So what is the harder matchup for Jund? RUG delver or Stone-bladey kind of decks?
Neither to be honest. RUG and Stoneblade are both fair Blue decks and Jund preys upon fair Blue decks. I haven't lost a single one of those match-ups yet. I guess Esperblade *could* be harder since it has more answers, but I'd say both are good match-ups for Jund.
I want to ask a dead serious question. Why do you guys board in chains of mephistopheles? What is it good against? I bought two, played them, NEVER sided them for a while. Started siding them all the time to see when they'd come up good. I believe they never did. I sold them with no regrets.
I can't think of anything that makes me want to have this in my board because everything it answers can also be answered by something else that is not a 2cc black permanent that has to be cast during your turn and that dosen't kill your opponent.
Chains is for decks that cast spells like Brainstorm, Ponder, etc. For example Esperblade, RUG, Storm combo, etc. It basically negates their card filtering while giving us insane card advantage. Can you imagine Chains against a Storm deck? No longer can they dig for their combo and if they do, they just give you cards and discard their own.
How does Chains of mephistopheles give you "insane card advantage" and "give you cards"?
A storm deck, facing Chains, is simply more likely to kill you with goblins than Tendrils. Big deal. For blue cantrips deck, you just don't need to side in a chain when you already rip them appart.
While it's theoretically good in both matchups, I advocate that it's in no way factually good.
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
How does Chains of mephistopheles give you "insane card advantage" and "give you cards"?
A storm deck, facing Chains, is simply more likely to kill you with goblins than Tendrils. Big deal. For blue cantrips deck, you just don't need to side in a chain when you already rip them appart.
While it's theoretically good in both matchups, I advocate that it's in no way factually good.
First off Storm Combo and Sneak and Show combo are some of Junds worst match-ups. It's also incorrect to assume a a single hand disruption spell will be enough to stop them from combo'ing off. I know this from being on the other side (as the Storm player). Even with our discard, Storm is probably not a favored match-up. I find most Jund players mulligan'ing till they have some hand disruption in their openers and then losing anyway. A competent Storm pilot can combo through one or two pieces of disruption.
With that said, most Storm decks run 12 - 16 dig spells (Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Gitaxian Probe, etc.) so any time they cast these spells and draw a card (or three), they have to discard a card. This is card advantage because for every cantrip they use, your single enchantment negates it. Effectively each cantrip becomes "Discard a card to draw a card" and they already spent a spell on it so it's a 2 for 1. It's virtual card advantage.
When a Storm deck has to continuously discard cards while digging for their combo, it generally slows them down and gives Jund an opening to win. Yes a single piece of disruption won't shutdown a Storm combo, but if they have to discard after every cantrip, it adds up.
As for blue-based Aggro Control decks, anything that turns Jace's Brainstorm ability into "Discard three cards and put two cards back" is going to turn that match-up from favored into heavily favored.
To be honest, I'm kind of surprised you still don't see how insane Chains is against blue-based decks. If you really don't think they're useful, feel free to sell or trade them. They seem pretty expensive and I imagine you could easily find a buyer.
you are being too diplomatic by even calling this "virtual". Turning off JaceStorm and turning all Brainstorm/Ponders into flashbackless-Faithless lootings is huge. And it's 100% USDA card advantage .... nothing "virtual" about it.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the pros and cons of Sylvan Library (I always try to run 2 in Zoo), but therein lies the problem. I hate running singletons of cards when we have no other cantrips or filtering to somehow get to it. Sylvan Library is a boss when it resolves and remains in play, but A) I don't see how we reliably even get one online when it's a one-of, B) Top synergizes better with Bob and Bloodbraid Elf, and C) as you mentioned Top is easier to keep around (I find my opponents killing Sylvan Library very quickly).
At the same time, those advantages only happen if we can run 2 or 3 copies of Top, but the same could be said for Sylvan. I guess the larger discussion I am trying to get into is why doesn't Jund run more library manipulation? It seems like it would be very good for card quality (and our card quality is very high as noted by how good our top decks are), Bob, and cascades. Something that does that seems like it should be more than a one-of whether it be Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top.
I'm guessing the counterargument is we simply don't have the room, which I can somewhat see however I think with more library manipulation perhaps we can run less land (-1 land, +1 library manipulation).
It's entirely because drawing multiples of it sucks. Adding Cascade into the mix makes multiples even more lackluster, as it adds the possibility of (completely) dead Cascade triggers.
Top is a little more forgiving, because if you ever draw more than one, it can quickly replace itself with one of the top three cards of your library, and it can inherently "shuffle" itself away (activate first ability, then the second).
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
It's entirely because drawing multiples of it sucks. Adding Cascade into the mix makes multiples even more lackluster, as it adds the possibility of (completely) dead Cascade triggers.
Top is a little more forgiving, because if you ever draw more than one, it can quickly replace itself with one of the top three cards of your library, and it can inherently "shuffle" itself away (activate first ability, then the second).
Hmm this seems to coincide with my logic that Sensei's Divining Top would be great. At the same time, as you've probably already found out, it's difficult to take anything out. Especially in Punishing Jund so I guess that's the conclusion people came to and that's why there's only a singleton Sylvan Library.
I probably wouldn't play a non-Punishing Fire version of Jund right now, but if I ever did, I'd definitely run 2 or 3 SDTs over the singleton Sylvan Library.
Chains of Mephistopheles is a very specific card. I usually take out Sylvan Library for it as they don't work well together. So in that regard you have to ask the question: 'Which of the two can I benefit more from?'
These are my recommended match ups to board it in:
- ANT; shutting down cantrips such as Gitaxian Probe, Ponder and Preordain stalls them in finding their combo pieces. In this matchup it's better than having a Sylvan Library in play as you want to be more pro-actively disrupt their hand.
These are match ups where it's not recommended at all:
- Reanimate; you feed their graveyard. It's not good unless you also have an Extirpate to remove whatever hits their graveyard.
- Tempo BUG; you feed their graveyard again. While you match their Tarmogoyf with your own, Tombstalker hits the board earlier than normal. A 5/5 Flying creature is a huge problem for us. You don't want to run this card unless you have a Nihil Spellbomb right next to it.
In the end it depends heavily on your meta whether you need this card or not. In any case as a one off it's not so much game breaking or making; it's more about flavor and making certain match ups easier.
I like the points you bring up. The thing is, aside from the Shardless Bug, I figured out there is no one of those decks that I wouldn't rather play a Pyrostatic Pillar against instead. Denying card advantage is decent, but I heard killing your opponent is good too.
Too often card choices from "pros" go uncontested and it's not always good. While Chain of Mephistopheles has a powerful effect, it's by no means a sure-fire blowout since it basically sit there, waiting to be answered. A lot of times have I seed my liliana tick down to discarted cantrips before I decided that the virtual card advantage was not all that synergic on it's own.
Anyway, I don't think I will convince the die hard fans of the card, but I've stopped using it in favor of Pyrostatic Pillar, an answer to roughly the same decks. that suits me best.
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
I just want to interject regarding how impressive Sylvan library has been for me. It is insane with dark confidant. You can set up draws that look like this: upkeep reveal land off Bob, end of upkeep crack fetch land, draw phase look at the top 3.
The ability to just draw 2-3 garbage cards is huge. Post board, library allows you to dig deeper, faster. Against graveyard decks, you can dig toward your surgical extraction (which you should be running in theboard IMHO).
Surgical is so powerful vs storm decks, tin fins, reanimator, etc. When they "go for it" you can absolutely blow them out.
/2 cents.
-swizzie
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-Swizzie
Top 16 GP Miami 2013
Top 4 Florida States 2013
Several PTQ top 8's
Writer for South Florida Magic
I just want to interject regarding how impressive Sylvan library has been for me. It is insane with dark confidant. You can set up draws that look like this: upkeep reveal land off Bob, end of upkeep crack fetch land, draw phase look at the top 3.
The ability to just draw 2-3 garbage cards is huge. Post board, library allows you to dig deeper, faster. Against graveyard decks, you can dig toward your surgical extraction (which you should be running in theboard IMHO).
Surgical is so powerful vs storm decks, tin fins, reanimator, etc. When they "go for it" you can absolutely blow them out.
/2 cents.
-swizzie
Again, I am not saying Sylvan Library is a bad card. If you know me from the Zoo threads here then you know I've been talking about it for years as an auto-include. With that said, what I dislike is only having a singleton library manipulation. I've played around with lists and can't figure out a way to put another one in so I also understand our deck is too full of good stuff. It's more of a "first world problems" scenario where I wish I could fit another amazing card, but I can't.
With that said, I've actually gone 12-0 with Jund in the last three local Legacy tournaments (three 4-0's and first place each time) and on at least two occasions had that exact setup (Bob + Sylvan) and you're right, it was amazing. What's even more amazing to me is my track record with the deck recently. Truth be told, my record was closer to 50-50 for the first month or so, but I think I've figured the deck out (at least moreso than a month ago) and it's been treating me very well.
I think I've found my deck for the next few months. And trust me, I've been searching for an Aggro deck that is both fun and competitive for a long time since my pet deck (Zoo) died.
How is the singleton Garruk working for you? I'm hesitant to run another 4cc card, which applies for 4th BBE as well. Same question about the 4th Pun Fire
The singleton Garruk has singlehandedly won me at least one match-up. For example, I resolved it against a Junk deck and being able to make nearly infinite wolf tokens meant I could establish blockers or a pretty large clock pretty quickly after both of us stalled out (i.e. no creatures on either side). I've also resolved it against Esper Stoneblade and I view Garruk as kind of the same thing as resolving an Elspeth in a Control mirror match-up. It helps you significantly because you can just keep making creatures. With that said, I might argue it's a "win more" card in that helping versus Stoneblade isn't really needed. At the same time, I think it's been better (to me) than a 4th Liliana.
As for the 4th Punishing Fire, I think that (and another change) is one of the reasons I've done so well lately. I basically added it (and a 2nd swamp) right before I started doing so well and basically the Punishing Fire has auto-won me a lot of games. The reason for this is about half of my wins over the last few weeks are against fair Blue-based Control decks (which Jund beats) and Punishing Fire just wrecks those decks because of the recursion and inevitability. It even won me two matches against Goblins and Affinity because I was able to wreck all their guys in the first four or five turns. I even killed a whopping twelve (!!!) Goblins with it and a Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay (so 10 removals off of 2 Punishing Fires).
At the same time, I'd say it's not for everyone. If you are seeing a lot of Tribal and fair blue-based decks, I think it's a pretty good choice. It is insane removal against the Tribal decks and you really want to draw one very early (with a Grove) and it's the primary reason we beat fair Blue decks. If you are in a combo-heavy meta, I could see not wanting more than 3. For example, my local meta is mostly fair blue-based decks (BUG, RUG, Esperblade, Miracles, etc.) and tribal aggro so my changes reflect that meta. There are only two or three combo decks (2 Storm, 1 Show and Tell-based deck) each week and out of 20 - 25 players, my changes help me in more match-ups. But again, if you are in a combo heavy meta, take my advice with a grain of salt.
SL is a good card and it can really help you out in many occasions, but playing more than one might screw up our early game. As for the lack of library manipulation, there's really not much we can do, it's in Jund's nature to be more random than Ux decks. We can just hope to dump all the strong cards to the board and win by doing it, which is possible, since most of the cards are good in many occasions.
Yeah I've realized recently our deck is the kind of deck where nearly every top deck is pretty good so it doesn't matter too much how we manipulate it. I mean there are cards better in certain situations, but almost never do we draw a completely useless card.
As for match-ups, I have mixed feelings about RUG. I lost miserably to it at GPT and received various results on Cockatrice. It seems to be a 50/50 match-up, however I'm new to Jund, so it might be my lack of experience.
Also, am I the only one to notice that the number of Jund's in big tournaments is decreasing?
I've had the opposite against RUG Delver. I've beaten it all three times I've faced it. Our Punishing Fire basically kill all their creatures except Nimble Mongoose (if you can cast 2 Punishing Fires it'll usually kill Goyf) and since they have so few creatures (12) you can usually win after removing their creatures. At the same time, perhaps you are unlucky in that they are on the play and either Stifle your first fetch or Daze your first play (usually a Deathrite Shaman).
Maybe it's your sideboard? I usually side out all of my discard (6 slots) and side in 3 Pyroblast, 2 Jitte, and a Surgical (nothing else to side in so maybe I can Extract a dual that I waste). The discard I side out since they empty their hand pretty quickly other than holding a cantrip or counter spell and I'm fine them holding those cards and would rather have my SB cards.
First off, I think that the single Garruk is an awesome idea dwchan! Ill be sure to try that out. I want to know what you guys think about making it blue jund? I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but Having 7-8 cards capable of cascading into ancestral vision , hymn to tourach, lightning bolt , thoughtseize , and abrupt decay is very strong in my testing. I don't play Jace because honestly, you can just power through it. If they want to bounce your cascaders, awesome. And the free spells off of cascade often can clear the path to kill jace
I'm having a hard time buying into playing garruk over bbe. Blood braid is in the deck for a few reasons.
1. He matches up extremely well vs Jace.
2. He matches up well vs. Counter magic.
3. He helps clear garbage off the top of your deck.
4. He digs toward sideboard cards.
I think reason 4 is huge. I run a lot of singletons in the sideboard. Bbe makes sure I can find it in time. Frankly, I'm not sure what garruk really brings to the table. Making a 2/2 wolf each turn? That's not very exciting to me.
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Top 16 GP Miami 2013
Top 4 Florida States 2013
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Writer for South Florida Magic
I want to know what you guys think about making it blue jund? I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but Having 7-8 cards capable of cascading into ancestral vision , hymn to tourach, lightning bolt , thoughtseize , and abrupt decay is very strong in my testing. I don't play Jace because honestly, you can just power through it. If they want to bounce your cascaders, awesome. And the free spells off of cascade often can clear the path to kill jace
I'm no expert with the deck, but I'd say adding blue opens us up even more to Wasteland. I already have some difficulty with Wasteland and almost always against a blind opponent (i.e. I don't know what they are playing) I fetch a basic Swamp and then a basic Forest. Adding a fourth color (and I presume no basic Island) would make it very easy for them to wasteland us out of a color.
I'm having a hard time buying into playing garruk over bbe. Blood braid is in the deck for a few reasons.
1. He matches up extremely well vs Jace.
2. He matches up well vs. Counter magic.
3. He helps clear garbage off the top of your deck.
4. He digs toward sideboard cards.
I think reason 4 is huge. I run a lot of singletons in the sideboard. Bbe makes sure I can find it in time. Frankly, I'm not sure what garruk really brings to the table. Making a 2/2 wolf each turn? That's not very exciting to me.
Well you'll note I didn't cut a BBE for Garruk. I still run 4 BBE so you're preaching to the choir regarding BBE.
As for Garruk, I have found in some matches, we are low on creatures (we only run 15 - 16, I run 16) and if a deck has enough removal we have to go with the Punishing Fire grind win condition, which although inevitable, is slow. Garruk answers their removal by producing creatures every turn. You could just as easily use him as removal as well and flip to make deathtouch tokens.
I am by no means advocating that he is an auto-include, but in the correct meta composition (one without > 40% combo), I think he is great. With 4 Lilianas, there were plenty of times I'd draw a second one and be disappointed since I already had one in play or in hand. That's why I replaced the 4th one with a Garruk. He strengthens one of the key reasons why we beat fair Blue decks, inevitability.
At the moment, I prefer Liliana to Garruk because of her versatility and lesser mana cost, but I'll try him out on Cockatrice to decide if I want him in my deck. Moreover, I assume that he's good for his Bolt ability or turning tokens into Bloodbraids as well, or are these abilities unnecessary? I tried Garruk in Maverick long time ago and wasn't very happy. However, since Maverick doesn't pack as much removal as Jund, I was forced to use walker's Bolt ability most of the time and often it was a turn too late. But I understand that his wolf breeding ability is good in deck with fever creatures, like Jund.
I agree with your points regarding Liliana, but my experience had been (up until now) that I would draw a second one and be disappointed. She's amazing (probably the 2nd best Planeswalker in the game), but surprisingly there were many times I didn't want to draw one.
As for Garruk, I have definitely used his removal ability before and then used his flipped version as a Survival of the Fittest to get a BBE, but about two-thirds of the time, I just made wolf tokens. As you noted (and I noted in my most recent reply to Swizzie), Jund doesn't run a lot of creatures and I think Garruk shores that up.
Combo is a minority in my meta, however I would not reduce Hymns to two, because I still can have Combo match-ups and Hymn also helps against burn. Currently I run Life from the Loam/Maelstrom Pulse in place of the 4th Punishing Fire. Both cards are one offs and I could possibly cut LftL or at least move it to my sideboard, but I can face Pox at a tournament and being able to bring back wasted Grove of the Burnwillows, duals or re-use Wastelands is also quite appealing. Whereas Pulse is a Swiss Army knife and can wipe out those Angel tokens.
Honestly, I was very saddened to remove Maelstrom Pulse from my SB since as you said, it's a catch all solution. It gets anything. At the same time, a friend of mine (same one who recommended the second swamp) said that the things you remove with it, which of them are *true* problems? I mean yeah you can kill a Jace with it, Elspeth, an enchantment, artifact, etc., but when does Abrupt Decay or Punishing Fire not kill those as well?
Honestly I am not 100% confident with the change and could honestly understand wanting a Maelstrom Pulse over it. I love that card and it's versatility.
How can you benefit from 2nd Swamp? It can't be wasted and reduces the harm of POP, but is that it? Sadly, I won't be able to do it for a while, even if this change would be game-changing, since I only have three Bloodstained Mires at the moment, but I'm satisfied with Badlands, tho.
It was a very specific situation, but my friend who was observing said that it happens more often than you'd expect and thus you need the second swamp. The situation was as such: I was under a Blood Moon and prior to it resolving, could have fetched. I had no other basic lands to fetch (had a basic forest and swamp in play) and just it happen. Later on they got a Progenitus in play and I had a Liliana in my hand that I could not cast because of the double black. Had I resolved it and used her sacrifice effect, I would have won the game.
In short, having double swamp allows us to cast our double black spells. You'll notice we have a non-trivial amount of double black spells (Liliana and Hymn to Tourach) and having those spells turned off because you only have non-basics can be game-breaking. Again, I'd say it doesn't come up often, but it does come up. After I made that change I've been able to fetch double swamp very early and never lost an opportunity to cast my Hymns and Lilianas.
I'm sure the counter argument would be we have Deathrite Shaman to help us generate double black, but in my experience (at least locally), my opponents tend to kill my Deathrites almost immediately.
At GPT I lost to RUG because all my little creatures were burned and I couldn't draw Goyfs or BBE's for some reason. I stalled the game one by destroying opposing creatures and having Deathrite Shaman on board, but he was burned after a while and I ran out of removal. Game two I made a bad decision of leaving Choke in my hand to wait for one more mana for Daze protection. My opponent untapped and cast Goyf... The game ended with me on 2 lives with BBE and cascaded Tarmo, while opponent had Mongoose and Delver. I drew Liliana, but she couldn't help me. After game the RUG player said that he might have traded his Goose with my BBE and then Delver would be sacrificed to Liliana. But I did not think that through and scooped before my combat phase. Even though I mulliganed properly, I still lost because of my lack of experience in this match-up and poor draws. After that I won against Goblins and Merfolks and those games were awesome
It sounds like you both had bad luck and just ran out of creatures. As I said earlier, Garruk does strengthen our match-up against fair blue decks of which RUG is one. I will say I only had him in play for two turns before they bolted him, but A) I was able to make two 2/2 tokens and more importantly B) they had to use a removal on him and not me or another creature.
Edit: After seeing your SB, for RUG I would side in your chokes, pyroblasts, Jitte, and 4th BBE and take out your discard. If you can fit it, I'd also put in the Spellbombs to shrink their goyfs/gooses, but I'd say it's the least important of the cards you want to side in.
My sideboard is still under construction and I left it on the previous page, please take a look.
I think I may have replied earlier, but it seems fine. I'd personally not run Choke and instead run another Jitte, but that's me. I find Choke to be "win more" since we already beat fair Blue decks pretty handily. I also personally prefer Surgical Extraction, but that's just a personal preference since I love that card.
I still run 3-4 basics in my deck, mostly swamps, as hymn and liliana are double black. I haven't had a huge problem vs the wasteland, as im still able to put anything i cant cast on my library with brainstorm and then cascade into it. That's from personal experience, however
dwchang, whilst I have some doubts about the Swamp because we also need red mana, especially to cast multiple Punishing Fires, I believe both options are fine. Also, I just noticed, that Mars Flats would work the same as Bloodstained Mire in your list, so I could easily use it as a substitute for the 4th BR fetch.
I agree with the Mountain statement but just can't fit it. I've decided to not put it in (and the basic Swamp) because the math favors me having a red producing source. I have six ways to generate red mana (4 Groves, 2 Badlands) and only 6 spells that require a single red mana (2 bolts, 4 punishing fires). On the flip side, I have six ways to generate black mana, but two of those are basic swamps (i.e. can't be locked out) and more importantly, 5 spells that require double black. I looked at that and basically decided to go with the swamp. I haven't been burned by it yet, but I could see it happening (i.e. locked out of red). However as I mentioned in a narrow example, if I had a second swamp I could have won a winnable game.
Lastly, my meta has a non-trivial amount of Blood Moons so even if they try to lock me out of a color, I will have access to red, so I decided to cut the Mountain for a double swamp so I don't get locked out of Liliana.
I was very happy drawing multiple Lilianas because I can either discard one to pump Goyf or go for the second ability few times or do ultimatum and then cast another one, but the same could be done with three, imo and Garruk seems to be a nice addition. However, we already have a good creature match-up and Liliana strengthens our Combo math-up.
You're right and as I said earlier, if you have a lot of Combo, take my suggestions with a grain of salt. My meta is filled with tribal and fair blue decks so in those situations I've found the 4th Liliana to be underperforming and so I wanted to try something new.
Chokes are fun to play, however they could really be replaced with 2nd Jitte and something like Scooze. But in what match-ups would I want the Jitte? Elves, Goblins are wrecked by Engineered Plague (which I run 3 to avoid muligans and because both mentioned decks can be seen in my meta), Merfolks are harmed by almost everything we have, so Jitte doesn't seem to be a necessity.
I've sided in Jitte against Esper Stoneblade, the tribal decks you mentioned above, Junk, Maverick, and RUG/BUG. As you mentioned, it's kind of Win More against the Tribal decks, but it's still a good card and I think Choke is also Win More, but more constrained (i.e. I think I'd bring in Jitte in more match-ups than Choke).
Surgical Extraction is rather good at what it does, however some people in my meta substitute some duals with shocklands, so if I'd take one Tropical out of my opponent's deck and he would fetch Breeding Pool the next turn, it wouldn't be very game-breaking, would it? On the other hand, I could side it against players who only use duals. Nevertheless, Spellbomb is more helpful against Dredge and Lands decks, so I'm going to keep it, at least for now.
Seems reasonable. I've definitely extracted duals on a RUG player before and it's devastating. However, I still like extraction since it allows me to get a card I really hate (say StP) and get all copies. At the same time, if you have Lands and Dredge players I'd much rather run a "remove the entire GY" card. I see neither decks in my meta.
I'd say both are pretty good. I personally think Lavamancer is probably slightly redundant since we have Punishing Fire for removal and more importantly, he doesn't synergize very well with Deathrite Shaman. In that case I'd say Ooze is better since we have a tendency to remove a lot of creatures with Punishing Fires and thus you can grow Ooze to probably a 5/5 or 6/6 pretty easily.
On a sort of oracle note, I have a feeling I'm bound for some bad draws or games this week. After getting first at our local tourneys three times in a row, I'm due for a bad day. When that happens, perhaps I will be back on here asking for suggestions :P. My current record with the deck is 17-6-1, which I think is pretty good. I'd *love* to see those kind of numbers at a GP or SCG Open. If you're wondering, three of those six losses are to Storm (the same player no less).
I agree with your ideas about Jitte. It is more versatile and can help in Affinity and Burn match-ups as well, so upping the count might be a good decision. I'm still thinking about Scavenging Ooze. Chokes open up two slots - one for Jitte and one for something else. If not Scooze, then maybe 3rd Pyroblast? Also I think I'll cut Ancient Grudge, because Affinity can be handled with the MB removal and Jittes, which will open up one more slot.
I guess in that scenario I'd op for one or two Scavenging Oozes since as you said it's also good against Burn, which I feel is not a favored (or unfavored) match-up.
I tested four Punishing Fires and I occasionally had two in hand, whilst I could live with one. If the results will remain like these, I'll probably go back to playing three. At least I won't think about cutting them entirely... I had that idea before because some lists at SCG were without them, but testing and fitting metagame proved their worth.
Thing with having two Punishing Fires is it's not terrible because it does up your inevitable win condition (i.e. if your creatures stall out). You can then buy back BOTH punishing fires off of one Grove trigger and then deal a net of three damage a turn instead of only one. Given those games are probably already won, but at least it'll be faster. Also double Fires makes it a lot easier to kill things like opposing Goyfs or Knight of the Reliquaries without having to tap your lands awkwardly.
Why are you running Krosan Grips in your sideboard? What's the reasoning behind two E.Plagues and not three?
Honestly Krosan Grip might just be an artifact. I almost always start with Krosan Grip and Surgical Extraction when making a SB that has Green and Black because I find both cards to be so versatile. As for actual reasons, I like that Krosan Grip can kill cards like Sensei's Divining Top, Batterskull, etc. without allowing my opponent to save it. The real decision becomes, is it necessary since the decks that use those cards I already beat? The jury is still out.
I'd say I've only sided in my Krosan Grips twice where it mattered significantly and both games were against Imperial Painter. In that match-up they are a Godsend (killing their Painter in response to Grindstone and not allowing them to counter with Pyroblast), but I imagine my meta (which has two Imperial Painter decks) is not common.
As for your oracle note, you can't always win tournaments Now you should think what went wrong and make minor changes in your 75 and remember not to make the same mistakes again
Oh I just get these feelings after I play well and unfortunately they usually turn out right. I have no delusion that a good record always reflects good play. In this instance I know a lot of it has to do with match-ups. For example, I have only faced one Storm deck and one Show and Tell deck in the twelve games I've won in a row. The majority of other games were against fair Blue decks (which I am significantly favored) and tribal. I'm sure this week I will face four Storm decks :P.
1 basic swamp and 1 basic forest should be sufficient, because you have death rite shaman and abrupt decay to work around blood moon.
Krosan grip is OK, but I feel ancient grudge is strictly better. Ancient grudge is insane against the artifact heavy decks (that are popular in my meta), but its also very good with life from the loam (which tends to be good vs the artifact decks).
Abrupt Decay deals with most problematic enchantments. The only relevant enchantment I can think of that it doesn't answer is humility.
@beating RUG. This matchup seems pretty close. I find most of the games I lose revolve around getting wasteland / stifled and not being able to establish a man base. For this reason, I like to lower my curve by taking out blood braid elves. Hymn to Tourach is also dangerous if they have misdirection. Avoid finding forests so you can play around submerge.
/2 cents
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-Swizzie
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Anyway, going back to the topic: what's the reasoning behind 3 or 4 Wastelands?
There's not really a reason other than having more of a good thing. I think I can fit the 4th Wasteland in my manabase so I do. I guess I could cut one for a basic Mountain, but haven't run into a situation where I've been locked out of red (yet) and Wasteland has always been pretty good for me (esp. against RUG/BUG decks).
Krosan grip is OK, but I feel ancient grudge is strictly better. Ancient grudge is insane against the artifact heavy decks (that are popular in my meta), but its also very good with life from the loam (which tends to be good vs the artifact decks).
I think you need to look up what strictly better means since it's not strictly better. Ancient Grudge first off doesn't destroy enchantments, which Krosan Grip does and even among artifacts, Krosan Grip can destroy Sensei's Divining Top before they can protect it. Those two scenarios alone make Ancient Grudge not strictly better.
I can understand that argument that Ancient Grudge is better for artifact destruction, but to use the term "strictly better" is incorrect here.
@beating RUG. This matchup seems pretty close. I find most of the games I lose revolve around getting wasteland / stifled and not being able to establish a man base. For this reason, I like to lower my curve by taking out blood braid elves. Hymn to Tourach is also dangerous if they have misdirection. Avoid finding forests so you can play around submerge.
Your advice seems contradictory. You talk about losing because you get wastelanded out or can't establish a manabase, but then suggest not finding a basic forest (or what I presume is even Bayous)? Perhaps it was a typo, but I would think one of the first two things you should do against RUG is get your basic Swamp and basic Forest.
Neither to be honest. RUG and Stoneblade are both fair Blue decks and Jund preys upon fair Blue decks. I haven't lost a single one of those match-ups yet. I guess Esperblade *could* be harder since it has more answers, but I'd say both are good match-ups for Jund.
Chains is for decks that cast spells like Brainstorm, Ponder, etc. For example Esperblade, RUG, Storm combo, etc. It basically negates their card filtering while giving us insane card advantage. Can you imagine Chains against a Storm deck? No longer can they dig for their combo and if they do, they just give you cards and discard their own.
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A storm deck, facing Chains, is simply more likely to kill you with goblins than Tendrils. Big deal. For blue cantrips deck, you just don't need to side in a chain when you already rip them appart.
While it's theoretically good in both matchups, I advocate that it's in no way factually good.
First off Storm Combo and Sneak and Show combo are some of Junds worst match-ups. It's also incorrect to assume a a single hand disruption spell will be enough to stop them from combo'ing off. I know this from being on the other side (as the Storm player). Even with our discard, Storm is probably not a favored match-up. I find most Jund players mulligan'ing till they have some hand disruption in their openers and then losing anyway. A competent Storm pilot can combo through one or two pieces of disruption.
With that said, most Storm decks run 12 - 16 dig spells (Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Gitaxian Probe, etc.) so any time they cast these spells and draw a card (or three), they have to discard a card. This is card advantage because for every cantrip they use, your single enchantment negates it. Effectively each cantrip becomes "Discard a card to draw a card" and they already spent a spell on it so it's a 2 for 1. It's virtual card advantage.
When a Storm deck has to continuously discard cards while digging for their combo, it generally slows them down and gives Jund an opening to win. Yes a single piece of disruption won't shutdown a Storm combo, but if they have to discard after every cantrip, it adds up.
As for blue-based Aggro Control decks, anything that turns Jace's Brainstorm ability into "Discard three cards and put two cards back" is going to turn that match-up from favored into heavily favored.
To be honest, I'm kind of surprised you still don't see how insane Chains is against blue-based decks. If you really don't think they're useful, feel free to sell or trade them. They seem pretty expensive and I imagine you could easily find a buyer.
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you are being too diplomatic by even calling this "virtual". Turning off JaceStorm and turning all Brainstorm/Ponders into flashbackless-Faithless lootings is huge. And it's 100% USDA card advantage .... nothing "virtual" about it.
It's entirely because drawing multiples of it sucks. Adding Cascade into the mix makes multiples even more lackluster, as it adds the possibility of (completely) dead Cascade triggers.
Top is a little more forgiving, because if you ever draw more than one, it can quickly replace itself with one of the top three cards of your library, and it can inherently "shuffle" itself away (activate first ability, then the second).
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Hmm this seems to coincide with my logic that Sensei's Divining Top would be great. At the same time, as you've probably already found out, it's difficult to take anything out. Especially in Punishing Jund so I guess that's the conclusion people came to and that's why there's only a singleton Sylvan Library.
I probably wouldn't play a non-Punishing Fire version of Jund right now, but if I ever did, I'd definitely run 2 or 3 SDTs over the singleton Sylvan Library.
Thanks!
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I like the points you bring up. The thing is, aside from the Shardless Bug, I figured out there is no one of those decks that I wouldn't rather play a Pyrostatic Pillar against instead. Denying card advantage is decent, but I heard killing your opponent is good too.
Too often card choices from "pros" go uncontested and it's not always good. While Chain of Mephistopheles has a powerful effect, it's by no means a sure-fire blowout since it basically sit there, waiting to be answered. A lot of times have I seed my liliana tick down to discarted cantrips before I decided that the virtual card advantage was not all that synergic on it's own.
Anyway, I don't think I will convince the die hard fans of the card, but I've stopped using it in favor of Pyrostatic Pillar, an answer to roughly the same decks. that suits me best.
The ability to just draw 2-3 garbage cards is huge. Post board, library allows you to dig deeper, faster. Against graveyard decks, you can dig toward your surgical extraction (which you should be running in theboard IMHO).
Surgical is so powerful vs storm decks, tin fins, reanimator, etc. When they "go for it" you can absolutely blow them out.
/2 cents.
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Again, I am not saying Sylvan Library is a bad card. If you know me from the Zoo threads here then you know I've been talking about it for years as an auto-include. With that said, what I dislike is only having a singleton library manipulation. I've played around with lists and can't figure out a way to put another one in so I also understand our deck is too full of good stuff. It's more of a "first world problems" scenario where I wish I could fit another amazing card, but I can't.
With that said, I've actually gone 12-0 with Jund in the last three local Legacy tournaments (three 4-0's and first place each time) and on at least two occasions had that exact setup (Bob + Sylvan) and you're right, it was amazing. What's even more amazing to me is my track record with the deck recently. Truth be told, my record was closer to 50-50 for the first month or so, but I think I've figured the deck out (at least moreso than a month ago) and it's been treating me very well.
I think I've found my deck for the next few months. And trust me, I've been searching for an Aggro deck that is both fun and competitive for a long time since my pet deck (Zoo) died.
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The singleton Garruk has singlehandedly won me at least one match-up. For example, I resolved it against a Junk deck and being able to make nearly infinite wolf tokens meant I could establish blockers or a pretty large clock pretty quickly after both of us stalled out (i.e. no creatures on either side). I've also resolved it against Esper Stoneblade and I view Garruk as kind of the same thing as resolving an Elspeth in a Control mirror match-up. It helps you significantly because you can just keep making creatures. With that said, I might argue it's a "win more" card in that helping versus Stoneblade isn't really needed. At the same time, I think it's been better (to me) than a 4th Liliana.
As for the 4th Punishing Fire, I think that (and another change) is one of the reasons I've done so well lately. I basically added it (and a 2nd swamp) right before I started doing so well and basically the Punishing Fire has auto-won me a lot of games. The reason for this is about half of my wins over the last few weeks are against fair Blue-based Control decks (which Jund beats) and Punishing Fire just wrecks those decks because of the recursion and inevitability. It even won me two matches against Goblins and Affinity because I was able to wreck all their guys in the first four or five turns. I even killed a whopping twelve (!!!) Goblins with it and a Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay (so 10 removals off of 2 Punishing Fires).
At the same time, I'd say it's not for everyone. If you are seeing a lot of Tribal and fair blue-based decks, I think it's a pretty good choice. It is insane removal against the Tribal decks and you really want to draw one very early (with a Grove) and it's the primary reason we beat fair Blue decks. If you are in a combo-heavy meta, I could see not wanting more than 3. For example, my local meta is mostly fair blue-based decks (BUG, RUG, Esperblade, Miracles, etc.) and tribal aggro so my changes reflect that meta. There are only two or three combo decks (2 Storm, 1 Show and Tell-based deck) each week and out of 20 - 25 players, my changes help me in more match-ups. But again, if you are in a combo heavy meta, take my advice with a grain of salt.
Yeah I've realized recently our deck is the kind of deck where nearly every top deck is pretty good so it doesn't matter too much how we manipulate it. I mean there are cards better in certain situations, but almost never do we draw a completely useless card.
I've had the opposite against RUG Delver. I've beaten it all three times I've faced it. Our Punishing Fire basically kill all their creatures except Nimble Mongoose (if you can cast 2 Punishing Fires it'll usually kill Goyf) and since they have so few creatures (12) you can usually win after removing their creatures. At the same time, perhaps you are unlucky in that they are on the play and either Stifle your first fetch or Daze your first play (usually a Deathrite Shaman).
Maybe it's your sideboard? I usually side out all of my discard (6 slots) and side in 3 Pyroblast, 2 Jitte, and a Surgical (nothing else to side in so maybe I can Extract a dual that I waste). The discard I side out since they empty their hand pretty quickly other than holding a cantrip or counter spell and I'm fine them holding those cards and would rather have my SB cards.
I hope my explanations help.
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1. He matches up extremely well vs Jace.
2. He matches up well vs. Counter magic.
3. He helps clear garbage off the top of your deck.
4. He digs toward sideboard cards.
I think reason 4 is huge. I run a lot of singletons in the sideboard. Bbe makes sure I can find it in time. Frankly, I'm not sure what garruk really brings to the table. Making a 2/2 wolf each turn? That's not very exciting to me.
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I'm no expert with the deck, but I'd say adding blue opens us up even more to Wasteland. I already have some difficulty with Wasteland and almost always against a blind opponent (i.e. I don't know what they are playing) I fetch a basic Swamp and then a basic Forest. Adding a fourth color (and I presume no basic Island) would make it very easy for them to wasteland us out of a color.
Well you'll note I didn't cut a BBE for Garruk. I still run 4 BBE so you're preaching to the choir regarding BBE.
As for Garruk, I have found in some matches, we are low on creatures (we only run 15 - 16, I run 16) and if a deck has enough removal we have to go with the Punishing Fire grind win condition, which although inevitable, is slow. Garruk answers their removal by producing creatures every turn. You could just as easily use him as removal as well and flip to make deathtouch tokens.
I am by no means advocating that he is an auto-include, but in the correct meta composition (one without > 40% combo), I think he is great. With 4 Lilianas, there were plenty of times I'd draw a second one and be disappointed since I already had one in play or in hand. That's why I replaced the 4th one with a Garruk. He strengthens one of the key reasons why we beat fair Blue decks, inevitability.
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The Zoo readers know I generally tend to make rather long, but detailed replies whether people like it or not ;).
I agree with your points regarding Liliana, but my experience had been (up until now) that I would draw a second one and be disappointed. She's amazing (probably the 2nd best Planeswalker in the game), but surprisingly there were many times I didn't want to draw one.
As for Garruk, I have definitely used his removal ability before and then used his flipped version as a Survival of the Fittest to get a BBE, but about two-thirds of the time, I just made wolf tokens. As you noted (and I noted in my most recent reply to Swizzie), Jund doesn't run a lot of creatures and I think Garruk shores that up.
Honestly, I was very saddened to remove Maelstrom Pulse from my SB since as you said, it's a catch all solution. It gets anything. At the same time, a friend of mine (same one who recommended the second swamp) said that the things you remove with it, which of them are *true* problems? I mean yeah you can kill a Jace with it, Elspeth, an enchantment, artifact, etc., but when does Abrupt Decay or Punishing Fire not kill those as well?
Honestly I am not 100% confident with the change and could honestly understand wanting a Maelstrom Pulse over it. I love that card and it's versatility.
It was a very specific situation, but my friend who was observing said that it happens more often than you'd expect and thus you need the second swamp. The situation was as such: I was under a Blood Moon and prior to it resolving, could have fetched. I had no other basic lands to fetch (had a basic forest and swamp in play) and just it happen. Later on they got a Progenitus in play and I had a Liliana in my hand that I could not cast because of the double black. Had I resolved it and used her sacrifice effect, I would have won the game.
In short, having double swamp allows us to cast our double black spells. You'll notice we have a non-trivial amount of double black spells (Liliana and Hymn to Tourach) and having those spells turned off because you only have non-basics can be game-breaking. Again, I'd say it doesn't come up often, but it does come up. After I made that change I've been able to fetch double swamp very early and never lost an opportunity to cast my Hymns and Lilianas.
I'm sure the counter argument would be we have Deathrite Shaman to help us generate double black, but in my experience (at least locally), my opponents tend to kill my Deathrites almost immediately.
It sounds like you both had bad luck and just ran out of creatures. As I said earlier, Garruk does strengthen our match-up against fair blue decks of which RUG is one. I will say I only had him in play for two turns before they bolted him, but A) I was able to make two 2/2 tokens and more importantly B) they had to use a removal on him and not me or another creature.
Edit: After seeing your SB, for RUG I would side in your chokes, pyroblasts, Jitte, and 4th BBE and take out your discard. If you can fit it, I'd also put in the Spellbombs to shrink their goyfs/gooses, but I'd say it's the least important of the cards you want to side in.
I think I may have replied earlier, but it seems fine. I'd personally not run Choke and instead run another Jitte, but that's me. I find Choke to be "win more" since we already beat fair Blue decks pretty handily. I also personally prefer Surgical Extraction, but that's just a personal preference since I love that card.
Hope that answers everything.
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I agree with the Mountain statement but just can't fit it. I've decided to not put it in (and the basic Swamp) because the math favors me having a red producing source. I have six ways to generate red mana (4 Groves, 2 Badlands) and only 6 spells that require a single red mana (2 bolts, 4 punishing fires). On the flip side, I have six ways to generate black mana, but two of those are basic swamps (i.e. can't be locked out) and more importantly, 5 spells that require double black. I looked at that and basically decided to go with the swamp. I haven't been burned by it yet, but I could see it happening (i.e. locked out of red). However as I mentioned in a narrow example, if I had a second swamp I could have won a winnable game.
Lastly, my meta has a non-trivial amount of Blood Moons so even if they try to lock me out of a color, I will have access to red, so I decided to cut the Mountain for a double swamp so I don't get locked out of Liliana.
You're right and as I said earlier, if you have a lot of Combo, take my suggestions with a grain of salt. My meta is filled with tribal and fair blue decks so in those situations I've found the 4th Liliana to be underperforming and so I wanted to try something new.
I've sided in Jitte against Esper Stoneblade, the tribal decks you mentioned above, Junk, Maverick, and RUG/BUG. As you mentioned, it's kind of Win More against the Tribal decks, but it's still a good card and I think Choke is also Win More, but more constrained (i.e. I think I'd bring in Jitte in more match-ups than Choke).
Seems reasonable. I've definitely extracted duals on a RUG player before and it's devastating. However, I still like extraction since it allows me to get a card I really hate (say StP) and get all copies. At the same time, if you have Lands and Dredge players I'd much rather run a "remove the entire GY" card. I see neither decks in my meta.
I'd say both are pretty good. I personally think Lavamancer is probably slightly redundant since we have Punishing Fire for removal and more importantly, he doesn't synergize very well with Deathrite Shaman. In that case I'd say Ooze is better since we have a tendency to remove a lot of creatures with Punishing Fires and thus you can grow Ooze to probably a 5/5 or 6/6 pretty easily.
On a sort of oracle note, I have a feeling I'm bound for some bad draws or games this week. After getting first at our local tourneys three times in a row, I'm due for a bad day. When that happens, perhaps I will be back on here asking for suggestions :P. My current record with the deck is 17-6-1, which I think is pretty good. I'd *love* to see those kind of numbers at a GP or SCG Open. If you're wondering, three of those six losses are to Storm (the same player no less).
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I guess in that scenario I'd op for one or two Scavenging Oozes since as you said it's also good against Burn, which I feel is not a favored (or unfavored) match-up.
Thing with having two Punishing Fires is it's not terrible because it does up your inevitable win condition (i.e. if your creatures stall out). You can then buy back BOTH punishing fires off of one Grove trigger and then deal a net of three damage a turn instead of only one. Given those games are probably already won, but at least it'll be faster. Also double Fires makes it a lot easier to kill things like opposing Goyfs or Knight of the Reliquaries without having to tap your lands awkwardly.
Honestly Krosan Grip might just be an artifact. I almost always start with Krosan Grip and Surgical Extraction when making a SB that has Green and Black because I find both cards to be so versatile. As for actual reasons, I like that Krosan Grip can kill cards like Sensei's Divining Top, Batterskull, etc. without allowing my opponent to save it. The real decision becomes, is it necessary since the decks that use those cards I already beat? The jury is still out.
I'd say I've only sided in my Krosan Grips twice where it mattered significantly and both games were against Imperial Painter. In that match-up they are a Godsend (killing their Painter in response to Grindstone and not allowing them to counter with Pyroblast), but I imagine my meta (which has two Imperial Painter decks) is not common.
Oh I just get these feelings after I play well and unfortunately they usually turn out right. I have no delusion that a good record always reflects good play. In this instance I know a lot of it has to do with match-ups. For example, I have only faced one Storm deck and one Show and Tell deck in the twelve games I've won in a row. The majority of other games were against fair Blue decks (which I am significantly favored) and tribal. I'm sure this week I will face four Storm decks :P.
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1 basic swamp and 1 basic forest should be sufficient, because you have death rite shaman and abrupt decay to work around blood moon.
Krosan grip is OK, but I feel ancient grudge is strictly better. Ancient grudge is insane against the artifact heavy decks (that are popular in my meta), but its also very good with life from the loam (which tends to be good vs the artifact decks).
Abrupt Decay deals with most problematic enchantments. The only relevant enchantment I can think of that it doesn't answer is humility.
@beating RUG. This matchup seems pretty close. I find most of the games I lose revolve around getting wasteland / stifled and not being able to establish a man base. For this reason, I like to lower my curve by taking out blood braid elves. Hymn to Tourach is also dangerous if they have misdirection. Avoid finding forests so you can play around submerge.
/2 cents
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There's not really a reason other than having more of a good thing. I think I can fit the 4th Wasteland in my manabase so I do. I guess I could cut one for a basic Mountain, but haven't run into a situation where I've been locked out of red (yet) and Wasteland has always been pretty good for me (esp. against RUG/BUG decks).
I think you need to look up what strictly better means since it's not strictly better. Ancient Grudge first off doesn't destroy enchantments, which Krosan Grip does and even among artifacts, Krosan Grip can destroy Sensei's Divining Top before they can protect it. Those two scenarios alone make Ancient Grudge not strictly better.
I can understand that argument that Ancient Grudge is better for artifact destruction, but to use the term "strictly better" is incorrect here.
Your advice seems contradictory. You talk about losing because you get wastelanded out or can't establish a manabase, but then suggest not finding a basic forest (or what I presume is even Bayous)? Perhaps it was a typo, but I would think one of the first two things you should do against RUG is get your basic Swamp and basic Forest.
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