Tarmogoyf, in particular, has never been worse for as long as I've been playing Legacy. He's still the biggest dude you can get for G1 most of the time, but he's underwhelming in a lot of situations. I've killed a lot of Goyfs post-combat (after losing a Germ token) merely by putting Treasure Cruise on the stack.
Meanwhile I think Knight of the Reliquary has never been as good as he is right now, as long as I'm not playing my own heavy Delve spells. Never before has so little, and such weak, graveyard hate been played: "one hit kill" Knights haven't been seen in a quite a stretch. I'm a little worried that this Monastery Mentor might flood the board with chumps and make Knights worse, but maybe that will finally give me a reason to play Illness in the Ranks.
Thalia is still one of the best cards in the deck, to some extent defining it. She's great in the Storm decks that have been picking up speed, and help ensure that the guy who just Treasure Cruised isn't going to be able to just dump his fresh cards and continue the chain quickly enough to matter. Once fewer people start slinging Miracles, Maverick might rise again. I would like that very much, but I don't know how long it could last.
First off thanks to those who gave feedback on the Thalia question.
I think I could have stated myself more clearly in my proposal as I was not suggesting a shift towards junk strategies, but rather pumping up our other hate bear options in Mav to facilitate more efficient use of removal and zeniths. Thalia is obviously a powerful tool, but I suppose i feel she's more optimal in D&T and more hindering in Mav at least at the moment.
More broadly what I may have been getting at is that Mav has more potential now, it seems, to make a comeback then in recent seasons, however I cant help but think that the deck needs to 'trim the fat' from past 75s we've known. After testing a build with no Thalias and bumping the Teeg, spirit, and Pridemage count the only 2 things I can say I've encountered is that our storm and Miracles matchup seems to improve slightly (Running 2 ethersworn canonist in the board btw) and our sneak and show matchup becomes quite a bit worse. Obviously I can only gather so much info, but it seems that there's an optimal Mav shell beneath the surface for the current meta and I thought I'd provoke some suggestions for the future of Maverick.
First off thanks to those who gave feedback on the Thalia question.
I think I could have stated myself more clearly in my proposal as I was not suggesting a shift towards junk strategies, but rather pumping up our other hate bear options in Mav to facilitate more efficient use of removal and zeniths. Thalia is obviously a powerful tool, but I suppose i feel she's more optimal in D&T and more hindering in Mav at least at the moment.
More broadly what I may have been getting at is that Mav has more potential now, it seems, to make a comeback then in recent seasons, however I cant help but think that the deck needs to 'trim the fat' from past 75s we've known. After testing a build with no Thalias and bumping the Teeg, spirit, and Pridemage count the only 2 things I can say I've encountered is that our storm and Miracles matchup seems to improve slightly (Running 2 ethersworn canonist in the board btw) and our sneak and show matchup becomes quite a bit worse. Obviously I can only gather so much info, but it seems that there's an optimal Mav shell beneath the surface for the current meta and I thought I'd provoke some suggestions for the future of Maverick.
As your testing shows. Cutting thalia makes you worse against combo decks. Running Teegs/spirits instead of thalia means you lose out the first strike while weakening your combo matchups and miracles. What is the gain you're imagining from cutting the 2/1 first strike for a 2/2 the counteracts your green suns?
Cutting Thalia usually means replacing her with spells. Replacing Thalia with Teegs/Spirits/Canonists does not make sense at all.
I agree with basically everything Lormordor says. Nobody is respecting the grave, leading to Knights being easily double digit later on. My issue is evasion: stopping delver and/or flying over a clogged board.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Weird list but very effective for the meta obviiously. Way to go David!
What about his list was not typical of a normal Maverick list? I was actually going to build my first Legacy deck based on the list he played. I understand that decks like this need to be tuned to your meta or the meta you expect but what would a typical starting point for the deck look like? I really like the Thoughseize in the side so I guess I'm looking to get into a Junk Maverick type of thing? I'm new to Legacy in case that wasn't evident
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Now that UR delver isn't as widespread, is it still worth playing Sword of Fire and Ice? I've been thinking about switching it for Feast and Famine. I still don't know legacy that well, so I'm not sure if that's the right decision
Now that UR delver isn't as widespread, is it still worth playing Sword of Fire and Ice? I've been thinking about switching it for Feast and Famine. I still don't know legacy that well, so I'm not sure if that's the right decision
The 3 popular swords are all used for different but very specific reasons. Its not as much a "meta" call as it is a "deck construction call"
For example: if you True-Name is bad for your deck and you need more ways to get past it Fire/Ice is good. But if you already have a lot of evasion, Light and Shadow allows you to get ahead in the race assuming you were behind.
Maybe true-name is not a problem for you, but grindy decks are? Fire/Ice and Feast/Famine are both good things to allow you to maintain card parity vs those decks. Fire/Ice is better at getting ahead on card advantage while Feast/Famine is better at getting ahead on tempo (because you can start casting 2 things a turn)
If you have a hard time vs Death and Taxes or want to transform into a grindy deck vs fair decks, Light and Shadow is a strong trump while if you want to have a powerful must answer threat vs miracles Fire/Ice is very good at making even Birds of Paradise a fast clock.
Have a hard time keeping creatures in play? Light and Shadow
Have an easy time gumming up the board? Fire and Ice
etc...
Yes, there is a meta call as well--but its much more important that you use the sword that best leverages the strategy your deck is already employing.
I'll be playing for the first time since the GP this upcoming weekend (been a lull in the region in terms of events and my own availability). I really hope UR delver wanes in popularity but also see the deck as being strong. It's not like TC made the entire deck...it just pushed a style of UR delver to the top. More traditional tempo UR will certainly remain.
What fills the void? I'm fearing combo and tempo after a larger representation of midrange/fair stuff.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Now that UR delver isn't as widespread, is it still worth playing Sword of Fire and Ice? I've been thinking about switching it for Feast and Famine. I still don't know legacy that well, so I'm not sure if that's the right decision
The 3 popular swords are all used for different but very specific reasons. Its not as much a "meta" call as it is a "deck construction call"
For example: if you True-Name is bad for your deck and you need more ways to get past it Fire/Ice is good. But if you already have a lot of evasion, Light and Shadow allows you to get ahead in the race assuming you were behind.
Maybe true-name is not a problem for you, but grindy decks are? Fire/Ice and Feast/Famine are both good things to allow you to maintain card parity vs those decks. Fire/Ice is better at getting ahead on card advantage while Feast/Famine is better at getting ahead on tempo (because you can start casting 2 things a turn)
If you have a hard time vs Death and Taxes or want to transform into a grindy deck vs fair decks, Light and Shadow is a strong trump while if you want to have a powerful must answer threat vs miracles Fire/Ice is very good at making even Birds of Paradise a fast clock.
Have a hard time keeping creatures in play? Light and Shadow
Have an easy time gumming up the board? Fire and Ice
etc...
Yes, there is a meta call as well--but its much more important that you use the sword that best leverages the strategy your deck is already employing.
I guess that makes sense. I've always looked at the swords as protection first and the ability is a bonus. I still haven't played enough games of legacy to know which ability fits my deck best. Sneak & show seems almost unwinnable to me since I don't have a karakas to keep emrakul off the table. Here's what I've been playing for the last month or two
I am currently trying to figure out a reason why you'd run Tasigur over Tombstalker in pretty much any deck including and outside of Maverick.
The reason is because he:
-Doesn't cost BB (which is good for BUx that play TNN or Ux cards)
-Comes out T3 easily compared to T3 ideally
-can generate easy card advantage at instant speed
The karakas problem may be enough to keep him out, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he showed up competitively. People hardcast FoW all the time, getting free cards while being immune to 2/3rds of the removal is good. The fact that it is runnable in UBx and BGx is attractive. You also can use him to dodge cascades, use him next to Pernicious Deed, and get around counterbalance; which all make him nice in a Goyf slot.
I am currently trying to figure out a reason why you'd run Tasigur over Tombstalker in pretty much any deck including and outside of Maverick.
The reason is because he:
-Doesn't cost BB (which is good for BUx that play TNN or Ux cards)
-Comes out T3 easily compared to T3 ideally
-can generate easy card advantage at instant speed
The karakas problem may be enough to keep him out, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he showed up competitively. People hardcast FoW all the time, getting free cards while being immune to 2/3rds of the removal is good. The fact that it is runnable in UBx and BGx is attractive. You also can use him to dodge cascades, use him next to Pernicious Deed, and get around counterbalance; which all make him nice in a Goyf slot.
Looks like a big win-more. My opinions:
- Delve cost will usually come at the expense of KotR being a threat
- STP/PTE/Stifle in the meta may negate the usefulness of this guy
- Not an immediate threat/doesn't do anything to suddenly impact the game (the only exception to this rule is Progenitus due to NO-->Pro being an option if you wanted spice)
- Not green (can't zenith or NO)
The biggest question I pose is the tried and true "what do you cut for him?" with the follow-up "does his inclusion > card you cut = makes the deck better?"
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Now that UR delver isn't as widespread, is it still worth playing Sword of Fire and Ice? I've been thinking about switching it for Feast and Famine. I still don't know legacy that well, so I'm not sure if that's the right decision
The 3 popular swords are all used for different but very specific reasons. Its not as much a "meta" call as it is a "deck construction call"
For example: if you True-Name is bad for your deck and you need more ways to get past it Fire/Ice is good. But if you already have a lot of evasion, Light and Shadow allows you to get ahead in the race assuming you were behind.
Maybe true-name is not a problem for you, but grindy decks are? Fire/Ice and Feast/Famine are both good things to allow you to maintain card parity vs those decks. Fire/Ice is better at getting ahead on card advantage while Feast/Famine is better at getting ahead on tempo (because you can start casting 2 things a turn)
If you have a hard time vs Death and Taxes or want to transform into a grindy deck vs fair decks, Light and Shadow is a strong trump while if you want to have a powerful must answer threat vs miracles Fire/Ice is very good at making even Birds of Paradise a fast clock.
Have a hard time keeping creatures in play? Light and Shadow
Have an easy time gumming up the board? Fire and Ice
etc...
Yes, there is a meta call as well--but its much more important that you use the sword that best leverages the strategy your deck is already employing.
I guess that makes sense. I've always looked at the swords as protection first and the ability is a bonus.
I used to think this until I realized that that made Sword of Body and Mind, Sword of Light and Shadow the best equipment swords (which they aren't imho)
-----
Sneak & Show is very favorable to Maverick *because* of Karakas + Knight hard countering Show and Tell. When they have to Show & Tell => Sneak Attack => Not Griselbrand, their deck is slowed down so much that you just overwhelm them. Remove Karakas and they just go lol Turn 2 Show and Tell.
The reason is because he:
-Doesn't cost BB (which is good for BUx that play TNN or Ux cards)
-Comes out T3 easily compared to T3 ideally
-can generate easy card advantage at instant speed
The karakas problem may be enough to keep him out, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he showed up competitively. People hardcast FoW all the time, getting free cards while being immune to 2/3rds of the removal is good. The fact that it is runnable in UBx and BGx is attractive. You also can use him to dodge cascades, use him next to Pernicious Deed, and get around counterbalance; which all make him nice in a Goyf slot.
Looks like a big win-more. My opinions:
- Delve cost will usually come at the expense of KotR being a threat
- STP/PTE/Stifle in the meta may negate the usefulness of this guy
- Not an immediate threat/doesn't do anything to suddenly impact the game (the only exception to this rule is Progenitus due to NO-->Pro being an option if you wanted spice)
- Not green (can't zenith or NO)
The biggest question I pose is the tried and true "what do you cut for him?" with the follow-up "does his inclusion > card you cut = makes the deck better?"
(quoting may be messed up)
I should've mentioned; I think he's bad in *maverick*; but the guy I responded to said "I can't see why you'd even run it outside of maverick"; which I think is short sighted. Even just running him next to Pernicious Deed makes him rather attractive IMO. Maverick, however, fits none of the criterion to make him good:
-Your cards don't go to the grave easily (permanents, low removal counts, GSZ skips it.)
-You don't want to run black very much, so I don't see why he's join in unless you needed more beater slots (which I could see maybe.)
-His attraction is that he fills a beater role *without needing green.* This is good because previously you needed Goyf, KotR, or BSK; but Tasigur allows you a neat opportunity for a splash-black to be enough for the beater slot. E.G. UBx. I could see him run in Junk/Jund next to Goyfs as well; but KotR feels like a severe non-bo.
EDIT: As in, I basically agree with you, but think he could be legacy worthy over time.
I don't think he's going to cut it at all in Maverick, and I'm surprised that he's even really mentioned. The only trick I could think of using him here would be in one of those decks with a Gaea's Cradle to go crazy with his ability. I don't see how he's worth it.
This is a Delve card that's vulnerable to Karakas. One of the fair decks on the other side of the table is likely to be Death and Taxes. It probably only takes one Mom-proof bounce to ensure that this particular threat never gets on the stack again. Even Miracles decks pack Karakas half the time.
On the subject of Delve-Dudes; I've been enamored by Hooting Mandrill's trample next to Jitte/SoFaI. Not enough to test it yet :p, but given that the only thing in legacy that has a big enough butt for the Mandrills is Goyf (which is only sometimes true, especially with equips involved) I think he may have the ability to close games against fair decks (and dodge CB) well enough to find a home in Maverick or Junk, curious if anyone here has used him/that interaction yet.
Trample is very valuable with the equipment. So is double-strike. I'm debating if I wanna go back to Mirran Crusaders -- especially if BUG comes back into the mix. The other option is Siege Rhino, who is a goddamn tank of a 4/5.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Hey guys I'm getting into the format with this deck and have started buying pieces (duel lands, creatures). However I was wondering what possible lands I could sub in replacing Gaea's Cradle for budget reasons? I was thinking maybe Cavern of Souls but Wasteland...speaking of which is there anything I can put in place of wasteland too?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Meanwhile I think Knight of the Reliquary has never been as good as he is right now, as long as I'm not playing my own heavy Delve spells. Never before has so little, and such weak, graveyard hate been played: "one hit kill" Knights haven't been seen in a quite a stretch. I'm a little worried that this Monastery Mentor might flood the board with chumps and make Knights worse, but maybe that will finally give me a reason to play Illness in the Ranks.
Thalia is still one of the best cards in the deck, to some extent defining it. She's great in the Storm decks that have been picking up speed, and help ensure that the guy who just Treasure Cruised isn't going to be able to just dump his fresh cards and continue the chain quickly enough to matter. Once fewer people start slinging Miracles, Maverick might rise again. I would like that very much, but I don't know how long it could last.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
I think I could have stated myself more clearly in my proposal as I was not suggesting a shift towards junk strategies, but rather pumping up our other hate bear options in Mav to facilitate more efficient use of removal and zeniths. Thalia is obviously a powerful tool, but I suppose i feel she's more optimal in D&T and more hindering in Mav at least at the moment.
More broadly what I may have been getting at is that Mav has more potential now, it seems, to make a comeback then in recent seasons, however I cant help but think that the deck needs to 'trim the fat' from past 75s we've known. After testing a build with no Thalias and bumping the Teeg, spirit, and Pridemage count the only 2 things I can say I've encountered is that our storm and Miracles matchup seems to improve slightly (Running 2 ethersworn canonist in the board btw) and our sneak and show matchup becomes quite a bit worse. Obviously I can only gather so much info, but it seems that there's an optimal Mav shell beneath the surface for the current meta and I thought I'd provoke some suggestions for the future of Maverick.
As your testing shows. Cutting thalia makes you worse against combo decks. Running Teegs/spirits instead of thalia means you lose out the first strike while weakening your combo matchups and miracles. What is the gain you're imagining from cutting the 2/1 first strike for a 2/2 the counteracts your green suns?
Cutting Thalia usually means replacing her with spells. Replacing Thalia with Teegs/Spirits/Canonists does not make sense at all.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
What about his list was not typical of a normal Maverick list? I was actually going to build my first Legacy deck based on the list he played. I understand that decks like this need to be tuned to your meta or the meta you expect but what would a typical starting point for the deck look like? I really like the Thoughseize in the side so I guess I'm looking to get into a Junk Maverick type of thing? I'm new to Legacy in case that wasn't evident
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
I am currently trying to figure out a reason why you'd run Tasigur over Tombstalker in pretty much any deck including and outside of Maverick.
The 3 popular swords are all used for different but very specific reasons. Its not as much a "meta" call as it is a "deck construction call"
For example: if you True-Name is bad for your deck and you need more ways to get past it Fire/Ice is good. But if you already have a lot of evasion, Light and Shadow allows you to get ahead in the race assuming you were behind.
Maybe true-name is not a problem for you, but grindy decks are? Fire/Ice and Feast/Famine are both good things to allow you to maintain card parity vs those decks. Fire/Ice is better at getting ahead on card advantage while Feast/Famine is better at getting ahead on tempo (because you can start casting 2 things a turn)
If you have a hard time vs Death and Taxes or want to transform into a grindy deck vs fair decks, Light and Shadow is a strong trump while if you want to have a powerful must answer threat vs miracles Fire/Ice is very good at making even Birds of Paradise a fast clock.
Have a hard time keeping creatures in play? Light and Shadow
Have an easy time gumming up the board? Fire and Ice
etc...
Yes, there is a meta call as well--but its much more important that you use the sword that best leverages the strategy your deck is already employing.
What fills the void? I'm fearing combo and tempo after a larger representation of midrange/fair stuff.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I guess that makes sense. I've always looked at the swords as protection first and the ability is a bonus. I still haven't played enough games of legacy to know which ability fits my deck best. Sneak & show seems almost unwinnable to me since I don't have a karakas to keep emrakul off the table. Here's what I've been playing for the last month or two
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Containment Priest
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor
Equipment
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
3 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Temple Garden
1 Scrubland
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
3 Duress
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
I started off on McDarby's list and have been changing it to my personal tastes
The reason is because he:
-Doesn't cost BB (which is good for BUx that play TNN or Ux cards)
-Comes out T3 easily compared to T3 ideally
-can generate easy card advantage at instant speed
The karakas problem may be enough to keep him out, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he showed up competitively. People hardcast FoW all the time, getting free cards while being immune to 2/3rds of the removal is good. The fact that it is runnable in UBx and BGx is attractive. You also can use him to dodge cascades, use him next to Pernicious Deed, and get around counterbalance; which all make him nice in a Goyf slot.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
Looks like a big win-more. My opinions:
- Delve cost will usually come at the expense of KotR being a threat
- STP/PTE/Stifle in the meta may negate the usefulness of this guy
- Not an immediate threat/doesn't do anything to suddenly impact the game (the only exception to this rule is Progenitus due to NO-->Pro being an option if you wanted spice)
- Not green (can't zenith or NO)
The biggest question I pose is the tried and true "what do you cut for him?" with the follow-up "does his inclusion > card you cut = makes the deck better?"
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I used to think this until I realized that that made Sword of Body and Mind, Sword of Light and Shadow the best equipment swords (which they aren't imho)
-----
Sneak & Show is very favorable to Maverick *because* of Karakas + Knight hard countering Show and Tell. When they have to Show & Tell => Sneak Attack => Not Griselbrand, their deck is slowed down so much that you just overwhelm them. Remove Karakas and they just go lol Turn 2 Show and Tell.
(quoting may be messed up)
I should've mentioned; I think he's bad in *maverick*; but the guy I responded to said "I can't see why you'd even run it outside of maverick"; which I think is short sighted. Even just running him next to Pernicious Deed makes him rather attractive IMO. Maverick, however, fits none of the criterion to make him good:
-Your cards don't go to the grave easily (permanents, low removal counts, GSZ skips it.)
-You don't want to run black very much, so I don't see why he's join in unless you needed more beater slots (which I could see maybe.)
-His attraction is that he fills a beater role *without needing green.* This is good because previously you needed Goyf, KotR, or BSK; but Tasigur allows you a neat opportunity for a splash-black to be enough for the beater slot. E.G. UBx. I could see him run in Junk/Jund next to Goyfs as well; but KotR feels like a severe non-bo.
EDIT: As in, I basically agree with you, but think he could be legacy worthy over time.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
This is a Delve card that's vulnerable to Karakas. One of the fair decks on the other side of the table is likely to be Death and Taxes. It probably only takes one Mom-proof bounce to ensure that this particular threat never gets on the stack again. Even Miracles decks pack Karakas half the time.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod