I have a question that i'm sure the answer totally depends on what type of deck your playing and your current situation but I'll ask it anyway. Is it worth it to tap Mother Of Runes to get a few damage through (between 1-4) a chump block to leave her vulnerable to Lightning boltSword to Plowshares etc....
I usually find myself trying to keep MOM untapped unless I absolutely need her. Someone should write a guide on the use of MOM because all of her interactions.
Here is another question if I have a choice between a T1 MOM or Noble Hierarch I ALWAYS drop MOM is there any reason I should be dropping Noble T1 instead?
And since I'm an impatient person When I drop Knight of The Reliquary (he's probably a 3/3 4/4) I usually am attacking with him next turn and not using his ability to make him bigger should I be more focused on his utility until he is bigger? Thinking i should definetely get him out of Lightning Bolt range.
Yes, it is very much worth using mom aggressively, take elves, although a resolved Umezawa's Jitte can quite honestly take over the game for you, all they need do is resolve a Wirewood Symbiote to stop you (block with random dude #1, return before damage), sometimes getting that extra damage in is worth it, especially if it wins you the game, putting a quick 2-3 turn clock on your opponent with a massive Knight of the Reliquary or Terravore can easily win you the game if they can't answer it with removal
Mom Vs. Noble, honestly, if going blind, mom is probably better, decks with removal need to answer her, or they are going to end up with cards clogged in their hand, if you need mana NOW (say your going against Storm or Reanimator), then Noble is a better choice
In response to your last question, I usually swing with a knight, using a second (if I have it) to sac lands, I prefer keeping my forest/plains on the field just in case, sometimes using two knights to waste-lock a opponent out of the game is just as effective as 2 4/4 knights swinging
Been building Maverick for the GP in Atlanta at the end of June, and while I've been testing what I can locally (against UR Delver, Nic Fit, Aggro Loam, Dredge, etc), I'm looking for some advice on the build as I have it now.
I can see justification for Garruk Relentless. We already play a deck designed to stop aggression, so it's not too hard to protect him. With all the small creatures in the format, his second ability kills one of our opponent's dudes, and once he flips, all three of his abilities are relevant:
+1: Deathouch tokens make great blockers and attackers that can't be chump blocked. I'll admit you usually have attackers any that can't be chump blocked, and opposing Moms make these worse, but a token per turn is still pretty good.
-1: Sac a creature (probably a token or an extra mana dork) to go find any creature you want. This is a toolbox deck, we like this. At the very least it gets the rest of your Knights.
-3: Overrun is nice to have access to when you're ready to close out the game. Especially since in the late game you'll probably have lots of creatures in your graveyard. Because how else are you in the late game?
Oh he can also just be used to make an endless stream of 2/2 wolves. I like how flexible this guy is.
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Currently playing:
Legacy
GW(G/B) Maverick RRR Burn (G/B)G(G/R) Elves!
Building: Who knows?
EDH WR Jor Kadeen - 100% pimp URG Maelstrom Wanderer - rampramprampbomb.dec UG Prime Speaker Zegana Control UBR Gwendlyn di Corci and her band of Scantily Clad Women UR Pauper Gelectrode
I'm not sure what he's doing for the deck that the deck doesn't already have covered.
The 2/2 wolves is great for laying out threat after threat, but this deck already does that.
The removal is OK, but this deck already has swords and paths.
The deathtouch wolves are good against aggro decks, except this deck already has that.
The tutor for a creature is nice, except this deck already has that effect.
The overrun is nice, but it seems like overkill.
The main argument I see for running a card like this is the mirror, but I feel like there are better cards out there. All that being said, I was sincerely interested in the OP's thoughts for including the card. It looks to me like it's a win-more card, but maybe he has testing or analysis that I'm missing.
Garruk looks pretty bad in this deck. What's the reasoning behind it?
I'm guessing that the OP was referring to the fact that in the last week, 4 out of 4 GW Zenith/Mav decks that have made top 8 at 100+ man tournaments have been packing 1 Garruk Relentless.
3 in LCL (link posted 1 page ago), the highest being 2nd place, and then again in BOM 6 (700+ people). Marc Duran being the individual who placed 2nd at LCL and top 8 at BOM.
He was also running a 5th swords (aka 1st path) which (imo) is a testament to how good creature removal is in the current meta, which also speaks to the value of Garruk Relentless.
I agree he's not all that and a bag of chips, but at worst he pumps out bodies to attack with (largely inline with your Maverick's primary strategy), and at best he removes a problematic creature, and then lets you tutor for the hate bear you need to hose your opponent (more valuable if you aren't running Fauna Shaman).
Again, just trying to help answer your question about why Garruk Relentless is being discussed, not necessarily advocating that he's a staple.
So I've been bouncing some ideas of some intelligent people and this is where I'm at right now. I think Fauna Shaman is the direction we want to take this deck.
Fauna Shaman seems... interesting. I'm not entirely convinced of it yet though. Do you ever feel like it's too slow and you can't get your desired creature onto the battlefield fast enough?
Anyway, Garruk is cool, but I think Elspeth more or less does the same job. She can also spam bodies, and there have been more than a few occasions where I've topdecked Elspeth late-game and won instantly with her second ability on one of my massive Knights. I personally would rather use another Elspeth instead of a singleton Garruk, if I had the room.
I'm guessing that the OP was referring to the fact that in the last week, 4 out of 4 GW Zenith/Mav decks that have made top 8 at 100+ man tournaments have been packing 1 Garruk Relentless.
3 in LCL (link posted 1 page ago), the highest being 2nd place, and then again in BOM 6 (700+ people). Marc Duran being the individual who placed 2nd at LCL and top 8 at BOM.
He was also running a 5th swords (aka 1st path) which (imo) is a testament to how good creature removal is in the current meta, which also speaks to the value of Garruk Relentless.
I agree he's not all that and a bag of chips, but at worst he pumps out bodies to attack with (largely inline with your Maverick's primary strategy), and at best he removes a problematic creature, and then lets you tutor for the hate bear you need to hose your opponent (more valuable if you aren't running Fauna Shaman).
Again, just trying to help answer your question about why Garruk Relentless is being discussed, not necessarily advocating that he's a staple.
Right, like I mentioned in my earlier post: I'm just opening the door to legacy. I don't have a whole lot of experience with the format aside from what I've read and watched - and therefore the deck is built mostly from what I've seen work in the past.
Garruk has been marginal - but his ability to serve as quasi-removal has been useful from time to time. Killing Moms, Delvers, Confidants, etc.
I've never been too terribly impressed by him, but he does have merit from time to time. He reinforces what the deck already does, but is perhaps more versatile.
As for the Path to Exile in the sideboard, I've almost been debating a second there. Perhaps I'm just uncomfortable with the deck, but I find the lack of real removal to be rough sometimes.
Another sideboard I haven't been impressed by has been Purify the Grave - I saw a few in some Maverick decks earlier this month and wanted to see how they worked. I might try a Tormod's Crypt instead of one of those.
purify is point removal for the grave to fight decks that do not rely on the entire graveyard but on certain cards in your graveyard like reanimator.
Right, and I can see its application as such - Just trying to decide if it's better than some of the other 'grave-hate' available to Maverick. Purify is nice in that it's relevant even through discard and is instant speed, but otherwise I'm not entirely sure.
Here's the Maverick deck I've been working on and planning on playing in the up coming local Legacy event. Hoping to have this list done, I'm very close.
Is Elspeth less popular than before? Up above I see a list with one, but I remember two used to be often seen, and I see a lot of lists these days not running her at all. What's the justification here? She just seems too good not to run to me
I like the Ulvenwald Tracker, still haven't given it in a try in my local scene and I think I'll have too soon.
Also I wrote an article on Maverick / adapting it to the current meta (here) and I think we are going to have adapt to accommodate for Sneak Attack / Show and Tell decks. What do you guys think our outs are? Pithing Needles??
Fauna Shaman is good but not that good without loyal retainers.
In defense of fauna shaman I run 1 md to compliment a sb metamorph against show and tell and reanimator decks that use untargetable fatties.
She has strait won me games that no other card in the deck would've pulled off.
That scg list is kinda interesting, cutting elspeth for garruk relentless is a first if I remember correctly. Garruk is certainly better against quick aggro decks and mirror.
no bops or sylvan library either which I think is a first for a top 8 decklist in a while.
In defense of fauna shaman I run 1 md to compliment a sb metamorph against show and tell and reanimator decks that use untargetable fatties.
She has strait won me games that no other card in the deck would've pulled off.
That scg list is kinda interesting, cutting elspeth for garruk relentless is a first if I remember correctly. Garruk is certainly better against quick aggro decks and mirror.
no bops or sylvan library either which I think is a first for a top 8 decklist in a while.
I tried Garruk for a while and didn't like it... though my meta didn't have any opposing Maverick decks so perhaps it's time.
I like the Ulvenwald Tracker, still haven't given it in a try in my local scene and I think I'll have too soon.
Also I wrote an article on Maverick / adapting it to the current meta (here) and I think we are going to have adapt to accommodate for Sneak Attack / Show and Tell decks. What do you guys think our outs are? Pithing Needles??
I was thinking phyrexian revoker, since you can toutor for it with the shaman when necessary & protect it with mom..
Also, good article man! Have you changed your list at all since you'd written it? My list looks nearly identical except I have Linvala main instead of elspeth (testing) and also a gaea's cradle.
I saw you mentioned adding Ulvenwald Tracker. What would you plan to cut? The singleton Aven? Also, did you not feel cradle is necessary?
I was thinking phyrexian revoker, since you can toutor for it with the shaman when necessary & protect it with mom..
Also, good article man! Have you changed your list at all since you'd written it? My list looks nearly identical except I have Linvala main instead of elspeth (testing) and also a gaea's cradle.
I saw you mentioned adding Ulvenwald Tracker. What would you plan to cut? The singleton Aven? Also, did you not feel cradle is necessary?
Cradle was lack luster and felt like a win more card. It enabled some cool tricks but I prefer reliability and resiliency. I'm not sure what I'd take out of the Ulvenwald Tracker... probably the Mindcensor or maybe one of the Qasali Pridemages.
Yes, it is very much worth using mom aggressively, take elves, although a resolved Umezawa's Jitte can quite honestly take over the game for you, all they need do is resolve a Wirewood Symbiote to stop you (block with random dude #1, return before damage), sometimes getting that extra damage in is worth it, especially if it wins you the game, putting a quick 2-3 turn clock on your opponent with a massive Knight of the Reliquary or Terravore can easily win you the game if they can't answer it with removal
Mom Vs. Noble, honestly, if going blind, mom is probably better, decks with removal need to answer her, or they are going to end up with cards clogged in their hand, if you need mana NOW (say your going against Storm or Reanimator), then Noble is a better choice
In response to your last question, I usually swing with a knight, using a second (if I have it) to sac lands, I prefer keeping my forest/plains on the field just in case, sometimes using two knights to waste-lock a opponent out of the game is just as effective as 2 4/4 knights swinging
3 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Sylvan Library
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
2 Purify the Grave
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Life from the Loam
1 Stony Silence
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Choke
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Again, the goal right now is to get this ready for the GP - so I'm looking to keep it pretty open to a range of decks.
[Developing] 430+ Peasant Cube Thread --- [and on Cube Cobra]
+1: Deathouch tokens make great blockers and attackers that can't be chump blocked. I'll admit you usually have attackers any that can't be chump blocked, and opposing Moms make these worse, but a token per turn is still pretty good.
-1: Sac a creature (probably a token or an extra mana dork) to go find any creature you want. This is a toolbox deck, we like this. At the very least it gets the rest of your Knights.
-3: Overrun is nice to have access to when you're ready to close out the game. Especially since in the late game you'll probably have lots of creatures in your graveyard. Because how else are you in the late game?
Oh he can also just be used to make an endless stream of 2/2 wolves. I like how flexible this guy is.
Currently playing:
GW(G/B) Maverick
RRR Burn
(G/B)G(G/R) Elves!
Building: Who knows?
EDH
WR Jor Kadeen - 100% pimp
URG Maelstrom Wanderer - rampramprampbomb.dec
UG Prime Speaker Zegana Control
UBR Gwendlyn di Corci and her band of Scantily Clad Women
UR Pauper Gelectrode
Modern/Casual
WU Acid Trip
WURZedruu's Didgeridoo
ThePrevailer on The Source, MTGO, and Cockatrice
The 2/2 wolves is great for laying out threat after threat, but this deck already does that.
The removal is OK, but this deck already has swords and paths.
The deathtouch wolves are good against aggro decks, except this deck already has that.
The tutor for a creature is nice, except this deck already has that effect.
The overrun is nice, but it seems like overkill.
The main argument I see for running a card like this is the mirror, but I feel like there are better cards out there. All that being said, I was sincerely interested in the OP's thoughts for including the card. It looks to me like it's a win-more card, but maybe he has testing or analysis that I'm missing.
I'm guessing that the OP was referring to the fact that in the last week, 4 out of 4 GW Zenith/Mav decks that have made top 8 at 100+ man tournaments have been packing 1 Garruk Relentless.
3 in LCL (link posted 1 page ago), the highest being 2nd place, and then again in BOM 6 (700+ people). Marc Duran being the individual who placed 2nd at LCL and top 8 at BOM.
He was also running a 5th swords (aka 1st path) which (imo) is a testament to how good creature removal is in the current meta, which also speaks to the value of Garruk Relentless.
I agree he's not all that and a bag of chips, but at worst he pumps out bodies to attack with (largely inline with your Maverick's primary strategy), and at best he removes a problematic creature, and then lets you tutor for the hate bear you need to hose your opponent (more valuable if you aren't running Fauna Shaman).
Again, just trying to help answer your question about why Garruk Relentless is being discussed, not necessarily advocating that he's a staple.
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Fauna Shaman
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Aven Mindcensor
Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Choke
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Path to Exile
1 Gideon Jura
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Linvala Keeper of Silence
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Ethersworn Canonist
Still need to work out some kinks and determine what's needed but this is where I'm starting.
Currently playing:
M13 Draft
GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD)
GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
Anyway, Garruk is cool, but I think Elspeth more or less does the same job. She can also spam bodies, and there have been more than a few occasions where I've topdecked Elspeth late-game and won instantly with her second ability on one of my massive Knights. I personally would rather use another Elspeth instead of a singleton Garruk, if I had the room.
WBGJunk TokensGBW
Multiplayer:
WWWLuminarch StonebladeWWW
BBBMono-Black ControlBBB
GRGKessig PredatorsGRG
Right, like I mentioned in my earlier post: I'm just opening the door to legacy. I don't have a whole lot of experience with the format aside from what I've read and watched - and therefore the deck is built mostly from what I've seen work in the past.
Garruk has been marginal - but his ability to serve as quasi-removal has been useful from time to time. Killing Moms, Delvers, Confidants, etc.
I've never been too terribly impressed by him, but he does have merit from time to time. He reinforces what the deck already does, but is perhaps more versatile.
As for the Path to Exile in the sideboard, I've almost been debating a second there. Perhaps I'm just uncomfortable with the deck, but I find the lack of real removal to be rough sometimes.
Another sideboard I haven't been impressed by has been Purify the Grave - I saw a few in some Maverick decks earlier this month and wanted to see how they worked. I might try a Tormod's Crypt instead of one of those.
[Developing] 430+ Peasant Cube Thread --- [and on Cube Cobra]
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Right, and I can see its application as such - Just trying to decide if it's better than some of the other 'grave-hate' available to Maverick.
Purify is nice in that it's relevant even through discard and is instant speed, but otherwise I'm not entirely sure.
[Developing] 430+ Peasant Cube Thread --- [and on Cube Cobra]
WBGJunk TokensGBW
Multiplayer:
WWWLuminarch StonebladeWWW
BBBMono-Black ControlBBB
GRGKessig PredatorsGRG
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
Equipment
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth Knight-Errant
Lands
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswepth Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Life from the Loam
2 Gut Shot
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Gideon Jura
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Harmonic Sliver or Path to Exile
I've been thinking on Dropping...
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
For
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Aven Mindcensor
Any thoughts or suggestion?. Also hoping to get the 4th Noble Hierarch to replace the Birds of Paradise.
Cheers!.
:symu::symw:UW Flash:symu::symw:
Modern
:symu::symw:UW Tempo:symw::symu:
:symgw:GW Liege:symgw:
Legacy
:symg::symw:Maverick:symw::symg:
:symb::symu:ANT:symu::symb:
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
Instants
1 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
Legendary Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Legendary Creatures
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Garruk Relentless
Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Basic Lands
3 Forest
1 Plains
Lands
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor
Legendary Lands
1 Karakas
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Spike Feeder
4 Purify the Grave
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gideon Jura
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
UPDATE: Top 4.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Also I wrote an article on Maverick / adapting it to the current meta (here) and I think we are going to have adapt to accommodate for Sneak Attack / Show and Tell decks. What do you guys think our outs are? Pithing Needles??
In defense of fauna shaman I run 1 md to compliment a sb metamorph against show and tell and reanimator decks that use untargetable fatties.
She has strait won me games that no other card in the deck would've pulled off.
That scg list is kinda interesting, cutting elspeth for garruk relentless is a first if I remember correctly. Garruk is certainly better against quick aggro decks and mirror.
no bops or sylvan library either which I think is a first for a top 8 decklist in a while.
I tried Garruk for a while and didn't like it... though my meta didn't have any opposing Maverick decks so perhaps it's time.
I was thinking phyrexian revoker, since you can toutor for it with the shaman when necessary & protect it with mom..
Also, good article man! Have you changed your list at all since you'd written it? My list looks nearly identical except I have Linvala main instead of elspeth (testing) and also a gaea's cradle.
I saw you mentioned adding Ulvenwald Tracker. What would you plan to cut? The singleton Aven? Also, did you not feel cradle is necessary?
Cradle was lack luster and felt like a win more card. It enabled some cool tricks but I prefer reliability and resiliency. I'm not sure what I'd take out of the Ulvenwald Tracker... probably the Mindcensor or maybe one of the Qasali Pridemages.
Glad you enjoyed the article, thanks man