of course liliana is a better planeswalker, xenagos has no place in jund
why would you even play him above garruk relentless in jund?
Pasab covered why he might be better than Relentless. He's basically "free" if you use his +1 afterwards and the tokens have haste, which is very relevant in such a fast format.
I am not outright saying he will be placed in Jund, but I for one am excited to even have a new card to play around with. Last one was Deathrite Shaman and that turned out to be insane.
of course liliana is a better planeswalker, xenagos has no place in jund
why would you even play him above garruk relentless in jund?
/signed
His +1 isn't good unless you have a solid board presence. His 0 ability doesn't stand out to me as bad or great, generic Planeswalker token generation. The ultimate doesn't even seem good in Jund with 15-16 creatures all of which would be plenty cast-able several turns after reaching 4 mana.
Essentially, he seems win more when ahead or poor when you're behind.
I think the 4cc slot should not be overstrained and the 4th BBE and 1st Garruck Relentless would be better uses of a 4cc slot if one wants to run 4-5x 4cc cards.
Do people not play chains because of the price? It's the last card I'm missing but most lists don't seem to have it anymore? Or course referring to chains of mesphistopheles
looking to play magic in the Albany, NY area? come on down to New York Sports @ Yankee Dugout. We do events almost every night of the week including our Sunday night standard. Check us out for a fun place to play.
I haven't tested it in part due to price. Partially, it doesn't seem like a card with huge application against the most played decks. I admittedly don't see myself buying 1-2 Chains of Mesphistopheles for sanctioned events. It admittedly seems good against OmniTell and Jace decks, but I am unsure how to assess it against general Brainstorm/Cantrip decks. Versus decks like Delver and Shardless it doesn't really answer cards that we're concerned about, namely opposing creatures. I've been happy with Red Elemental Blast to attack Blue decks.
As someone whos tested chains against almost any blue deck out there I will say this. It's amazing vs the brainstorm/jace/visions decks and rather poor against the decks that use ponder. At least when it comes to the fair side of blue.
What punishing does is part of an abilitie of chandra( i dont realy get your comparision) but the main thing is her +0.
My interpretation of what Basaka is saying is that both cards have a mode of dealing a small amount of damage and an additional mode that serves to break stalled board states in the midgame.
Chandra, Pyromaster offers two initial abilities, the ability to deal a small amount of damage with her +1 and the ability to potentially generate card advantage with her +0. She comes online on turn 4 without a means to protect herself from attacks, removal or counters. In this sense the +0 is only really powerful/defensible when the board state is stalled or one is ahead.
Punishing Fire also provides the option of dealing a small amount of damage and can do so earlier in the game (likely when it is more relevant). It's combination with Grove of the Burnwillows gives the deck the ability to sink mana in midgame stalls into either removing opposing defenders and Planeswalkers or by grinding at the opponents life total. Being non-Permanent based and recursive it is less susceptible to removal and counters.
I think with Bloodbraid Elf, Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library this deck already has stronger ways of generating card advantage than Chandra, Pyromaster. Punishing Fire gets the nod here due to it providing a means of inevitability as well as being a reasonably costed piece of removal versus a variety of popular cards. Things like Stoneforge, Deathrite, and Delver all come down too early and have backs of 2 that invalidate Chandra's +1.
But im not saying that we need to choose between punishing or her, i was suggesting something like 3 lilis and 1 chandra or something like that! Ofcourse punishing is better.
As it stands players are usually left shorting themselves the 4th Liliana, 4th Bloodbraid Elf, 9th piece of removal or 2nd piece of Library manipulation. I think the 4th Liliana, 4th P Fire, 4 BBE, or 2nd Library / 1st Loam is going to probably provide better synergy with the deck's frame and have better application against the field than the 1st Chandra, Pyromaster.
If you want to test it or have a different proposed list, by all means keep us posted, but the card doesn't jump out to me as doing more work than the established pieces that we aren't maxing out.
But im not saying that we need to choose between punishing or her, i was suggesting something like 3 lilis and 1 chandra or something like that! Ofcourse punishing is better.
Beyond the double red, which you already mentioned, she is not playable in Jund. In fact, even if she were one less red (3 CMC), I would still not run. There's nothing in Jund I would currently cut. The list is already very tight and even if I could fit another card in, it wouldn't be her. It'd be a Maelstrom Pulse or Garruk Relentless. Hell if I could fit 5 more cards in, she's not on the list of cards I even think about putting in. Sorry.
I am absolutely loving this deck. I started playing this because I miss BBE in Modern, and it feels like I can have a solid match up against any other deck.
1- I'm just wondering if I should be using a 3rd Badlands instead of a 4th Grove.
2- Do I go for the 4th Hymn to Tourach?
3- How do I fit in Lightning Bolt in here? I need to get rid of turn 1 Moms & opposing Deathrites and Lackeys, but the list is way too tight.
4- Volrath's Stronghold, yay or nay?
You all choose sylvan over senseis because of the mana it takes to manipulate the library, but how much do you get to pay the 4 life for the extra card? Wouldnt miir's guile be a good alternative?
It may not happen every game, but the times I've done it were backbreaking to my opponent or in an emergency situation where I *did not* want to draw these cards later and had no fetch (i.e. I am digging for a very specific card and need to dig further). I'll gladly play the one extra mana to have this option.
I tend to be able to do this against either really slow Control decks or non-Storm combo decks.
Also i always thought in legacy iok was better than thoughtseize, what are the reasons for playing 4 ts over 3-1 or 2-2?
Thoughtseize is better because it hits 4+ CMC. That means it hit Jace, Elspeth, Batterskull, Sneak Attack, Omniscience, Past in Flames, Ad Nauseum, etc. These are but a fraction of very important cards that Inquisition doesn't hit. There are tons more. Thankfully Thoughtseize is being reprinted if you don't have your playset.
Hi guys, Just finished a small local tournament. (37 or 39 man tournament?) and I wanted to make a write up for fun.
R1 - VS Jund Mirror (No punishing fire, with grim lavamancers instead)
G1:
Lost the roll, and he was able to disarm my hand early with early discard. He took out my Mirri's Guile with an inquisition and killed off my Bob, stalling my board state enough for him to dominate. The early liliana down basically crippled me too much. His Grim lavamancers wrecked my creatures fairly easily, killing off my Bobs and DRS fast.
G2:
got to lay down early pressure this time, and tables turned on him for game 2. Golgari charm hits his sylvan library halting his ability to filter his draws. I was able to cast an engineered plague naming humans to kill off his grim lavamancers and Bobs, while our tarmogoyf's stared each other down until I was able to kill off his.
G3:
Ended in a draw, since we didn't have enough time in the round to complete the game. 5 last turns was called, and by the 4th turn, I casted a bbe vs his empty board with a lilana at 3 counters. Cascaded into a lightning bolt for liliana, but wasn't able to kill him. If time wasn't an issue, I think I would have won that game.
R2 - VS Death and Taxes
G1:
He basically had a nut-draw that I couldn't interrupt. He won the roll and led off with a mom. Turn 2 Revoker naming DRS, followed by a turn 3 stoneforge mystic for batterskull spelled the end of me. Without the ability to take out his creatures, he just steamrolled over me.
G2:
He kept a 1-land hand with a vial, but his vial met my Rakdos charm. He stalled long enough on just 1 land that I was able to steal the game with little difficulty.
G3:
He kept a decent hand, and led off with a vial. His vial was able to bring down a mom before I was able to abrupt decay it. Dealt with the mom and the succeeding creatures with relative ease, and won game 3.
R3 - VS RW Goblins (with Thalia)
G1:
was able to assemble the punishing fire combo and control the board enough to win.
G2:
Rakdos Charm on a vial, followed by a short exchange of spells vs creatures, hitting his goblins with golgari charm and a bloodbraid cascading into an engineered plague sealed the deal.
R4 - VS Esper control
G1:
Won the game in 4-5 turns. The consistent agro and card advantage from bloodbraid elf and bob brought home the bacon with DRS on the back-side burning for 2 damage.
Sideboarded in:
3 Rakdos Charm
4 Pyroblast
G2:
Lost after a fatal misplay regarding rakdos charm on his batterskull.
Shouldn't have discarded my second Rakdos Charm in hand to Liliana. =/
It went something like:
Rakdos Charm on B-skull.
He responds with returning it to hand.
If I kept the 2nd rakdos charm in my hand, I could have taken it out and possibly could have won the game.
G3:
As we started the third game, last 5 turns was called and it was a draw.
G2:
2 Duress+1 Pyroblast in opening 7 was a sure keep. I was able to take out his sneak attack, and counter his show and tell as I drew my second pyroblast and won the game.
G3:
I kept a 1-land hand with 2 pyroblast and a Golgari Charm. He was able to resolve a sneak and show, but didn't have the creature in hand and passed the turn.
I didn't draw a land, and passed the turn. He won shortly after with Intuition for Griselbrand.
If I had been able to draw a land or had another land in hand, I would have been able to golgari charm the Sneak Attack.
R6 - VS Vampires
G1:
won the game after opponent mulls down to 4 cards in hand due to mana issues.
G2:
After a short exchange of removal, discard, and creatures, he was able to play Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths on the same turn to win. I was stuck on 2 lands, with an engineered plague in hand.
G3:
I was able to get a Turn 3 Engineered plague for Vampires, and Mirri's Guile dug 3-cards deep for the second Engineered plague which sealed the deal.
--TLDR--
Ended the game finishing 13th out of 37 people.
Overall, I'm fairly happy with how the deck performed.
Last minute change I did was to go with 3 Hymn and 4 Bloodbraid elf (i used to run the opposite number) Felt it a bit, as Bloodbraid was showing up more often.
Congratz on your finish (pretty good, considering the draws).
I just wanted to ask if:
• you would go again for e-plague naming humans against the "lavamancer jund" again. I personally would try to deal with him using bolts and pfires.
• I understand rakdos charm gives some flexibility, mostly with the exile graveyard thing. But have you considered running stuff like ancient grudge? I was a bit skeptical before trying, but it really shines against decks like death and taxes or MUD. You can even discard it to liliana and use the lesser flashback cost.
The times where you'll need a third dual are pretty slim. I play 2 Bayou, 2 Badlands and 1 Taiga and I've rarely gotten into trouble.
I might try this configuration for the manabase just so I have a 3rd red source than can be fetchable. I think 5 black lands are enough, and on Thursday, there were a couple of times I had a Punishing Fire in my hand that couldn't be cast because the Goblins player Wasteland-ed me was a bit...stressing.
Congratz on your finish (pretty good, considering the draws).
I just wanted to ask if:
• you would go again for e-plague naming humans against the "lavamancer jund" again. I personally would try to deal with him using bolts and pfires.
• I understand rakdos charm gives some flexibility, mostly with the exile graveyard thing. But have you considered running stuff like ancient grudge? I was a bit skeptical before trying, but it really shines against decks like death and taxes or MUD. You can even discard it to liliana and use the lesser flashback cost.
honestly, yeah. I would do it again. I'd rather reserve the pfires and bolts for possibly goyf and opposing deathrite shamans. =/
I know we have a lot of removal, but people deal with grove, extirpate/surgical extraction pfires, and board in graveyard hate against jund. Having a somewhat permanent solution seems better.
Besides, didn't have anything else to board in, so it seemed fine.
That's exactly why I kinda settled on Rakdos Charm. It serves as both graveyard hate and artifact hate. Although I have been told to try ancient grudge. I just might give it a shot, and shift up the board a bit to fit in a different form of graveyard hate.
Thanks! :3
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I might want to cut a fetch for an extra basic swamp if I'm /that/ worried about blood moon.
Was thinking the same thing. I am not sure if he is a clear cut home run here, but it seems like something I'd like to try in both Jund and Zoo.
Still think Liliana is the better Planeswalker though.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
Pasab covered why he might be better than Relentless. He's basically "free" if you use his +1 afterwards and the tokens have haste, which is very relevant in such a fast format.
I am not outright saying he will be placed in Jund, but I for one am excited to even have a new card to play around with. Last one was Deathrite Shaman and that turned out to be insane.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
/signed
His +1 isn't good unless you have a solid board presence. His 0 ability doesn't stand out to me as bad or great, generic Planeswalker token generation. The ultimate doesn't even seem good in Jund with 15-16 creatures all of which would be plenty cast-able several turns after reaching 4 mana.
Essentially, he seems win more when ahead or poor when you're behind.
I think the 4cc slot should not be overstrained and the 4th BBE and 1st Garruck Relentless would be better uses of a 4cc slot if one wants to run 4-5x 4cc cards.
And my list. Any input?
4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 bloodbraid elf
Spells
2 lightning bolt
4 abrupt decay
3 punishing fire
3 thoughtsize
1 inquisition of kozilek
3 hym to torach
1 sylvan library
4 Lilliana of the veil
Land
2 bayou
2 badlands
4 grove of the burnwillows
2 swamp
1 forest
4 verdant catacombs
3 bloodstained mire
2 wooded foothills
3 wasteland
2 duress
2 pyroblast
2 mindbreak trap
3 choke
2 extirpate
1 golgari charm
2 ancient grudge
1 umezawa's jitte
NYSPORTSMAGIC
%@#* combo decks
My interpretation of what Basaka is saying is that both cards have a mode of dealing a small amount of damage and an additional mode that serves to break stalled board states in the midgame.
Chandra, Pyromaster offers two initial abilities, the ability to deal a small amount of damage with her +1 and the ability to potentially generate card advantage with her +0. She comes online on turn 4 without a means to protect herself from attacks, removal or counters. In this sense the +0 is only really powerful/defensible when the board state is stalled or one is ahead.
Punishing Fire also provides the option of dealing a small amount of damage and can do so earlier in the game (likely when it is more relevant). It's combination with Grove of the Burnwillows gives the deck the ability to sink mana in midgame stalls into either removing opposing defenders and Planeswalkers or by grinding at the opponents life total. Being non-Permanent based and recursive it is less susceptible to removal and counters.
I think with Bloodbraid Elf, Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library this deck already has stronger ways of generating card advantage than Chandra, Pyromaster. Punishing Fire gets the nod here due to it providing a means of inevitability as well as being a reasonably costed piece of removal versus a variety of popular cards. Things like Stoneforge, Deathrite, and Delver all come down too early and have backs of 2 that invalidate Chandra's +1.
Decks I play and stuff.
Legacy Burn
Modern Mono U Tron
The question becomes where's the cut?
What is Chandra, Pyromancer better than in comparable lists?
If one takes the typical list it's:
23 Land
4 Drite
4 Bob
4 Goyf
3-4 BBE
4 TS
3-4 PFire
3-4 Lili
3 Hymn
3 Decay
2 Bolt
1-2 Library/Top/LftL
0-1 Pulse
As it stands players are usually left shorting themselves the 4th Liliana, 4th Bloodbraid Elf, 9th piece of removal or 2nd piece of Library manipulation. I think the 4th Liliana, 4th P Fire, 4 BBE, or 2nd Library / 1st Loam is going to probably provide better synergy with the deck's frame and have better application against the field than the 1st Chandra, Pyromaster.
If you want to test it or have a different proposed list, by all means keep us posted, but the card doesn't jump out to me as doing more work than the established pieces that we aren't maxing out.
Beyond the double red, which you already mentioned, she is not playable in Jund. In fact, even if she were one less red (3 CMC), I would still not run. There's nothing in Jund I would currently cut. The list is already very tight and even if I could fit another card in, it wouldn't be her. It'd be a Maelstrom Pulse or Garruk Relentless. Hell if I could fit 5 more cards in, she's not on the list of cards I even think about putting in. Sorry.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
This my current list:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
3 Hymn To Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Badlands
3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove Of The Burnwillows
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
I'm just wondering a couple of things:
1- I'm just wondering if I should be using a 3rd Badlands instead of a 4th Grove.
2- Do I go for the 4th Hymn to Tourach?
3- How do I fit in Lightning Bolt in here? I need to get rid of turn 1 Moms & opposing Deathrites and Lackeys, but the list is way too tight.
4- Volrath's Stronghold, yay or nay?
It may not happen every game, but the times I've done it were backbreaking to my opponent or in an emergency situation where I *did not* want to draw these cards later and had no fetch (i.e. I am digging for a very specific card and need to dig further). I'll gladly play the one extra mana to have this option.
I tend to be able to do this against either really slow Control decks or non-Storm combo decks.
Thoughtseize is better because it hits 4+ CMC. That means it hit Jace, Elspeth, Batterskull, Sneak Attack, Omniscience, Past in Flames, Ad Nauseum, etc. These are but a fraction of very important cards that Inquisition doesn't hit. There are tons more. Thankfully Thoughtseize is being reprinted if you don't have your playset.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
Lands: 23
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the burnwillows
3 wasteland
3 badland
2 bayou
2 swamp
1 forest
Creatures: 16
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pyroblast
3 Duress
3 Rakdos Charm
2 Golgari Charm
2 Engineered Plague
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Hi guys, Just finished a small local tournament. (37 or 39 man tournament?) and I wanted to make a write up for fun.
R1 - VS Jund Mirror (No punishing fire, with grim lavamancers instead)
G1:
Lost the roll, and he was able to disarm my hand early with early discard. He took out my Mirri's Guile with an inquisition and killed off my Bob, stalling my board state enough for him to dominate. The early liliana down basically crippled me too much. His Grim lavamancers wrecked my creatures fairly easily, killing off my Bobs and DRS fast.
Sideboarded in:
2 Engineered plague
2 Golgari charm
1 Maelstrom pulse
G2:
got to lay down early pressure this time, and tables turned on him for game 2. Golgari charm hits his sylvan library halting his ability to filter his draws. I was able to cast an engineered plague naming humans to kill off his grim lavamancers and Bobs, while our tarmogoyf's stared each other down until I was able to kill off his.
G3:
Ended in a draw, since we didn't have enough time in the round to complete the game. 5 last turns was called, and by the 4th turn, I casted a bbe vs his empty board with a lilana at 3 counters. Cascaded into a lightning bolt for liliana, but wasn't able to kill him. If time wasn't an issue, I think I would have won that game.
R2 - VS Death and Taxes
G1:
He basically had a nut-draw that I couldn't interrupt. He won the roll and led off with a mom. Turn 2 Revoker naming DRS, followed by a turn 3 stoneforge mystic for batterskull spelled the end of me. Without the ability to take out his creatures, he just steamrolled over me.
Sideboarded in:
3 Rakdos Charm
2 Golgari Charm
2 Engineered plague
1 Maelstrom pulse
G2:
He kept a 1-land hand with a vial, but his vial met my Rakdos charm. He stalled long enough on just 1 land that I was able to steal the game with little difficulty.
G3:
He kept a decent hand, and led off with a vial. His vial was able to bring down a mom before I was able to abrupt decay it. Dealt with the mom and the succeeding creatures with relative ease, and won game 3.
R3 - VS RW Goblins (with Thalia)
G1:
was able to assemble the punishing fire combo and control the board enough to win.
Sideboarded in:
2 Engineered plague
2 Golgari Charm
3 Rakdos Charm
G2:
Rakdos Charm on a vial, followed by a short exchange of spells vs creatures, hitting his goblins with golgari charm and a bloodbraid cascading into an engineered plague sealed the deal.
R4 - VS Esper control
G1:
Won the game in 4-5 turns. The consistent agro and card advantage from bloodbraid elf and bob brought home the bacon with DRS on the back-side burning for 2 damage.
Sideboarded in:
3 Rakdos Charm
4 Pyroblast
G2:
Lost after a fatal misplay regarding rakdos charm on his batterskull.
Shouldn't have discarded my second Rakdos Charm in hand to Liliana. =/
It went something like:
Rakdos Charm on B-skull.
He responds with returning it to hand.
If I kept the 2nd rakdos charm in my hand, I could have taken it out and possibly could have won the game.
G3:
As we started the third game, last 5 turns was called and it was a draw.
R5 - VS UR Sneak and Show
G1: He turn-2 Emrakuled me. :|
Boarded in:
4 Pyroblast
3 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom pulse
G2:
2 Duress+1 Pyroblast in opening 7 was a sure keep. I was able to take out his sneak attack, and counter his show and tell as I drew my second pyroblast and won the game.
G3:
I kept a 1-land hand with 2 pyroblast and a Golgari Charm. He was able to resolve a sneak and show, but didn't have the creature in hand and passed the turn.
I didn't draw a land, and passed the turn. He won shortly after with Intuition for Griselbrand.
If I had been able to draw a land or had another land in hand, I would have been able to golgari charm the Sneak Attack.
R6 - VS Vampires
G1:
won the game after opponent mulls down to 4 cards in hand due to mana issues.
Sideboarded in:
2 Engineered plagues
2 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom pulse
G2:
After a short exchange of removal, discard, and creatures, he was able to play Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths on the same turn to win. I was stuck on 2 lands, with an engineered plague in hand.
G3:
I was able to get a Turn 3 Engineered plague for Vampires, and Mirri's Guile dug 3-cards deep for the second Engineered plague which sealed the deal.
--TLDR--
Ended the game finishing 13th out of 37 people.
Overall, I'm fairly happy with how the deck performed.
Last minute change I did was to go with 3 Hymn and 4 Bloodbraid elf (i used to run the opposite number) Felt it a bit, as Bloodbraid was showing up more often.
Congratz on your finish (pretty good, considering the draws).
I just wanted to ask if:
• you would go again for e-plague naming humans against the "lavamancer jund" again. I personally would try to deal with him using bolts and pfires.
• I understand rakdos charm gives some flexibility, mostly with the exile graveyard thing. But have you considered running stuff like ancient grudge? I was a bit skeptical before trying, but it really shines against decks like death and taxes or MUD. You can even discard it to liliana and use the lesser flashback cost.
::MODERN:: BG BGx midrange
::COMMANDER:: WBG Karador Witness
I might try this configuration for the manabase just so I have a 3rd red source than can be fetchable. I think 5 black lands are enough, and on Thursday, there were a couple of times I had a Punishing Fire in my hand that couldn't be cast because the Goblins player Wasteland-ed me was a bit...stressing.
honestly, yeah. I would do it again. I'd rather reserve the pfires and bolts for possibly goyf and opposing deathrite shamans. =/
I know we have a lot of removal, but people deal with grove, extirpate/surgical extraction pfires, and board in graveyard hate against jund. Having a somewhat permanent solution seems better.
Besides, didn't have anything else to board in, so it seemed fine.
That's exactly why I kinda settled on Rakdos Charm. It serves as both graveyard hate and artifact hate. Although I have been told to try ancient grudge. I just might give it a shot, and shift up the board a bit to fit in a different form of graveyard hate.
Thanks! :3