So, I'm currently experimenting with alternatives to Surgical Extraction in the sideboard.
Most Jund lists seem to use it quite a bit, but in many games I've used it in it has felt like a dead card quite a bit. When it's in my deck there's quite a few times where I never want to draw it, but with it not in my sideboard I keep imagining situations where I could use it. What are the biggest benefits to using it exactly?
So, I'm currently experimenting with alternatives to Surgical Extraction in the sideboard.
Most Jund lists seem to use it quite a bit, but in many games I've used it in it has felt like a dead card quite a bit. When it's in my deck there's quite a few times where I never want to draw it, but with it not in my sideboard I keep imagining situations where I could use it. What are the biggest benefits to using it exactly?
If you side it in and find yourself hoping to not draw it, it's probable that you should not have sided it in. Whenever I bring it in, I'm almost always hoping to draw it (as I mentioned above, I'm going up to 3 for this reason). The graveyard-based attrition decks like Lands, Depths, Loam, etc., as well as Reanimator, are potentially very tough matchups for Jund and Surgical is one of the best cards you can have against them. It takes out their engines and/or their win conditions.
Surgical is also helpful against combo decks, particularly given your suite of discard spells. Against TES, taking out a Burning Wish can be backbreaking. Against Sneak and Show, removing one of their fatties is huge. Against ANT, hitting Infernal Tutor is great. Against Dredge, hitting bridges or their early dredger is gigantic.
It's not good against the combo decks that can attack at other angles, such as Elves for example. It's not good against any of the fair decks, either. But for most combo matchups, I want access to it, and for a couple matchups in particular, I always want to draw all of my Extractions.
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If you side it in and find yourself hoping to not draw it, it's probable that you should not have sided it in. Whenever I bring it in, I'm almost always hoping to draw it (as I mentioned above, I'm going up to 3 for this reason). The graveyard-based attrition decks like Lands, Depths, Loam, etc., as well as Reanimator, are potentially very tough matchups for Jund and Surgical is one of the best cards you can have against them. It takes out their engines and/or their win conditions.
Surgical is also helpful against combo decks, particularly given your suite of discard spells. Against TES, taking out a Burning Wish can be backbreaking. Against Sneak and Show, removing one of their fatties is huge. Against ANT, hitting Infernal Tutor is great. Against Dredge, hitting bridges or their early dredger is gigantic.
It's not good against the combo decks that can attack at other angles, such as Elves for example. It's not good against any of the fair decks, either. But for most combo matchups, I want access to it, and for a couple matchups in particular, I always want to draw all of my Extractions.
Fair enough. It helped a lot in the Storm matchups but when I brought it in vs. Sneak and Show and Reanimator it didn't help as much as I thought. It may just be that I didn't draw it at the right time since I was only running 2.
I've tried out Ensnaring Bridge and it has helped an absolutely immense amount, so I think I may replace a Nihil Spellbomb and a Pyroblast with 2 Extractions again.
hey guys. new legacy player here. decided on Jund and working to finish my deck now. i've read the thread re: punishing v. non-punishing and have a general idea on the pros / cons of each. what's the updated word on choosing between them?
do I need 4 wasteland, or does that depend on punishing v. non-punishing? can i get away with using a set of flats, and if so do i need to get rid of the mountain?
finally, must i pick up a sylvan library? how necessary is it?
hey guys. new legacy player here. decided on Jund and working to finish my deck now. i've read the thread re: punishing v. non-punishing and have a general idea on the pros / cons of each. what's the updated word on choosing between them?
do I need 4 wasteland, or does that depend on punishing v. non-punishing? can i get away with using a set of flats, and if so do i need to get rid of the mountain?
finally, must i pick up a sylvan library? how necessary is it?
thanks!
For a non-Punishing build this seems fine. You can definitely do 4 Wasteland with this list pretty easily.
I use 4 Verdant and 4 Marsh Flats and I've never had a problem. If you do that I would suggest playing 2 Swamps and 1 Forest. The lone Mountain is very nice vs. RUG Delver and these random lands decks that have been popping up but, as some in the thread have already discussed, you can play around it and don't need the one Mountain.
There are many lists both with and without Sylvan Library. In the grindier matchups it is one of your best cards. The fact that it looks 3 cards deep and can draw you extra cards each turn all for 2 mana is awesome. The fact that it grows your Goyf (usually) is icing on the top. I'm a large advocate for it, but many see it as a durdley card that doesn't do anything the turn it comes down. I would say to test it and, if you like it, keep it in.
Thinking about porting Modern to Legacy Jund, I realise I need the original duals, but I'm on the fence about buying and playing (mainly buying) Wastelands.
I'd like to play punishing Jund, and I was wondering if Wastelands are essential in that list.
I realise Deathrite into Wasteland is pretty broken, but that's not the most reliable interaction.
Well, Deathrite into Wasteland is an interaction that happens quite a bit, and the tempo play can really put you ahead. That being said, that's not the big reason it's in this deck. Having Wastelands provide you with a new plan of attack against certain decks. Jund punishes land heavy keeps/mulligans with Thoughtseize and can punish land light keeps/mulligans with Wasteland. Combine that with the fact that there are some strategies (Dark Depths+Thespian Stage, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, other Punishing Fire decks) that almost demand land destruction, it's pretty easy to see why Wasteland is played so much. Also, if you put a Life from the Loam in the deck, you can lock multiple Delver decks out of the game completely since they usually play no basics.
I would call land destruction in general an essential part of the deck and Wasteland is the most efficient way to do it.
I'm giving Jund another shot at SCG Somerset since I live like 20 minutes away from there. I adjusted the deck around hopefully it'll perform better along with me piloting the deck. With the banning of Deathrite Shaman in Modern, I have given up any aspirations in that format and decided to focus building backup decks in Legacy.
The sideboard is what I'm really on the fence about. I previously had Jitte mainboarded but I thought that Maelstrom pulse would be able to help cover what Abrupt Decay cannot hit. Choke Was really good but when I play tested it against a friend choke would only buy me a turn at most especially BUG, I thought maybe Pyroblast would be the better pick here. Golgari Charm is another card that's iffy for me, it's either that or Engineered Plague. I have Pithing Needle because Vial decks wrecked me so hard even when I had landlocked my opponent.
The sideboard is what I'm really on the fence about. I previously had Jitte mainboarded but I thought that Maelstrom pulse would be able to help cover what Abrupt Decay cannot hit. Choke Was really good but when I play tested it against a friend choke would only buy me a turn at most especially BUG, I thought maybe Pyroblast would be the better pick here. Golgari Charm is another card that's iffy for me, it's either that or Engineered Plague. I have Pithing Needle because Vial decks wrecked me so hard even when I had landlocked my opponent.
Minor bit of advice, but don't forget that you can use Pithing Needle in some of our worst match-ups like Storm (name LED), Sneak and Show (name Sneak Attack), etc. Even in favorable match-ups like UW Miracles, naming Top is great.
If you need room in your SB, I'm not a big fan of Choke. It's a win more card since most decks I bring it in against, I'm already favored (i.e. blue control).
Minor bit of advice, but don't forget that you can use Pithing Needle in some of our worst match-ups like Storm (name LED), Sneak and Show (name Sneak Attack), etc. Even in favorable match-ups like UW Miracles, naming Top is great.
Needle can't actually name LED. Well, it can, but it will do nothing. Needle doesn't stop mana abilities (Phyrexian Revoker does).
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Minor bit of advice, but don't forget that you can use Pithing Needle in some of our worst match-ups like Storm (name LED), Sneak and Show (name Sneak Attack), etc. Even in favorable match-ups like UW Miracles, naming Top is great.
Needle can't actually name LED. Well, it can, but it will do nothing. Needle doesn't stop mana abilities (Phyrexian Revoker does).
I've been experimenting with different combinations of cards mainboard and sideboard. I would like some explainations of the following mb setups.
1 Diabolic Edict MB
I have been seeing it a lot, is this just to have an answer to TNN or Sneak and Show in the mainboard?
4 Decay/ 3 Punishing / 2 Bolts
Why 2 Lightning Bolts? Is the 4 Decay+4 Fire not enough?
Also, I have been testing out Phyrexian Revoker and he has been extremely good. Though he cannot hit lands he provides a body that we can put pressure with. Do people prefer him or Pithing Needle or something else? (If I had the money I would probably run Chains of Mephistopheles in its place in my sideboard.)
I've been experimenting with different combinations of cards mainboard and sideboard. I would like some explainations of the following mb setups.
1 Diabolic Edict MB
I have been seeing it a lot, is this just to have an answer to TNN or Sneak and Show in the mainboard?
4 Decay/ 3 Punishing / 2 Bolts
Why 2 Lightning Bolts? Is the 4 Decay+4 Fire not enough?
Also, I have been testing out Phyrexian Revoker and he has been extremely good. Though he cannot hit lands he provides a body that we can put pressure with. Do people prefer him or Pithing Needle or something else? (If I had the money I would probably run Chains of Mephistopheles in its place in my sideboard.)
I still prefer Liliana as an answer to TNN/SnT targets instead of the edict.
I have 3 P. Fires and 2 bolts. The lightning bolts help for either early removal or winning goyf wars.
I'm not a fan of Revoker for three reasons:
1. It's a creature so it's a lot more vulnerable to things, with golgari charm showing up in my playgroup it isn't a good choice for me.
2. It doesn't allow me to shut down opposing fetch lands which helps.
3. Pithing needle is one mana so I can deploy them faster. I already have Sensei's Divining Top hogging mana as it is.
Thanks for tour quick reply.
I understand what you mean, I was considering adding a pitch of white for gp paris (2 scrubland and 4 spirit of the labyrinth)
As it's mentionned in the article, 70% of the top decks play brainstorm. And believe me, in France, people also like to play Storm (just check results of previous bom tournament).
Chains of Mephistopheles is a good card, but there's only one in sb against combo decks, 2 Sotl maindeck and 2 in sb is maybe the way to go if I take the risk to pitch white...
Why 2 Lightning Bolts? Is the 4 Decay+4 Fire not enough?
In a world without Mother of runes / Delver of secrets, maybe Bolts wouldn't be necessary; on the other hand, if you are on the draw against a turn 1 Mom / Delver, you could be in deep trouble: an active Mom nullifies every spot removal you got (and you got plenty of spot removal as a Jund player), while Delver decks can out-tempo your 2-CC removal by disrupting your mana and playing cheap counters.
Unfortunately, both Delver and Mom are widely played.
I actually tried a Bolt-less build some months ago, and it didn't work out at all.
My advice is to play 3 Lightning bolts in any Jund deck, and of course the full set of Bolts if you don't play Punishing.
The Delver one seems to only happen rarely, especially with Abrupt Decay in the deck. I do agree that the only time I want 1 mana removal is on the draw vs. Mom, but she's been pretty easy to play around for now. If those are the only reasons to play Bolt, then I'm happy to stay Bolt-less.
EDIT: Since you have a lot of experience with Chains of Mephistopheles, I would like to ask about that. I wanna take out the 2 Revokers in my board for 2 Chains when I have the money to buy them. How good were they? And what matchups do I bring both in against?
I guess the part you are referring to is this one: "Finally, I’d also consider splashing white for Spirit of the Labyrinth in Jund. Spirit Jund was a thing in Modern; why not Legacy?"
Frankly, this statement would push me to believe that the author isn't too experienced in Legacy format... if you wanna make a comparison between Legacy and Modern when considering a color splash, you absolutely HAVE to take Wasteland into account (and Stifle).
Asking "why not in Legacy?" without considering Wasteland (and Stifle) is way worse than (quoting the same author at the beginning of the same article) asking "why not Thoughtseize in place of Hymn in Team America?" without considering that Hymn also hit lands AND is better against Brainstorm.
This.
It's clear the author must play more Modern than Legacy, but with Wasteland prevalent, it'd be silly for Jund to go 4 colors. We already prey upon decks with Wasteland, so why become a victim?
Also as anakyn says, we already beat the control/brainstorm decks so I'm not really concerned with them.
Since you have a lot of experience with Chains of Mephistopheles, I would like to ask about that. I wanna take out the 2 Revokers in my board for 2 Chains when I have the money to buy them. How good were they? And what matchups do I bring both in against?
Chains are basically a house against any combo deck relying heavily on drawing effects: Omnitell, High tide (resolving Chains vs Tide is GG), Griselbrand decks, Elves. (maybe I forgot someone else)
They are incredibly strong against Shardless BUG too, since the main engine of that deck is card advantage through drawing a lot. Unfortunately they also play 4 Decays so it's not like they don't have answers... on the other hand, if they don't see a Decay or they've already used it, Chains will make you win very fast.
These are the matchups where the Chains are GREAT.
There are other matchups too where Chains are just "good", so you are siding them in only if there's enough space: I'm talking about decks with lots of cantripping (blue control, tempo, combo in general) where you like to play Chains a bit later (while you wanna play it early if you are facing the decks I listed before) because the difference between winning or losing can rely on the possibility of stopping a mid-late game cantrip from your opponent.
When I played 2 Chains (now I'm playing only 1 copy), I used to side them both vs the decks on the first list, and just one copy (or no copy at all if I had better cards to use) vs the decks on the second list.
This is what I suspected. Awesome, thank you so much! My next venture will definitely be buying 1-2 Chains for the decks in my area (LA has a massive amount of Sneak and Show, Deathblade, and ANT, which is why I had Revoker).
My next venture will definitely be buying 1-2 Chains for the decks in my area (LA has a massive amount of Sneak and Show, Deathblade, and ANT, which is why I had Revoker).
Well, honestly I'm not sure those decks are the best examples to justify acquiring a couple of Chains... it can be game-breaking for sure if you put it in with their Show & tell assuming they play Griselbrand (or also if you just manage to resolve it on your 2nd turn); on the other hand Revokers seem even better vs ANT naming LED (but both Revoker and Chains would be good here, even if they serve different purposes) while Chains seems just decent/good against Deathblade (better than Revoker though).
Oh, I forgot another matchup where Chains are absolutely amazing: Enchantress, no need to explain why.
I forgot to mention that there are a few die hard Elves players that frequent the Legacy shops in LA/my home shop. The card is a destroyer vs. them when I proxied it.
so does Spirit of the Labyrinth work in a non-punishing fire list? the mana isn't so weak there, and Marsh Flats become better as a fetchland (i only point that out because i'm playing 4 alongside 4 mires and 3 verdents -- an availability thing). and if we're adding white, do we add souls, too?
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Most Jund lists seem to use it quite a bit, but in many games I've used it in it has felt like a dead card quite a bit. When it's in my deck there's quite a few times where I never want to draw it, but with it not in my sideboard I keep imagining situations where I could use it. What are the biggest benefits to using it exactly?
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG
If you side it in and find yourself hoping to not draw it, it's probable that you should not have sided it in. Whenever I bring it in, I'm almost always hoping to draw it (as I mentioned above, I'm going up to 3 for this reason). The graveyard-based attrition decks like Lands, Depths, Loam, etc., as well as Reanimator, are potentially very tough matchups for Jund and Surgical is one of the best cards you can have against them. It takes out their engines and/or their win conditions.
Surgical is also helpful against combo decks, particularly given your suite of discard spells. Against TES, taking out a Burning Wish can be backbreaking. Against Sneak and Show, removing one of their fatties is huge. Against ANT, hitting Infernal Tutor is great. Against Dredge, hitting bridges or their early dredger is gigantic.
It's not good against the combo decks that can attack at other angles, such as Elves for example. It's not good against any of the fair decks, either. But for most combo matchups, I want access to it, and for a couple matchups in particular, I always want to draw all of my Extractions.
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Fair enough. It helped a lot in the Storm matchups but when I brought it in vs. Sneak and Show and Reanimator it didn't help as much as I thought. It may just be that I didn't draw it at the right time since I was only running 2.
I've tried out Ensnaring Bridge and it has helped an absolutely immense amount, so I think I may replace a Nihil Spellbomb and a Pyroblast with 2 Extractions again.
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG
also, can you comment on my proposed manabase:
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
do I need 4 wasteland, or does that depend on punishing v. non-punishing? can i get away with using a set of flats, and if so do i need to get rid of the mountain?
finally, must i pick up a sylvan library? how necessary is it?
thanks!
For a non-Punishing build this seems fine. You can definitely do 4 Wasteland with this list pretty easily.
I use 4 Verdant and 4 Marsh Flats and I've never had a problem. If you do that I would suggest playing 2 Swamps and 1 Forest. The lone Mountain is very nice vs. RUG Delver and these random lands decks that have been popping up but, as some in the thread have already discussed, you can play around it and don't need the one Mountain.
There are many lists both with and without Sylvan Library. In the grindier matchups it is one of your best cards. The fact that it looks 3 cards deep and can draw you extra cards each turn all for 2 mana is awesome. The fact that it grows your Goyf (usually) is icing on the top. I'm a large advocate for it, but many see it as a durdley card that doesn't do anything the turn it comes down. I would say to test it and, if you like it, keep it in.
Well, Deathrite into Wasteland is an interaction that happens quite a bit, and the tempo play can really put you ahead. That being said, that's not the big reason it's in this deck. Having Wastelands provide you with a new plan of attack against certain decks. Jund punishes land heavy keeps/mulligans with Thoughtseize and can punish land light keeps/mulligans with Wasteland. Combine that with the fact that there are some strategies (Dark Depths+Thespian Stage, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, other Punishing Fire decks) that almost demand land destruction, it's pretty easy to see why Wasteland is played so much. Also, if you put a Life from the Loam in the deck, you can lock multiple Delver decks out of the game completely since they usually play no basics.
I would call land destruction in general an essential part of the deck and Wasteland is the most efficient way to do it.
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyrobast
2 Golgari Charm
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate
2 Ancient Grudge
The sideboard is what I'm really on the fence about. I previously had Jitte mainboarded but I thought that Maelstrom pulse would be able to help cover what Abrupt Decay cannot hit. Choke Was really good but when I play tested it against a friend choke would only buy me a turn at most especially BUG, I thought maybe Pyroblast would be the better pick here. Golgari Charm is another card that's iffy for me, it's either that or Engineered Plague. I have Pithing Needle because Vial decks wrecked me so hard even when I had landlocked my opponent.
R/W Devotion
Mono-R Devotion
Legacy
Burn
Punishing Jund
Minor bit of advice, but don't forget that you can use Pithing Needle in some of our worst match-ups like Storm (name LED), Sneak and Show (name Sneak Attack), etc. Even in favorable match-ups like UW Miracles, naming Top is great.
If you need room in your SB, I'm not a big fan of Choke. It's a win more card since most decks I bring it in against, I'm already favored (i.e. blue control).
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
Needle can't actually name LED. Well, it can, but it will do nothing. Needle doesn't stop mana abilities (Phyrexian Revoker does).
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
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Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
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Doh. Thank you for pointing that out.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
1 Diabolic Edict MB
I have been seeing it a lot, is this just to have an answer to TNN or Sneak and Show in the mainboard?
4 Decay/ 3 Punishing / 2 Bolts
Why 2 Lightning Bolts? Is the 4 Decay+4 Fire not enough?
Also, I have been testing out Phyrexian Revoker and he has been extremely good. Though he cannot hit lands he provides a body that we can put pressure with. Do people prefer him or Pithing Needle or something else? (If I had the money I would probably run Chains of Mephistopheles in its place in my sideboard.)
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG
I still prefer Liliana as an answer to TNN/SnT targets instead of the edict.
I have 3 P. Fires and 2 bolts. The lightning bolts help for either early removal or winning goyf wars.
I'm not a fan of Revoker for three reasons:
1. It's a creature so it's a lot more vulnerable to things, with golgari charm showing up in my playgroup it isn't a good choice for me.
2. It doesn't allow me to shut down opposing fetch lands which helps.
3. Pithing needle is one mana so I can deploy them faster. I already have Sensei's Divining Top hogging mana as it is.
R/W Devotion
Mono-R Devotion
Legacy
Burn
Punishing Jund
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Curse PremiumI've just read a channelfireball article about it, and I think it could be a good idea
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Curse PremiumI understand what you mean, I was considering adding a pitch of white for gp paris (2 scrubland and 4 spirit of the labyrinth)
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Curse PremiumChains of Mephistopheles is a good card, but there's only one in sb against combo decks, 2 Sotl maindeck and 2 in sb is maybe the way to go if I take the risk to pitch white...
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Spirit Of The Labyrinth
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Hymn To Tourach
1 Life From The Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Grove Of The Burnwillows
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Duress
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Spirit Of The Labyrinth
The Delver one seems to only happen rarely, especially with Abrupt Decay in the deck. I do agree that the only time I want 1 mana removal is on the draw vs. Mom, but she's been pretty easy to play around for now. If those are the only reasons to play Bolt, then I'm happy to stay Bolt-less.
EDIT: Since you have a lot of experience with Chains of Mephistopheles, I would like to ask about that. I wanna take out the 2 Revokers in my board for 2 Chains when I have the money to buy them. How good were they? And what matchups do I bring both in against?
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG
This.
It's clear the author must play more Modern than Legacy, but with Wasteland prevalent, it'd be silly for Jund to go 4 colors. We already prey upon decks with Wasteland, so why become a victim?
Also as anakyn says, we already beat the control/brainstorm decks so I'm not really concerned with them.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
This is what I suspected. Awesome, thank you so much! My next venture will definitely be buying 1-2 Chains for the decks in my area (LA has a massive amount of Sneak and Show, Deathblade, and ANT, which is why I had Revoker).
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG
I forgot to mention that there are a few die hard Elves players that frequent the Legacy shops in LA/my home shop. The card is a destroyer vs. them when I proxied it.
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG