were numerous (occasionally egregious) punts in there, and I maintain that it was rather unlikely for that Miracles player to find all those weird CMCs. It might be wrong to blame the deck entirely, and in fact I think it plays precisely to my weakness as a player. When I'm ahead, especially when I'm up in cards, I tend to get sloppy.
On the plus side, the collection is on the table and the mat is all rolled out, time to find a sweet new list to play with! Perhaps I'll try yours. I think I have all the cardboard needed for this...
Miracles isn't an easy matchup for stoneblade. From my understanding, if you want to splash Green it should be pretty much just for K grip which would certainly help against Miracles at the very least. Without deathrite, Shardless seems a little unwieldy although the idea seems cool. But you're giving up a ton of permission to be able to do it.
I'm thinking about going old school and playing with a faeries splash. Maindeck bitterblossom seems solid against miracles and a lot of the noncombo field. I'm unsure on spellstutter but that's what testing is for.
Why no FOW? Could you support some of your choices with reasons? There are quite a few cards in your list that do not work well with each other or are inferior to other cards that you could be running.
This is the wrong thread for this deck. You should be here. Just because a deck has stoneforge and equipment doesn't automatically make it "Stoneblade". The Stoneblade archetype leans heavily towards *control*, not aggressive tempo. Delver, Geist, and Daze are some of the most tempo-oriented cards in the game and don't fit into Stoneblade.
UW Stoneblade
UWR Stoneblade
Esper Stoneblade
and Bant Stoneblade
each of them are special and I'd like to hear your opinion about them.
I think with the ban of Dig through, UWR got worse, because the best card in UWR was Pyroblast, the card was perfect in the Dig through time Meta. With UWR Stoneblade I mean the delver less list.
Bant Stoneblade looks really funny, but each time I tried it, I had awkward hands/draws. Because there are so many card that you won't have on the hand ... That's why I like to hear more the opinion of a Bant stoneblade player, because I have not so much experience to judge that deck.
UW stoneblade is a little bit special, because you can play it different for example with Man lands or with Back to Basics, perhabs with Thopter combo etc. I'd like to see your Decklists
Esper Stoneblade, is at the moment my favourite Stoneblade deck, Lingering Souls is a great card, and with black you have access to disacrd, which makes the combo matchups better.
I play UWr, and I think the deck overall hasn't changed too much in power. It's true that without the juiciness of DTT red blasts have gotten worse, but the format is still ridiculously blue. Joe Lossett is still running a pyroblast maindeck just like he did before the delve-copalypse, after all. However, Blood Moon is now more effective at collecting those sweet sweet free wins, especially if you do the "unthinkable" and maindeck a copy. That's kind of a theme of my current build - I run 8 cards (E-tutor package + meddling mages) that people usually expect as sideboard-only but are actually not that narrow.
My maindeck Nahiri and Narset have continued to pull serious weight. They've both given me wins that Jace and Elspeth would not have been able to. The players around here have learned to give them the respect they deserve.
I'm currently running a blue white version of Stoneblade, partially due to lack of Seas and partially because it's felt really consistent. My meta is a normal range of legacy decks (death & taxes, miracles, merfolk, painter, stoneblade, elves, etc). Would love any feedback on the deck, especially from those of you who have played the two color version.
I've had a lot better results from SoFaI over SoFoF. SoFaI puts out a lot more pressure, both in CA and damage. Drawing a card tends to be higher impact than my opponent discarding their worst card. I also feel that SoFaI has more relevant protections.
4 TNN is too all-in on the card. For a while now I've not liked TNN in the deck at all, but when I do run it it's as a 2-of. To me, TNN is supposed to be this insane unanswerable threat, but the meta nowadays is just too prepared for it and I get disappointed. Token-makers fit the role better.. people still just don't run much planeswalker removal. About the only time TNN feels better than token-makers is when I'm facing down a Maze of Ith, but my current deck configuration utterly *crushes* Lands so that minor issue doesn't actually matter.
2 Containment Priest and 2 RiP do a lot more work than the cages and surgicals. RiP is the absolute ultimate hammer of justice against grave-dependent strategies, nothing else comes close. Containment Priest doesn't awkwardly shut off snapcasters the way cage does in the matchups you want Priest but not RiP (elves, sneak&show, nic fit).
I'd also find room the sideboard for 1 E-Tutor, the card just wins games by amplifying your sideboard a ton. It also opens slots for important stuff like Ethersworn Canonist.
With a mana base as consistent as yours, I'd definitely want to fit in at least two taps-for-colorless utility lands in there. Academy Ruins is my usual go-to, but it doesn't really fit when you can't really do EE-lock. Wasteland, Moorland Haunt and Tower of the Magistrate are the best options I can think of right at the moment.
I'm currently running a blue white version of Stoneblade, partially due to lack of Seas and partially because it's felt really consistent. My meta is a normal range of legacy decks (death & taxes, miracles, merfolk, painter, stoneblade, elves, etc). Would love any feedback on the deck, especially from those of you who have played the two color version.
I understand why you have geist in your deck but he really isn't all that great. 4 TNN is plenty for suiting up an equipment to. Another Ponder or spell pierce is probably fine. With 4 TNN your game plan is SFM->Equipment->TNN->Suit up TNN->Win. I'm not sure how 3 ponder plus all your 4 mana stuff is but adding another land might be ok too. Your side is fine. RIP and Containment priest are generally better like tuxdev said, but they cost more vs surgical and cage and surgical is arguably more versatile. Also, don't forget that wasteland is an amazing card that just wins games sometimes. I played it as a one-of for a long time and it literally won me games I had no business winning. Also Sword of Fire and Ice is the best sword.
@tuxdev: You're deck is quite spicy looking. MD meddling mages is great but you're average CMC seems a little high for my tastes. E tutor is also a very debatable card because of the card disadvantage. I've gone on and off running it and sometimes you're too far behind for it to work when a spell pierce or something would've just been better. Regardless though, how have your matchups changed with your variation of the deck?
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4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Council's Judgement
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
Planeswalkers: 2
1 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 Narset transcendent
Lands: 21
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Wasteland
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Plain
1 Mountain
Is there any space where i can put nihiri? It was either a spell pierce or a stifle cut. I think that going back to the stifle route is a nice way to block out BUG delver and possibly run divert back in the SB again. Also, i live in the east coast of NA. Is there a general SB for esper deathblade, D&T, Sneak and Show, and possibly MUD?
1 Nihiri, lithomancer
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Meddling Mage
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Stony Silence
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Sword of fire and ice
This seems like a decent list, criticism would be great.
The thing that stands out to me about the list you posted is a paucity of answers suitable against Miracles. Equipment is good, but there are only two walkers to back it up. Mother of Runes and Lightning Bolt aren't where you want to be against Terminus, and the Stony Silence in the board awkwardly conflicts with what would otherwise be a great plan, more equipment.
I think Engineered Explosives could be considered. It can clean out Chalice of the Void and resists Counterbalance, has value against Elves, and can do similar work against DnT. The only problem is that some of your own permanents are going to get hit by it, and it's particularly unfortunate to lose a Mother of Runes. You might cut the Moms for more spells, like Ponder... but I'm not sure. This is a Stifle/Wasteland list, which goes in the opposite direction of the way I like my own Blade decks. I generally make them very controlling and cut the tempo cards.
...
EDIT: This is the pile I'm pushing these days.
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Shardless Agent
1 Vendilion Clique
Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Detention Sphere
Lands
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Humility
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Krosan Grip
1 Council's Judgment
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Meddling Mage
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Engineered Explosives
I'm sure it looks unusual, and it may not even belong in this thread. Despite the presence of Shardless Agent, however, I think this deck plays out strategically closer to the Stoneblade family than the black-heavy Shardless lists. There, Agent provides a source of card advantage that offsets Hymn to Tourach's natural tendencies. Here, Agent is a free (cardwise) recursive equipment carrier. The deck seeks out a slice of inevitability somewhere between Miracles and 12-Post. Thus while it will almost never beat Post, games against Miracles are occasions to celebrate. It's such fun to see them build up, cast whatever blasts they've got, and empty their hand before I rebuild my position via Academy Ruins and demonstrate the nullity of all that value. This is one of the few Stoneblade builds I've seen that is advantaged in both the middle and the late game against Miracles.
I've got a little old-school Lands subtheme here, from back when they used to run Intuition. The usual pile is Life from the Loam, Academy Ruins, Engineered Explosives. If any of those has been drawn already, Thopter Foundry or some other artifact can be substituted so value isn't wasted. It's this Intuition plan that distinguishes my build from other versions of the deck, such as Bob Huang's or Rudy's, both of which leaned a little heavier on Enlightened Tutor.
There are a few permanents that give this strategy trouble: Null Rod/Stony Silence, Rest In Peace, and to a lesser extent Blood Moon and related graveyard hate. That's why I've selected a pair of Krosan Grips as well as a Seal of Primordium for the sideboard. The former won't be triggered by Agent, and the later will wait on the field until it is needed. All can be cast with a single green mana (in addition to the colorless, of course), so the Forest is the first fetch target in those matchups.
Combo decks are certainly the main weakness here. With the post-ban metagame in its current state of flux, I'm expecting (and hoping) most other folks reach for their fair decks. The only combo deck I think this pile could reasonably beat (some of the time) is Sneaky Show. With Detention Sphere, Bridge, and Karakas in the main, Enlightened Tutor to find the former two, and Humility + Seal of Primordium coming in out of the board along with the Meddling Mages, things might go my way more often than not. The rest of the combo matchups don't look pretty. This is the price paid for adding a color that doesn't interact much with combo (green) on top of Shardless Agent's already-stringent limitations.
Comments and suggestions welcome. That's why I typed this out!
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
I will switch out the stony silence for something, maybe light and shadow + feast and famine? The engineered explosive will be a great consideration. I might go the thopter foundry, sword of the meek combo as well.
What i also think is that maybe we can SB double top with monastery mentor + counterbalance for more control?
It's a little tough to play those high CMC cards, including the walkers, and use Wasteland at the same time. I rarely run Jace together with that stuff.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
This list is pretty sweet and something that T8 some SCG events about 1 1/2 years ago if I'm remembering correctly?
I would build this list up in a second but I don't own mistys or a second trop which is a major $$ barrier to the deck as I think its unplayable without them and the ability to search up basic island/forest.
I'm getting back onto the deathblade train and this is the list I'll be playtesting for the foreseeable future:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Lingering Souls
1 counterspell
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Wasteland
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Tarpit
Sideboard
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
1 v-clique
1 Council's Judgment
1 SoF&F
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Pithing Needle
1 Notion Thief
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thoughtseize
1 Krosan Grip
UWRMiraclesRWU
Modern
UWRControlRWU
Standard
Ummm no...
Trade Thread
I'd play Deathblade with the deep green myself if there weren't such a large population of steady Blood Moon and DnT players in every local tournament.
One thing I've been wondering is how much sense it really makes for us to continue playing Stoneforge Mystic. I mean, I'm sort of stuck with it because Shardless Agent won't cast free Monastery Mentors, but everyone paying fair mana for these spells might do well to consider the monk tokens. I was having a hoot of a time with the bladeless Esper Mentor in the waning days of Dig Through Time, and I'd just switch the DTTs straight out if I didn't have this green build burning a hole in my pocket. Switching from Stoneforge to Mentor opens up useful design space. The package is smaller, for one thing, once the artifacts are gone. That means more of whatever component you think is most important, whether it be spot removal, discard, or sweepers. Even just some Baleful Strix cards go very well with these. In the sideboard, Null Rod and Stony Silence finally become options, and those cards are really devastating.
A mirror match, for one thing, against "bladeless Blade" is harsh indeed, they've got these extra discard spells to fight the equipment in addition to Stony Silence.
In your particular list, ltj999, are you sure you aren't a little too long on green mana? Tropical Island, Bayou, and Savannah together are a big commitment to the color, even with MD Abrupt Decays and Sylvan Library in the board. I wonder if there might not be some use of Life from the Loam possible here. The spell could live in the board, maybe switching -1 Creeping Tar Pit +1 Wasteland, and come in when you anticipate a fight over your mana sources.
Personally, I've never really liked SoFnF as an anti-combo sword. It's just so slow that I don't feel it gets the job done, and its only real duty is to allow me to keep my Mystics in the main. However, including the Mystics, you've got about 13 cards that can conceivably come out against combo: 6 Mystic and targets, 2 TNNs, 2 Decays, 1 Souls, 3 StP. There are already 10 cards in the board that could come in, so I think you can actually get by without Feast and Famine.
Finally, I think Meddling Mage deserves some attention, possibly even over the 4th Force of Will and 4th Thoughtseize (which could be a Therapy or Duress). You're already pretty strong on counter-based and discard-based disruption, adding some more hatebears to the mix will make it a nightmare to play combo against this thing.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Thanks for your input. The list is certainly still in its beginning stages. I originally had a 3rd decay in the main but haven't come to a decision on it yet. I may be a little green heavy but when I have one of those decays in hand I REALLY want to be able to cast them. Only testing over time will tell. I like where you going with the loam though...
I've thought about some mages in the board, possibly over the sword and maybe over the thoughtseize. I feel like if I'm running mages 3 is the correct number, but I wouldn't but sure what else to cut.
As a side note the lands match-up is absolutely horrendous, not that I wasn't expecting it to be. But that match-up in particularly I think needs some thought in the sideboard outside of the usual RIP and Needle. That loam you mentioned from before...
As for the mentors, I actually tested mentor deathblade during DTT. Deck just felt seriously clunky. It never runs enough cantrips to feel like I'm consistently cashing in mentor for a value but maybe my list needed work. I just felt like 3/4 times I cast mentor and my hand would be like thoughtseize, decay, etc. which was really tough to get as much value out of mentor with. Now in miracles on the other hand. I love mentor in that deck. So good.
UWRMiraclesRWU
Modern
UWRControlRWU
Standard
Ummm no...
Trade Thread
RIP is an amazing card, but it also messes with your own deck.
...EDIT...
Well, it looked good on paper, and I recall it testing well awhile ago... but in practice, the Shardless Bant list I tried really just could not win a match. Partly this was due to my own play errors and inexperience with the deck, but I've picked up new decks plenty of times before with a lot more success than this. Here's what happened over the three rounds before I dropped to eat dinner.
Round 1: Junk planeswalkers
I was working on this guy's list last week, and the Esperblade list I had been using at the time was working very smoothly against it. This week I only managed to take game 1, which went beautifully. He played Humility and started spawning tokens, but Shardless found my Thopter Foundry. Jace and Ensnaring Bridge took over. Game 2 he got me with a Choke, and I hadn't sided in my Seal of Primordium. Vindicate on my Savannah left me without mana to use the Detention Sphere rotting in my hand. Game 3 went to turns, and I was sure that the draw was secured until his last card (an Abrupt Decay) abruptly ate my Ensnaring Bridge.
Round 2: Infect
A bad keep hastened my defeat in game 2, but there seemed to be little I could do against this strategy.
Round 3: Miracles
Finally the matchup I'd been waiting for! Though I figured my chances at top 8 were nonexistent at this point, being paired against a 0-2 Miracles player sounded like great fun. I had a great hand game 1, with an early recursive Engineered Explosives against his Countertop, but he just kept on finding the weird 3s, 4s, and 5s, I kept throwing at him. He managed to deal with a few of my creatures and continued ticking up Jace until it was too late. Game 2 I forgot about Blood Moon, and got caught with my pants down.
Bonus Round: Death and Taxes
A friend of mine, assured for the top 8 himself, demonstrated the frailty of the deck's high-CMC-supporting manabase in the face of Rishadan Port, the ability of Mirran Crusader to swing straight through Shardless Agent, and the frailty of Thopter Sword combo when faced with Phyrexian Revoker.
We talked a bit about how some acceleration and/or a heavier defense like Moat might improve the deck, but I think it's time for me to cut my losses and move on. I'd gotten quite used to winning during the DTT era, placing at most events I entered with either BURG, Grixis Delver, Miracles, or Esper Blade. I think I'll return to that last one.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1208012
UWRMiraclesRWU
Modern
UWRControlRWU
Standard
Ummm no...
Trade Thread
On the plus side, the collection is on the table and the mat is all rolled out, time to find a sweet new list to play with! Perhaps I'll try yours. I think I have all the cardboard needed for this...
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Miracles isn't an easy matchup for stoneblade. From my understanding, if you want to splash Green it should be pretty much just for K grip which would certainly help against Miracles at the very least. Without deathrite, Shardless seems a little unwieldy although the idea seems cool. But you're giving up a ton of permission to be able to do it.
I'm thinking about going old school and playing with a faeries splash. Maindeck bitterblossom seems solid against miracles and a lot of the noncombo field. I'm unsure on spellstutter but that's what testing is for.
4 stoneforge
4 drs
4 tnn
2 snap
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
1 library
4 swords
2 decay
3 thoughtseize
2 pierce
1 counterspell
4 fow
1 jitte
1 batterskull
10 fetch
2 u-sea
3 tundra
1 trop
1 bayou
1 scrub
2 waste
SB:
2 rip
2 containment priest
1 flusterstorm
3 m-mage
2 lotv
2 p-needle
1 kgrip
1 zealous-p
1 SoFI
UWRMiraclesRWU
Modern
UWRControlRWU
Standard
Ummm no...
Trade Thread
2x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x True-Name Nemesis
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
3x Daze
2x Mana Leak
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Ponder
2x Serum Visions
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Nahiri, the Lithomancer
1x Academy Ruins
4x Flooded Strand
5x Island
2x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
4x Tundra
EDH
Roon of the Hidden Realms UGW
Modern
UW TronUW
Blocks Constructed
KamigawaU|Return to RavnicaUW|TherosUWG
How do you feel with no PWs main? Do you feel a loss in late game inevitability?
Why no FOW? Could you support some of your choices with reasons? There are quite a few cards in your list that do not work well with each other or are inferior to other cards that you could be running.
This is the wrong thread for this deck. You should be here. Just because a deck has stoneforge and equipment doesn't automatically make it "Stoneblade". The Stoneblade archetype leans heavily towards *control*, not aggressive tempo. Delver, Geist, and Daze are some of the most tempo-oriented cards in the game and don't fit into Stoneblade.
Twitch channel
I'd like to bring more life in this Forum. Let's discuss! (Unfortunately my english isn't very good)
I really love Stoneblade, I tried for a year every variation of stoneblade, at the moment I'm playing this Esper Stoneblade list.
1x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Karakas
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
4x Swords to Plowshares
Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Council's Judgment
3x Lingering Souls
2x Ponder
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Thoughtseize
Creature (9)
3x Baleful Strix
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
But there are different stoneblade variations:
UW Stoneblade
UWR Stoneblade
Esper Stoneblade
and Bant Stoneblade
each of them are special and I'd like to hear your opinion about them.
I think with the ban of Dig through, UWR got worse, because the best card in UWR was Pyroblast, the card was perfect in the Dig through time Meta. With UWR Stoneblade I mean the delver less list.
Bant Stoneblade looks really funny, but each time I tried it, I had awkward hands/draws. Because there are so many card that you won't have on the hand ... That's why I like to hear more the opinion of a Bant stoneblade player, because I have not so much experience to judge that deck.
UW stoneblade is a little bit special, because you can play it different for example with Man lands or with Back to Basics, perhabs with Thopter combo etc. I'd like to see your Decklists
Esper Stoneblade, is at the moment my favourite Stoneblade deck, Lingering Souls is a great card, and with black you have access to disacrd, which makes the combo matchups better.
There are also other things to discuss
For example:
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Painful Truths
Nahiri, the Lithomancer
etc.
But I like to hear your Opinion and I hope this forum gets more lively
My maindeck Nahiri and Narset have continued to pull serious weight. They've both given me wins that Jace and Elspeth would not have been able to. The players around here have learned to give them the respect they deserve.
Here's my current 75:
4 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Creatures/Equipment
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Meddling Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Answers
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgement
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
E-Tutor "I win" trump package
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Narset Transcendent
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mystic Gate
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
3 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear//Tear
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pithing Needle
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Counterspell
1 Supreme Verdict
Twitch channel
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Council's Judgment
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Back to Basics
2 Chill
1 Council's Judgment
2 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Surgical Extraction
4 TNN is too all-in on the card. For a while now I've not liked TNN in the deck at all, but when I do run it it's as a 2-of. To me, TNN is supposed to be this insane unanswerable threat, but the meta nowadays is just too prepared for it and I get disappointed. Token-makers fit the role better.. people still just don't run much planeswalker removal. About the only time TNN feels better than token-makers is when I'm facing down a Maze of Ith, but my current deck configuration utterly *crushes* Lands so that minor issue doesn't actually matter.
2 Containment Priest and 2 RiP do a lot more work than the cages and surgicals. RiP is the absolute ultimate hammer of justice against grave-dependent strategies, nothing else comes close. Containment Priest doesn't awkwardly shut off snapcasters the way cage does in the matchups you want Priest but not RiP (elves, sneak&show, nic fit).
I'd also find room the sideboard for 1 E-Tutor, the card just wins games by amplifying your sideboard a ton. It also opens slots for important stuff like Ethersworn Canonist.
With a mana base as consistent as yours, I'd definitely want to fit in at least two taps-for-colorless utility lands in there. Academy Ruins is my usual go-to, but it doesn't really fit when you can't really do EE-lock. Wasteland, Moorland Haunt and Tower of the Magistrate are the best options I can think of right at the moment.
Twitch channel
I understand why you have geist in your deck but he really isn't all that great. 4 TNN is plenty for suiting up an equipment to. Another Ponder or spell pierce is probably fine. With 4 TNN your game plan is SFM->Equipment->TNN->Suit up TNN->Win. I'm not sure how 3 ponder plus all your 4 mana stuff is but adding another land might be ok too. Your side is fine. RIP and Containment priest are generally better like tuxdev said, but they cost more vs surgical and cage and surgical is arguably more versatile. Also, don't forget that wasteland is an amazing card that just wins games sometimes. I played it as a one-of for a long time and it literally won me games I had no business winning. Also Sword of Fire and Ice is the best sword.
@tuxdev: You're deck is quite spicy looking. MD meddling mages is great but you're average CMC seems a little high for my tastes. E tutor is also a very debatable card because of the card disadvantage. I've gone on and off running it and sometimes you're too far behind for it to work when a spell pierce or something would've just been better. Regardless though, how have your matchups changed with your variation of the deck?